[OB] What is up with Mraize and Ialai?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Heh. Knowing the Alethi they would say "Blackthorn 2.0! What a wonderful day, lets follow him." Remember alethi worship strength and little else despite what they say.

Uhm. Yeah, look how Dalinar's legacy is helping him create unity right now...

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Uhm. Yeah, look how Dalinar's legacy is helping him create unity right now...

Those problems are outside of Alethkar. In WoK and WoR the Alethi kept saying they would not follow him because he had lost his touch and wasn't the Blackthorn any more.

[kari-no-sugata]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Uhm. Yeah, look how Dalinar's legacy is helping him create unity right now...

How to win friends and influence people... with a Shardblade.

 

Slightly off-topic, but with the return of Amaram... here's a thought: if he could undermine Kaladin it would help his reputation in return. And Kaladin just happened to suspiciously leave Urithiru just after Sadeas was killed to "spend more time with his family". And of course Kaladin is no fan of Sadeas and this should be fairly obvious. So, might Amaram try to frame Kaladin?

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 minute ago, kari-no-sugata said:

How to win friends and influence people... with a Shardblade.

 

Slightly off-topic, but with the return of Amaram... here's a thought: if he could undermine Kaladin it would help his reputation in return. And Kaladin just happened to suspiciously leave Urithiru just after Sadeas was killed to "spend more time with his family". And of course Kaladin is no fan of Sadeas and this should be fairly obvious. So, might Amaram try to frame Kaladin?

Thats entirely possible. But I doubt those claims would hold for long, specially with zero evidence. As soon as Kaladin's powers and restrictions become a bit more used it will be obvious accusing a Windrunner of assasination is as dumb as you can go. Kaladin even has trouble lying or twisting the truth because Syl doesn't like it. Granted, he can, but he didn't seem too comfortable doing it.

Nice 1st line, I should make a meme of it .

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Those problems are outside of Alethkar. In WoK and WoR the Alethi kept saying they would not follow him because he had lost his touch and wasn't the Blackthorn any more.

Ech. You're right. Completely forgot that. I really need to get more sleep...

Would still break Dalinar. He doesn't want his son to be the Blackthorn. Which is the point of all of this anyway. Use Adolin to hurt Dalinar.

5 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Slightly off-topic, but with the return of Amaram... here's a thought: if he could undermine Kaladin it would help his reputation in return. And Kaladin just happened to suspiciously leave Urithiru just after Sadeas was killed to "spend more time with his family". And of course Kaladin is no fan of Sadeas and this should be fairly obvious. So, might Amaram try to frame Kaladin?

Could see that happening. Probably with a bad ending for Amaram. Besides, Kaladin is a Knight Radiant, I don't see Amaram getting much support for this claim during Desolation times.

Edited October 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Blacksmithki]

14 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Ech. You're right. Completely forgot that. I really need to get more sleep...

Would still break Dalinar. He doesn't want his son to be the Blackthorn. Which is the point of all of this anyway. Use Adolin to hurt Dalinar.

Could see that happening. Probably with a bad ending for Amaram. Besides, Kaladin is a Knight Radiant, I don't see Amaram getting much support for this claim during Desolation times.

He all but admitted to it in front of Kaladin and Dalinar, two of the most powerful and influential people, and would be accusing one of the most honourable orders  of killing an old soldier after a drawn out fight with a knife through the eye despite having a shapeshifting shardblade and supernatural powers. Good odds he doesn't even bother and goes for someone else.

so yes I agree.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[kari-no-sugata]

24 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Thats entirely possible. But I doubt those claims would hold for long, specially with zero evidence. As soon as Kaladin's powers and restrictions become a bit more used it will be obvious accusing a Windrunner of assasination is as dumb as you can go. Kaladin even has trouble lying or twisting the truth because Syl doesn't like it. Granted, he can, but he didn't seem too comfortable doing it.

It'll take some years before the idea of a Windrunner assassinating sometime becomes implausible though.

 

Quote

Nice 1st line, I should make a meme of it .

 

24 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Ech. You're right. Completely forgot that. I really need to get more sleep...

I need more sleep too. This week has been terrible. That darn Everstorm

 

Quote

Could see that happening. Probably with a bad ending for Amaram. Besides, Kaladin is a Knight Radiant, I don't see Amaram getting much support for this claim during Desolation times.

