[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

I'm saying this argument has been hashed out a thousand times. In a thousand threads. Like stick, it comes to a point where enough is enough. 

Brandon Sanderson will do the characters justice. Isn't that enough? Has he ever failed us? Has he ever been defined by the normal expectations? No. No he hasn't. If shalladin happens, it happens. If Shadolin continues, it continues. Brandon probably has something absolutely amazing in store for us in the next 8 books. I say, let it happen. Kolo? 

This doesn't have anything to do with trust in Brandon, but just discussing. Which is what a forum is for. Who are you to forbid someone to discuss about a topic?

[Calderis he/him]

@Steeldancer I'm not a fan of shipping discussions myself, but I still skim the threads for the occasional side tangents that have relevance to other discussions.

That said, especially in a thread with a topic title like this one... If you don't want to read it, don't. Other people are welcome too. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, SLNC said:

This doesn't have anything to do with trust in Brandon, but just discussing. Which is what a forum is for. Who are you to forbid someone to discuss about a topic?

I never said stop discussing it. I'm just asking in exasperation why we are still discussing it. 

It's this kind of topic where opinions get touted as facts the most, and arguments get nasty and don't convince anyone. There's also the thing that there are a dozen other threads on this topic. 

The last thing I intended here was to cause more tension in this thing. My post was intended to diffuse the tension this topic invariably creates. Now I was ninjad by Calderis, so I'll see what he has to say. 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Oookay. Let me explain myself here. I ship Shalladin not because I'm a Kaladin fan, or because I'm anti-Adolin or anything of the sort. I'm actually a huge Shallan fanboy, so I ship Shalladin because in their relationship I see Shallan at her most genuine.

Cool a Shallan fanboy. Shallan needs more fans. I like Shallan and want her to be happy even if she doesn't end up with the new highprince or brightlord brooding eyes.

Quote

Not once when she is interacting with Kaladin does she put on an act or a persona (excepting that very first, hilarious horn-eater princess). She is her true self around him, which she is not around Adolin. To quote the CW's show "Arrow", around Adolin she must become someone else, she must become something else. Adolin is endearing, he is charming, he is very handsome, but she can't let him see the true Shallan, the broken, hurting, frightened girl that doesn't understand why her mother tried to kill her, and why her father turned into a monster. Around Adolin she is "Shallan, the scholar" or "Shallan, the light-eyed girl" or "Brightness Radiant" even, but she keeps part of herself closed off because she is afraid. Around Kaladin she is genuine.

I'm not so sure she is genuine with Kal, because she is not genuine with herself. I will acquiesce except for Pattern, Kaladin is the character she has shown the most of her truth self to. I'm not dead set against them ending up together in the end. If Brandon can make it work, great. I just have doubts they are the best match. I did enjoy their bantering. Kal and Shallan remind me of Beatrice and Benedick from Shakespeare's "Much a Do About Nothing." However, even though Beatrice and Benedick end up together in that play, I never bought their romance, and disliked the two more as a couple.

I like her better with Adolin because both of them make the other one want to be a better person and they do work well together. Maybe she will grow to have this kind of relationship with Kaladin as they work together as KR, but Adolin has to be out of Urithru before either would pursue anything serious. They might flirt, but I don't think either would intentionally try to start anything as things are now. They both care for Adolin too much.

What will determine if Shallan and Kaladin can make it work is when and how she finds out about Heleran. If she finds out before they start a relationship and from Kal, then maybe they might make it. However, for the sake of conflict and drama, I think Brandon won't unleash the Heleran bomb until the worst possible time. 

Still, if someone killed the brother I loved and idolized, even if I could understand why he did it, I can't imagine having an intimate relationship with that person. Heleran's death is a hard thing to accept for Shallan, even if Kaladin tells her the right way.

Quote

I could see that. Jasnah might actually be better tempered to suit Kaladin, but I honestly have a hard time seeing Jasnah with anyone. It's kind of implied in WoK that she already had a romance that fell apart when she tells Shallan about the Book of Endless Pages (not sure if that's the right title).

I didn't think Jasnah had a romantic interest in the ardent who gave her that book. My feeling was she felt the most accepted by the devotarie and she liked its philosophy. But even if she already had a romance that does not preclude her having another one. 

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

I'm saying this argument has been hashed out a thousand times. In a thousand threads. Like stick, it comes to a point where enough is enough. 

Brandon Sanderson will do the characters justice. Isn't that enough? Has he ever failed us? Has he ever been defined by the normal expectations? No. No he hasn't. If shalladin happens, it happens. If Shadolin continues, it continues. Brandon probably has something absolutely amazing in store for us in the next 8 books. I say, let it happen. Kolo? 

