[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[+eveorjoy]

Give me a moment to put on my shardplate. Now before you Shaolin shippers light your torches and raise your pitchforks, I am one of you. I want Shallan to end up with Adolin in the end.

But what about my title.? Well, I think the idea of a Kaladin and Shallan pairing is getting an unnatural amount of hate. In fact, if there are any Shalladin fans out there, I am sorry your ship is being so thoroughly wrecked by this odium toward this pairing. (Sorry I had to.)

Kaladin and Shallan will not work in the end. Besides the issues that they have little in common, don't speak the same social language at times, and have spren who are as diametrical as two spren can be, Kaladin killed her brother. Even if Shallan understands and forgives, I don't think she could be in an intimate relationship with someone who killed Heleran. 

So if the two begin dating their relationship is doomed. However, I don't hear this as the reason people are complaining about the pairing.

"NO LOVE TRIANGLES!" is the cry. Why? Because it is a tired trope, you say. I don't think that is your problem. What if the triangle was between Adolin, Shallan, and Mraize? Some might still cry no love triangles, but I don't think the call would be as loud. I think the problem isn't the dreaded "love triangle" as much as it is we are all avid readers and are tired of seeing the main hero end up with the main heroine. It would be refreshing to see a man and woman who were central characters just remain friends. I get this desire. I am writing a whole series with the goal of having the main hero and heroine only be friends. Still, this is an expectation less avid readers do often have for heroes and heroines. Consider all the fans who were disappointed Harry Potter did not end up with Hermione Granger. I was happy to see Ron ended up with Hermione (Ron from the books at least) and would have hated to see her end up with Harry. But for many, the Harry Potter series was their first obsession, so naturally, they imagined the great love story of Harry and Hermione. I doubt SA can be a gateway series for many because of the learning curve that is WoK. Therefore a majority of SA fans have seen the hero and heroine end up together in a plethora of stories, and we are tired of the trope as much as love triangles. 

You might be tired of it, but that does not make it a bad thing Brandon should not do.

Shalladin would help Shaolin become a lasting relationship.

That might sound like an odd statement, but it is true. I think we worry about Shalladin because Kal is a great guy and why would Shallan leave him once they were together. Further, it would destroy the budding bromance between Kaladin and Adolin. However, I don't think either of these fears would come to pass if Shallan and Kaladin flirted for a few chapters to half a book and it would bring great conflict, but not be a true love triangle, at least not in the classic sense. I have already established why Kaladin and Shallan are doomed as a couple, so I am not going to go over that again. However, I don't think Kaladin and Shallan flirting will harm his friendship with Adolin at all. I don't think Kal would pursue a relationship with Shallan until Adolin is out of the picture because of the friendship (and she's lighteyed, or that is what Kaladin will tell himself until Adolin is exiled).   

Right now Shaolin is also a doomed relationship but not forever. Both Adolin and Shallan are really messed up people. I don't think either could have a healthy relationship right now until they address their issues. And the issue that will temporarily break them up is Adolin killing Sadeas. Brandon has hinted as much in chapter 13 of Oathbringer.

Quote

 

“Neither of us is going to mess this up,” she said to him, squeezing his hand. “Despite what might at times seem like our best efforts otherwise.”

“Promise?” he asked.

“I promise. Let’s look at this notebook of yours and see what it says about our murderer.”

 

Besides the fact that Shallan saying neither of them will mess this up sounds like famous last words, the last topic of the chapter is Adolin's hidden crime. Putting the ideas of them breaking up and the killing of Sadeas together suggests this is how their relationship will end, but not forever.

Now I don't think Shallan is going to break up with Adolin when she finds out what he did. In a twisted way that might even bring them closer to together. No, I think this will break them up because Adolin is going to be exiled from Urithru and likely Alethkar as well and that will be the end of the engagement. Some would argue Adolin will get away with it, but the way the story is structured and the hints Brandon is dropping point to Adolin needing to face some consequences for his actions. Still, that is a debate for another thread. Just go with me on the fact murder of Sadeas will push Adolin away from Shallan for a time.

After that happens Kaladin and Shallan may consider a relationship with each other. They might look past their different backgrounds and go for it because they are both KR so why not give it a try. At that point, it will not be a true love triangle. Adolin and Shallan will be over with, and Adolin will be somewhere out in Roshar reviving his blade or something.  Still, Shallan is such a metal mess that her time with Kaladin will not go well even before she learns he killed Heleran. She is going to need to face her issues, and this will damage the relationship she is in no matter whom she is with at the time. I'd much rather have her self-discovery ruin Shalladin than Shaodin. Let her go through this learning period with Kaladin, have them both part as better people, and hopefully still friends even after she learns the truth. Then Shallan will hopefully be ready for a stable relationship.

After this happens, I hope Adolin will return to Urithru as an Edgedancer with his a restored blade (yes he would make a great Edgedancer, shut up) and he will reestablish his relationship with Shallan. Then they would be on equal footing as KR and more mature people. Thus, the relationship will last the rest of their lives.

As for Kal, he will be happy for them because he knows "they fit" and he will have moved on, but hopefully remain their friend.

I'm likely wrong about all of this, but it could work.

So please don't demand "no Shalladin." It might be an interesting source of conflict, and I trust Brandon to show it to us in an engaging way. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by eveorjoy

[Aleksiel]

In Shallan's current mental state, she'll probably just create a different persona for each of the boys... 

Yes, I hate love triangles no matter how well written and I want to have a friendship between main characters of the opposite sex. However, if 

Quote

Adolin will be somewhere out in Roshar reviving his blade

then it's all good  I have my priorities 

[kari-no-sugata]

I want to be open to unexpected future developments but the main reason why I'm pro Shallan x Adolin is that they make a great couple already. I don't want to see that ruined. In short, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

That being said, I'd be fine if Shallan and Kaladin end up as friends. However, I'm not sure why they'd have to go through some kind of sort-of-but-not-quite romance for that. I'd also be fine with Shallan teasing Kaladin (I'd be disappointed if she doesn't) though I'm not sure how I'd feel if she genuinely flirted with him for real as herself (if she was Veil at the time I'm not sure how I'd feel).