Amaram wouldn't be targeting Dalinar's current allies so much as making a plausible sounding argument to Sadeas's allies. And to make things worse, Dalinar is now working on an international stage and the world doesn't trust him. It also doesn't help that Kaladin probably won't be coming back to Urithiru anytime soon (a few weeks at least). Even if Amaram has no direct evidence he can make some weasel-worded arguments that play well to the gallery. Consider the following:

1. Kaladin is officially darkeyed. That might not matter much for Dalinar but to others it does, particularly to people who matter.
2. Kaladin received a whole load of money for what would sound like a "weak" reason to others - to visit home.
3. Kaladin left the day of Sadeas's death, more or less.
4. Kaladin is a highly skilled fighter and as a Windrunner could easy move around. Given the uncertainty of Sadeas's time of death that would make it very hard for Kaladin to have a good alibi.
5. It would be easy to find people who would say that Kaladin hated Sadeas.
6. Kaladin has just gone "dark" (no longer sending reports).
7. Kaladin wouldn't be around to defend himself.

btw, it's clear that not everyone is happy with the return of the Radiants. This has been made clear several times already. There would be some who would be willing to believe a Radiant could be an assassin just based on their culture. And consider the abilities that the Assassin in White had... (Windrunner...)

I think such arguments would play very well to Sadeas's supporters. Even without any real evidence. It would put a lot of pressure on Dalinar to produce the real killer. And of course it would put a lot of pressure on Adolin.

Edited October 20, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Guest]

1 minute ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It would put a lot of pressure on Dalinar to produce the real killer. And of course it would put a lot of pressure on Adolin.

Huh... You're... right.

Plus, it would kinda play into the Vorin belief of the Radiant betrayal, putting pressure on the Radiants as a whole in which Ialai doesn't even have a stake, but Dalinar has - a big one actually. So, she wouldn't care about them.

I'll keep it in mind.

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Huh... You're... right.

Plus, it would kinda play into the Vorin belief of the Radiant betrayal, putting pressure on the Radiants as a whole in which Ialai doesn't even have a stake, but Dalinar has - a big one actually. So, she wouldn't care about them.

I'll keep it in mind.

Just in case you didn't notice since it wouldn't have been very obvious - I edited my post just before you posted to add something similar (the paragraph beginning "btw").

A few more thoughts on this theory:

1. The biggest weakness with Amaram pushing this argument right now is that most people think that the same killer was behind the copy-cat murder. It would be very hard to frame Kaladin for this. However, the info Shallan just got would nullify this "problem", ironically enough.
2. Kaladin's "best friend" Moash was behind a plot to kill Elhokar, and even Kaladin was involved for a time. That could easily come out. I'm sure those on Taravangian's side would like to make that happen.
3. Kaladin has just met a relatively important guy who could plausibly contact others through spanreed. If that guy spotted that Kaladin was with parshmen, then that would be very dangerous to Kaladin's reputation - ie he's not just gone "dark" he's travelling with Voidbringers and making no attempt to contact others even though he had the chance.
4. Amaram saw how Kaladin killed Helaran - by stabbing him through the eye. ie Kaladin has "previous" with stabbing lighteyed Shardbearers through the eye.

Sounds very plausible in retrospect! (Even though it's dead wrong)

I think it's likely that Shallan will find out that Kaladin was the one to kill Helaran in OB, but I had thought that this might not come out until Kaladin returns. However, if Amaram makes a big splash with the argument that Kaladin killed Sadeas then that aspect could come out. So Kaladin's image in Shallan's mind would take a hit and she might believe Kaladin was behind Sadeas's death as well. If the Moash and Elhokar assassination aspect comes out then even Dalinar might worry that he has misjudged Kaladin.

Imagine the pressure Adolin would be under if even people like Shallan and Dalinar suspect Kaladin could have been the one who killed Sadeas.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Shallan has made it abundantely clear she cares nothing if people are murderers. I admit the Helaran part may muddy the waters. Honestly though, the Helaran plot is for me the part I personally dislike the most of SA, so I have little patience for it. 

Kaladin has proved himself to Dalinar many times, and bluntly, Dalinar needs Kaladin way too much. 

[Guest]

I don't think, that Shallan or Dalinar would care too much for any of those allegations. Reasons were provided by @WhiteLeeopard

Adolin though... Kaladin and him have a budding friendship going and Kaladin kinda saved his and his brothers hides during the duel. I think, that could alone could provide plenty of pressure for him.

