[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, maxal said:

Devastating? Aren't you extrapolating a bit much with this ? Kaladin doesn't have a relationship with Shallan neither is he in love with her. He merely thinks of her and has a mild curiosity towards her. That's it. Shall she not return his affection, he will not be devastated. Devastated is what Adolin will be if Shallan dumps him for Kaladin. 

Therefore, as long as Shallan and Kaladin do not have a working relationship based on romance, something at least equivalent to what Adolin and Shallan currently have, I will not consider it devastating nor traumatizing to either of them shall it not work. At this point in time within the story, the only individual in danger of getting hurt, like really hurt, by the "love triangle" is Adolin, not Kaladin. 

To Kaladin, Shallan is A girl. To Adolin, Shallan is THE girl. Big difference.

Did you even read what I said?

I specifically said, that I could accept it, if Shallan tells Kaladin, that she's not interested and loves Adolin. It would be okay. And yes, Kaladin would be devastated, if Shallan and him get closer and she suddenly decides Adolin is better for her. It has nothing to do with extrapolation.

[Dreamstorm]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Thank you for saying. How did we progress to have readers think there are readers who are arguing Kaladin ought to die to make room for Adolin?  For YEARS, I had to read posts over posts on how ADOLIN had to die or either turn evil just so Shallan could realize how much of a despicable individual he is (you know he murdered Sadeas) and turn to fall right into Kaladin's arms?

For clarification, I'm not saying posters seem to be advocating killing off Kaladin!  I'm saying the sense I personally get in reading this forum is that if there was a poll which was based on the assumption that either Kaladin or Adolin HAD to die, Kaladin would be the one chosen to be offed.  But this is just my perception!  I see those polls linked a few pages back tell a different story.  I don't keep track of who posts what (though I do know you are one of the most vocal Adolin-ites), so it's possible it is the same people disliking the idea of Kaladin being with Shallan repeatedly that led to my impression.

I didn't quote it, but I found your historical summary of Adolin among the fan base to be really interesting.  I very recently read WoK and WoR (finishing the latter in late July), and first came upon this forum trying to see if anyone else sensed the Kaladin-Adolin romantic connection   (Now after knowing more of Sanderson's background and having read some of his other books, I realize Kadolin is highly, highly unlikely to become reality )  As I stated in my first post on this thread, I didn't expect to find such antagonism towards the Kaladin-Shallan match, but given the history noted, I can understand why the pro-Adolin posters became so entrenched in their position. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Did you even read what I said?

I specifically said, that I could accept it, if Shallan tells Kaladin, that she's not interested and loves Adolin. It would be okay. And yes, Kaladin would be devastated, if Shallan and him get closer and she suddenly decides Adolin is better for her. It has nothing to do with extrapolation.

Fair enough my bad. I still think the word is strong. I see no reason why Kaladin would want a relationship with Shallan so bad he'd be devastated if it fails. Relationships fail all the time, people aren't always devastated by it. I guess I just don't see neither Kaladin nor Shallan every loving each other strong enough for this to happen, for real heart-break to manifest, but I could be wrong.

[Guest]

Just now, Dreamstorm said:

For clarification, I'm not saying posters seem to be advocating killing off Kaladin!  I'm saying the sense I personally get in reading this forum is that if there was a poll which was based on the assumption that either Kaladin or Adolin HAD to die, Kaladin would be the one chosen to be offed.  But this is just my perception!  I see those polls linked a few pages back tell a different story.  I don't keep track of who posts what (though I do know you are one of the most vocal Adolin-ites), so it's possible it is the same people disliking the idea of Kaladin being with Shallan repeatedly that led to my impression.

I didn't quote it, but I found your historical summary of Adolin among the fan base to be really interesting.  I very recently read WoK and WoR (finishing the latter in late July), and first came upon this forum trying to see if anyone else sensed the Kaladin-Adolin romantic connection   (Now after knowing more of Sanderson's background and having read some of his other books, I realize Kadolin is highly, highly unlikely to become reality )  As I stated in my first post on this thread, I didn't expect to find such antagonism towards the Kaladin-Shallan match, but given the history noted, I can understand why the pro-Adolin posters became so entrenched in their position. 