[Dreamstorm]

I find the hatred towards the Shallan-Kaladin pairing fascinating, especially when I don't sense the vehement dislike of the love triangle in Mistborn (I posted a Q&A about this actually), which is my mind was never as emotionally developed as this one already is.  (Apparently there is one in Elantris too, but I haven't read that.)  I see a couple things at play:

1. People on this forum generally like Adolin better than Kaladin (my guess is if there was a poll about who posters would rather have killed off, Kaladin would win easily), so as a love triangle is often posed as some sort of "competition", the general sentiment is that posters (or maybe the most vocal posters) would like to see Adolin "win".  Oddly, I don't get the sense people generally like Shallan much, but winning an undesirable prize is better than losing I guess 
2. The fact many people (most people?) becomes more entrenched in their views the more they have to defend them (i.e. our current political climate ).  As a new SA reader, I've read older threads on this love triangle fairly recently, and the views were way more balanced immediately after WoR came out (and even the viewpoints of some posters who have current strong views were more balanced then.)  I agree with someone in the main thread who said the slow rollout of chapters isn't helping this!
3. Fantasy fans aren't big on romance in general, and the worry is that the romance will consume the entire plot if two of your headline characters have one.  This one is pretty self-explanatory, and I don't find in the past Brandon has developed romances all that well (i.e. Mistborn book 1, some utterly adorable moments, but a massive logical leap from infatuation to sudden "love" in my mind), so I get it.

So that's just my take - I find it interesting, and a bit baffling, that half of the "scenes I'd never want to see" posts are about not wanting the Shallan-Kaladin romance - it's such a small part of the overall scope of the books!

[Alderant]

Okay, I am one of those aforementioned "Shalladin" people.

Here's my thoughts on the matter: I think Shadolin is going to fall apart, at least in this part of the story, and the revelation that Adolin not only killed Sadeas, but murdered him in a fit of rage, is going to be the final wedge that drives them apart. They may end up back together, they may not. And before I get started let me make it clear that although I am a Shalladin shipper, I do think that Shallan and Adolin are cute together, and that ultimately I will be happy with whomever Shallan ends up with, because she's my favorite anyway.

Here's why I think what I do:

First, mentally, Adolin is going to fall apart. He's showing signs of this already. He murdered a high prince in a fit of rage and hatred, then hid the fact. Adolin has previously demonstrated that when things get tough and stressful, he pulls away from those around him--he remains amicable, but his numerous courtships, his despair over Dalinar when he thought Dalinar was going mad, his hurting over Sureblood, he simply doesn't talk to others about what is inside. He hides, he withdraws, and ultimately pushes people away rather than letting them see him for who he is, and as much as I love Dalinar, Adolin's father is a huge cause of that. He's grown up as the prized son, and now he's not only done something bad, but he's snapped and done something terrible. If Adolin had previously demonstrated an ability to confide up until now, he might be able to take what is coming, but unless he majorly changes and starts confiding in Shallan, the stress of everything is going to cause him to break down.

Second, Shallan hates murderers. This is an important aspect of her character--she was horrified by Jasnah's actions in WoK, and Adolin's actions are too much like her father's. Remember that Shallan's upbringing has caused a lot of scars and she shows some signs of PTSD, and when her father got angry he beat and ultimately ended up murdering. His rage grew uncontrollable, and no matter how well their relationship progresses, the eventual revelation of Adolin's murdering Sadeas will horrify her and lead her to doubt whether or not Adolin will end up the same way.

Third, while their relationship is cute and charming, there is no glue to hold them together. Shallan's interest in Adolin is very much physical--the most recent chapters have demonstrated that. She cares for him, but right now she doesn't really click with Adolin. Not yet, anyway. I think, or at least this is my opinion, that Shallan wants to be with Adolin because Adolin represents the life she could have had. He represents normalcy in a way that she has never had. Kaladin doesn't represent that--Kaladin is dark, brooding, dour...etc. Adolin is happy, optimistic, and most importantly attractive, but there is nothing so far to say that Shallan and Adolin would hold up for a length of time.

Fourth,

47 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Kaladin and Shallan will not work in the end. Besides the issues that they have little in common, don't speak the same social language at times, and have spren who are diametrical as two spren can be, Kaladin killed her brother. Even if Shallan understands and forgives, I don't think she could be in an intimate relationship with someone who killed Heleran.

I disagree with this. The reason us Shalladin people exist is because Shallan and Kaladin seem to click better to us than Shallan and Adolin. Shallan's wit goes right over Adolin's head. Kaladin's mother had a very similar wit to Shallan's, and he reacts to it in remarkable ways. Shallan is academic and looks at situations from an artistic perspective--Adolin looks at things much like his father: as a soldier. He has a hard time looking at things in the detached, logical way that is an academic. Kaladin showed not only an interest in her art, but also has more of an academic mind from his years training as a surgeon under his father. Yes, Shallan and Kaladin don't always speak the same social language at times, but neither do Shallan and Adolin, and for that matter neither do Kaladin and Adolin.

Also, with regards to Heleran, I'm really not sure how Shallan will take that. It seems to me almost that it will be one of her truths, something like "Kaladin killed Heleran", but here's the thing: Shallan's a smart girl. She heard Kaladin's story, and will eventually make the connection to Kaladin killing Heleran. That will come out. But for Kaladin, killing Heleran wasn't an act of hatred or rage, or even greed--it was an act of protection. He was trying to protect his liege lord and his men. Heleran was slaughtering his people on the field, and Kaladin did what he had to do to save them. When things finally come down, I think all of that will make a difference to Shallan. Adolin, on the otherhand and as I've already said, murdered Sadeas in a fit of rage. He wasn't protecting Dalinar, he wasn't stopping conflict--he killed Sadeas out of hatred. And I really think that will scare Shallan.

