Sadeas the Swordsman

[Moogle]

Moogle, when did Dalinar ever threaten Elhokar to make him Highprince of War? IIRC, he gave him the classic beatdown to prove that he was loyal and that he didn't want to kill him. In fact, he tells Elhokar that if he is Highprince of War, he'll protect him and find out who's trying to kill him. Unless you're talking about the extremely veiled threat in that statement. 

 

Ah yes, the classic "I'm going to almost kill you just to show you that I can do it whenever I want and your guards are loyal to me. Now, you will name me Highprince of War." 'Veiled' threat? It's about as blatant as humanly possible, and the fact that Dalinar is blind enough to think that anyone would not interpret it that way is... disturbing.

 

What do you think Dalinar would have done if Elhokar had refused to name him Highprince of War?

 

Elhokar never agrees with anything Dalinar says. He acts like he's a puppet and seems to accept that Dalinar is in charge. He objects to Dalinar's plan to make him Highprince, and constantly remarks that Dalinar is turning him into a target and getting him assassinated. He gloomily remarks that Dalinar's plan is going to get assassins sent after their families. Elhokar is quite plainly not on Dalinar's side, here.

 

Regardless of what Dalinar intended, it quite clearly came across as a threat to Elhokar... and it will have come across as a threat to literally every Highprince with half a brain. Any highprince with spies or an ear out for gossip (read: every single one of them) will have heard that Dalinar entered Elhokar's tent, and Elhokar's Plate was broken and smashed and needed repair. The next day, Elhokar proclaimed Dalinar as Highprince of War. This was after Elhokar publicly gave the investigation of his cut strap to Sadeas, basically saying he didn't trust Dalinar to every highprince. The obvious conclusion is that Dalinar forcibly threatened Elhokar and took power from him... which is why most highprinces will likely try to rebel. If Dalinar isn't respecting the chain of command, why should they?

 

Who made any statement that his actions were a Divine right?

 

You sort of noted that a leader should be allowed to disarm his subjects if they grow rebellious, which is essentially an argument that they have a divine right. I will concede that it was not the best choice of words, but that's the typical justification for why a leader is able to do anything they want to do.

 

 

Err Moogle, Dalinar specifically states that he would never kill Elokhar. He did tell Elohkar that if Elohkar behaved like a child, then he (Dalinar) would treat him like a child...which he immediately started doing to a certain degree.

 

Yes, poor choice of words on my part. See my reasoning above! If Elhokar had refused to name Dalinar Highprince of War, I imagine Dalinar would have beat him until he agreed to give him the title - or at least, Elhokar would have assumed that.

 

 

And you are also exactly right with the High Princes wishing to rebel. It's a foreseeable and understandable consequence - hence another plan is needed to bring them in line...without murdering people (yes, that's a shot at both Mr T, and Amaram)

 

Dalinar has murdered more people than both Mr. T and Amaram combined. Actually, maybe not Amaram, since Amaram was a leader of a small army. Dalinar's current plans to unite the highprinces involves murdering a lot of people and committing genocide against the Parshendi. Unless they don't count as people, I guess.

 

What's worse is that Dalinar is failing. His plans are not working out and lead directly to the Alethi nation being in ruin. At least Amaram and Taravangian have been accomplishing what they set out to do, so far.

 

 

And they did however swear fealty to the King - they don't know what Dalinar did to become High Prince of War

 

Of course they know what he did! There are spies everywhere, and the King can't have his Shardplate repaired without everyone knowing it. The king has previously implicated Dalinar (with the strap) and all-but-said he doesn't trust him.

 

 

The questions that appear pertinent to this discussion are :

- what are you prepared to do to achieve a unified, just, and peaceful kingdom?

- what are you prepared to do to save the world?; and more specifically 

- if it is necessary to unify to save the world, and people won't unify - what are you prepared to do in order to achieve that unification?

 

In the first question, we see Nohadon's solution - which arguably isn't too much different than Dalinar's. Dalinar appears to be trying to do it without 'the sword', though he only got to that position through the sword several years prior.

 

We see Mr T's method for achieving the last question. And it contrasts directly to Dalinar's method, though Dalinar is not quite as certain about the nature and breadth of the threat.

 

You posit it as a question about justification, while I see it as a balance between necessity and human right/compassion/cohesion etc - in differing circumstances the weightings will be different.

 

Dalinar's solution is precisely Mr. T's and Nohadons, though he's going about things with a cleaner conscience while killing more people than Mr. T. They are all attempting (or attempted) to gain power through the sword. Taravangian just so happens to be trying to do things with a minimum of death.

[Elbereth]

Dalinar has murdered more people than both Mr. T and Amaram combined. Actually, maybe not Amaram, since Amaram was a leader of a small army. Dalinar's current plans to unite the highprinces involves murdering a lot of people and committing genocide against the Parshendi. Unless they don't count as people, I guess.

Who are these people that Dalinar will murder? Are you referring to the Parshendi? I can't think of anyone else that Dalinar is planning to murder.

And, I doubt that Dalinar has killed more people than Mr. T, not counting the Parshendi. (If you do count them, then sure.) He participated in the wars to see Gavilar king, but I doubt that involves as much murder as sucking the blood out of thousands of people (conservatively).