The problem was you perception defied all discussion which ever happened. Nobody ever argued Kaladin ought to die to make room for Adolin, but people have constantly argued with the opposite to happen. This is why it baffled me so much, it never was a theory, not that I am aware of and I'd think if it were one, I'd be one of those who'd actually know.

I like the poll was posted, it gives a better idea of how the forum grew. And yeah, I am quite vocal, but I am one person. I'd be best not to think my personal opinion, no matter how forcefully or often if can be encountered, is the most prevalent opinion. A LOT of people disagrees with me. Some hate my posts, stating they make them dislike Adolin when in truth a lot of them are reaction towards awful things I have read everywhere.

[Dreamstorm]

10 minutes ago, maxal said:

The problem was you perception defied all discussion which ever happened. Nobody ever argued Kaladin ought to die to make room for Adolin, but people have constantly argued with the opposite to happen. This is why it baffled me so much, it never was a theory, not that I am aware of and I'd think if it were one, I'd be one of those who'd actually know.

I like the poll was posted, it gives a better idea of how the forum grew. And yeah, I am quite vocal, but I am one person. I'd be best not to think my personal opinion, no matter how forcefully or often if can be encountered, is the most prevalent opinion. A LOT of people disagrees with me. Some hate my posts, stating they make them dislike Adolin when in truth a lot of them are reaction towards awful things I have read everywhere.

I think we're talking past each other...  I certainly don't think I know (even a fraction) of all discussion which had ever happened on SA.  I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.  And as far as I know, there is no theory that Kaladin should die to make way for Adolin.  That wasn't what I was saying.  I was saying I got the impression (my impression!, based on my admittedly imperfect knowledge!) from reading this forum that Adolin is better liked than Kaladin.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

Fair enough my bad. I still think the word is strong. I see no reason why Kaladin would want a relationship with Shallan so bad he'd be devastated if it fails. Relationships fail all the time, people aren't always devastated by it. I guess I just don't see neither Kaladin nor Shallan every loving each other strong enough for this to happen, for real heart-break to manifest, but I could be wrong.

And now we're arguing over semantics.

My point is, that Kaladin, as Shallan already observed, is emotion-driven and passionate. If he should develop feelings, which are being reciprocated to a point, and get them suddenly ripped away from him, he would be devastated. Passionate people are this way. And Kaladin is passionate.

I'm really trying to keep an open mind about all this. I'm conceding points. I am not perfect and I'll admit my mistakes.

I'm sorry, but this is getting too frustrating and is no ground on which fruitful discussion can occur.

I sometimes feel like I'm talking against a brick wall.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, maxal said:

And come on, nobody is victimizing Adolin. What you are seeing is people being tired of other people endlessly arguing Adolin is rotten because he killed Sadeas and everyone else will see him as rotten because of it. Like, no one within the entire series will ever understand, not even the one girl who actually killed her parents. 

No. You are victimizing yourself.

And stop being so condescending. I'm talking to you like an adult, so I can expect the same from you.

Edited September 30, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

20 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think we're talking past each other...  I certainly don't think I know (even a fraction) of all discussion which had ever happened on SA.  I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.  And as far as I know, there is no theory that Kaladin should die to make way for Adolin.  That wasn't what I was saying.  I was saying I got the impression (my impression!, based on my admittedly imperfect knowledge!) from reading this forum that Adolin is better liked than Kaladin.

That's interesting, I'll keep an eye for posts that suggest it, because I haven't noticed it. My impression is people like Kaladin best, he's an awesome character, and Adolin tends to be dismissed as unimportant side character that no longer has a purpose since he was written to challenge and doubt Dalinar on his visions. I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong; may be posts that go against our views stick with us more than those we agree with, so we are left with somewhat distorted impressions.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think we're talking past each other...  I certainly don't think I know (even a fraction) of all discussion which had ever happened on SA.  I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.  And as far as I know, there is no theory that Kaladin should die to make way for Adolin.  That wasn't what I was saying.  I was saying I got the impression (my impression!, based on my admittedly imperfect knowledge!) from reading this forum that Adolin is better liked than Kaladin.