[Jace21]

I personally am not particularly invested in either of Shadolin or Shalladin as far as the SA end game goes.

Yes, I prefer to read Adolin more than Kaladin, but that would be the case regardless of which Shallan was romantically interested in (since I actually prefer both of them to Shallan anyway).

What I find so interesting is the way the Shalladin ship has generated so much momentum already, based on what I see as very little support from the text.

Before anyone shoots me, I have read all the preview chapters and recently finished a re-read of tWoK and WoR. I am 100% of the opinion that Kaladin likes Shallan and would be open to a relationship, at least once he finishes getting over his class prejudices.

However I have never felt like Shallan was romantically interested in Kal. She acknowledges that he is ruggedly handsome, but as a statement of fact, not in a particularly romantic manner. In the very next sentence she says about how his intensity frightens her. Later on she is musing about said intensity amd misses what Adolin is saying. On the surface this seems to promote the ship, but again, there may be a vague interest yet the musing is about something that previously worried her and seems more intellectual than romantic. The blush that followed is something a lot of people would do if they realised they spaced out mid-conversation, regardless of the reason.

And the brightlord brooding eyes comment just seems like something she would think about someome she had a friendly yet antagonstic relationship with.

As I said, I have nothing against the main male and female characters romance trope, I trust that whatever Brandon has planned it will be well written and make perfect sense.

I just dont see how, at this point, some people seem to think that Shalladin is well supported and makes more sense that Shadolin. 

I really like the proposed path in the OP though, it fits with what we have seen so far and would allow all 3 characters to develop without an actual love triangle.

[Andy92]

I personally never understood the Shallan/Adolin betrothal too much personally. 

Jasnah: "You tried to steal my soulcaster (even though it was fake) while lying being my back, and you got yourself poisoned by an ardent that you fell too hard for while showing poor judgment. I think you'd be a great match for my cousin." 

[Jace21]

16 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I personally never understood the Shallan/Adolin betrothal too much personally. 

Jasnah: "You tried to steal my soulcaster (even though it was fake) while lying being my back, and you got yourself poisoned by an ardent that you fell too hard for while showing poor judgment. I think you'd be a great match for my cousin." 

I agree it seems a bit of an odd move. I always saw Dalinars explanation that Jasnah hoped to tie Shallan to the Kholins as the main explanation, possibly also to alleviate her worry about her family so she can focus and contrubute more to the war effort, such as it is.

Afterall if I knew the end of the world was coming and I knew that 1 other person and myself had powers with no guarantee anyone else would, you can bet I would do anything possible to get that person on my side and keep them there.

[kari-no-sugata]

27 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I personally never understood the Shallan/Adolin betrothal too much personally. 

Jasnah: "You tried to steal my soulcaster (even though it was fake) while lying being my back, and you got yourself poisoned by an ardent that you fell too hard for while showing poor judgment. I think you'd be a great match for my cousin." 

Given that Jasnah forgave Shallan for what she did in tWoK it's a reasonable move. Shallan was the only proto-Radiant Jasnah knew about at the time (as far as we know), which is a precious resource for her. She also had hopes for Shallan's abilities in general. Basically, for Jasnah it would be better to have Shallan as a trustworthy ally - and promoting such a thing would obviously help and give Shallan strong reasons to properly support Jasnah long term (since they'd be family). It's also worth pointing out that Navani pushed things forward strongly herself because she wanted someone for Adolin and if it's someone that Jasnah approves of then I'm sure Navani would too. It's quite clear that Jasnah approving of someone almost never happens.

[mariapapadia]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

1. People on this forum generally like Adolin better than Kaladin (my guess is if there was a poll about who posters would rather have killed off, Kaladin would win easily), so as a love triangle is often posed as some sort of "competition", the general sentiment is that posters (or maybe the most vocal posters) would like to see Adolin "win".  Oddly, I don't get the sense people generally like Shallan much, but winning an undesirable prize is better than losing I guess 

I think this is a very good point and summarizes my feelings exactly. When it comes to the shipping wars, I am under the impression people are fighting for who they like better, Shallan becomes a bit optional. Personally I liked both Kaladin and Adolin when I first read the books and I found both relationships intriguing and I wanted to see more. I still want and try to be as unbiased as I can, but one downside for me is that I get put off by the constant arguing and debating. I will either start avoiding these endless debates or switch to option c) none of the above. There is a saying in my language, that may sound stupid in english, that when two fight, the third will win. 

[+eveorjoy]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I want to be open to unexpected future developments but the main reason why I'm pro Shallan x Adolin is that they make a great couple already. I don't want to see that ruined. In short, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

They are a great couple. That's why I don't want Shallan's hang ups to ruin them. Neither of them are ready for a permanent relationship now. So they take a break and she destroys another relationship on her path to self-discovery and then she gets back with Adolin.

It doesn't have to be with Kaladin, though Brandon seems to be seeding that. I think Kaladin and Shallan could be great friends without dating each other. But their doomed relationship could be useful to both of their characters.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

People on this forum generally like Adolin better than Kaladin (my guess is if there was a poll about who posters would rather have killed off, Kaladin would win easily), so as a love triangle is often posed as some sort of "competition", the general sentiment is that posters (or maybe the most vocal posters) would like to see Adolin "win".  Oddly, I don't get the sense people generally like Shallan much, but winning an undesirable prize is better than losing I guess 

I don't care for the suggestion that the woman is the object in this three way relationship.  But I will put that to the side. 