Edited February 19, 2014 by Limelleth

[Moogle]

Who are these people that Dalinar will murder? Are you referring to the Parshendi? I can't think of anyone else that Dalinar is planning to murder.

And, I doubt that Dalinar has killed more people than Mr. T, not counting the Parshendi. (If you do count them, then sure.) He participated in the wars to see Gavilar king, but I doubt that involves as much murder as sucking the blood out of thousands of people (conservatively).

 

Yes, I'm referring to the Parshendi. Dalinar has killed at least a few hundred Parshendi every battle with his Shards. His every swing kills three or four, and the battles last quite some time. He's definitely killed far more people than Mr. T. And while he might have had some decent reasons before, now he's just doing it so he can unite the Highprinces. Comparing him with Mr. T seems rather appropriate given that his motive in killing the Parshendi is to unite everyone, like Taravangian is killing tons of people to unite everyone.

 

This is ignoring the number of people he and Gavilar killed the Unification Wars. We don't know the numbers there. Apparently it was a lot, though.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Chrono]

 

What's worse is that Dalinar is failing. His plans are not working out and lead directly to the Alethi nation being in ruin. At least Amaram and Taravangian have been accomplishing what they set out to do, so far.

 

 

If you're going by that logic, then Taravangian is failing miserably too. Taravangian's strategy sounds incredibly brilliant on paper: kill off every single powerful world leader and bring all the countries under your control to unite them against the Everstorm. Except (and this is where you will most likely disagree with me) Taravangian is moving far too slowly for it to be of any use. This sort of thing requires very quick timing, especially with the warning that Dalinar has received. Szeth is a Windrunner, so he is quicker than most assassins, but he is only one individual. You may argue that Taravangian has an entire team of assassins to do his bidding, but they too can only move so quickly. Taravangian is creating massive world disorder right when it is the worst time to do so. Settling in as a dictator with absolute control over a people completely loyal to him would take years. Add in the fact that his mental capabilities change from day to day only adds to the time problem. 

 

The core problem with Taravangian's idea, however, is not the time issue, which he cannot possibly foresee. It's the idea he has that people will follow him once all of his opponents are dead. I personally would not follow a man who admits to slaying my world leader, even if he has good ideas or motives behind it. Add to the fact that Taravangian is murdering people in cold blood to gain information. If any of this sort of information gets out to the general public, his plan unravels quite quickly. Taravangian may set himself up as some sort of holy prophet who can save others against the Everstorm, but then you have a problem with religion and superstition. 

 

If Taravangian does get the image right and present himself as the world's savior, people of all nationalities and religions will wonder where this information is coming from. Even if the Everstorm is blowing right over their heads, Taravangian's plan, as of necessity, involves an amazing amount of foresight and precision. Almost hilariously, the planning itself has provided the exact fuel needed to destroy it. Ardents will refuse to follow him on the basis that he is seeing the future, as will most of the Vorin population. This population includes Alethkar and Jah Keved, two of the largest superpowers in the world. Both are two nations Taravangian needs desperately under control for his plan to work, but if these problems ever manifest, you can kiss them goodbye.

 

In short, I believe that Taravangian's strategy relies on too many things that could go horrendously wrong. Everything must be perfect, or it all falls apart. And, if we go with Finagle's law, it will. You can argue that Dalinar has exactly the same problems with his plan, and I would agree with you. The point I'm trying to make is that both of these potential leaders are not ready. They're not even close. Dalinar may have more military might and Taravangian may have more knowledge and preparation, but that will be moot when the Everstorm comes crashing down on their heads.

 

EDIT: In my argument about there not being enough time for Taravangian's plan, I am using the 62 day deadline as the time when the Everstorm comes. Sorry for any confusion!

 

On a different note, I see Nohadon's "way of the sword" as rather similar to Elend's tactic in Hero of Ages: go around and bully small towns (or in this instance, kingdoms) into joining your cause so that you can protect them. Is it the best tactic? Most definitely not. Ideally, the Silver Kingdoms would have been united already. But they obviously weren't, and Nohadon was definitely under pressure. Brute force often gets fast results in politics. But, as some would argue, diplomacy is a more lasting solution. Nohadon notably begins diplomacy and the Silver Kingdoms remain united for however long they lasted.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Chrono

[Elbereth]

Ok. I just wasn't sure what you were referring to.

Though, it's interesting to make a distinction: What Dalinar is doing is legal (it's war), while Mr. T is committing murder. Or maybe homocide? I'm not very well versed in legality. So there's that.

EDIT:

If you're going by that logic, then Taravangian is failing miserably too. Taravangian's strategy sounds incredibly brilliant on paper: kill off every single powerful world leader and bring all the countries under your control to unite them against the Everstorm. Except (and this is where you will most likely disagree with me) Taravangian is moving far too slowly for it to be of any use. This sort of thing requires very quick timing, especially with the warning that Dalinar has received. Szeth is a Windrunner, so he is quicker than most assassins, but he is only one individual. You may argue that Taravangian has an entire team of assassins to do his bidding, but they too can only move so quickly. Taravangian is creating massive world disorder right when it is the worst time to do so. Settling in as a dictator with absolute control over a people completely loyal to him would take years. Add in the fact that his mental capabilities change from day to day only adds to the time problem. 