It's alright. You got up the wrong foot by suggesting people would be happy to see Kaladin dying.

36 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And now we're arguing over semantics.

My point is, that Kaladin, as Shallan already observed, is emotion-driven and passionate. If he should develop feelings, which are being reciprocated to a point, and get them suddenly ripped away from him, he would be devastated. Passionate people are this way. And Kaladin is passionate.

I'm really trying to keep an open mind about all this. I'm conceding points. I am not perfect and I'll admit my mistakes.

I'm sorry, but this is getting too frustrating and is no ground on which fruitful discussion can occur.

I sometimes feel like I'm talking against a brick wall.

And I disagree. I do no read Kaladin as passionate, no matter what Shallan may have said. I just do not get how Kaladin is more passionate than Adolin. Adolin is the one having passion: he is described in such terms by many people. He is the one having strong emotions he hardly controls. Now this isn't to say Kaladin doesn't have them too, but they are more guarded, more introspective and I really do not get Kaladin is the kind of guy to go heartbroken over a girl.

For the rest, leave it be. I am not a brick wall, disagreeing does not make me a brick wall, but I disagree with the depiction of Kaladin as a passionate love stricken guy who would be devastated over Shallan not wanting to pursue things with him. I just do not see it within the existing narrative. I absolutely do not read Kaladin as a this individual. As I said the only, only person I see getting hurt here is Adolin. My perspective is the story has highlighted well enough Adolin crushes, loves Shallan, probably more than she loves him and shall she prefer Kaladin, this would break his every thought of ever succeeding in a functional relationship. Kaladin, he may be sad, he may be angry, but he will move on. Things not working with Shallan is NOT a show stopped for Kaladin, but it is for Adolin. I do not see Adolin moving one from losing Shallan, just like Dalinar never moved on from losing Navani.

Sorry if I you think I am a brick wall, but any argument saying losing Shallan wouldn't have worst consequences on Adolin than on Kaladin, I disagree with. Shall the story ever make it clear I was wrong, then so be it, but so far, it isn't going down this road so far and it's got a great lot of writing to do to convince me Adolin wouldn't be the most severely impacted shall he lose Shallan.

39 minutes ago, SLNC said:

No. You are victimizing yourself.

And stop being so condescending. I'm talking to you like an adult, so I can expect the same from you.

We are back at it? Screaming insults at each other? I thought we made that clear last time. I thought we made peace. Look, I have the right to disagree with you. I have the right to think your statements are wrong just as you have the right to think mine are. Accept we disagree and move on. I am NOT being condescending, not this time around, I won't bite to the insult. And stop insulting me each time you disagree with me. Seriously.

And I am NOT victimizing myself. Gee. I am the farthest away from victimizing person you are about to meet, but I will call a cat a cat if I see one and I will not sugar coat it just because some people may be offended I dare say things as they were. The fandom HAS been harsh on Adolin and it HAS caused those who like his character to become more reactive. This is a FACT, not an attempt to draw sympathy by making me sound like a victim of the evil Kaladin lovers. 

[Guest]

Fine. Let us agree to disagree.

I'm done with this.

Nothing I am going to say is make you see your own faults. I resign.

Edited September 30, 2017 by SLNC

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Fine. Let us agree to disagree.

I'm done with this.

Nothing I am going to say is make you see your own faults. I resign.

Look, you and I, we always get on each other's bad side for "reasons". Last time, I said there was no need to take it personal and I will say it again: this isn't personal. Attacking me isn't going to help you win your argument. Now, I am not saying I am perfect, I did lose it within the other post because I was angry you would get angry at me for disagreeing with you. Stupid huh? Well yes, it is stupid. But you and I do not have to agree about everything: a lot of people do not agree with me, a lot of people agree with you.

How about we both enjoy the story and we both try to calm down? I mean you no harm, I am going to believe the same from you. Bottom line is you and I, we do not agree. This is fine. We don't have to agree. I agree to disagree with you and, as I have said, if the story proves me wrong, I will admit my wrongs. I always did.

