WhiteLeeopard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, SLNC said: Yeah, that would have worked, if she would have kept Veil as her sole Ghostblood persona. Now she has used it to help Adolin, which, combined with their betrothal, could set off some red flags for Mraize. Loyalty is incredibly important, when dealing in secret societies. Any sign of future disloyalty really lets her value for Mraize plummet - Radiant or not. Quote “You are one of us,” Mraize said. “We look after our own.” Shallan frowned. “But you’ve seen through the lie.” (Talk of brothers) “No blackmail,” Mraize said. “They will arrive safe. A gift to you. You may wait upon my words and see. I mention your debt only so that it has a chance to find . . . purchase in your mind.” She frowned, holding her Shardblade, wavering. “Why?” she finally asked. “Because, you are ignorant.” Mraize stepped closer to her, towering over her. “You don’t know who we are. You don’t know what we’re trying to accomplish. You don’t know much of anything at all, Veil. Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers? I have done some research, you see. I have answers for you.” Surprisingly, he turned from her and walked toward the doorway. “I will give you time to consider. You seem to think that your newfound place among the Radiants makes you unfit for our numbers, but I see it differently, as does my babsk. Let Shallan Davar be a Radiant, conformist and noble. Let Veil come to us.” He stopped by the doorway. “And let her find truth.” Words of Radiance. I really doubt Mraize would do a 180 from this conversation to now. He wants Shallan, and he thinks Shallan and Veil can be the same person and be loyal to the KR and the GB in each persona without having opposing goals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted October 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, SLNC said: Yeah, right. Out of sheer goodwill. Mraize. It is a device for leverage. Nothing else. I think he did it to show Shallan goodwill, yes. The Ghostbloods are an organization built on loyalty, just as you said. You get loyalty by showing goodwill, and by acting kindly toward your followers, like Kelsier for example. I think Mraize runs his organization in a similar manner, and I think he was honest when he told Shallan that he would give her brothers to her for free. Does he do it because he is a kind person, or because he likes Shallan? No, probably not. He does it because he wants her loyalty. But I think he realizes that using leverage is a bad way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfax Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 While Mraize's motives have never been clear, he has always shown, so far, to be as good as his word. He's not stupid enough to out Shallan in front of someone like Ialai if he thinks there's a remote chance that person (Shallan) is part of his organization. Personally, I think Veil tossing around the GB symbol could be an indicator to Mraize that she's comfortable as Veil being aligned with them and it may look to be in her favor. Mraize wouldn't act against that after all he's done to reign her in. He will wait, see how this plays out, and come to Shallan in private to tell her if what she is doing is wrong or right for the GB and tell her how to behave in regards to it. Her response will then tell him how to act next. IF the GB are behind the killings, and IF Ialai is somehow part of or affiliated with the GB, it will be an interesting meeting because there's no way the term GB will be used with Adolin in the room if it means outing members. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Yeah. Her use of the Ghostbloods symbol won't be an issue. She was chasing truth. The very thing she said she was doing before and after their offer to join. Her loyalty isn't in question. She been given no tasks. She been given know instructions. She was hunting truth and nothing more, and her use of the symbol was just saying who she was, which at this point is not a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) If I may add, it would appear that @SLNC is saying that Shallen's actions in her investigation were disloyal to the ghostbloods, and honestly, I don't see how, it's not like the've told her to not investigate or to not help Adolin. @SLNC if you arn't saying that please say so, you would appear to be implying such very directly. Edit: double ninja'd seconds before I was going to post Edited October 10, 2017 by Blacksmithki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said: "Let Veil come to us.” He stopped by the doorway. “And let her find truth.” Which is exactly the opposite of what she showed in the pub. I mean, as far as he is concerned Shallan used her Veil identity and the GB symbol to help Adolin. 14 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: But I think he realizes that using leverage is a bad way to go. Only as long as he sees the possibility of her joining. @Blacksmithki No, what I'm saying is that she gives the impression, that she uses Veil against the GB, by using her to help Adolin. Of course, all of this is dependent on my theory being true. It could be completely wrong. Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfax Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, SLNC said: I mean, as far as he is concerned Veil used the GB symbol to help Adolin. This could be true, but only if Mraize is aware that Adolin killed Sadeas. WE know he did, but we should be careful in treating this as in-world knowledge. Mraize and/or Ialai *knowing* Adolin killed Sadeas is also only theoretical at this point. Not poking holes, the theory is interesting, just want to be careful with distinctions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted October 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) @SLNC I´ll guess we will see soon (next week hopefully). My personal theory is that Mraize will just stand there and appear as an ally/spymaster/bodyguard/servant to Ialai during the meeting, and add tension to the scene. This will tell us (and Shallan) that Mraize is controlling Ialai. I doubt much else will come out of the scene (except for Ialai/Adolin interactions) but it will build up the Ghostblood arc in this book. I just wanted to voice my sincere doubt about one point in your otherwise well-crafted theory. Edited October 10, 2017 by Toaster Retribution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 @SLNC Okay, thanks, I understand, but I must say that Mraize wouldn't move against her for helping Adolin in a way that was unknowingly against the GBs, he would most likely force her to cease, then possibly move against her. But yes he could very much move against Shallen should she continue to help Adolin then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) I might have gone a bit overboard in my enthusiasm, I'll remove the last paragraph. Edit: No, the more I think about it, it was too speculative. Sorry. Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 I don't see why the GB will give two hoots that Adolin killed Sadeas. If they are getting involved it is likely to take advantage of the power vacuum Adolin accidentally created. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Just now, WhiteLeeopard said: I don't see why the GB will give two hoots that Adolin killed Sadeas. If they are getting involved it is likely to take advantage of the power vacuum Adolin accidentally created. Like I said, simply because Ialai might have called in a favor or two. I wouldn't put it past her to have connections to the GB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) I'm not going to be convinced Ialai and Sadeas were part of any society until I see definitive undeniable on-screen proof. Ialai and Sadeas are/were just too self-centered, too greedy, and too controlling to ever become a part of anything that they weren't personally leading (since Gavilar died). Much less to have any greater goals other than their own wealth and prestige. Also, they always considered Dalinar to be their main rival. If they had been aware of the societies running around Roshar they would have likely acted differently. Either not so much tunnel vision on Dalinar, or more plays to gain allies or power. Edited October 10, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said: I'm not going to be convinced Ialai and Sadeas were part of any society until I see definitive undeniable on-screen proof. Ialai and Sadeas are/were just too self-centered, too greedy, and too controlling to ever become a part of anything that they weren't personally leading (since Gavilar died). Much less to have any greater goals other than their own wealth and prestige. Also, they always considered Dalinar to be their main rival. If they had been aware of the societies running around Roshar they would have likely acted differently. Either not so much tunnel vision on Dalinar, or more plays to gain allies or power. They don't have to be part of the organization to call in favors owed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfax Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 To be fair, Ialai doesn't even have to know the GB exist to still be in acquaintance with Mraize and call in favors or employ him in some fashion or whatever. Her being affiliated is just a theory right now. He could just be some dude with connections to the underworld element for all she knows. Cant' wait to see how this plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 @WhiteLeeopard To add to what @SLNC said considering how often the sadeas' use information and spy networks and how well known the ghostbloods seem to be, it would be more likly then not that they have connections though I agree they are unlikely to be part of the ghostbloods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Connections maybe, but not full affiliation, and probably not full knowledge of what the GB are/do either. Or any other society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said: Connections maybe, but not full affiliation, and probably not full knowledge of what the GB are/do either. Or any other society. Where did I even suggest that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Just now, SLNC said: Where did I even suggest that? Nowhere, I'm just making my beliefs and position clear . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Just now, WhiteLeeopard said: Nowhere, I'm just making my beliefs and position clear . Well, you were arguing against me, so I'm naturally curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 minute ago, SLNC said: Well, you were arguing against me, so I'm naturally curious... I think we've strayed a bit, thats why the confusion. I disagree with you that Mraize is immediately going to destroy Shallan. I think he will either be neutral or trying to help her at this stage. Maybe pressuring her a bit, but not making a full negative move. On the rest (Ialai calling in a favor or something similar) I kind of agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said: I think we've strayed a bit, thats why the confusion. I disagree with you that Mraize is immediately going to destroy Shallan. I think he will either be neutral or trying to help her at this stage. Maybe pressuring her a bit, but not making a full negative move. On the rest (Ialai calling in a favor or something similar) I kind of agree with you. Alright. Yes, I've kinda revised my opinion on Mraize. I got caught up in speculation. He will spook Shallan though. Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) I think that this is less interconnected than it seems. Whatever his role in Ialai's spy network, or the Sadeas chain of command, I think that this is the public face of Mraize that we're about to meet. Mraize, the Ghostblood, the man running the meetings, has to have a public life, even if it's based on a false identity. I think this is going to be the identity that he's lived during his "work hours" for years. Edit: this is my option 2 Edited October 10, 2017 by Calderis 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Calderis said: I think that this is less interconnected than it seems. Whatever his role in Ialai's spy network, or the Sadeas chain of command, I think that this is the public face of Mraize that we're about to meet. Mraize, the Ghostblood, the man running the meetings, has to have a public life, even if it's based on a false identity. I think this is going to be the identity that he's lived during his "work hours" for years. Edit: this is my option 2 Maybe, although some like Iyatil are not likely to have a public face. She may refuse to take off mask due to cultural reasons. Maybe Mraize's public face is just as a powerful crime boss, important enough to dabble around powerful lighteyes. Considering Shallan and Adolin were 1h late, and it was just meant to be Adolin that means...no clue ^^. GB are just hard to predict. Edited October 10, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) Ialai is Fain. And therefore a red herring. Mraize is Demandared. And will only be peripheral until the very end of the story. Edited October 10, 2017 by IllNsickly Incomplete thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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