The core problem with Taravangian's idea, however, is not the time issue, which he cannot possibly foresee. It's the idea he has that people will follow him once all of his opponents are dead. I personally would not follow a man who admits to slaying my world leader, even if he has good ideas or motives behind it. Add to the fact that Taravangian is murdering people in cold blood to gain information. If any of this sort of information gets out to the general public, his plan unravels quite quickly. Taravangian may set himself up as some sort of holy prophet who can save others against the Everstorm, but then you have a problem with religion and superstition. 

 

If Taravangian does get the image right and present himself as the world's savior, people of all nationalities and religions will wonder where this information is coming from. Even if the Everstorm is blowing right over their heads, Taravangian's plan, as of necessity, involves an amazing amount of foresight and precision. Almost hilariously, the planning itself has provided the exact fuel needed to destroy it. Ardents will refuse to follow him on the basis that he is seeing the future, as will most of the Vorin population. This population includes Alethkar and Jah Keved, two of the largest superpowers in the world. Both are two nations Taravangian needs desperately under control for his plan to work, but if these problems ever manifest, you can kiss them goodbye.

 

In short, I believe that Taravangian's strategy relies on too many things that could go horrendously wrong. Everything must be perfect, or it all falls apart. And, if we go with Finagle's law, it will. You can argue that Dalinar has exactly the same problems with his plan, and I would agree with you. The point I'm trying to make is that both of these potential leaders are not ready. They're not even close. Dalinar may have more military might and Taravangian may have more knowledge and preparation, but that will be moot when the Everstorm comes crashing down on their heads.

 

On a different note, I see Nohadon's "way of the sword" as rather similar to Elend's tactic in Hero of Ages: go around and bully small towns (or in this instance, kingdoms) into joining your cause so that you can protect them. Is it the best tactic? Most definitely not. Ideally, the Silver Kingdoms would have been united already. But they obviously weren't, and Nohadon was definitely under pressure. Brute force often gets fast results in politics. But, as some would argue, diplomacy is a more lasting solution. Nohadon notably begins diplomacy and the Silver Kingdoms remain united for however long they lasted.

I think we have more time than you assume. Remember that there will be ten books, with a break of an unspecified amount of time between them. This allows for at least two years, probably more like five. Though, the Everstorm will arrive before that, so I don't know. If only we had any idea what the Everstorm wil be.

Also, I don't think that you're giving Taravangian enough credit. He hasn't spelled out his plan yet, and for all we know, he is not planning to set himself up as a leader. We have no idea what he's trying to do, except create chaos and restructure society in some way. Maybe he'll just make Kharbranth seem like a place of safety when all the rest of the world is in chaos, so people will flock to it. He'll start expanding slowly and gaining more power, and no one will be able to stop him. He doesn't even need to tell people about the Everstorm.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Limelleth

[Moogle]

If you're going by that logic, then Taravangian is failing miserably too. Taravangian's strategy sounds incredibly brilliant on paper: kill off every single powerful world leader and bring all the countries under your control to unite them against the Everstorm. Except (and this is where you will most likely disagree with me) Taravangian is moving far too slowly for it to be of any use.

 

Your criticism is fair and well-argued. Especially considering you would say that both Taravangian and Dalinar are in a position to be ineffective, I cannot find any fault in your position. I agree that Taravangian's plans could very well fall down like a house of cards, but I trust that he made his plans while having an incredibly good day, so for now I trust him more than Dalinar. We'll see if Brandon plays the super-intelligent trope as being effective with Taravangian actually accomplishing his goals. I have minor quibbles with your arguments, but they're really not worth derailing this topic any further. The only thing I would note is this:

 

 

On a different note, I see Nohadon's "way of the sword" as rather similar to Elend's tactic in Hero of Ages: go around and bully small towns (or in this instance, kingdoms) into joining your cause so that you can protect them. Is it the best tactic? Most definitely not. Ideally, the Silver Kingdoms would have been united already. But they obviously weren't, and Nohadon was definitely under pressure. Brute force often gets fast results in politics. But, as some would argue, diplomacy is a more lasting solution. Nohadon notably begins diplomacy and the Silver Kingdoms remain united for however long they lasted.

 

Nohadon didn't begin with diplomacy. It didn't sound like he was doing what Elend did at all. He seems to have conquered everyone first. He sounds remarkably like Taravangian/Dalinar in this quote:

 

 

“No, we need to rebuild,” Nohadon said. “I just wish there were a way to convince the kings—the ones still alive—not to seek advantage over one another.” Nohadon tapped the balcony. “So this is my decision. Step down, or do what is needed. This isn’t a time for writing. It’s a time for action. And then, unfortunately, a time for the sword.”

 

Ok. I just wasn't sure what you were referring to.

Though, it's interesting to make a distinction: What Dalinar is doing is legal (it's war), while Mr. T is committing murder. Or maybe homocide? I'm not very well versed in legality. So there's that.

 

I feel that what is legal is a poor guide to what you should do in a given situation. Legalized murder is still murder, as far as I'm concerned. This is a matter of feelings and opinions, though, so I imagine some other people will not agree with me there.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Chrono]

Ah, I phrased poorly then. What I meant to say is that Nohadon took over the Silver Kingdoms by force, as you said, but after the Desolations ended and the threat of danger was no longer around, he began negotiation. I was rambling pretty badly in that last post, so I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

As an aside, thank you for noting my argument's good points. I'm used to having my opinions torn down to shreds on the internet, so I'm pleasantly surprised and grateful that this doesn't happen here on 17th Shard. No matter the difference in opinion, people can still be courteous. Thanks again!