Edited October 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Blacksmithki]

16 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Just in case you didn't notice since it wouldn't have been very obvious - I edited my post just before you posted to add something similar (the paragraph beginning "btw").

A few more thoughts on this theory:

1. The biggest weakness with Amaram pushing this argument right now is that most people think that the same killer was behind the copy-cat murder. It would be very hard to frame Kaladin for this. However, the info Shallan just got would nullify this "problem", ironically enough.
2. Kaladin's "best friend" Moash was behind a plot to kill Elhokar, and even Kaladin was involved for a time. That could easily come out. I'm sure those on Taravangian's side would like to make that happen.
3. Kaladin has just met a relatively important guy who could plausibly contact others through spanreed. If that guy spotted that Kaladin was with parshmen, then that would be very dangerous to Kaladin's reputation - ie he's not just gone "dark" he's travelling with Voidbringers and making no attempt to contact others even though he had the chance.
4. Amaram saw how Kaladin killed Helaran - by stabbing him through the eye. ie Kaladin has "previous" with stabbing lighteyed Shardbearers through the eye.

Sounds very plausible in retrospect! (Even though it's dead wrong)

I think it's likely that Shallan will find out that Kaladin was the one to kill Helaran in OB, but I had thought that this might not come out until Kaladin returns. However, if Amaram makes a big splash with the argument that Kaladin killed Sadeas then that aspect could come out. So Kaladin's image in Shallan's mind would take a hit and she might believe Kaladin was behind Sadeas's death as well. If the Moash and Elhokar assassination aspect comes out then even Dalinar might worry that he has misjudged Kaladin.

Imagine the pressure Adolin would be under if even people like Shallan and Dalinar suspect Kaladin could have been the one who killed Sadeas.

What is the timeline for when Kaladin left? Wasn't like the day before that murder? Also only the group that is opposed to Amaran knows Kaladin was involved in the plot to kill the king, to everyone else he is the one who saved him. To four, Amaran can't reveal that without in essence admiring his version of those events is false (he killed the assassin is what he claims) and even then that was before he developed magical powers, became a lighteyes and got a shapeshifting shardblade.

Also everything I mentioned a while ago.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[kari-no-sugata]

24 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Shallan has made it abundantely clear she cares nothing if people are murderers. I admit the Helaran part may muddy the waters. Honestly though, the Helaran plot is for me the part I personally dislike the most of SA, so I have little patience for it.

Shallan definitely cares about who killed Helaran, that's for sure. She considers Sadeas to be "crem" so I can't imagine her being that concerned about who killed him in the general sense, though obviously it would force her to re-evaluate Adolin when it comes out, but it's hard to predict how big a change that would be for her.

Edit: Just to be clear, I think that long-term Shallan would be able to get over Kaladin killing Helaran. It's not like Kaladin benefited from it - just the opposite.

 

Quote

 Kaladin has proved himself to Dalinar many times, and bluntly, Dalinar needs Kaladin way too much. 

I know. But I think people underestimate just how protective Dalinar is of Elhokar. If Moash testifies that Kaladin was genuinely involved with a plot to kill Elhokar, even if he stopped, then that is going to hurt. Dalinar cannot let that slide. I don't think that Dalinar would lose his trust of Kaladin in the end (particularly if/once he has a good understanding of the Windrunner Oaths) but for sure it's going to be hard if that bit with Elhokar comes out. Even without that, Dalinar would struggle to make a good defence - using the Windrunner Oaths would sound very dodgy to people who are not inclined to trust Radiants anyway.

Edited October 20, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Guest]

Just now, kari-no-sugata said:

I know. But I think people underestimate just how protective Dalinar is of Elhokar. If Moash testifies that Kaladin was genuinely involved with a plot to kill Elhokar, even if he stopped, then that is going to hurt. Dalinar cannot let that slide. I don't think that Dalinar would lose his trust of Kaladin in the end (particularly if/once he has a good understanding of the Windrunner Oaths) but for sure it's going to be hard if that bit with Elhokar comes out. Even without that, Dalinar would struggle to make a good defence - using the Windrunner Oaths would sound very dodgy to people who are not inclined to trust Radiants anyway.