Peace.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Look, you and I, we always get on each other's bad side for "reasons". Last time, I said there was no need to take it personal and I will say it again: this isn't personal. Attacking me isn't going to help you win your argument. Now, I am not saying I am perfect, I did lose it within the other post because I was angry you would get angry at me for disagreeing with you. Stupid huh? Well yes, it is stupid. But you and I do not have to agree about everything: a lot of people do not agree with me, a lot of people agree with you.

How about we both enjoy the story and we both try to calm down? I mean you no harm, I am going to believe the same from you. Bottom line is you and I, we do not agree. This is fine. We don't have to agree. I agree to disagree with you and, as I have said, if the story proves me wrong, I will admit my wrongs. I always did.

Peace.

I know that this is not personal and I have never even seen it that way.

I felt wronged. In fact I still feel wronged. When I feel wronged I have to address that, because else it keep nagging me. So I will do that now.

Self-victimization: I believe you. I do, but constantly reminding everyone, that Adolin was once so hated by the community and how hard it has been for you gives the impression of trying to coerce some sympathy. It can be, that you don't mean it that way, but I only have my perspective.

Condescension: "Come on", "Oh come on", "And come on".

All examples about phrases someone uses when berating. I felt condescended upon and I don't like that. We are both adults and, I think, can expect a measure of mutual respect.

Had to get these two points off my chest.

When I said, that you are victimizing yourself, I didn't mean it as an insult. I was trying to show my perspective. Maybe my English skills are not good enough, I don't know. If you felt insulted, I am sorry.

[+Ravioli]

28 minutes ago, maxal said:

Look, you and I, we always get on each other's bad side for "reasons". Last time, I said there was no need to take it personal and I will say it again: this isn't personal. Attacking me isn't going to help you win your argument. Now, I am not saying I am perfect, I did lose it within the other post because I was angry you would get angry at me for disagreeing with you. Stupid huh? Well yes, it is stupid. But you and I do not have to agree about everything: a lot of people do not agree with me, a lot of people agree with you.

How about we both enjoy the story and we both try to calm down? I mean you no harm, I am going to believe the same from you. Bottom line is you and I, we do not agree. This is fine. We don't have to agree. I agree to disagree with you and, as I have said, if the story proves me wrong, I will admit my wrongs. I always did.

Peace.

I think you need to just speak with more people who agree with you to get yourself back on track. Disagreement can disorient you! There's someone on the Tor comment section named Gepeto, who shares your love of Adolin.  

[mariapapadia she/her]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Devastating? Aren't you extrapolating a bit much with this ? Kaladin doesn't have a relationship with Shallan neither is he in love with her. He merely thinks of her and has a mild curiosity towards her. That's it. Shall she not return his affection, he will not be devastated. Devastated is what Adolin will be if Shallan dumps him for Kaladin. 

Therefore, as long as Shallan and Kaladin do not have a working relationship based on romance, something at least equivalent to what Adolin and Shallan currently have, I will not consider it devastating nor traumatizing to either of them shall it not work. At this point in time within the story, the only individual in danger of getting hurt, like really hurt, by the "love triangle" is Adolin, not Kaladin. 

To Kaladin, Shallan is A girl. To Adolin, Shallan is THE girl. Big difference.

Yes, I agree. Kaladin's character doesn't need to have a romantic relationship, at the moment, and shall he get one it doesn't need to be with Shallan, specifically. Adolin is within a completely different mind frame where he not only wants resolution, but he NEEDS to have it. We can guess, with the Desolation looming, Adolin will not be allowed to remain without a wife for much longer. On the reverse, neither Kaladin nor Shallan actually have to marry to fulfill their obligation to their family. Romance is not something their character needs to be successful in.

One of the points I have often made is without Shallan, Adolin has no romance. There is no "other choice". Bringing in "another choice", into the story does not work because his character is unable to have relationship. His issues won't just magically disappear. Shallan is different, the next random girl won't.