[Moogle]

Ah, I phrased poorly then. What I meant to say is that Nohadon took over the Silver Kingdoms by force, as you said, but after the Desolations ended and the threat of danger was no longer around, he began negotiation. I was rambling pretty badly in that last post, so I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

Ah, that's fair. I would hope Taravangian and Dalinar would do the same thing, but that's rampant speculation at this point.

 

As an aside, thank you for noting my argument's good points. I'm used to having my opinions torn down to shreds on the internet, so I'm pleasantly surprised and grateful that this doesn't happen here on 17th Shard. No matter the difference in opinion, people can still be courteous. Thanks again!

 

17th Shard is rather different. I'm not sure why. Probably the strong moderation/high proportion of Mormons, now I think on it. Things do work out rather well here. If I've ever offended or been rude, don't hesitate to PM me so I can stop doing it. My goal when arguing morality and other things here is not to offend, but to understand other positions and I fear I sometimes come off as arrogant.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly]

I think it has less to do with the demographics of the community than the precedent, honestly.

[Elbereth]

I feel that what is legal is a poor guide to what you should do in a given situation. Legalized murder is still murder, as far as I'm concerned. This is a matter of feelings and opinions, though, so I imagine some other people will not agree with me there.

Point taken. But it is different for those in the book-- Dalinar has a much firmer base than Taravangian, if all the blood-draining stuff gets out. That's kind of off topic, though.

To actually respond to the original point: Dalinar is indeed fighting the Parshendi basically only to unite the highprinces. However, he doesn't have much choice. He could urge a return to Alethkar (unlikely to succeed), or abdicate, I guess, leaving the whole mess in Adolin's lap instead. Otherwise, he would probably continue fighting the Parshendi anyway, for far less reason.

I think it has less to do with the demographics of the community than the precedent, honestly.

I agree with that. Regardless, it's a nice place on the Internet to be.

[WitSpren]

You talk as if you did not know that Sadeas is a coward.      The Kolinars jump across chasms and  establish a bridgeheads for their troops.    Sadeas sends unarmed bridgemen and his army to secure plateau's before he joins.    

 

Delinar tells about how brave Sadeas was in the Old Days, but as we have seen, Sadeas is good at pulling the wool over Dalinar's eyes.    Delinas could just be fooling himself, because he has has such shame about being drunk when his brother was assassinated.

 

I think that if you need additional proof of this, just look at the war of unification and then add 6 years of fighting on the Shattered Plains and you will see that Sadeas still did not have a Shardblade.     That is a really piss poor record.

 

 

I have a little bit of a Sadistic hope of soon (in 2 weeks) hearing about Sadeas the Swordlessman, when he gets out on the Shattered Plains on his next run, in the middle of a heavy battle, when Delinar calls back the Shard blade that he only loaned Sadeas.    I know that will not work because it would really screw up Delenar's KR path, but it would have a great "Paybacks a Bitch" factor.

[vikorr]

Legalized murder is still murder, as far as I'm concerned. This is a matter of feelings and opinions, though, so I imagine some other people will not agree with me there.

 

 

Huh...by it's very definition, legalised 'murder' is not murder. 'Murder' is otherwise known and defined as unlawful homicide. Now if you want to say homicide is homicide whether legal or not - that is actually the case.

 

Dalinar's solution is precisely Mr. T's and Nohadons, though he's going about things with a cleaner conscience while killing more people than Mr. T. They are all attempting (or attempted) to gain power through the sword. Taravangian just so happens to be trying to do things with a minimum of death.

 

 

You also have no evidence for this statement. 'Gaining power'by the sword/through the sword' is always a phrase referencing gaining power over someone/a peoples through killing people with the sword - who are members of the people you are trying to gain power over (though there are more complex versions of this). This is not the case with Dalinar while it is the case with Mr T.

 

There are some rather distinct differences between the two :

 

- Dalinar wants to unite Alethkar/the High Princes and isn't murdering them to do it Vs Mr T is murdering the leaders of the ones he wants to Unite

- the Parshendi murdered (in this case correctly used) Dalinars brother & king Vs the leaders Mr T is murdering didn't do any such thing

- War was declared on the Parshendi for the above assassination of the Alethi King, Vs Mr.T's no such war existing for the ones he's murdering

- Said war is being conducted openly by known combatants, while no one knows who Szeth the murdering assassins master is

 

So it's rather bemusing that you would attempt to say they are both pretty much comparable in any way except the end goal (united Alethkar for Dalinar / United Human Race for Mr T.)

 

What do you think Dalinar would have done if Elhokar had refused to name him Highprince of War?

 

Nothing (in terms of murder) - neither the codes, nor the Way of Kings allows him to murder...openly conquer maybe, but not murder.

 

So no matter how you try to make his actions into a threat...it remains clear that he did what he did to show an immensely paranoid king & nephew that he did not, and never would, murder said king & nephew (because if he ever had wanted to, he simply could have) 

[Moogle]

Huh...by it's very definition, legalised 'murder' is not murder. 'Murder' is otherwise known and defined as unlawful homicide. Now if you want to say homicide is homicide whether legal or not - that is actually the case.