I'm just asking in exasperation why we are still discussing it. 

I started this thread because I am tired of all the Shalladin hate. Four times in the "Scenes that you do not want to see in OB" thread people say they don't want to see Kaladin and Shallan get to together and that is not the only place I have read such irritation with the idea. Even though I prefer Adolin and Shallan together, I don't want people to get upset if Brandon decides to move Kaladin and Shallan closer. I agree with you. Trust Brandon and it will be awesome even if they all end up single in the end. I just wanted to point out you can have Shallan in relationships at different time with both Kalladin and Adolin without it being the dreaded love triangle. Brandon will make it work and it will be as awesome as Lift.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I like her better with Adolin because both of them make the other one want to be a better person and they do work well together.

I never understood this argument. Adolin is pretty much still the same as always, as is Shallan. And where did they ever work together?

In the chasm scene alone, Kaladin and Shallan have proven that the same counts for them. Kaladin actually began to see lighteyes in a different way, because of Shallan. And Shallan began to respect him in some ways. And they have proven to be capable of working together, down there, in the chasm.

Doesn't that count?

[Aleksiel]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I never understood this argument. Adolin is pretty much still the same as always, as is Shallan. And where did they ever work together?

In the chasm scene alone, Kaladin and Shallan have proven that the same counts for them. Kaladin actually began to see lighteyes in a different way, because of Shallan. And Shallan began to respect him in some ways. And they have proven to be capable of working together, down there, in the chasm.

Doesn't that count?

Where exactly does Kaladin say he sees lighteyes differently after Shallan? Because that's not how I remember it.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Where exactly does Kaladin say he sees lighteyes differently after Shallan? Because that's not how I remember it.

He acknowledges, that Shallan is as broken as he is. He acknowledges that his worldview, that all lighteyes pretty much are happy is wrong. I'm sorry, but I won't search for the exact text passage now. I'm not writing a dissertation.

[Aleksiel]

Just now, SLNC said:

He acknowledges, that Shallan is as broken as he is. He acknowledges that his worldview, that all lighteyes pretty much are happy is wrong. I'm sorry, but I won't search for the exact text passage now. I'm not writing a dissertation.

He acknowledged Shallan is different, there's nothing about him changing his opinion on lighteyes in general after the chasm. 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

13 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I never understood this argument. Adolin is pretty much still the same as always, as is Shallan. And where did they ever work together?

In the chasm scene alone, Kaladin and Shallan have proven that the same counts for them. Kaladin actually began to see lighteyes in a different way, because of Shallan. And Shallan began to respect him in some ways. And they have proven to be capable of working together, down there, in the chasm.

Doesn't that count?

Adolin has said several times he wants to make it work with Shallan to her and others. He isn't just saying oh well if it doesn't work out it's not my fault like he has with other relationships.

Shallan's desire to be better sadly takes her in the wrong direction, that will be a problem no matter who she with. Still she has said many times publicly and privately that she wants it to work with Adolin.

I love the chasm scenes, but the character who changed and grew in that sequence is Kaladin. For Shallan it was more of a proving trial. She is the one who saved Kaladin. I think she discovered Kaladin was more than a grimace, but she was still thinking of getting back to Adolin during the whole time. Yes, Kaladin grew an attraction to Shallan in the chasm, one he will never admit to anyone else, not even Syl, but I don't think the experience developed the same feelings for Kaladin in Shallan.   

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

He acknowledged Shallan is different, there's nothing about him changing his opinion on lighteyes in general after the chasm. 

The fact, that he acknowledges Shallan as broken is enough for him to see, that not all lighteyes are as happy as he thought. Simple logic.

I think you're confusing lighteyes with the social structure. Kaladin can change his perception of lighteyes (Elhokar is another example: Kaladin thinks, that Elhokar is a bad king, but at least he is trying. He also sees the problems Elhokar has. And that was after the chasm scene.), but doesn't have to like social structure of oppression.

[OathKeeper]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

I never said stop discussing it. I'm just asking in exasperation why we are still discussing it. 

It's this kind of topic where opinions get touted as facts the most, and arguments get nasty and don't convince anyone. There's also the thing that there are a dozen other threads on this topic. 

The last thing I intended here was to cause more tension in this thing. My post was intended to diffuse the tension this topic invariably creates. Now I was ninjad by Calderis, so I'll see what he has to say. 

Sorry for ribbing you. My point was just that there are so many threads on this forum that you have to kind of plan on plenty of them being uninteresting to you and then tolerantly leave them be. Where we're getting new releases each week that dramatically change our views of the characters, I'm glad we start with a clean slate periodically rather than reviving some old shipping thread. 