I do not see Kaladin's character as absolutely needing a relationship with Shallan to progress nor to move forward. I agree it is a "nice to have", but this "nice to have" does not require Shallan. It could be with any character Brandon wants to introduce as Kaladin doesn't have Adolin's crippling issues when it comes to relationships nor dating. He has problems, but they aren't related to intimacy nor the ability to develop relationships with girls.

(..)

Adolin and Shallan as friends just honestly isn't a possibility I see within the narrative. Shallan might be friend with Adolin, but not the reverse.

You are also ignoring something important, Adolin doesn't need Shallan to be his friend, he needs a romantic relationship to work. Remove this from his character and no, he isn't growing nearly as much. He'll always have this thing which is missing, he'll always have those issues.

As for Adolin loving Shallan just as Kaladin could, another come on. Kaladin would never be half as thoughtful nor dedicated to Shallan as Adolin is. It just isn't how he is. What I meant is a man like Adolin, a man who makes you feel special, who loves you so much he gives you everything doesn't come around every street corner. I was thinking Shallan, given her past history, could grow in appreciating what a man like Adolin does for her.

 

11 hours ago, maxal said:

I think the reason why it was brought up is, for some readers, Kaladin doesn't need to be within a relationship with Shallan. If Kaladin gets a romance story arc: it doesn't need to be with Shallan. She isn't "the special one" for him, she is "a girl" he is thinking a lot about and perhaps is starting to have feelings for, but I do not get she is "the only one" nor "unique". If Shallan doesn't return his affection, Kaladin will just move on, find someone else and by happy with this someone else.

On the reverse, the story makes it obvious Shallan is "special" to Adolin, she is "the one girl" among the many he has "one chance" at making it work. If the relationship fails, then Adolin is unlikely to develop another working relationship with another girl because he just can't have them. Shallan is "different", circumstances around him dating Shallan are "different" and as such, he has the possibility of it working, but remove Shallan and Adolin basically has no romance. At best he'd get married of to tie political alliance to a woman he does not completely hate, but this is the best case scenario.

 

Sorry to jump into such a heated debate, but I wanted some clarifications to understand better how you view things. As you see I've mostly highligthed some sentences where you argue how much Shallan is not the one or important for Kaladin, as it if for Adolin. 

I disagree with this. It's true before the chasm we only got the "hatefull", dissmising view of Kaladin towards Shallan and between the chasm and the present, we didn't have much to nitpick when it comes to these two, but what we have I would argue it makes her special for Kaladin. It's not only because she is a lighteyes and he accepts she's not that bad. It's the strong character that she has, her optimism that shows one can be broken, but still smile, still feel. Lets not forget the famous quote "It was the single most beautiful thing he'd seen in his entire life". That doesn't sound like everyother girl to me, that doesn't sound like she's not special. But maybe it's just my opinion. And in the present day with

Quote

 

“What about that Lightweaver? You seemed to like her.”

The words struck uncomfortably close to the truth.

 

We don't know that much about Kaladin previous relationship with Tarah, to give us a better understanding of how special Shallan is compared to other women in his life, but from what we've seen so far I would argue that she is. I don't think he loves her yet, because I suspect he is fighting his feelings towars her right now, but I though we established Adolin is not in love with her either at the moment. If Kaladin and Shallan explore their relationship we don't know if he'll "just get over it". From my experience people who sufffer from depression are more sensitive when it comes to relationships, because they have a hard time opening up and can get hurt pretty bad. I think we see this especially in Kaladin, when it's so hard for him to belive that not all lighteyes are bad. It's his selfdefense mechanism. So just moving on if he gets rejected in the case Shallan only "explores her feelings", might not be that easy. 

