[OB] Oathbringer chapters 19-21

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

52 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

She is a descendant from the Southern Scadrials. The mask is a dead give away after BoM.

Here is a WoB about Iyatil:

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So what planet is she [Iyatil] from?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, that's kind of a hard thing to say. She has three planets she's "from". For example, she's living now on Roshar, but then she's from a different planet, but that's not the planet that her people are from.

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So there was a mass exodus to that planet?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not exactly. If you were to find a Japanese American, where would they say that they are from? Her people did not have a mass exodus.

 

 

So, to clarify, she is descended from a So. Scadrian group but that group lives on another world (not Roshar). There is another WoB that hints that Iyatil, and her people, are living on wherever Silverlight is.

 

[Salkara]

8 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Here is a WoB about Iyatil:

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So what planet is she [Iyatil] from?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, that's kind of a hard thing to say. She has three planets she's "from". For example, she's living now on Roshar, but then she's from a different planet, but that's not the planet that her people are from.

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So there was a mass exodus to that planet?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not exactly. If you were to find a Japanese American, where would they say that they are from? Her people did not have a mass exodus.

 

 

So, to clarify, she is descended from a So. Scadrian group but that group lives on another world (not Roshar). There is another WoB that hints that Iyatil, and her people, are living on wherever Silverlight is.

 

Question

Does Silverlight exist solely in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

link

 

Silverlight is in the CR, no idea where in the CR though.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

5 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Question

Does Silverlight exist solely in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

link

 

Silverlight is in the CR, no idea where in the CR though.

The middle of the Cosmere would make sense. If not, probably around the Taldain-Roshar-Scadrial area. Most planets we have seen are in that edge of the Cosmere. I doubt they are in the area with the Scar, considering that Yolen might be around there, and Khriss hasn't found it yet.

[Aminar]

22 hours ago, Andy92 said:

Even though I know where you're coming from, I disagree that the parshman asked the wrong question. Because in these chapters Kaladin is surprised at how Alethi-like that are, as if being like the Alethi is what makes them worthy creatures. 

You may say humans gave the parshmen a chance at survival because they weren't able to care for themselves. But the only reason they couldn't care for themselves was because of something the humans did to them. It would be the equivalent of crippling someone and then telling them "well at least I'm feeding you, you'd starve without me." 

But I'm somewhat getting off track. The reason I loved that quote was because of the real-world implications. "A lot of slave owners were nice to their slaves. Gave them meals and a bed to sleep in." Doesn't change the fact that they were forced into slavery in the first place. 

I'd agree, except that the severing wasn't done to enslave the Listeners. It was done to end a war in which they were enslaved by voidspren, in such a way where genocide wasn't necessary. Which gets just all kinds of morally complicated. Real life slavery just isn't an analogue for the situation. The unreal aspects twist the morality in some real weird places. The closest thing I can come up with is, How do you feel about the end of Shaun of the Dead. Is putting Zombies to work ok in a post apocalyptic environment? Because that was the situation. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Aminar

[Pattern he/him]

On 12.10.2017 at 2:08 PM, Starla said:

Do we know for certain that a female cannot be a Highprince in Alethkar? If anyone were to try it, I think it would be Ialai. Sadeas does not have a male heir and I can't see her handing it off to someone outside the family. She was sitting on a throne in this scene, so she is already projecting herself as a leader. 

We don't know anything about inheritance laws in Alethkar, as far as I am aware (see further down in the thread, we know quite a bit). What you say is definitely true and even in European history there have been females assuming the inheritance dispite being not able to do so by law. This usually led to various problems, though.

If Ialai has the loyalties of the Sadeas soldiers, her taking the power in the Highprincedom is quite likely. If she lacks that support, things will get interesting. 

Edit: Inheritance law in Alethkar is male, Laral wasn't able to inherit the lordship over Hearthstone when Wistiow died, Roshone was sent as new citylord instead.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Pattern

[Calderis he/him]

Alethi Inheritance laws are all male. 

Jasnah is older then Elhokar. Additionally, the line of succession after Elhokar went to Elhokar's son, Dalinar, then Adolin, though Dalinar is probably removed from that list though. 

That said though, becoming Highprince is all about consolidation of power and get others to agree to your position through alliance and/or threats. 

It may be unprecedented, but all Ialai really has to do is completely upset Gender roles and get people to agree she's in charge. 