Your cause for exasperation may be (and apparently is) another man's (or several fans') engaging conversation. 

Also it's a scientific fact that Shalladin is stupid and I hate everyone who disagrees. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

[Guest]

 

5 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Adolin has said several times he wants to make it work with Shallan to her and others. He isn't just saying oh well if it doesn't work out it's not my fault like he has with other relationships.

Shallan's desire to be better sadly takes her in the wrong direction, that will be a problem no matter who she with. Still she has said many times publicly and privately that she wants it to work with Adolin.

Wait a minute. I know that Adolin is trying to make it work with Shallan, but I don't see how it makes him a better person. It is more because Shallan is the first woman he has a genuine interest in. The other relationships more or less fell apart, because he wasn't really interested in them. He only courted, because he was expected to

I understood "they work well together" as in them making a good team... Which I don't really see so far.

[Aleksiel]

Just now, SLNC said:

The fact, that he acknowledges Shallan as broken is enough for him to see, that not all lighteyes are as happy as he thought. Simple logic.

I think you're confusing lighteyes with the social structure. Kaladin can change his perception of lighteyes (Elhokar is another example: Kaladin thinks, that Elhokar is a bad king, but at least he is trying. He also sees the problems Elhokar has. And that was after the chasm scene.), but doesn't have to like social structure of oppression.

I don't think Kaladin sees much difference between the social institution and lighteyes in general. Sure, he can change his opinion of certain people - Dalinar got the benefit of the doubt from the start which was unique, then Adolin and Shallan, but Kaladin remained prejudiced against lighteyes. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I don't think Kaladin sees much difference between the social institution and lighteyes in general. Sure, he can change his opinion of certain people - Dalinar got the benefit of the doubt from the start which was unique, then Adolin and Shallan, but Kaladin remained prejudiced against lighteyes. 

Which is why I used the word "began". It is an on going process.

Edited September 29, 2017 by SLNC

[Alderant she/her]

28 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Where exactly does Kaladin say he sees lighteyes differently after Shallan? Because that's not how I remember it.

I believe his comment was more applicable to Shallan and Adolin, but near the end of Words of Radiance (after saving the king) and in the beginning of Oathbringer we do see that he has begun to shift in his view of lighteyes. I think it's in his first Oathbringer chapter that he starts thinking ill of lighteyes again and goes "Oh. Right. I'm one of them now," and though he decks Roshone, he doesn't show the same antagonism he's had for the last two books. I imagine part of that has to do with Shallan, since she showed him that she, a lighteyes, understood his pain and life of hardship, of living a broken life, better than pretty much anyone he had met until that point.

That said...

1 hour ago, eveorjoy said:

Maybe she will grow to have this kind of relationship with Kaladin as they work together as KR, but Adolin has to be out of Urithru before either would pursue anything serious. They might flirt, but I don't think either would intentionally try to start anything as things are now. They both care for Adolin too much.

I agree 100%. To do otherwise would be to replicate the same tiresome triangle trope, and Brandon has said he's not fond of that either.

8 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I love the chasm scenes, but the character who changed and grew in that sequence is Kaladin. For Shallan it was more of a proving trial. She is the one who saved Kaladin. I think she discovered Kaladin was more than a grimace, but she was still thinking of getting back to Adolin during the whole time. Yes, Kaladin grew an attraction to Shallan in the chasm, one he will never admit to anyone else, not even Syl, but I don't think the experience developed the same feelings for Kaladin in Shallan.

Again, let's not overlook the significance of Shallan's actions here, either. Shallan opened up to Kaladin in a way she has done for no one else. Yes, she was still thinking about Adolin, but there's a bit of thought after on her part that shows she's seeing Kaladin in a different light as well. Their experiences create a bond, one that I personally would like to see enhanced and expounded on. I'm not discounting the importance of Shallan's relationship with Adolin, I just personally want to see that angle explored more. If it doesn't happen until after Adolin leaves, and she ultimately ends up with Adolin anyway, that's fine.

2 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

Also it's a scientific fact that Shalladin is stupid and I hate everyone who disagrees. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

Eat crem.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

 

Wait a minute. I know that Adolin is trying to make it work with Shallan, but I don't see how it makes him a better person. It is more because Shallan is the first woman he has a genuine interest in. The other relationships more or less fell apart, because he wasn't really interested in them. He only courted, because he was expected to

I understood "they work well together" as in them making a good team... Which I don't really see so far.