Kaladin is my favorite character and, sorry Adolin fans, but I'd rather Adolin die before Kaladin. I think Kaladin is much more engaging character. Adolin is currently only interesting in his relationships. He existed in book one as a foil to Dalinar(sadly my least favorite part of WoK, sorry.) If I remember correctly, people didn't like Adolin very much until WoR. In book two he became interesting as he interacted with Shallan and grew a bromance with Kaladin. Adolin has the potential to be an interesting character in his own right, after killing Sadeas. Finally, he has an issue to deal with that does not involve another character. What he did will affect everyone, but it is his burden alone to bare. And he has snapped because of it, which is why he will revive his blade and become an Edgedancer. Yay!

But I don't think more people like Adolin over Kaladin. I just thing more people like Shallan with Adolin over Shallan with Kaladin, me included.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Okay, I am one of those aforementioned "Shalladin" people.

You are a brave one. Here have a shardshield. 

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

The reason us Shalladin people exist is because Shallan and Kaladin seem to click better to us than Shallan and Adolin. Shallan's wit goes right over Adolin's head. Kaladin's mother had a very similar wit to Shallan's, and he reacts to it in remarkable ways. Shallan is academic and looks at situations from an artistic perspective--Adolin looks at things much like his father: as a soldier. He has a hard time looking at things in the detached, logical way that is an academic. Kaladin showed not only an interest in her art, but also has more of an academic mind from his years training as a surgeon under his father. Yes, Shallan and Kaladin don't always speak the same social language at times, but neither do Shallan and Adolin, and for that matter neither do Kaladin and Adolin.

I think Shallan could fit with Kaladin, but I think she fits better with Adolin. I agree Shallan and Adolin will likely break up, but after both characters grow a bit I think they will come back together; as long as Shallan is not with Kaladin.

I think Kaladin killing Heleran made it impossible for them to be together. I will explain after your next quote.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Also, with regards to Heleran, I'm really not sure how Shallan will take that. It seems to me almost that it will be one of her truths, something like "Kaladin killed Heleran", but here's the thing: Shallan's a smart girl. She heard Kaladin's story, and will eventually make the connection to Kaladin killing Heleran. That will come out. But for Kaladin, killing Heleran wasn't an act of hatred or rage, or even greed--it was an act of protection. He was trying to protect his liege lord and his men. Heleran was slaughtering his people on the field, and Kaladin did what he had to do to save them. When things finally come down, I think all of that will make a difference to Shallan. Adolin, on the otherhand and as I've already said, murdered Sadeas in a fit of rage. He wasn't protecting Dalinar, he wasn't stopping conflict--he killed Sadeas out of hatred. And I really think that will scare Shallan.

Shallan understood that Amaram was likely defending himself when he "killed" Heleran and she still thought of him as a bastard even before Kaladin told her his story. Shallan might understand Kaladin's need to kill her brother, but it does not change the fact that the blood of the brother everyone in her family admired, including Shallan, is on Kaladin's hands. Could she over come that? Maybe, if Kaladin had admitted it to her as soon as he realized the truth. Brandon left a bomb in Kaladin and Shallan's relationship by having Kaladin keep his mouth shut. It's not just that Kaladin killed her brother. It is also that he didn't admit to it. When she finds out from anyone other than Kaladin that is going to put a huge wedge between them and kill any flirting with a relationship.

As for how Adolin killed Sadeas, Shallan would be a hypocrite if she turned on Adolin for that act. He was defending Dalinar, the Knight's Radiant, and Urithru in that moment of rage. Was it a good idea? No, but it is understandable. Sadeas promised to bring Dalinar down and take everything he had from him. Had Sadeas succeeded you think the KR and Urithru would have survived? Adolin knew he would do it so he removed the problem. Shallan did the same when she killed her father. He father had killed her stepmom and would kill her brothers in time. They both murdered to defend others. It's not like Jasnah's situation. Jasnah searched for criminals to kill. Adolin was minding his own business and Sadeas pushed him over the edge with a legitimate threat. No, Shallan won't be mad at Adolin for killing Sadeas. The only thing that will upset her about that event is how it will lead to the end of their engagement.

But after some time and some blade revival (it could happen. I believe.) Adolin will return to Urithru as a KR and resume the relationship.

40 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I personally never understood the Shallan/Adolin betrothal too much personally. 

Jasnah: "You tried to steal my soulcaster (even though it was fake) while lying being my back, and you got yourself poisoned by an ardent that you fell too hard for while showing poor judgment. I think you'd be a great match for my cousin." 

Shallan was the only other proto-radiant Jasnah knew. She knew they needed numbers, so after Shallan begged for forgiveness and proved she would follow Jasnah, helping the girl made sense. Did she really think the causal would end in a marriage? I don't know. However, she had allowed her own brother to marry someone she considered assassinating, so marrying her cousin to someone with a questionable moral fiber is nothing new. Jasnah is a pragmatist. She needed the girl and so tied her to her family in the easiest way.  

[Andy92]

You've all made some valid points, but it's also some evidence as to why the betrothal was more of a power move on Jasnah's part and didn't really have much to do with romance. Although the two do seem to be genuinely falling for each other. I just don't think Shallan's split personalities/surpressed truths from her past are going to bode too well in a relationship. That goes for both Adolin and any potential thing with Kaladin imo. I personally have a hard time trusting Shallan 100%. 

[Jace21]

I agree at this point in time I don't think Shallan is ready for a serious relationship, at the very least she and Adolin will eventually have to come clean about their various murders before they live happily ever after, much as she and Kal would have to resolve the "I killed your favorite brother" thing.

But based on what I've seen in the text a Shadolin just seems to make more sense to me with the information available. I wouldnt Kaladin being wittier is a particular problem, Adolin is plenty witty and has shown it multiple times. As witty as Shallan? No but very few characters are. From an academia point of view, he hasnt studied as a surgeon, but he is well read enough and secure enough in his knowledge that he feels comfortable recommending books to his scholarly betrothed.