Now I get to the part I am actually curios about? Why do you think Adolin views Shallan in such a unique light ? I am not impling that he doesn't but what makes you think that? We as viewers know how complex and wonderful Shallan is, but until now, the facade she put for Adolin doesn't seem to have anything that special or out of the ordinary (beside the poop question). I don't recall right now any scenes where Adolin thinks of Shallan,  am not saying they don't exist, just that I dont remember them. So if there are any it would be nice if you could direct me to them , I just want to understand better where your idea of "the one" came. I have the feeling the reason why Adolin failed in his relationships up until now is that he didn't try to be friends with the girls he was courting. We didn't see much of Adolin's dates or relationships up until now, we mostly heard of them from a third source. I can recall only one from WoK when he was investigating Elhokar's saddle incident and to be fair it seemed like he was dragging the poor girl in his boring affairs, rather than taking her on a date. I think we even have a moment when Narvani tells him to bring a girl flower, so while I know Adolin can be thoughtful and kind, I would argue that saying Kaladin can't treat a girl right, but Adolin is the only one who can, it's a bit biased. We haven't seen how Kaladin treated his girldfriends/love interests, we haven't seen the Kal that likes a girl. Adolin brings Shallan dinner and he is mostly nice with her, but I wouldn't put my hand in a fire that he was the perfect boyfriend in his ex-relationships or that he tried that hard to get close to someone, so that we can say so firmly that Shallan is the only one. 

My impression is what made Shallan special and important for him, is that they are also developing a friendship, beside the relationship.This is what makes her special for him, unique. But who is to say Adolin tried all the girls in Roshar and he came to the conclusion Shallan is the only one? I feel like that is a bit exagerated. Yes, so far she is special, but I have the feeling he wasn't very mature about his relationships in the past.  And what makes a relationship strong, IMO, is the friendship that the two partners have. So it's not impossible that if two people broke up, they remain friends. Of course, it's not always the case and there are a lot of variables in any situation like that, but it's a posibility.

I also didn't get the feeling Adolin is that desperate to make it work. You paint it a bit like it's his only chance at true happiness. How old is he 23-24? I know it's Roshar and the marriage views are different, but I don't think you are considered a failure if you're not married until 24. IMO he still has a lot to discover about himself, before he could be considered a lost case when it comes to love. 

I hope I expressed my points ok, they seemed more coherent when I started writing the post, but I tend to get lost with words. In conclusion I wanted to argued against "Shallan not being special for Kaladin" and ask you  what do you think Adolin sees so special in Shallan, that can't find in anyone else in this world, that he would consider her his only chance at romance ? 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

@mariapapadia Thank you for pretty much reflecting my own opinion in a better laid out way. I see now that I have plenty to learn regarding argumentative structure , but hey, practice makes perfect.

[mariapapadia she/her]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

@mariapapadia Thank you for pretty much reflecting my own opinion in a better laid out way. I see now that I have plenty to learn regarding argumentative structure , but hey, practice makes perfect.

haha, practice makes it perfect  true. it's easier to express some thoughts when you're not in the heat of the moment 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I know that this is not personal and I have never even seen it that way.

I felt wronged. In fact I still feel wronged. When I feel wronged I have to address that, because else it keep nagging me. So I will do that now.

Self-victimization: I believe you. I do, but constantly reminding everyone, that Adolin was once so hated by the community and how hard it has been for you gives the impression of trying to coerce some sympathy. It can be, that you don't mean it that way, but I only have my perspective.

Condescension: "Come on", "Oh come on", "And come on".

All examples about phrases someone uses when berating. I felt condescended upon and I don't like that. We are both adults and, I think, can expect a measure of mutual respect.

Had to get these two points off my chest.

When I said, that you are victimizing yourself, I didn't mean it as an insult. I was trying to show my perspective. Maybe my English skills are not good enough, I don't know. If you felt insulted, I am sorry.

I used the words "Come on" not because I meant to be condescending, but because I thought, wrongly, I could tease you. You know, as a friend? I thought you and I had progress far enough to tease each other about disagreeing. My mistake. I meant not to be condescending. I will not repeat it again. You can trust I will never repeat the same mistake.

48 minutes ago, Ravi said:

I think you need to just speak with more people who agree with you to get yourself back on track. Disagreement can disorient you! There's someone on the Tor comment section named Gepeto, who shares your love of Adolin.  

Oh I know this, thank you.

12 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

..