If I remember correctly, he did hope to have success with every girl he courted in WoK. It already a big improvement for him to take a look at himself after meeting Shallan and realize the problem with his past relationships might lie with him. He didn't start to feel that way until after he got to know Shallan. So she he is trying to improve himself for her and that makes him a better person. They likely would have a good chance is not for the fact that he is going to be exiled for killing Sadea. But after he revives his blade and becomes and Edgedancer, and Shallan deals with her mountain of issues, everything will be just fine. 

7 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Again, let's not overlook the significance of Shallan's actions here, either. Shallan opened up to Kaladin in a way she has done for no one else. Yes, she was still thinking about Adolin, but there's a bit of thought after on her part that shows she's seeing Kaladin in a different light as well. Their experiences create a bond, one that I personally would like to see enhanced and expounded on. I'm not discounting the importance of Shallan's relationship with Adolin, I just personally want to see that angle explored more. If it doesn't happen until after Adolin leaves, and she ultimately ends up with Adolin anyway, that's fine.

Fair enough. 

[Dreamstorm]

59 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I love the chasm scenes, but the character who changed and grew in that sequence is Kaladin. For Shallan it was more of a proving trial. She is the one who saved Kaladin. I think she discovered Kaladin was more than a grimace, but she was still thinking of getting back to Adolin during the whole time. Yes, Kaladin grew an attraction to Shallan in the chasm, one he will never admit to anyone else, not even Syl, but I don't think the experience developed the same feelings for Kaladin in Shallan.   

I have no idea Shallan's deep, inner feelings for Kaladin.  (Though I tend to agree they are currently either non-existent or far below the surface as we don't hear her give much thought to them.)  But, I don't think you can accurately state Shallan didn't change and grow in the chasm scenes.  Our author, through placing the character in trying situations and through her spontaneous admission, had Shallan do several things which were extraordinary for her character, namely admit she (1) "collects faces" (Shallan is herself shocked at this admission), (2) has a perfect memory and can translate that into drawing, (3) has a shardblade and (4) killed her father.  Whether or not these huge (for Shallan's character) admissions/truths mean anything vis a vis her feelings for Kaladin remains to be seen, but I don't think you can argue they are not significant in Shallan's personal growth and development as our author very pointedly chose for it to happen during one event and in front of one other character.  (Keep in mind she hasn't even admitted (4) to anyone else, and of the above, that was the one which was objectively not required to be disclosed by the stressful situation.)

Btw, if I have a ship, it's Kaldolin, so I'm neutral in who end up with Shallan (if either of them), if that matters  

Edited September 29, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

It already a big improvement for him to take a look at himself after meeting Shallan and realize the problem with his past relationships might lie with him. He didn't start to feel that way until after he got to know Shallan.

I'm still more or less convinced, that he just was oblivious to the fact, that he unconsciously sabotaged his other relationships, because he wasn't keeping track of them - indicating a lack of interest. Shallan is the first woman, who truly interests him. It could have been any woman, his betterment in this instance wasn't exactly because of Shallan telling him something or so. It was just because, she intrigues him.

[+robardin he/him]

 

23 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

In Shallan's current mental state, she'll probably just create a different persona for each of the boys... 

All right! 

All aboard the Shallan Ship Express! 

Making stops at Shallabsal, Shadolin, Shalladin, Shallagaz, and Cooooooocamonga!

 

[Alderant she/her]

29 minutes ago, robardin said:

 

All right! 

All aboard the Shallan Ship Express! 

Making stops at Shallabsal, Shadolin, Shalladin, Shallagaz, and Cooooooocamonga!

 

I would really like to see an interaction between Brightness Radiant and Kaladin. Just saying, though for reasons I've previously stated regarding Shallan's nature, I doubt that would happen. She'd revert to Shallan as soon as he opened his mouth.

And seriously...Shallagaz??? Blech.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

On 2017-09-28 at 9:35 PM, eveorjoy said:

What if the triangle was between Adolin, Shallan, and Mraize?

I honestly don´t think Adolin would survive that.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I honestly don´t think Adolin would survive that.

Have some faith in the boy. He did fight two shardbearers and win with damaged shardplate. Imagine when he is able to go gliding around. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Just now, eveorjoy said:

Have some faith in the boy. He did fight two shardbearers and win with damaged shardplate. Imagine when he is able to go gliding around. 

Mraize would slit his throat while he was asleep. 

Shallaraize is my new ship.

[Hischier]

2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

He acknowledged Shallan is different, there's nothing about him changing his opinion on lighteyes in general after the chasm. 

It wasn't expressly stated, but that was my interpretation as well.  It'll be a slow process though and It's something I expect him to struggle with still, but not to the extent we saw in WoR. 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Shallaraize is my new ship.

Burn it! Burn it with fire!