Kaladin didn't just stop... He protected Elhokar. Elhokar himself will testify to that.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I know. But I think people underestimate just how protective Dalinar is of Elhokar. If Moash testifies that Kaladin was genuinely involved with a plot to kill Elhokar, even if he stopped, then that is going to hurt. Dalinar cannot let that slide. I don't think that Dalinar would lose his trust of Kaladin in the end (particularly if/once he has a good understanding of the Windrunner Oaths) but for sure it's going to be hard if that bit with Elhokar comes out. Even without that, Dalinar would struggle to make a good defence - using the Windrunner Oaths would sound very dodgy to people who are not inclined to trust Radiants anyway.

I don't think Moash would testify about the Elhokar murder though. He regrets his actions, and his betrayal, and I doubt he would want to hurt Kaladin even more after what he did at the end of WoR. It is possible that Graves tells Taravangian about everything though, and if Kaladin was confronted by Dalinar about the Elhokar murder, he would most likely admit his part in it. I have a hard time seeing Kaladin lying to Dalinar about anything really, and I think he would be honest about this. But if this becomes a big deal, it will most likely be Graves and Taravangians fault, and not Moashs. 

I do think that Elhokar would pardon Kaladin though, or at least argue for it. It would show growth for his character, and would also lead to Kaladin respecting him more. Remember, Elhokar never knew of Kaladins involvement with the murderers.

[Salkara]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

1. Kaladin is officially darkeyed. That might not matter much for Dalinar but to others it does, particularly to people who matter.

He has a shardblade/shardspear/Sylblade/whatever. That officially makes him a lighteyes of the 4th dahn.

[Blacksmithki]

7 minutes ago, Salkara said:

He has a shardblade/shardspear/Sylblade/whatever. That officially makes him a lighteyes of the 4th dahn.

At any moment at all he can turn his eyes light as well, according to bridge four, lighter then those of kings.

[kari-no-sugata]

24 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Kaladin didn't just stop... He protected Elhokar. Elhokar himself will testify to that.

I'm not sure Elhokar remembered it much.

If Dalinar finds out that Kaladin was involved with the assassination plot initially, he would definitely care about that.

 

23 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I don't think Moash would testify about the Elhokar murder though. He regrets his actions, and his betrayal, and I doubt he would want to hurt Kaladin even more after what he did at the end of WoR.

I agree it seems unlikely that Moash would testify about it.

 

23 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It is possible that Graves tells Taravangian about everything though, and if Kaladin was confronted by Dalinar about the Elhokar murder, he would most likely admit his part in it. I have a hard time seeing Kaladin lying to Dalinar about anything really, and I think he would be honest about this. But if this becomes a big deal, it will most likely be Graves and Taravangians fault, and not Moashs.

It'll be interesting to see what happens here.

 

23 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I do think that Elhokar would pardon Kaladin though, or at least argue for it. It would show growth for his character, and would also lead to Kaladin respecting him more. Remember, Elhokar never knew of Kaladins involvement with the murderers.

It would be really awesome for Elhokar if he argues with Dalinar about this and takes Kaladin's side. Would be a good moment I think.

 

9 minutes ago, Salkara said:

He has a shardblade/shardspear/Sylblade/whatever. That officially makes him a lighteyes of the 4th dahn.

Remember Amaram's "darkborn" comment? Some people care about such things.

[Salkara]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Remember Amaram's "darkborn" comment? Some people care about such things.

I didn't remember it, but from what I can find, he said it to Shallan while she was disguised as Veil. It will be interesting to see if he has the same opinion of a shardbearer. Not that he won't have animosity towards Kaladin but Amaram may not view him as a darkeyes anymore.

In any case, the point of yours which I was questioning was in regards to how charges brought against Kaladin by Amaram would be viewed. I'd say that Amaram is a different case. He may hold that a "darkborn" shardbearer isn't worth of the 4th dahn, but I don't think that will be a common sentiment. If Amaram accuses Kaladin, I think most of the Alethi nobility will see a full shardbearer challenging a Radiant who publicly claimed the shardbearer stole the blade and plate and think, "Maybe let's skip this one. Let's see how it pans out before picking a side."

[maxal]

I can't comment on everyone because this would take too much time: I was surprised to see the topic buzzing with activity today. I have re-reading Sadeas's viewpoints lately and I thought the following conclusions can be made:

1) Sadeas's end goal was to destroy Dalinar. Him of all people seem to adhere to the mentality of the strongest needs to rule: if he was pleased in following Gavilar, he isn't pleased in following weakening Dalinar. Being an opportunist, he may have seen an opening to insert himself and claim the kingdom as his. So yes, Sadeas most definitely wanted Dalinar out.