Having said all that, stressful situations can push people together, even when it wouldnt normally happen. We've seen this with the chasm scene, the focal point of Shalladin. As they are both radiants and Adolin is not (at this point), any solo Shalladin missions could change the dynamic.

If Brandon does change the focus from Shadolin to Shalladin, I am sure the story will have reached the point where it makes sense. But at the moment, it doesnt, at least in my opinion.

[Starla]

I usually don't comment on this debate because I’m not much of a “shipper.” I like reading romantic sub-plots in fantasy, but I usually go along with whatever the author chooses to write. The same goes with this case, I have confidence that BS will write something interesting with good conflicts and character building. I like all three characters involved, and am excited to watch it develop.

However, one thing that makes me a little sad to read in the endless shipping debate is that somehow Kaladin’s thoughts and feeling usually get pushed to the side. Much of the debate is what is best for Shallan and/or Adolin, and Kaladin is something of an afterthought at best, or at worst it is seen as gross or horrific for Shallan to end up with him. Perhaps this is because, as @Dreamstorm points out, people seem to like Adolin better, and want to look out for his best interest. They want him to be happy. I totally get that, because as a Kaladin fan-girl myself (there I admit it), my hope is that he gets what he wants and needs. He's had a rough life and he needs a little love and support too. It could be close friendships, romantic relationships, or bromances, but whatever it is, I’d like to see him get some happiness thrown his way.

To point out one example of Kaladin as an afterthought, note this from @eveorjoy post (which I enjoyed, by the way!):

Quote

I'd much rather have her self-discovery ruin Shalladin than Shaodin. Let her go through this learning period with Kaladin, have them both part as better people, and hopefully still friends even after she learns the truth.

This looks like Kaladin is being used to resolve Shallan’s mental issues, only to be pushed aside when she’s healed and can go back to Adolin. If Kaladin truly likes Shallan, this could really hurt him. It would also serve to increase his distrust of lighteyes. I’d rather skip the whole Shalladin thing if it is only going to end with him hurt and sinking into another bout of dark despair. 

Several times I have seen people mention “Kaladin just needs to find a nice dark-eyed girl.” This sounds very racist/classist to me. This is saying Kaladin has dark eyes, and therefore he should try to stay in his own class and date girls with dark eyes. Personally, I think it would be very interesting for Kaladin to have a loving and trusting relationship with a light-eyed woman. It would go a long way to help diffuse his distrust of lighteyes, and it would serve as an example to others that the classism of separating people people by eye color is kind of random and ridiculous. 

This being said, I’m not fully convinced that Shallan is the light-eyed woman for this role. I love Shallan, but she has her own deep-seated issues with darkeyes passed down from her father, who wouldn't let her draw them. She automatically thinks of them as peasants, as noted in the recent chapter, and Kaladin would work best with a woman who is more open minded about these things and isn't put off by his eye color. I’m not sure we’ve met a woman like that in the story yet, so I’m not holding my breath on this to happen any time soon. 

To sum up, I don’t quite understand why the idea of Kaladin and Shallan is so offensive to people. Perhaps it’s just because he’s not Adolin, and that makes him the wrong choice for her. But it hurts to see so much negativity towards him when he’s really a decent guy who deserves to be happy too. 

[Jace21]

I absolutley agree with the idea that Kal should find someone to who loves and supports him and makes him happy. I also think him with a light eyed woman would make for a more engaging storyline than a darkeyed woman.

I also want Shallan to find someone who can help her with her issues and make her happy.

Sadly at this point I dont think either is that person for the other. Whereas Adolin could be for Shallan.

Shalladin is totally possible and wont bother me if it happens but they would both need to change before a relationship can work.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

1. People on this forum generally like Adolin better than Kaladin (my guess is if there was a poll about who posters would rather have killed off, Kaladin would win easily), so as a love triangle is often posed as some sort of "competition", the general sentiment is that posters (or maybe the most vocal posters) would like to see Adolin "win".  Oddly, I don't get the sense people generally like Shallan much, but winning an undesirable prize is better than losing I guess 

The answer to this question is both simple and complicated... The forum does not like Adolin more than it likes Kaladin: Kaladin remains the most popular character within SA. A fact it remains the case: the number of readers who were sadden Kaladin's chapters have been so short, readers currently being disappointed in Kaladin being within the "side arc". Every single poll we ever had clearly had Kaladin as a favorite (or as one of the top favorites, Adolin being a very distant close to last character). Thus, there is no denying Kaladin remains the most popular character. Adolin is popular, more popular than many characters, but he isn't one of the top dogs.

So why do you get the impressions it isn't the case?

Because ever since the publishing of WoR, those readers who really enjoyed Adolin's character have never had reasons to believe their favorite character would get a decent story arc. For four years, we have been told how "unimportant" Adolin was to the main narrative, how he was not "one of the major protagonists", how he was not supposed to be there, how he initially "died" (turn out this was in WoK Prime, but we didn't know this until recently). We have read endless discussions where readers argued how Adolin would turn evil or needed to die just so Kaladin, the most popular character, would have a chance with Shallan. We have seen so many readers argued Kaladin needed happiness, but not Adolin. The theories wanting Adolin to become Odium's champion have always been prevalent.

The result of Adolin never being within the spotlight combined with the fact the author more or less confirmed he would never get this spotlight has caused what you could call the "backlash". To cut it short, for many readers, being with Shallan ended up being one of the only chances we would get to read Adolin. On the reverse, Kaladin has had a lot of viewpoints. The story has focused a lot on him: many considers him to be THE main protagonist of the story. It thus seems, to some, giving him the main love story arc would be... a bit too much.

