Sadeas the Swordsman

[Bloodfalcon]

I think some misunderstanding occurred. I meant the visions are for everyone who can receive them with some unknown criteria of selection, not the whole population of Roshar.  

Ah! Ok, my apologies. I hope we get an interlude chapter from this special potter who also sees the visions hahaha.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I'd like to point out that Kaladin had a vision during a highstorm as well. Although the content seemed to be vastly different from the visions that Dalinar receives. So it is possible that the potter had visions like Kaladin's and not like Dalinar's. 

[Bloodfalcon]

BOLD THEORY: Dalinar used to be a simple potter. Goes to Nightwatcher. Boon is to be A HIGHPRINCE and everyone remembers him that way, but he forgets the love of his life: HIS POTS. 

Gonna start a thread if someone doesn't stop me quick.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[Aleksiel]

BOLD THEORY: Dalinar used to be a simple potter. Goes to Nightwatcher. Boon is to be A HIGHPRINCE and everyone remembers him that way, but he forgets the love of his life: HIS POTS. 

Gonna start a thread if someone doesn't stop me quick.

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but the potter died in Mr.T's hospital   it's from an epigraph, one of the death rattles. I just forgot what was the right word for it when I posted the quote. 

 

 

I'd like to point out that Kaladin had a vision during a highstorm as well. Although the content seemed to be vastly different from the visions that Dalinar receives. So it is possible that the potter had visions like Kaladin's and not like Dalinar's. 

 

But that was the Stormfather, not the Almighty, I don't think it counts.

[Bloodfalcon]

Sorry to disappoint you, but the potter died in Mr.T's hospital   it's from an epigraph, one of the death rattles. I just forgot what was the right word for it when I posted the quote. 

 

 

 

But that was the Stormfather, not the Almighty, I don't think it counts.

Did he die, or was he just instantly reborn in the minds of many?!

[Moogle]

Did he die, or was he just instantly reborn in the minds of many?!

 

Maybe men were just not meant to know.

 

As to Sadeas and the original post: yeah, reading up on things, Sadeas is apparently a pretty damnation good swordsman. I really expect to see Adolin fight Sadeas and lose because he's cocky, now.

[Gloom]

 

Dalinar has murdered more people than both Mr. T and Amaram combined. Actually, maybe not Amaram, since Amaram was a leader of a small army. Dalinar's current plans to unite the highprinces involves murdering a lot of people and committing genocide against the Parshendi. Unless they don't count as people, I guess.

 

What's worse is that Dalinar is failing. His plans are not working out and lead directly to the Alethi nation being in ruin. At least Amaram and Taravangian have been accomplishing what they set out to do, so far

 

 

Dalinar's solution is precisely Mr. T's and Nohadons, though he's going about things with a cleaner conscience while killing more people than Mr. T. They are all attempting (or attempted) to gain power through the sword. Taravangian just so happens to be trying to do things with a minimum of death.

 

 

Yes, I'm referring to the Parshendi. Dalinar has killed at least a few hundred Parshendi every battle with his Shards. His every swing kills three or four, and the battles last quite some time. He's definitely killed far more people than Mr. T. And while he might have had some decent reasons before, now he's just doing it so he can unite the Highprinces. Comparing him with Mr. T seems rather appropriate given that his motive in killing the Parshendi is to unite everyone, like Taravangian is killing tons of people to unite everyone.

 

You do realize that you sound like your arguing that their is no difference between a soldier who fires a rocket at an enemy personnel carrier and a crazy who walks into an elementary school and murders a classroom full of children right? You're saying that you don't see the difference between a man risking his life fighting a war for his country and a man who murders sick people in their beds. You're implying that sending an assassin to kill potential rivals is the same as facing said rivals in open battle.

 

Even the Parshendi, who are indeed facing a potential genocide, would disagree with you.

 

We have no clear number of those Taravangian has ordered murdered in their beds. We do know that the number is substantial. We know that Taravangian has had to bring in the poor and disenfranchised to keep up with the demand of lives that he takes daily. That the city known throughout the continent as a place of healing can't find enough bodies to fill the quota Taravangian demands of them.

 

 

Only four or five Parshendi were responsible for Gavilar's death, but the Alethi are killing them all. Seems similar enough to Taravangian.