Adolin has dated every single eligible girl in Alethkar: Shallan teases him in saying he ought to go as far as Herdazian to find one girl he never pursued. Every single girl. This is the scope of Adolin's falling with respect to girls. He failed with every single girl: whether or not he is to blame for each and every one of those failure is irrelevant. What is relevant is he failed. Each time. If we are to extrapolate a number, we could say... 10 girls per years for 6 years... So 60 relationships attempts and 60 failures? Even if it is just 40, even if it is just 30: the sheer number of it is just astonishing. When I say Adolin tried all the girls in Alethkar, it is because he did. The story told us so. He didn't just date a handful of girls: he dated all of them. Every single one. 

Why Adolin keeps failing is no great mystery either. Brandon actually told us. He fails out of a combination of being young and being afraid of "not being good enough". He does "unconsciously sabotages" his relationships: this comes directly from Brandon. Hence Adolin has massive issues when it comes to relationships: he has dated, let's say more than 30 girls, and he ran away from each and every one of them. Every time.

Do we honestly believe ALL of those girls where unsuitable? Not genuine? Not nice? Not decent? Of course not, it makes no sense Adolin never dated one decent girl until Shallan. It makes no sense he never dated ONE girl who tried to befriend him before, who played hard to get. Mind, maybe it was the case, the the scope of Adolin's failure makes it hard to believe.

As thus, Shallan truly is the first and the only girl he is actually trying to make it work with. The Only. The One. And yes, I do believe he loves her. And yes, I do believe he loves her more than she loves him. Yes, he is befriending her, he is trying to get close to her: he is going farther down the road with her than with ANY other girl. To him, she is special. Therefore shall Shallan prefer him another, then yes it will be devastating because Adolin has dated all available girls, he burned the bridges with all available girls, he can't make relationship works except for this one which is different because "reasons". She is the one girl he wants to make it work with, the only one he is able to foresee not ruining the relationship or the one he is genuinely afraid he would.

As such I strongly disagree Shallan is somehow "not important" for Adolin or "just another girl". 

As for Kaladin, this is true we never saw him within a relationship, but I still do not see why Shallan ought to be more "special" to him than she is to Adolin. Of course, this isn't the only angle to look at the relationship, but it is one angle. My perspective is Kaladin does not need a romantic relationship with her to grow whereas Adolin does. I also do not get how the narrative makes Shallan more special to Kaladin than she is to Adolin. Yes, he finds it beautiful she can smile, but as you say, we have no idea what he thought of the other girls. We however know how Adolin feels about his failed courtships.

Maybe however this isn't a very strong argument, so let's argument differently....

Shall Shallan prefers Kaladin (and she might), what is to become of Adolin? How is he going to succeed with another relationship when we have established the scope of his failures? How is the next "random nameless girl" going to do the same as Shallan did? 

Or let's go into another tangential, shall Shallan end up with Kaladin, what does it bring to Kaladin's character he could not get in a different manner? And how does Adolin manages to grow and get resolution despite it? How do we get both characters satisfying growth if  Shallan goes with Kaladin? This has been the knot of the argument now wasn't it? So what does it mean for Adolin? If someone believes he can honestly just "be friend" with Shallan, bring forth a rational where it works with the character.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

also do not get how the narrative makes Shallan more special to Kaladin than she is to Adolin.

I just wanted to throw in, that he compares Shallan and her effect on him to Tien. And you know how important Tien was to him.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I just wanted to throw in, that he compares Shallan and her effect on him to Tien. And you know how important Tien was to him.

She can be a good friend and help him feel good. Because she can push back the gloom does not mean they would make a good couple. Syl can also push back Kaladin's gloom. I guess they are meant to be.

[Guest]

Just now, eveorjoy said:

She can be a good friend and help him feel good. Because she can push back the gloom does not mean they would make a good couple. Syl can also push back Kaladin's gloom. I guess they are meant to be.

It is an argument for how special Shallan actually is for Kaladin. That is all what was asked for.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Just now, SLNC said:

It is an argument for how special Shallan actually is for Kaladin. That is all what was asked for.