I mean, Kaladin has the largest most detailed story arc, he has the best viewpoints, he has the most climaxes, he has the best fighting scenes, he has the most dramatic arcs... It has caused some to think perhaps it'd be best if Adolin, who's place within the story is never guaranteed, could get at the very least that.

This hardly resumes all the discussions which has had, but I think it helps put things in perspective for the newcomers who didn't get the history behind what they are currently reading on the 17th Shard. Now, this was before we read OB and I can't say I have reasons to complain over "Adolin's presence" within the story: I am pleasantly surprised, this goes against what Brandon told us to expect.

4 hours ago, Alderant said:

First, mentally, Adolin is going to fall apart. He's showing signs of this already. He murdered a high prince in a fit of rage and hatred, then hid the fact. Adolin has previously demonstrated that when things get tough and stressful, he pulls away from those around him--he remains amicable, but his numerous courtships, his despair over Dalinar when he thought Dalinar was going mad, his hurting over Sureblood, he simply doesn't talk to others about what is inside. He hides, he withdraws, and ultimately pushes people away rather than letting them see him for who he is, and as much as I love Dalinar, Adolin's father is a huge cause of that. He's grown up as the prized son, and now he's not only done something bad, but he's snapped and done something terrible. If Adolin had previously demonstrated an ability to confide up until now, he might be able to take what is coming, but unless he majorly changes and starts confiding in Shallan, the stress of everything is going to cause him to break down.

While I do not agree with your later conclusions, I agree with most of this paragraph. I thought it summarizes Adolin's character quite neatly, except for the "fit of rage and hatred" part. I do agree Adolin doesn't talk to others about his pains and his worries. I agree his reactions to hurting is to withdraw, to isolate himself, to smile broadly and pretend nothing is bothering him. I agree Dalinar is largely responsible for this as Adolin is his prized son, his redemption, his perfectly good boy he gave the world to compensate for the wrong he did. It put a lot of stress onto Adolin and made him grow up thinking he needed to be perfection, to be strong, to be steady no matter what.

So yeah, I agree with this part. I agree he is unlikely to confide and he is more likely to burst out, to explode when he can't keep it in anymore. When he does, I expect everything to just pour out and I expect it to come as a complete surprise to his family. They never expected Adolin to crack, to break, to ever be anything but perfectly strong. Finding out they have ignored all the signs, well, let's say I've been wanting to read this story for a very long time.

The part I disagree is the depiction of Adolin as an enraged mad man, as if it were a bad thing, when he was provoked far beyond what most individuals would be able to endure. I disagree he wasn't protecting anyone: he was protecting everyone and I do think Shallan, of all people, will understand. She understands what it is to see her family being destroyed, threatened by a man nobody can deal with. She knows how it feels to be left with little other option then killing.

@Starla: I do think Kaladin needs to find someone who makes him happy and he deserves resolution within relationships too. There were hints his internal story arc will deal with this aspect, so I am keen to find out what Brandon has in store. I however do not enjoy his pairing with Shallan because I dislike how their personality mingles and how it would center the narrative too strongly onto those two characters. This being said, we are only two books into the series: there is plenty of opportunities for new girls to be introduced. I mean, I am sure if Brandon goes for Adolin/Shallan, he will find a satisfying ending for Kaladin. I however deeply fear if he goes for Kaladin/Shallan, he'll give the bad, sad and bittersweet ending to Adolin.

[+eveorjoy]

@Starla I am with you. Kaladin is not only my favorite SA character, he is my favorite fictional character not written in one of my stories. I am a big Kaladin fan girl. It surprises me how, even though this is Dalinar's book, Kaladin's parts are still my favorites. This was true of WoR as well. It was Shallan's book and I love the girl, but Kaladin is the one I enjoyed reading about the most. 

So my preference for Adolin and Shallan over Kaladin and Shallan is not because I don't care about his feelings. I do. I want him to be happy. And I would not mind if he found happiness with Shallan. It's not my preference, but I wouldn't mind it. It is one of the reasons I started this thread. I don't care for the horror at their pairing. 

I said I didn't mind Shallan's problems ruining a romantic relationship with Kaladin because I know their relationship is doomed and it is our dear brightlord brooding eyes who doomed it when he didn't tell Shallan he killed her brother. 

Now I not saying he should have told her before this. The chasms were not the right time and too much has happened since the end of the world for Kaladin to sit down with Shallan and confess. But if he does consider pursuing her, once Adolin is exiled, then he is going to need to tell her right away. If he tells her, they might make it. I think Kaladin could handle her problems. Ironically, Kaladin might be the most stable radiant by the end of OB. Though I think Kaladin could do better than Shallan for all the reasons you said. 

I kind of like the idea of Jasnah with Kaladin. Yes, she is ten to fifteen years older than him, but Kal is very mature for his age. 

My guess is Adolin will be off reviving his shardblade and dealing with his issues. Kaladin and Shallan will be drawn together and almost start a relationship. Then someone will tell Shallan it was Kaladin who killed Heleran. She will confront Kaladin and he will admit what he did. Shallan will feel betrayed that he didn't tell her  sooner and that will be the end of their relationship. 

Kal will be sad, but he will endure it, because he is awesome. And then he will start dating Jasnah and all will be better. Okay maybe not Jasnah. He will end up with May Aladar. 

Regardless, I will be quite depressed if Kaladin dies at the end of book five and never finds love. I'd accept it, but I would still be sad. Kal deserves some happiness. 

I also think Adolin deserves happiness with Shallan and in general. Even if he doesn't revive his shardblade, I hope he stays relevant in the story. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by eveorjoy

[OathKeeper]

My problem is I like Kaladin and I think Shallan is only annoying and not cool at all. I rarely like BS romances because the awkward preteen bicker-flirting is so cheesy it makes me physically grimace reading it. 