 

I fail to see the similarity. The Parshendi don't go to the plateaus and sit there meekly as Dalinar cuts them down. They fight for their lives, and fight to kill the Alethi. On every plateau assault Dalinar risks his own life, and at the Tower he nearly lost it. When has Taravangian purposely placed himself at risk?

 

 

 

- Said war is being conducted openly by known combatants, while no one knows who Szeth the murdering assassins master is

 

This is a difference between them, but why does this really matter?

 

It matters because the Alethi and Parshendi have declared themselves and given fair warning of their intent. The Parshendi chose the battleground, not the Alethi. This war is a war of their making, on the ground of their choosing. Each time they do battle, they risk their lives. What was Taravangian risking? Szeth didn't even know who his master was. The biggest risk Taravangian faced was Szeth himself, and he was very very careful to minimize those risks to the best of his abilities.

 

 

Their methods are similar to me. Dalinar is attempting to lead Alethkar by killing anyone those who do not follow his orders (see: threatening the highprince with execution), and is attempting to unite the Highprinces by having them kill Parshendi together. Taravangian is killing anyone who could conceivably not follow his orders (maybe, we don't know his whole plan). There are differences, yes, but they seem rather similar in methods to me; Dalinar is just more open about what he's doing. Both are trying to unite people through slaughter.

 

As to Taravangian. I have seen no indication that he actually has a plan, let alone that that plan is succeeding. All I have seen Taravangian do is murder sick people for information and send his pet assassin out to kill his potential political enemies. Please feel free to give us an outline of Taravangians plan as well as how he has thus far succeeded at achieving anything other than creating chaos and spreading terror. Dalinar has made progress towards the unification of his people. He has found a way to get himself named High Prince of War, and he has come to an understanding with his nephew on how he intends to achieve his ends. He has shown his fellow High Princes exactly how trustworthy his primary political opponent is. He has also determined that he will reinstate the Knights Radiant, and unwittingly recruited to his cause the one person who is most qualified to lead them. All we have seen Taravangian do is give Szeth a new list of names.

[+Aletus]

Dalinar's biggest problem, aside from the way he politicks, is that he isn't doing what Honor asked of him. He's wasting SO MUCH effort simply uniting Alethkar, while sort of half-assing the thought of putting together the radiants. I realize its early on still - and he can do that, provided Szeth doesn't off him,

 

Still, his approach is too close-minded, focusing on Alethkar instead of UNITING THEM, IE throwing down the dragon's peace at Merrilor. 

[Moogle]

You do realize that you sound like your arguing that their is no difference between a soldier who fires a rocket at an enemy personnel carrier and a crazy who walks into an elementary school and murders a classroom full of children right? You're saying that you don't see the difference between a man risking his life fighting a war for his country and a man who murders sick people in their beds. You're implying that sending an assassin to kill potential rivals is the same as facing said rivals in open battle.

 

I am implying that people place entirely too much emphasis on the importance of being 'fair' and fighting your opponent 'respectfully', as if that somehow makes the death cleaner. It doesn't. Parshendi children are being murdered by Dalinar and his army. They're just as dead as if Taravangian had Szeth kill them. Whether they died on a battlefield or died from poison at a feast doesn't matter to me one bit. I find the war between the Alethi and Parshendi disgusting and an immense waste of life.

 

We have no clear number of those Taravangian has ordered murdered in their beds. We do know that the number is substantial. We know that Taravangian has had to bring in the poor and disenfranchised to keep up with the demand of lives that he takes daily. That the city known throughout the continent as a place of healing can't find enough bodies to fill the quota Taravangian demands of them.

Define 'substantial'. Is it more or less than the tens of thousands who have died in the war against the Parshendi? Dalinar kills hundreds of people every battle, and he's been in many battles. He's also just one Shardbearer. Alethkar has twenty or more Shardblades, and legions of soldiers.

 

Taravangian might kill people daily, but he's only been at it for a few years. I doubt he kills more than what, 10-20 a day? There's a battle for a gemheart where hundreds (if not more) die every day or two. There's no way he can kill hundreds of thousands of people without someone noticing. Kharbranth is not that big of a city that it wouldn't notice that many people going missing.