2) Sadeas was petty, jealous and envious. He was openly jealous of young Adolin being a Rhysadium ridding full Shardbearer at the tender age of 22. Him, whom had fought the conquest, whom had help overthrowing kingdoms never managed to earn himself a Blade, despite obvious fighting skills. 

3) Sadeas may have been cunning, but his pettiness got in the way. By re-reading his viewpoints, one thing stood out: Sadeas did not only want to remove Dalinar, he wanted to gloat, to see him defeated, to beat him and to watch him squirm as he throws the final blow.

4) If Sadeas was content with a quick death on the battle field earlier on, within the story, having been trapped into the 4 on 1 duel changed his perspective. He wanted to hurt Dalinar before killing him.

5) Sadeas has been gunning for Adolin since early in WoR. He saw him as an easy way to harm his father. I don't think he planned to have Adolin turn into another Blackthorn, I think he settled on hurting, really hurting, Adolin when he started to think the son could grow into the father. Before, he was just content to watch the boy embarrass himself and potentially lose his Shards. Now, it is personal.

6) I remain unconvinced the target for the bridge dropping assassination really was Dalinar. He may have been the secondary target, but the timing of the drop combined with Sadeas's viewpoint right before makes me doubt.

7) Sadeas has been purposefully taunting Adolin by telling him how he would kill his entire family: he did it twice. His tactic was likely to get the youth to over-react and do something stupid he could pin on him. It backfired and he was killed instead.

8) Ialai is likely aware of every single one of her husbands thoughts on the matter.

9) I do think Ialai was speaking of Adolin the entire time during her monologue, but she couldn't directly incriminate him. She has no proof. The meeting was meant for her to gauge Adolin's reaction, to see which buttons she'd need to push to see him react. If she is half as smart as her reputation says she is, then she'd know young Adolin is a very reactive young man when emotionally comprised. This was her target.

10) What Adolin said is not really relevant, what is relevant is he snapped and reacted. While this is no proof, it may be enough for Ialai to mentally confirm her hypothesis and to keep on looking towards Adolin for the culprit.

11) What is Amaram doing being mixed into all of this? I have no idea, but he has a reputation to clean up and a score to settle with the Kholins. If he can discredit them, then he can save himself. If he attacks Dalinar's honor, then his word won't be worth much next to his.

12) Amaram may be trying to pin the murder on Kaladin to prove him an unreliable bad person, a liar and as this clean up his reputation. It would however be very difficult to pull off. I am not convinced he would try to attack Adolin... even if he may be Ialai's prime suspect. Then again, Kaladin may also be too much of a big fish to snare now and Amaram may seek vengeance towards Dalinar and not Kaladin. Kaladin, he probably does not blame for ratting him out.

13) The question we need answering is who Amaram would wish to see fall the most and why? How does it benefit him? 

And finally, when will Adolin's secret come out? Will Kaladin tell the truth and the assassination attempt? I personally think he will settle it clean and I do think it will not be held against him as he did save Elhokar. 

[Toaster Retribution]

@maxal I doubt Amaram is looking for vengeance. He is a zealot, and what matters most to him the Sons of Honor. He isn't petty like Sadeas. He will defenitely attempt to fix his reputation, and end up in a position of power, but I don't think he will spend time fighting the Kholins or Kaladin unless it benefits his end goal.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal I doubt Amaram is looking for vengeance. He is a zealot, and what matters most to him the Sons of Honor. He isn't petty like Sadeas. He will defenitely attempt to fix his reputation, and end up in a position of power, but I don't think he will spend time fighting the Kholins or Kaladin unless it benefits his end goal.

You are right he doesn't seem the vengeful type. He is however in a situation where Dalinar formally accused him of having stolen his Shardblade and unjustly turn a man into slavery. My thoughts were he would try to settle this, to either get Dalinar to back on the accusations or attack his credibility in a way such as no one believes him. They have no proof of Amaram's treason which means any trial bond to happen would be weighting Amaram's words against Kaladin/Dalinar's. It will come down to whom people more readily believe. 