Shallan's story is interesting but her POV and dialogue is the most annoying I've ever read. I want to scream at her "It ceases to be clever the second you address the cleverness! Stop dissecting your own mediocre quips!" Kaladin deserves a cooler girl. Age gap be rusted, I want Jasnadin to happen but I doubt Brandon will veer from his Shalladin warpath.

[Steeldancer]

I swear I am so done with the shipping wars. JUST LET THE BOOK HAPPEN FOR STORMS SAKE

[kari-no-sugata]

Just on the topic of character popularity and so on, here's some old polls (mostly from 2014 and all after WoR came out)

Who is your favourite character: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/18912-who-is-your-favourite-character-in-sa/

Kaladin wins this one easily. Shallan 5th most popular, Adolin 7th.

 

Who will Shallan end up with: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6519-shallans-relationship/

 

Very close between Adolin and Kaladin.

 

Who will Kaladin end up with: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7693-kaladins-relationship/

Shallan is the most popular option, though only with 33%.

 

I dunno if there has been significant changes since then. The demographics of the readership can change as well.

[Hischier]

14 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I think this is a very good point and summarizes my feelings exactly. When it comes to the shipping wars, I am under the impression people are fighting for who they like better, Shallan becomes a bit optional. Personally I liked both Kaladin and Adolin when I first read the books and I found both relationships intriguing and I wanted to see more. I still want and try to be as unbiased as I can, but one downside for me is that I get put off by the constant arguing and debating. I will either start avoiding these endless debates or switch to option c) none of the above. There is a saying in my language, that may sound stupid in english, that when two fight, the third will win. 

This is an interesting topic in itself. Kaladin is my favorite character by far in the series. Kaladin has a lot of admirable traits that I respect, but I think his character growth and his flaws are what make him a very interesting character.  Adolin, on the other hand, is a more likable person and also a good character, but my interest in his arc is mostly plot driven. Basically I like Kaladin better as a character but I'd rather be friends with Adolin. 

That's probably part of why I like Shaladin but it also has to do with how Shallan and Kaladin interact. Their interaction brought out parts of each other that I think made each of them more likable characters (as an aside, the scene with them throwing insults at each other in a crowded hallway like 12 year-olds was my favorite comedy scene in the series so far). In Kaladin's case it was pretty obvious: beginning to get over his prejudice against lighteyes (although I think he still has a ways to go there). In Shallan's case, it was one of the few interactions with another character where it didn't feel like she was playing a role. Partly because Kaladin saw through that and called her out on it. I can understand why she does what she does and I actually empathize with it, but it still bugs me when she deals with someone like Dalinar, for example who's exactly the opposite in terms of being completely genuine and honest.  In her more recent interactions with Adolin, it's less that she's playing a role, but she's still hiding herself. I'd rather see Adolin with someone more genuine.  

[Hischier]

50 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I swear I am so done with the shipping wars. JUST LET THE BOOK HAPPEN FOR STORMS SAKE

Then isn't it better to confine it to it's own section instead of having it clutter the main chapter thread? That way people who do want to discuss it can and those who don't don't have to read 200 posts about it. 

[Alderant]

12 hours ago, maxal said:

The part I disagree is the depiction of Adolin as an enraged mad man, as if it were a bad thing, when he was provoked far beyond what most individuals would be able to endure. I disagree he wasn't protecting anyone: he was protecting everyone and I do think Shallan, of all people, will understand. She understands what it is to see her family being destroyed, threatened by a man nobody can deal with. She knows how it feels to be left with little other option then killing.

Hehe I got quoted by Maxal! To go along with your point, I don't mean that Adolin is an enraged madman. Far from it, and don't get me wrong, I love Adolin as a character, and especially your analysis(es) of him. He's hotheaded, yes, but he's kind and has a good head on his shoulders. But it doesn't change the fact that, regardless of how far he was provoked, in a fit of rage he snapped and murdered someone. It even says in WoR that he snapped, and he told Sadeas right before plunging the dagger into his eye that he (Adolin) was not a good man. Not only that, but after stabbing Sadeas he proceeded to scrape the blade around Sadeas's skull. Shallan has already drawn a parallel between Adolin and her father subconsciously once--when Adolin told her following the battle that he would protect her and never let any harm come to her. It was that overprotective behavior of her father that ultimately drove the events of her childhood leading to his death, and when Shallan learns that Adolin has murdered someone in anger, she will inevitably draw the parallel to her father as well and I truly believe that will drive them apart. Perhaps, eventually they'll come back together, eventually she might grow to peace with it, but we'll have to wait and see.

I agree that I think Shallan will understand the necessity, but the idea that she will just be there for him and understand just doesn't sit well with me. I feel the same way about Shallan that you do about Adolin, and out of all the SA characters, she's the one I most identify with. She is hurting, she is scarred, and Adolin's actions are way too similar to her father's for her to just be okay with it. She saw her father turn from a kind, loving man who would sing her to sleep and protect her to a monster, and it was her fault, and seeing Adolin go down the same path is going to terrify her. As I stated earlier, I think one of the reasons she holds so tightly to Adolin is because her relationship is a piece of normalcy in a world that is rapidly collapsing around her, it's a little glimmer of happiness and what her life could have been, and she desperately doesn't want to lose that. It also doesn't help that he's super attractive to her, but where will their relationship be in ten years? Five? If Adolin is capable of killing someone in anger, will he eventually turn his anger on her, as her father did with her stepmother? Will Adolin beat their children when he gets angry? These are serious questions that will be raised when she finds out.