 

I have no desire to argue semantics, so I will concede the point and say that I thought my meaning was clear and apologize that it was not. I will use the correct word in the future.

 

- Dalinar wants to unite Alethkar/the High Princes and isn't murdering them to do it Vs Mr T is murdering the leaders of the ones he wants to Unite

 

Dalinar has threatened to execute high princes who don't follow orders, and has previously worked with Gavilar to kill highprinces. We'll see if all the highprinces have their heads at the end of WoR. I'm betting Sadeas gets his chopped off.

 

 

- the Parshendi murdered (in this case correctly used) Dalinars brother & king Vs the leaders Mr T is murdering didn't do any such thing

 

The Parshendi are not Alethi, do not swear allegiance to the Alethi monarch, and thus are not bound by their laws. The killing was lawful by Parshendi tradition. This is irrelevant, however, and I don't feel like arguing this point is worth the effort, so I will concede the point.

 

 

- War was declared on the Parshendi for the above assassination of the Alethi King, Vs Mr.T's no such war existing for the ones he's murdering

 

Only four or five Parshendi were responsible for Gavilar's death, but the Alethi are killing them all. Seems similar enough to Taravangian.

 

 

- Said war is being conducted openly by known combatants, while no one knows who Szeth the murdering assassins master is

 

This is a difference between them, but why does this really matter?

 

 

So it's rather bemusing that you would attempt to say they are both pretty much comparable in any way except the end goal (united Alethkar for Dalinar / United Human Race for Mr T.)

 

Their methods are similar to me. Dalinar is attempting to lead Alethkar by killing anyone those who do not follow his orders (see: threatening the highprince with execution), and is attempting to unite the Highprinces by having them kill Parshendi together. Taravangian is killing anyone who could conceivably not follow his orders (maybe, we don't know his whole plan). There are differences, yes, but they seem rather similar in methods to me; Dalinar is just more open about what he's doing. Both are trying to unite people through slaughter.

 

 

So no matter how you try to make his actions into a threat...it remains clear that he did what he did to show an immensely paranoid king & nephew that he did not, and never would, murder said king & nephew (because if he ever had wanted to, he simply could have)

 

Why would he bother killing his nephew? Dalinar showed Elhokar that he didn't need to kill him - Elhokar is doing everything Dalinar asks. Dalinar leads in all but name... and he prefers that, because if Dalinar took over the throne, the other highprinces would rebel immediately. Having Elhokar remain as 'king' gives Dalinar's rule legitimacy, because he can just say that Elhokar's orders are legitimate because he's the real king, despite any arm twisting done by Dalinar. What Dalinar thought he was showing Elhokar was likely misinterpreted, because Elhokar is paranoid almost to the point of mental illness, and Dalinar had a really weird way to show Elhokar his loyalty.

 

Had Dalinar beaten up Elhokar and showed him he could kill him at any time and then asked Elhokar for his orders, it would have presented a nice picture of a loyal Dalinar. As it is, Dalinar beat up Elhokar and then demanded Elhokar give him more power and obey his orders. I think it's easy to see how Dalinar's actions could be misinterpreted by Elhokar.

 

Elhokar doesn't seem to trust Dalinar, he seems resigned to be his puppet.

 

 

Nothing (in terms of murder) - neither the codes, nor the Way of Kings allows him to murder...openly conquer maybe, but not murder.

 

If Elhokar refused to name him Highprince of War, you think Dalinar would have just accepted that and moved on with his life? I think we have different conceptions of the character, then. I believe Dalinar would have pushed Elhokar more and treated him like a child until Elhokar broke and said he'd name Dalinar Highprince of War. At the least, he would have protested repeatedly to Elhokar.

 

The Codes of War and the Way of Kings have nothing to say on torture/intimidation, so far as we know.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Chrono]

EDIT:

I think we have more time than you assume. Remember that there will be ten books, with a break of an unspecified amount of time between them. This allows for at least two years, probably more like five. Though, the Everstorm will arrive before that, so I don't know. If only we had any idea what the Everstorm wil be.

Also, I don't think that you're giving Taravangian enough credit. He hasn't spelled out his plan yet, and for all we know, he is not planning to set himself up as a leader. We have no idea what he's trying to do, except create chaos and restructure society in some way. Maybe he'll just make Kharbranth seem like a place of safety when all the rest of the world is in chaos, so people will flock to it. He'll start expanding slowly and gaining more power, and no one will be able to stop him. He doesn't even need to tell people about the Everstorm.

 

You have very good points: we don't know the entirety of Taravangian's plan. However, if you're going off of the 62 days deadline, as I was, I just don't think it will be enough time. Szeth is good, but is he good enough to kill Dalinar and rumble the world before that 62 day deadline? The other problem is, we don't even know what the 62 days message means. A lot of speculation about Taravangian is dangerous just for that reason alone.

 

However, even if Taravangian does not set himself up as a leader, all of my points may apply, with a bit of modification. People may flock to Kharbranth and not see Taravangian as a leader, but they may wonder how Kharbranth managed to be unscathed from all the assassination, war, and political unrest. When the entire world is falling apart, the one bastion of hope and security is going to fall under an awful lot of scrutiny. Is Taravangain's plan ready for that sort of scrutiny?