 

Just because Kharbranth is known as a place of healing does not mean people travel from across the continent to go there and be healed. Typically, if you have a wound or sickness so great that you'd need Kharbranth's surgeons, you'd die from traveling there.

 

 

I fail to see the similarity. The Parshendi don't go to the plateaus and sit there meekly as Dalinar cuts them down. They fight for their lives, and fight to kill the Alethi. On every plateau assault Dalinar risks his own life, and at the Tower he nearly lost it. When has Taravangian purposely placed himself at risk?

 

The Parshendi fight in self-defense. They ran away from the Alethi. The Alethi attacked them. A few Parshendi might have assassinated Dalinar, but you don't punish a whole people for the mistakes of a few of them.

 

Why would Taravangian ever place himself at risk? That would be idiotic. Taravangian is an idiot randomly ( ) but he's not that dumb. The world is relying on Taravangian to save it, and getting himself whacked off in some pointless battle over a dead king who doesn't care anymore (and for some reason, I don't think Gavilar would have supported the war against the Parshendi anyways...) is definitely not something he'd do. The fact that Dalinar is putting himself in danger is a point against him, particularly considering how important his visions are. If he dies, they get no more visions. Dalinar has thankfully stopped going out directly into battles, however.

 

 

It matters because the Alethi and Parshendi have declared themselves and given fair warning of their intent. The Parshendi chose the battleground, not the Alethi. This war is a war of their making, on the ground of their choosing. Each time they do battle, they risk their lives. What was Taravangian risking? Szeth didn't even know who his master was. The biggest risk Taravangian faced was Szeth himself, and he was very very careful to minimize those risks to the best of his abilities.

 

This seems to be the issue, then. You feel that people risking themselves or being brave/open somehow adds meaning or justifies what they're doing. I don't see that at all. As to the Parshendi, they did choose where to run to, but that hardly matters because with a little diplomacy everything could be better. Instead, both the Parshendi and Alethi are being pigheaded and stupid about it. Even Dalinar, who should know better, has decided to turn killing Parshendi to a political purpose so he can unite Alethkar. Hopefully Eshonai can salvage something...

 

 

As to Taravangian. I have seen no indication that he actually has a plan, let alone that that plan is succeeding. All I have seen Taravangian do is murder sick people for information and send his pet assassin out to kill his potential political enemies. Please feel free to give us an outline of Taravangians plan as well as how he has thus far succeeded at achieving anything other than creating chaos and spreading terror.

 

Taravangian's Plan (As We Currently Know It):

• The world is rotting and filled with corrupt, and blood-thirsty, and incompetent leadership. The Alethi have border skirmishes just because, the Shin don't care about the outside world, the Horneaters constantly commit suicide against the Alethi in order to win a Shardblade (because they don't actually have any leadership), one nation has whoever is eldest rule, and one family is currently ruling because they keep killing off anyone who gets old enough to challenge them... that sort of thing.
• The death prophecies speak that a terrible Desolation is coming. The world needs to unite to face it. As things stand, the world will not be united. The world is at war, if you go by Kaladin's highstorm vision. Honor tells Dalinar to "Create a fortress that can weather the storm" and "Build of your people a fortress of strength and peace". (Sidenote: Dalinar is really failing at that peace bit.)
• Therefore, the world needs a leader who knows what he's doing. Someone who has information about the coming threat and can act to neutralize it. Someone who can stop the wars happening over the world and unite everyone. Taravangian has information in spades, and with his secret organization and followers, he's got a lot of power.
• In order to take over as ruler of the world and save everyone from the upcoming Desolation, the current leadership has to be removed and Taravangian (or people he trusts) have to be put in charge of everywhere. Taravangian remarks that to build up strong walls, sometimes you have to rebuild the foundation.
• Therefore, Taravangian is murdering all the political leaders and causing chaos and fear to spread out amongst all the nations. With the old leadership out of the way, Taravangian can take over. Whether it's by promoting Kharbranth as a safe haven and having people welcome him with open arms, or else using his military to take over weakened nations, or some other option, his goal is to end up in charge. So far, so good.