14 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

As for how Adolin killed Sadeas, Shallan would be a hypocrite if she turned on Adolin for that act. He was defending Dalinar, the Knight's Radiant, and Urithru in that moment of rage. Was it a good idea? No, but it is understandable. Sadeas promised to bring Dalinar down and take everything he had from him. Had Sadeas succeeded you think the KR and Urithru would have survived? Adolin knew he would do it so he removed the problem. Shallan did the same when she killed her father. He father had killed her stepmom and would kill her brothers in time. They both murdered to defend others. It's not like Jasnah's situation. Jasnah searched for criminals to kill. Adolin was minding his own business and Sadeas pushed him over the edge with a legitimate threat. No, Shallan won't be mad at Adolin for killing Sadeas. The only thing that will upset her about that event is how it will lead to the end of their engagement.

The big difference here is you are attaching the cold logic of Shallan's situation to Adolin's situation. Shallan killed her father yes. She did it because there was no other option. She tried to kill him with poison, to send him off semi-peacefully, but knew when he started waking that he would likely kill everyone there, and there was no possible way they could have escaped, so she killed him--strangled him--to protect everyone else that she loved. Adolin's situation was not this way. It was not meditated, it was not thought out. Sadeas taunted him and told him of his plans. Adolin could have left, he could have stormed off and told his father. Unlike Shallan's situation, Adolin had a way to retreat without killing. That's not what happened. He got angry, he got emotional and he snapped, and he murdered Sadeas. I'm not saying that he wasn't pushed to a breaking point--he most definitely was, but Adolin did not analyze the situation and decide that killing Sadeas would solve the problems, he killed Sadeas because he was angry, and because he hated Sadeas.

And no, I don't think Shallan will be mad. I think she'll be terrified.

14 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

I think Shallan could fit with Kaladin, but I think she fits better with Adolin. I agree Shallan and Adolin will likely break up, but after both characters grow a bit I think they will come back together; as long as Shallan is not with Kaladin.

I think Kaladin killing Heleran made it impossible for them to be together. I will explain after your next quote.

Quote

Also, with regards to Heleran, I'm really not sure how Shallan will take that. It seems to me almost that it will be one of her truths, something like "Kaladin killed Heleran", but here's the thing: Shallan's a smart girl. She heard Kaladin's story, and will eventually make the connection to Kaladin killing Heleran. That will come out. But for Kaladin, killing Heleran wasn't an act of hatred or rage, or even greed--it was an act of protection. He was trying to protect his liege lord and his men. Heleran was slaughtering his people on the field, and Kaladin did what he had to do to save them. When things finally come down, I think all of that will make a difference to Shallan. Adolin, on the otherhand and as I've already said, murdered Sadeas in a fit of rage. He wasn't protecting Dalinar, he wasn't stopping conflict--he killed Sadeas out of hatred. And I really think that will scare Shallan.

Shallan understood that Amaram was likely defending himself when he "killed" Heleran and she still thought of him as a bastard even before Kaladin told her his story. Shallan might understand Kaladin's need to kill her brother, but it does not change the fact that the blood of the brother everyone in her family admired, including Shallan, is on Kaladin's hands. Could she over come that? Maybe, if Kaladin had admitted it to her as soon as he realized the truth. Brandon left a bomb in Kaladin and Shallan's relationship by having Kaladin keep his mouth shut. It's not just that Kaladin killed her brother. It is also that he didn't admit to it. When she finds out from anyone other than Kaladin that is going to put a huge wedge between them and kill any flirting with a relationship.

Oookay. Let me explain myself here. I ship Shalladin not because I'm a Kaladin fan, or because I'm anti-Adolin or anything of the sort. I'm actually a huge Shallan fanboy, so I ship Shalladin because in their relationship I see Shallan at her most genuine. Not once when she is interacting with Kaladin does she put on an act or a persona (excepting that very first, hilarious horn-eater princess). She is her true self around him, which she is not around Adolin. To quote the CW's show "Arrow", around Adolin she must become someone else, she must become something else. Adolin is endearing, he is charming, he is very handsome, but she can't let him see the true Shallan, the broken, hurting, frightened girl that doesn't understand why her mother tried to kill her, and why her father turned into a monster. Around Adolin she is "Shallan, the scholar" or "Shallan, the light-eyed girl" or "Brightness Radiant" even, but she keeps part of herself closed off because she is afraid. Around Kaladin she is genuine.

Regarding Heleran, I agree completely that the truth of that needs to come from Kaladin. I think if it doesn't it will really hurt her. But in the same way she opened herself up to him, he has opened himself to her. There is a bond there that is lacking with Adolin.

12 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

I kind of like the idea of Jasnah with Kaladin. Yes, she is ten to fifteen years older than him, but Kal is very mature for his age. 

I could see that. Jasnah might actually be better tempered to suit Kaladin, but I honestly have a hard time seeing Jasnah with anyone. It's kind of implied in WoK that she already had a romance that fell apart when she tells Shallan about the Book of Endless Pages (not sure if that's the right title).

Just now, Hischier said:

Then isn't it better to confine it to it's own section instead of having it clutter the main chapter thread? That way people who do want to discuss it can and those who don't don't have to read 200 posts about it. 

Agreed. People have strong feelings about their SA OTP.

[OathKeeper]

55 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I swear I am so done with the shipping wars. JUST LET THE BOOK HAPPEN FOR STORMS SAKE

Guys, Steeldancer's done with the shipping wars. Somebody close this thread down immediately.

Sorry, @Steeldancer, didn't realize you were done. Our bad. 

[Steeldancer]

1 minute ago, OathKeeper said:

Guys, Steeldancer's done with the shipping wars. Somebody close this thread down immediately.

Sorry, @Steeldancer, didn't realize you were done. Our bad. 

I'm saying this argument has been hashed out a thousand times. In a thousand threads. Like stick, it comes to a point where enough is enough. 

Brandon Sanderson will do the characters justice. Isn't that enough? Has he ever failed us? Has he ever been defined by the normal expectations? No. No he hasn't. If shalladin happens, it happens. If Shadolin continues, it continues. Brandon probably has something absolutely amazing in store for us in the next 8 books. I say, let it happen. Kolo?