 

The main point I wished to make is that if people start poking in the wrong places - or if a person working in the Secret Hospital decides to spill the beans - it's all over. Taravangian has a good plan, and it is plausible that he can pull it off on a mentally strong day, but it has a very fragile base still. He can't make a single mistake, or it's over. I think it's an overly complicated plan, but again, different opinions contend against mine. 

 

Either way, I may not be giving Taravangian enough credit, but I'm still extremely skeptical of the success of his plan. The main thing is, will Szeth make it in time to kill Dalinar before the Everstorm? That is up to Brandon.

[vikorr]

Their methods are similar to me. Dalinar is attempting to lead Alethkar by killing anyone those who do not follow his orders (see: threatening the highprince with execution),

 

Uh...as can be clearly seen from his thoughts after...that was ill-conceived on his part, and something he was not going to carry through, and did not carry through. Mr T on the other hand, has thought his method through thoroughly, and does carry through to murder other leaders.

 

This is a difference between them, but why does this really matter?

 

 

One you can face / attack, let the world know - the other you can't.

 

One you can gather allies against - the other you can't.

 

One puts his public name & reputation to the action - the other doesn't.

 

Why would he bother killing his nephew? Dalinar showed Elhokar that he didn't need to kill him

 

Hmm...now you are changing your own statement - you were arguing that Dalinar threatened to kill Elokhar if Elokhar didn't do as he said. It is obvious from his thoughts and reasoning that was not what he was doing. His pummelling of Elokhar was to prove that he did not wish to kill him. This is obvious.

 

The Parshendi are not Alethi, do not swear allegiance to the Alethi monarch, and thus are not bound by their laws. 

 

They were on Alethi land, in the Alethi Palace, and I doubt anyone else would ever try argue they weren't bound by Alethi laws while there, not to murder the Alethi King.

 

Only four or five Parshendi were responsible for Gavilar's death, but the Alethi are killing them all. Seems similar enough to Taravangian

 

 4 or 5 of the Parshendi leaders...invited to lead a treaty...were responsible for Gavilar's death...knowing it would lead to open war...and Killed the King anyway.

 

Mr T...no comparable peoples have assasinated major leader in his country...with no declaration of war...is from secret... killing most all the leaders of other peoples.

 

No...those two statements aren't similar. They have some similarities...but so would a statement about two people who have killed someone else - one in self defense, and one because he felt like it. Bearing some similarities does not necessarily make something 'similar'.

 

There are so many differences it's amazing that you are attempting to argue how similar they are.

 

.........................

 

Now if you want to say that both are killing other people - that is accurate

And if you want to say that Dalinar wants to unite Alethkar and Mr T wants to unit the Human Race - that is accurate

 

Putting the 2 statements together though is misleading for numerous reason, and treating those two statements as the whole and method is also misleading for numerous reasons. They are however, accurate as separate statements.

Edited February 19, 2014 by vikorr

[JcStoneDog]

I have no desire to argue semantics, so I will concede the point and say that I thought my meaning was clear and apologize that it was not. I will use the correct word in the future.

 

 

I think its important to point out that the vast majority of know human societies have made a point of making that distinction. Its more than just semantics IMHO.

 

 

 

Only four or five Parshendi were responsible for Gavilar's death, but the Alethi are killing them all. Seems similar enough to Taravangian.

 

I have seen you make this point in other posts but groups are held responsible for the actions of their leaders. One of the roles of a leader is to speak for and represent their group. If an individual is acting outside that role then they are often held solely responsible. In this case the decision of the leadership to commit a high profile murder was supported by the group as highlighted by the Parshendi POV.

 

 

 

Their methods are similar to me. Dalinar is attempting to lead Alethkar by killing anyone those who do not follow his orders (see: threatening the highprince with execution), and is attempting to unite the Highprinces by having them kill Parshendi together. Taravangian is killing anyone who could conceivably not follow his orders (maybe, we don't know his whole plan). There are differences, yes, but they seem rather similar in methods to me; Dalinar is just more open about what he's doing. Both are trying to unite people through slaughter.

 

 

 

The difference is that currently Dalinar is threatening punishment for those that break the new rules he is putting into place as someone in authority in an agreed upon legal system and Taravangian is killing people without warning or reason(known to them or legal). Even if Dalinar is a bully he is a legal bully and so far all he has done is threaten other High Princes.

 

 

 

Why would he bother killing his nephew? Dalinar showed Elhokar that he didn't need to kill him - Elhokar is doing everything Dalinar asks. Dalinar leads in all but name... and he prefers that, because if Dalinar took over the throne, the other highprinces would rebel immediately. Having Elhokar remain as 'king' gives Dalinar's rule legitimacy, because he can just say that Elhokar's orders are legitimate because he's the real king, despite any arm twisting done by Dalinar. What Dalinar thought he was showing Elhokar was likely misinterpreted, because Elhokar is paranoid almost to the point of mental illness, and Dalinar had a really weird way to show Elhokar his loyalty.

 

Had Dalinar beaten up Elhokar and showed him he could kill him at any time and then asked Elhokar for his orders, it would have presented a nice picture of a loyal Dalinar. As it is, Dalinar beat up Elhokar and then demanded Elhokar give him more power and obey his orders. I think it's easy to see how Dalinar's actions could be misinterpreted by Elhokar.