Taravangian has set out so far to cause chaos and take out the world's leadership. So far, he's succeeded. Dalinar's current plan is to unite the Alethi and restart the Knights Radiant by becoming Highprince of War and forcing the highprinces to follow his orders. He's succeeded minorly in the first stage of his plan, but he's failed at both other things so far, even going so far as to bring Alethkar to the brink of a civil war. And, from the epigraphs, we know he failed fundamentally and managed to get the Alethi destroyed or seriously harmed because of the stupid war with the Parshendi.

 

 

Dalinar has made progress towards the unification of his people. He has found a way to get himself named High Prince of War, and he has come to an understanding with his nephew on how he intends to achieve his ends.

 

Please provide evidence showing Elhokar agrees with anything Dalinar is doing. All he's done so far is complain and criticize Dalinar's plan. I'm moderately convinced that Elhokar does not in fact support Dalinar.

 

 

He has shown his fellow High Princes exactly how trustworthy his primary political opponent is.

 

He's shown his fellow highprinces how weak he is and how naive he was to bother trusting another highprince. He's shown them that if you work with another highprince, you lose 75% of your men.

 

 

He has also determined that he will reinstate the Knights Radiant, and unwittingly recruited to his cause the one person who is most qualified to lead them. All we have seen Taravangian do is give Szeth a new list of names.

 

Dalinar did good recruiting Kaladin, but his plans to reform the Radiants so far seem to be "hope really hard that something will happen". He's focused his efforts on reuniting the highprinces and killing Parshendi, not reforming the Radiants.

 

As to Taravangian, we've had dozens of chapters of what Dalinar is doing, and we've had one glimpse of Taravangian's plans and half of his interlude in WoR. I imagine Taravangian has been doing quite a lot of things we haven't seen.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[WeiryWriter]

Okay people, let's put the discussion of Dalinar's thoughts and actions to rest or move it to its own thread or PMs. It has pretty much derailed this, and a couple other threads as well.

[+Aletus]

That would be because Sadeas is no fun to talk about :3 

[vikorr]

Having thought about this - Moogle arguments lead to the conclusions that:

 

He doesn't see any meaningful difference between:

- assassinations and war

- a murderer and a soldier

- secretive and open

- allowing one to defend yourself and not

 

He also doesn't comprehend :

- obeying the laws of the land you are in

- that leaders of a peoples assassinating a king starts a war with those peoples

 

Nor does he comprehend the difference between :

- using a pre-existing and current war to unite your side; and

- assassinating leaders around the world to take over

(note the similarity in both is that they are trying to unit their people to save their peoples)

 

Having a little time to think about it - the inability to comprehend such differences, and the views that incomprehension generate are so 'different' that there's little point arguing the difference between Dalinar and Mr T with such existing differences in posters.

Edited February 20, 2014 by vikorr

[Swimmingly]

I'm not a moderator, but I think I should ask that we keep it fluffy and friendly around here, though everything is still polite. Please appease any brewing anger you feel against fellow 17th Sharders by punching a pillow and petting a kitteh. Or the other way around, if that's your thing. You sicko.

[vikorr]

Hi Swimmingly - that is actually a summary of the things he's said. Everything is quotable. Nor is there anger as you percieve. Pretty much straight after this, I upvoted Moogles latest theory, which was quite good. My last post was simply an acknowledgement that the differences in viewpoint on this particular subject won't find a common ground...and therefore debate doesn't achieve anything.

[DocHoliday]

Anger is not yet apparent, however certain posts contain remarks that could easily be inflammatory.

[vikorr]

They could be inflammatory - if I had tried to present Moogles views inaccurately, or demonise those views - neither of which I've done.

 

As is - they appear to be exactly what he thinks. By way of explanation - I've put my post in question in blue, his thoughts in red. I've 'quoted' my post in question as a format to help ease of reading.

 

He doesn't see any meaningful difference between:

- assassinations and war

 

- a murderer and a soldier

 

 

Legalized murder is still murder, as far as I'm concerned. This is a matter of feelings and opinions, though, so I imagine some other people will not agree with me there.

 

He provides quite a bit of further clarification - some below

 

- secretive and open

 

 

I SAID “Said war is being conducted openly by known combatants, while no one knows who Szeth the murdering assassins master is

 

He said "This is a difference between them, but why does this really matter?"

 

I said :One you can face / attack, let the world know - the other you can't.