As such I can definitely see his interests ally with Ialai in finding a culprit, one which would harm Dalinar's side. I am undecided as if Amaram would prefer attacking himself to Kaladin or Adolin. Kaladin seems the most logical choice as it is his fault his secret came out, but then again Amaram didn't seem to blame Kaladin for speaking, he blamed himself for not having killed him. Those two characters have however has an "unfinished story" which is why I am reluctant to think Amaram would go down the "Adolin is guilty" path.

[kari-no-sugata]

Part of me feels that I shouldn't continue with my theory that Amaram will publicly accuse Kaladin of being behind Sadeas's murder... because it's just too plausible and that I could spoil things for others. I don't feel this way about my theories particularly often, yet I've been dead wrong in the past in similar cases so I'm going to continue.

It's hard trying to get into Amaram's mind but he could be considered a religious fanatic as he wants to Heralds to return in glory and is willing to do some very shady things in order to achieve that. I'm not sure what he really thinks about the Knights Radiant - he agreed to go along with Dalinar hanging a Radiant cape around him but privately I think he didn't like the idea. Traditionally, Vorinism blames the Radiants for their betrayal and venerates the Heralds. Either way, by Dalinar becoming a Radiant (a villain in a traditional Vorin sense) and so obviously going against Vorin tradition and claiming that the Almighty is dead is probably not going to go down well with Amaram. I suspect he would see Dalinar as both a traitor to Vorinism and a competitor. If he's willing to come back publicly that pretty much automatically makes him an antagonist to Dalinar. To achieve his goals, Amaram would need to undermine and replace Dalinar politically, socially and religiously.

If Amaram is going to guess at someone having killed Sadeas and use that to undermine Dalinar then by the very nature of the problem he would have no proof. Maybe he has some real evidence and maybe not. But if we assume he has no direct evidence then I think it's unlikely that he would go after Adolin. I think this should be fairly obvious - Adolin is well known and definitely does not have the sort of personality or public image where people would be inclined to believe that Adolin could be the killer. As an in-world argument, it fails the "smell test", as it were. I think it's dangerous to assume that just because we know that Adolin is the killer that everyone would reach the same conclusion. If Amaram is going to publicly accuse someone without real evidence (I'm sure he'll suggest that any real evidence has been covered up) then it's much more of a political attack. In other words, it has to sound plausible and Adolin being the killer would not sound plausible. Also, a political attack is more effective if it is hard to refute. If one person accuses another of something and no decent arguments are offered in return then that is an effective attack even if the accuser has no real evidence. In political circles, it's often suggested to "define" your opponents before they can define themselves (in the public mind). Adolin is already defined, so real evidence would be needed to accuse him and for it to stick.

I have suggested Renarin before as being a possible target as well. He's basically the sort of kid that bullies would pick on. However, thinking about it some more he would also likely fail the "smell test" - he's too well known for being weak etc. While he might be a bit creepy in many people's eyes, I don't think many people would consider him to be the sort of person to stab Sadeas in the eye.

This leads us to Kaladin. I've suggested a long list of circumstantial evidence before and I'm not going to repeat that. I'm not sure how many of those points will come up in the book if my theory is correct though - some certainly, though probably not all. The biggest advantage with politically attacking Kaladin though is that he is "undefined" - people know of him but not really much about him. He would be publicly known for jumping into the duelling arena to help Adolin but he might be remembered more for what he did at the end that got him arrested by Elhokar. It's also extremely convenient that Kaladin is away. That means that it's up to Dalinar and co to offer a defence on his behalf. If they struggle with that then they would be losing the argument.

To quote from chapter 22:

Quote

“History is rife with examples of soldiers assuming orders when there were none,” Ialai said. “I agree that Dalinar would never knife an old friend in dark quarters. His soldiers may not be so inhibited. You want to know who did this, Adolin Kholin? Look among your own ranks. I would wager the princedom that somewhere in the Kholin army is a man who thought to do his highprince a service.”

Kaladin would fit that oh-so-well. I wouldn't be surprised if Amaram privately believes this to be true as well, or at least that it is likely. It would be easy enough to find people who would say that Kaladin has a bad attitude and so on. It would be easier to define him as the bad guy than probably anybody else.

To be clear about one thing: this is politics. I'm not saying that "everyone" would agree with Amaram or anything like that. Maybe not even a majority. More like "this will make things politically difficult for Dalinar". Actually, I'm sure that some would never believe Amaram's accusations or think that they're worth bothering with. However, unless Dalinar can offer a good defence then he'll struggle politically. The best defence would be to find the real killer, obviously.