 

Elhokar doesn't seem to trust Dalinar, he seems resigned to be his puppet.

 

 

If Elhokar refused to name him Highprince of War, you think Dalinar would have just accepted that and moved on with his life? I think we have different conceptions of the character, then. I believe Dalinar would have pushed Elhokar more and treated him like a child until Elhokar broke and said he'd name Dalinar Highprince of War. At the least, he would have protested repeatedly to Elhokar.

 

 

 

I agree with you 100% here. I think it is funny that Dalinar thinks this was a good trust building exercise. I agree with Dalinar's motives but the method was all wrong. It would not surprise me if Elhokar is the one that betrays Dalinar and gets them both killed in WoR.  

[Moogle]

Uh...as can be clearly seen from his thoughts after...that was ill-conceived on his part, and something he was not going to carry through, and did not carry through. Mr T on the other hand, has thought his method through thoroughly, and does carry through to murder other leaders.

 

Can you please quote these thoughts where he says he'd never do it? Because I just reread that part, and he thinks quite clearly that he would do it if he had the troops for it:

 

“Fine,” Dalinar snapped, “honor has no value to you. You will still obey, Aladar, because your king demands it. That is the only reason you need. You will do as told.”

“Or?” Aladar said.

“Ask Yenev.”

Aladar started as if slapped. Ten years back, Highprince Yenev had refused to accept the unification of Alethkar. At Gavilar’s order, Sadeas had dueled the man. And killed him.

“Threats?” Aladar asked.

“Yes.” Dalinar turned to look the shorter man in the eyes. “I’m done cajoling, Aladar. I’m done asking. When you disobey Elhokar, you mock my brother and what he stood for. I will have a unified kingdom.”

“Amusing,” Aladar said. “Good of you to mention Gavilar, as he didn’t bring the kingdom together with honor. He did it with knives in the back and soldiers on the field, cutting the heads off any who resisted. Are we back to that again, then? Such things don’t sound much like the fine words of your precious book.”

Dalinar ground his teeth, turning away to watch the battlefield. His first instinct was to tell Aladar he was an officer under Dalinar’s command, and take the man to task for his tone. Treat him like a recruit in need of correction.

But what if Aladar just ignored him? Would he force the man to obey? Dalinar didn’t have the troops for it.

He found himself annoyed—more at himself than at Aladar. He’d come on this plateau run not to fight, but to talk. To persuade. Navani was right. Dalinar needed more than brusque words and military commands to save this kingdom. He needed loyalty, not fear.

 

It seems to me that he would do it if he could, but he can't - so he has to persuade, instead.

 

 

One you can face / attack, let the world know - the other you can't.

 

One you can gather allies against - the other you can't.

 

One puts his public name & reputation to the action - the other doesn't.

 

Again, I fail to see the important difference here. Putting your public name and reputation on the line just seems plain stupid, because it gets assassins sent after you. If Dalinar was properly manipulating Elhokar from behind the scenes, he would never have to deal with the assassins and civil war that's coming for him. It would just look like Elhokar grew a spine.

 

 

Hmm...now you are changing your own statement - you were arguing that Dalinar threatened to kill Elokhar if Elokhar didn't do as he said. It is obvious from his thoughts and reasoning that was not what he was doing. His pummelling of Elokhar was to prove that he did not wish to kill him. This is obvious.

 

Sorry, I phrased this poorly. What I meant was that Elhokar would have seen it as a threat against his life. It is clear from Dalinar's point of view that he meant to show Elhokar he didn't mean to kill him, but to anyone who didn't have a window into Dalinar's brain, it would seem like he was forcibly taking the kingdom from Elhokar.

 

Again, I think if Dalinar wanted to show his loyalty to Elhokar, he could have done the stunt where he breaks Elhokar's Plate and then doesn't demand to be made Highprince of War. It just makes it seem entirely too much like Dalinar is blackmailing/threatening to kill Elhokar. It harms Dalinar politically, to the point where even Sadeas is thinking that Dalinar clearly wants the throne. If he just showed Elhokar that he could kill him if he wanted, and then didn't ask for any political power, that would be an effective show of loyalty, even to the paranoid Elhokar. As it is... it's a very strongly implied threat (from Elhokar's PoV) that if Dalinar doesn't get Highprince of War, he's going to beat up Elhokar. I would love a PoV from Elhokar.

 

 

They were on Alethi land, in the Alethi Palace, and I doubt anyone else would ever try argue they weren't bound by Alethi laws while there, not to murder the Alethi King.

 

To the Alethi, yes. I imagine non-Alethi might argue that Alethi law doesn't apply to non-Alethi.

 

 

 4 or 5 of the Parshendi leaders...invited to lead a treaty...were responsible for Gavilar's death...knowing it would lead to open war...and Killed the King anyway.

 

And those Parshendi were promptly hanged, save for Eshonai. All the innocent Parshendi are now being harmed by Dalinar in his quest for power.

 

 

Mr T...no comparable peoples have assasinated major leader in his country...with no declaration of war...is from secret... killing most all the leaders of other peoples.