 

One you can gather allies against - the other you can't.

 

One puts his public name & reputation to the action - the other doesn't.

 

He said "Again, I fail to see the important difference here." That was the first sentence in a paragraph. The remainder didn't change the meaning of the first.

 

- allowing one to defend yourself and not

 

 

As per almost all the above, but also specifically:

 

I said :One you can face / attack, let the world know - the other you can't.

 

One you can gather allies against - the other you can't.'

 

He said "Again, I fail to see the important difference here."

 

He also doesn't comprehend :

- obeying the laws of the land you are in

 

He said : The Parshendi are not Alethi, do not swear allegiance to the Alethi monarch, and thus are not bound by their laws.

I said : They were on Alethi land, in the Alethi Palace, and I doubt anyone else would ever try argue they weren't bound by Alethi laws while there, not to murder the Alethi King.

To the Alethi, yes. I imagine non-Alethi might argue that Alethi law doesn't apply to non-Alethi.

 

- that leaders of a peoples assassinating a king starts a war with those peoples

 

He said : Only four or five Parshendi were responsible for Gavilar's death, but the Alethi are killing them all.

 

I said : 4 or 5 of the Parshendi leaders...invited to lead a treaty...were responsible for Gavilar's death...knowing it would lead to openwar...and Killed the King anyway.

 

He said "And those Parshendi were promptly hanged, save for Eshonai. All the innocent Parshendi are now being harmed by Dalinar in his quest for power."

 

Nor does he comprehend the difference between :

 

- using a pre-existing and current war to unite your side; and

 

- assassinating leaders around the world to take over

(note the similarity in both is that they are trying to unit their people to save their peoples)

 

 

While this is clear through his posts - perhaps mostly through his refusal to acknowledge the war as pre-existing to Dalinars decision to truly unite the high princes - the gist of his believing the two above 'things' to be similar is perhaps clearest in this single paragraph :

 

Their methods are similar to me. Dalinar is attempting to lead Alethkar by killing anyone those who do not follow his orders (see: threatening the highprince with execution), and is attempting to unite the Highprinces by having them kill Parshendi together. Taravangian is killing anyone who could conceivably not follow his orders (maybe, we don't know his whole plan). There are differences, yes, but they seem rather similar in methods to me; Dalinar is just more open about what he's doing. Both are trying to unite people through slaughter.

 

As mentioned earlier - what I said was simply a summary of his postings, and an acknowledgement that there's little point debating when their is no common ground in beliefs.

 

Gloom started another thread - similar statements - though not quite as far. Rather than highjacking that thread, I posted here where the discussion started, because he would likely read this.

 

If anyone feels how I've summarised to be inaccurate, please feel free to state which summarised statements are inaccurate - 'why' you believe it is inaccurate would be helpful too.

Edited February 20, 2014 by vikorr

[Swimmingly]

On the plus side, poor Torol is being justfully neglected

[DocHoliday]

Geez...skip 1 page of dialogue and you miss the assassination of good behavior...(mutters into the distance while hunting said page)

As an aside, thank you for noting my argument's good points. I'm used to having my opinions torn down to shreds on the internet, so I'm pleasantly surprised and grateful that this doesn't happen here on 17th Shard. No matter the difference in opinion, people can still be courteous. Thanks again!

 

Gentlemen(ladies?) Chrono has struck at the heart of the 17th Shard.

 

I went back and reread the entire thread. Vikorr, much of what you have argued for, I agree with. However you are flirting with a serious line of  rudeness, intentionally or not. If it is Moogle's belief (religious or not) that murder is murder, sanctioned or not, that is his right. Legal, right, and wrong are 3 different subjects open to every individual's interpretations. Please can we respectfully agree that we disagree?

 

Moogle, on 18 Feb 2014 - 9:25 PM, said:

17th Shard is rather different. I'm not sure why. Probably the strong moderation/high proportion of Mormons, now I think on it. Things do work out rather well here. If I've ever offended or been rude, don't hesitate to PM me so I can stop doing it. My goal when arguing morality and other things here is not to offend, but to understand other positions and I fear I sometimes come off as arrogant.

 

This is I feel a wonderful thought process we should embrace.