It's also possible that Dalinar would argue for a "duel" over this - a classical knightly duel over reputation. And of course, Adolin would be the one to fight for Kaladin's reputation. Which would be rather ironic as Adolin would be 100% convinced that Kaladin wasn't the killer... but would he be able to fight properly knowing that it was him that was guilty instead?

If the story does go down this path then the longer this situation continues for the more pressure it would put on Adolin to come clean.

And then one day Kaladin opens the portal in Alethkar, returns to Urithiru and points out the big bad Voidbringer army that's about to attack and then wonders why everyone is looking at him funny...

[maxal]

Great theory @kari-no-sugata, you make very convincing points in favor of Amaram trying to blame Kaladin for the murder.

The most important counter-argument, in my eyes, would be the near impossibility to carry on any accusation towards Kaladin. He can't be trialed, he can't be executed, he can't be judged, he can't be condemned: there isn't much the legal system can do to punish Kaladin unless he is willing to go forth and accept his guilt, which he is obviously never going to do as he is innocent. You also can't fight Kaladin in a duel and hope to win or disarm him: unless he subjects himself to it, he is definitely standing above the law, not in the sense the law shouldn't apply to him, more in the sense they literally have no foreseeable means to enforce any sentences being passed on Kaladin. They could exile him, but he'd leave with his men: exiling him could lead to massive desertion within the Kholin ranks and it would create an army outside of Alethi control, an army made up of Radiants and their squires.

I can't seen anyone wanting to go down this route.

Hence, while I do believe it is extraordinarily easy to put the blame on Kaladin, seeing he isn't there to speak for himself, seeing he is a dark figure people do not know much of, seeing he looks dangerous and apt for the job not to forget he once was Sadeas's slave: I would think a smart individual would know this is a dead end. What's the purpose of accusing Kaladin if the sentence cannot be passed on? It would discredit Dalinar by some small margin, but then again Ialai already agreed Dalinar is unlikely behind the murder. Blaming Kaladin equals blaming a rogue agent from the Kholin forces and if Dalinar rapidly disengage himself from Kaladin, then the harm is rather limited. Kaladin is notoriously not a prone to obey soldier, people will readily believe he acted on his own. He also cannot be blame for any copycat murder. Thus I think the damage done to the Kholins would be... minimal, unless Amaram blames Kaladin in hopes Adolin will come forth.

On the reverse, blaming Adolin does a great deal of damage to Dalinar. Kaladin may be a Radiant, but he isn't occupying any non-replaceable position within Dalinar's army. He isn't in a position of leadership so high losing him would hamper the workings of the princedom whereas Adolin is the one man Dalinar relies on for things to move forward. People wouldn't readily believe Dalinar is not behind the assassination with his son being the culprit ad people will be quick to believe Adolin also murdered the other people, thanks to his father's past deeds. Of course, accusing Adolin will require proof which is honestly easy to get: the mark on the wall, the fact Adolin has been alone for a long time right at the time Sadeas was seen alive at the same time, the fact his searching party was in the area, the feud he has with him. If someone is clever, they could also get the cleaning people to comment on his ruined uniform which is no doubt hiding blood stains even if very small.

Adolin, they can punish, trial, execute or exiled. They can duel and have realistic expectations of perhaps winning, if Amaram proves to own the missing Honorblade or if they find his match. Attacking Adolin would harm, hamper and destroy Dalinar in a more surer, definite way than any accusations being made towards Kaladin. It also allows for Ialai to get vengeance in a much more satisfying way, so while Amaram himself may not be looking for it, he is working with Ialai whom surely wishes for it.

Hence, while a very strong case can be made for Amaram blaming Kaladin, I think it isn't a smart move coming from cunning people as the best and most effective way to attack and discredit Dalinar is to attack the weakest link he never wanted to admit: his own son. 

[Dahak]

On 19/10/2017 at 9:38 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

Unless Ialai has some real evidence I think her only real hope is to get Adolin to publicly admit that he threatened to kill Sadeas previously (in WoR).

Adolin still has that pending duel with Sadeas after the duel He, Renarin and Kaladin took on four shardbearers.

All Adolin, probably the greatest duelist alive, needs to do to get Sadeas in range of his shardblade is wait. People do sometimes die in duels.