[BlackYeti he/him]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Alethi Inheritance laws are all male. 

Jasnah is older then Elhokar. Additionally, the line of succession after Elhokar went to Elhokar's son, Dalinar, then Adolin, though Dalinar is probably removed from that list though.

Looking at history though, those kinds of gender-based inheritance laws will allow a woman to inherit when there is no male heir (at least when it comes to the aristocracy). Consider the English monarchy, it has exactly those kind of laws in place, yet still ended up producing a Lady Jane Grey, Queen Mary I, Queen Elizabeth I, Queen Mary II,  Queen Victoria, and Queen Elizabeth II.

I don't think it's been made clear what would happen in Alethkar in such a situation, but if anyone could force the issue, I reckon it would be Ialai.

[Nymeros]

Yes Ialai, yessssss; welcome back to the party! Just a few days more until we finally get some of her thoughts and plans.

 

Quote

Shubreth-son-Mashalan

Huh.....the man responsible for the Shin Invasions?

 

Could someone tell me how old Dalinar is?

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Nymeros

[Wreith he/him]

12 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Could someone tell me how old Dalinar is?

Dalinar is "in his fifties" per WoK ch69

[Nymeros]

Vague. I was curious as to whether he was in his late or early 20s here. He must have been young as all hell when he helped conquer Kholinar.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Nymeros

[Wreith he/him]

8 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Vague. I was curious as to whether he was in his late or early 20s here. He must have been going as all he'll when he helped conquer Kholinar.

Wasn't thinking about what thread I was in lol

Yes, I believe somewhere it says he was 20 when he bonded Oathbringer, so not too long after that here. I'll see if I can find the actual reference

WoK ch13 "...bonding to it when he was twenty weepings old"

Edited October 13, 2017 by Wreith
reference

[Nymeros]

13 minutes ago, Wreith said:

Wasn't thinking about what thread I was in lol

Yes, I believe somewhere it says he was 20 when he bonded Oathbringer, so not too long after that here. I'll see if I can find the actual reference

WoK ch13 "...bonding to it when he was twenty weepings old"

Thank you! So Dalinar was 22 when he met Evi, only 19 during the momentum chapter where he recruited the enemy sniper, and younger still when he and Gavilar conquered Kholinar and he tracked down his masters masters master. Noted

 

Also, that's ours him at roughly 53-4 ish years old now.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Nymeros

[Pattern he/him]

14 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

Looking at history though, those kinds of gender-based inheritance laws will allow a woman to inherit when there is no male heir (at least when it comes to the aristocracy). Consider the English monarchy, it has exactly those kind of laws in place, yet still ended up producing a Lady Jane Grey, Queen Mary I, Queen Elizabeth I, Queen Mary II,  Queen Victoria, and Queen Elizabeth II.

This is true for Great Britain, in continental Europe, where Salian law was applied for a very long time (~510 - 1991), this did not happen until quite recently (this was also the reason why the Personal Union between Great Britain and Hannover ended when Victoria became Queen of Great Britain but was not able to inherit the kingdom Hannover). The last countries to change that law were Belgium and Norway in 1991.

While Jasnah might have been ruled out because there was a male heir (Elhokar), Laral was not able to inherit the lordship over Hearthstone and Roshone was sent as a replacement (who she then married).
So, Ialai will have to work hard to stay in a place of power - which I think she is quite capable of. She is not the type to be intimidated by gender roles.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Pattern

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

I think if Ialia gets the support of her princedom she can be highprince. 

Quote

“I am highprince here, Dalinar,” the woman said. “In this arena, my word is the only law, granted me by the authority of the king.” - Brightness Istow  - WOR ch. 56

 

 

[Blacksmithki]

47 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I think if Ialia gets the support of her princedom she can be highprince. 

 

 

The usage of highprince there is used as a reference to a position of power relevant to the conversation (as opposed to "king") Dalinar attempted to use his position as highprince to end the dual and she replied that she was the one in charge in the way you quoted.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

12 hours ago, Pattern said:

Laral was not able to inherit the lordship over Hearthstone and Roshone was sent as a replacement (who she then married).

Laral was still considered a child as well, I believe.

[maxal she/her]

10 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I think if Ialia gets the support of her princedom she can be highprince. 