 

Why does a declaration of war matter? Why does doing it from secret matter? People end up dead either way. I doubt it's much comfort to them that an official declaration of war happened or that they knew who their killer was. They're dead.

 

There are so many differences it's amazing that you are attempting to argue how similar they are.

 

I feel that both Dalinar and Taravangian are killing people in order to solidify their rule. I think it is an appropriate comparison to make, despite the fact that there are differences in who they're killing and why. I'm sorry that I couldn't make my case eloquently enough. I don't think we're really going to get through to each other on this one. If you'd like, we could call it quits after this post/your next post so as to stop derailing the thread (my fault entirely on that one).

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[vikorr]

I note that in arguing against the differences, you are now starting to point out the differences, even though you don't appear to realise it.

 

As for what the difference matters to the dead - it doesn't...nothing matters to the dead. It's the difference it makes to the living.

 

In any case, I have to head off to work.

[Aleksiel]

I agree with Moogle's arguments. Even Kaladin noted what Dalinar was doing at the meeting. I wonder why Navani (being such expert on politics) hasn't pointed out to him how his actions could be interpreted. 

 

Unfortunately, Elhokar is a rather weak king. He shouldn't have allowed to be guarded by men who haven't sworn to him and imo should ask Kaladin and his bridgemen to swear to him, but I suppose he's too afraid for this now. Why hasn't he ever tried to have his own military force, even a small one? I fear he will turn against Dalinar and I can't say I'd blame Elhokar for that.

 

My biggest problem with Dalinar is how delusional he is - truly believing how moral his action are; how arrogant he is, thinking he has the right to judge what's right and what's wrong. I hope Adolin will speak out and be the voice of reason like in WoK. He's the only one Dalinar would listen to. Dalinar is just so certain he's better than anyone else and it's easy to fall for that when reading his PoV. I think he still has a long to go to truly understand the 'journey before destination', because his means aren't as good as he believes. He's getting closer to being a tyrant rather than pillar of righteousness.

[soulcastJam]

My biggest problem with Dalinar is how delusional he is - truly believing how moral his action are; how arrogant he is, thinking he has the right to judge what's right and what's wrong. I hope Adolin will speak out and be the voice of reason like in WoK. He's the only one Dalinar would listen to. Dalinar is just so certain he's better than anyone else and it's easy to fall for that when reading his PoV. I think he still has a long to go to truly understand the 'journey before destination', because his means aren't as good as he believes. He's getting closer to being a tyrant rather than pillar of righteousness.

 

To be fair, it looks like Dalinar actually does have some form of "Divine Right".  And what I mean by that is that he repeatedly has visions that come from a higher power.  Who does he know that has a better right to judge what's right and what's wrong?  Yes, in our society many of us define right by what the consensus agrees on (Food for thought: Does that make the war with the Parshendi righteous?), but that's far from universal.    

 

I'm not really interested in arguing about relative morals and all that, as it's rehashed entirely too often.  But I do think that Dalinar's perspective arguably gives him a better view about the problems facing the people of his planet.  Can he be faulted for taking the visions seriously and trying to accomplish what he has been charged with doing?  

Edited February 19, 2014 by soulcastJam

[Aleksiel]

To be fair, it looks like Dalinar actually does have some form of "Divine Right".  And what I mean by that is that he repeatedly has visions that come from a higher power.  Who does he know that has a better right to judge what's right and what's wrong?  ....

 

The visions are broadcast to anyone who may hear them and what makes someone capable of having the visions is unclear. Dalinar hasn't been chosen to be the eleventh Herald of the Almighty.

[Bloodfalcon]

The visions are broadcast to anyone who may hear them and what makes someone capable of having the visions is unclear. Dalinar hasn't been chosen to be the eleventh Herald of the Almighty.

Where is any evidence that they are for everyone? To me it seems as though they are directed at one person, albeit one unknown person. 

[Aleksiel]

Where is any evidence that they are for everyone? To me it seems as though they are directed at one person, albeit one unknown person. 

 

Because the Almighty says he doesn't know who will receive the visions, so he's talking to whoever can hear him. I will add the quote when I find it.

 

 

I can’t leave much. Just these few images, given to you. Whoever you are.

 

And chapter 66:

 

 

A middle-aged potter. Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Bloodfalcon]

Because the Almighty says he doesn't know who will receive the visions, so he's talking to whoever can hear him. I will add the quote when I find it. And chapter 66:

I was hoping that is what you were referencing. Him saying that he doesn't know who will receive it doesn't mean it is for everyone. Perhaps that other person who has seen visions is special as well. I mean 2 out of the entire population is pretty selective. It could be that he broadcast it to everyone and only those to are just randomly able, but it could also be something like only people who have bonded this type of Honorspren can have such a connection with Honor that they see the visions. It could be selective without being directed. 

[Aleksiel]

I was hoping that is what you were referencing. Him saying that he doesn't know who will receive it doesn't mean it is for everyone. Perhaps that other person who has seen visions is special as well. I mean 2 out of the entire population is pretty selective. It could be that he broadcast it to everyone and only those to are just randomly able, but it could also be something like only people who have bonded this type of Honorspren can have such a connection with Honor that they see the visions. It could be selective without being directed. 

 

I think some misunderstanding occurred. I meant the visions are for everyone who can receive them with some unknown criteria of selection, not the whole population of Roshar.