The human brain is equipped to communicate in a person to person manner, when we use the internet we lose 2/3 of communication (namely tone and body language). We must endeavor to acknowledge that what we have said, may not be entirely accurate as to what we want to communicate.

 

All that being said: We are terrorists that have hijacked this thread.

If we would like to continue the friendly debate (not argument), about Dalinars relative merits, might I suggest in good taste that we create our own thread? 

To the best of my knowledge, you Moogle are fu savant in the ways of hyper links. Would you kindly provide one so others could understand the founding POVs? (Yes I went Brit on this one, be silent miscreant)

[vikorr]

Hi Doc, it has it's own thread - which I mentioned near the end of my last post - this is the thread

 

If it is Moogle's belief (religious or not) that murder is murder, sanctioned or not, that is his right

 

 

I think we'll disagree on this - redefining words and using them in a way that demonises (due to the true definition) in order to strengthen your argument isn't a 'right'. 

 

Two words already exists for what he wanted to say - Homicide, or killing

 

Should you mean - it's his right to find both war and murder wrong, we can both agree. 

 

And just because I agree that holding different opinions is fine - doesn't mean I can't suddenly realise the reason and say 'hey wait a minute - the reason this debate has been so so circular is #### '

 

At no time have I called Moogle a name, attached any negative labels to him, attempted to reinterpret his words to demonise him, put him down, etc.What I did was summarise his views, because of a realisation that they were at the heart of several pages of very circular arguments.

 

We've had several great discussions, and I think we'll have several more.

 

It's this particularly one to which there is no point.

Edited February 20, 2014 by vikorr

[Aleksiel]

Ok, the thread is going in a very different direction, so I'm gonna do the unusual and post something on topic 

 

I didn't realize before Adolin's duel that Shards can be won that way. Dalinar mentioned that Sadeas wasn't able to defeat a full Shardbearer on the battlefield, but it's really curious why he never dueled a fellow Alethi for his Blade.

 

Perhaps he can't rent a Blade from Elhokat for duel (though I think the text said otherwise), thus can't win with only a Plate? Sadeas is just not interested in such competition? Or it's beneath a Highprince status to do so? Dalinar said he won't accept a duel.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I'm betting that there is a social stigma about wining shards in a duel. Or at least he is unwilling to make the enemies that method would create. It is also possible that he doesn't like the idea of spending the money to borrow a blade, when there is a chance that he could loose his plate. Because he would then be out the plate and the money, which would be rather embarrassing for him.

[CodeMnke]

Actually it may not be Sadeas that is the issue with winning a shardblade in a duel. Two points from some of the WoR chapters.

 

Duels for shards are not common (see Adolin' duel)

 

The "duelee" if you will, must accept the duel for shards. If I was a shardbearer and knew how good Sadeas is supposed to be no way would I duel him. Several places in the WoR pre release chapters talk about how they can get people to accept duels with Adolin for their shards

 

Also all these people with shardblades are probably pretty good too, hence the reason they have them. I remember a quote somewhere that Dalinar had given plate/blade to the king to give out to the best warrior, since that is what is best for the kingdom. Making the assumption that Sadeas is better than them just because he is really good too may be incorrect.

[Beautor]

Actually it may not be Sadeas that is the issue with winning a shardblade in a duel. Two points from some of the WoR chapters.

 

Duels for shards are not common (see Adolin' duel)

 

The "duelee" if you will, must accept the duel for shards. If I was a shardbearer and knew how good Sadeas is supposed to be no way would I duel him. Several places in the WoR pre release chapters talk about how they can get people to accept duels with Adolin for their shards

 

Also all these people with shardblades are probably pretty good too, hence the reason they have them. I remember a quote somewhere that Dalinar had given plate/blade to the king to give out to the best warrior, since that is what is best for the kingdom. Making the assumption that Sadeas is better than them just because he is really good too may be incorrect.

 

I agree that it might be as simple as there not being anyone willing to accept a challenge from Sadeas, however I'd say I think there's more to it than that. I think (don't have a quote at the moment to back me up here) that there is also a social issue with a Highlord challenging or dueling someone lower than himself and from a different house than him. It could be precipitate a war between the princedoms. We may very well see this happening in WoR. I'm sure that at the very least we'll learn more about the Alethi system of duels and challenges.