About being named Highprince, Brandon did explain some on how the process worked a while back on Reddit. What he said is to be named Highprince, you just needed to convinced  other people call you Highprince. In shorts, your powers and your ranks is linked to others accepting to give it to you. So while sons generally inherit of their father's titles, anyone can challenge a Highprince. Gavilar Kholin once did when he took over the princedome. Of course, we can guess a well respected, well loved, powerful family will not get challenged all too often, but power is built in Alethkar in ways where it can be contested.

Nothing is ever said of women being named Highprince, so while highly unconventional, if the Sadeas Brightlords endorse Ialai and name her Highprince, then she can very well be... the next Highprince. Of course, there is the matter of inheritance. The Sadeas House is old and powerful, surely there is an heir somewhere even if he is not Torol's direct son. As such Ialai could take her sweet time to choose which one shall inherit after her: no doubt she and Torol had thought of an heir. The Brightlords would not been keen to change the Sadeas princedom to "another" princedom, not for such an ancient and powerful princedom.

Thus, Ialai may very well have gotten the support she needed to be Highprince even if she is a woman, even if it is not usually done. She is smart, she is cunning, the Brightlords surely respected her and it may be preferable to have her rule over and have her choose a heir among the younger Sadeas then go into a warring period where all of them try for the Highprince seat.

[Pattern he/him]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Laral was still considered a child as well, I believe.

This would not matter considering inheritance laws. She would have inherited, if it were possible, and a steward would have been instated to take care of the administration until Laral had become of age.

The fact that a replacement was sent, indicates strongly that inheritance goes only the male line - traditionally.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Thus, Ialai may very well have gotten the support she needed to be Highprince even if she is a woman, even if it is not usually done. She is smart, she is cunning, the Brightlords surely respected her and it may be preferable to have her rule over and have her choose a heir among the younger Sadeas then go into a warring period where all of them try for the Highprince seat.

With Torol having been in his mid fifties I think there would be already a new generation of nephews who might not want to wait until Ialai determines an heir (if there aren't one or more brothers who would be next in line of succession). A lack of an heir in Earth history was usually followed by succession stuggles/wars, I find it very hard to imagine the very competitive Alethi society would not bring forth such.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Pattern

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

With Torol having been in his mid fifties I think there would be already a new generation of nephews who might not want to wait until Ialai determines an heir (if there aren't one or more brothers who would be next in line of succession). A lack of an heir in Earth history was usually followed by succession stuggles/wars, I find it very hard to imagine the very competitive Alethi society would not bring forth such.

But Ialai might have alliances and strengths which would prevent the nephews from attempting to over-throw her. As Brandon explained, a Highprince earns his name by having other endorse him. If all of the Sadeas's brightlords endorse Ialai and none endorse some random nephew, then it is a done deal. You can't conquer a princedom without an armed force, so it may be no nephew has the capacity to fight for it, not without any of the Brightlord's support.

[BlackYeti he/him]

36 minutes ago, maxal said:

But Ialai might have alliances and strengths which would prevent the nephews from attempting to over-throw her. As Brandon explained, a Highprince earns his name by having other endorse him. If all of the Sadeas's brightlords endorse Ialai and none endorse some random nephew, then it is a done deal. You can't conquer a princedom without an armed force, so it may be no nephew has the capacity to fight for it, not without any of the Brightlord's support.

Not to mention that Ialai apparently has a veritable army of assassins at her command. I could easily imagine a number of potential contenders suddenly suffering from a plague of inexplicable and fatal, accidents and illnesses.

[Guest]

Ialai is just plain dangerous and I think, that she easily gets underestimated in her reach and ability.

damnation, I can't wait for Tuesday.

Edited October 14, 2017 by SLNC

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, BlackYeti said:

Not to mention that Ialai apparently has a veritable army of assassins at her command. I could easily imagine a number of potential contenders suddenly suffering from a plague of inexplicable and fatal, accidents and illnesses.

Good points. Said nephews must know how to behave and instead try to curry favor to be named "heir".

[kari-no-sugata]

Any bets on Ialai surviving the book? I'd say no.

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Any bets on Ialai surviving the book? I'd say no.

I hope so, she is so interesting 

[Aminar]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

I hope so, she is so interesting 

Not to mention how interesting she would be as an antagonistic ally. Or a rival to Jasnah.