Fair enough, but that makes her no more special than Syl. I think it was seeing someone broken able to still smile that made him happy. I agree he has a crush on her because of this, but he has had other women in his life who could do that, including his spren. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Fair enough, but that makes her no more special than Syl. I think it was seeing someone broken able to still smile that made him happy. I agree he has a crush on her because of this, but he has had other women in his life who could do that, including his spren. 

How does Syl cheer Kaladin up like Tien ever did? They like each other and have an intimate bond, but I haven't seen Kaladin compare Syl to Tien like he did with Shallan.

Though, I'll admit that Tarah might have had a similar effect. She helped him out of a workaholic streak once, but I don't know if she really understood him like Shallan does. Or if there even is someone else who is able to.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC
Further clarification

[+eveorjoy she/her]

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

How does Syl cheer Kaladin up like Tien ever did? They like each other and have an intimate bond, but I haven't seen Kaladin compare Syl to Tien like he did with Shallan.

Though, I'll admit that Tarah might have had a similar effect.

He did not compare Syl cheering him up the way Tien did, but he has compared Syl to Tien before. WoK chapter 46 "Child of Tanavast" pg 593

Quote

"It will be different this time, Kaladin," Syl said. "I can feel it." 

"That sounds like something Tien would have said."

He has also watched Syl many times and felt better afterward. But I may have confused the above statement with him thinking the same thing of Syl that he thought of Shallan. Still, being like is brother is not enough for a good relationship.

However, if Brandon makes it work, I wouldn't mind. That was the point of this thread. But until then I prefer Adolin and Shallan.

[mariapapadia she/her]

@maxal! You actually made me advocate, more than I wanted to. I was honest when I said I wanted to be Sweden when it comes to the shipping wars, but I actually feel like the reason you don't want to accept anything else for Adolin, rather than Shallan is because he is your favourite character and you want him to see beat Kaladin for once. I actually wrote an edit with a point I forgot to add, but I think it's better suited here.

I don't want to contest your understanding of Adolin, because I know and one can see how much thought and love you put into his character, but I don't like how in these arguments you are reducing him to just one guy who's love for Shallan is the most important thing, the thing that will make him succed or not. If I didn't know better I would think the only interesting or important thing about Adolin is Shallan. The only way Adolin can grow is through a relationship with Shallan. It ties him too much to the posibility of succeding, that really puts me off. I hate it when a character becomes so dependent on someone else that they can't be their true self, they can't be strong enough on their own. What Adolin has for Shallan is infatuation at this point, it's not love. IMO one cannot love, truly love someone in such a short time, without having that raw knowledge of the other person. Without seeing who the other person truly is. Right now Adolin has a strong affection how Shallan, he's still falling, but I do not think that is love. Even if Brandon would write black on white tomorrow, that Adolin loves Shallan I wouldn't belive it .I  know it would probably be true because he knows them better, but I won't accept it, not because of spite, but because I don't see it, I don't feel it yet. The kind of love that you describe would be so devastating and crippleling is the kind you love them whole, to know the other person like it would be one of your limbs, to let them become a part of you, as you become a part of them. That is the kind of love Adolin wouldn't be able to get over, because he would not only lose his best friend, but also a part of himseld. And I don't think any of them are there yet. 

To cut the cheesy speach about love, I expect if Adolin gets dumpt by Shallan for Kaladin (which I doubt will happen like that if it's to happen), to just learn from that and realise that he is strong and he won't just be nothing else because someone dumped him. You would say this if because we got used to Adolin being the strong one that can overcome everything. No! I would expect Kaladin as well to get his rust together and move on. I personally expect Kaladin to have a more difficult time, because given his personality he is more sensitive to opening up and forming connections, being them friendships or relationships. For a depressed person everything intensifies and their view of the world is more dramatic and gloomy than it actually is. This is why I belive "he won't just get over it". Adolin's personality is more on the happy side, it's easier for him to see the bright side of things and he wasn't broken until now. He has some daddy issues and a lot of pressure has been put on his shoulders, but he isn't emotionally crippled. Of course he needs love and happiness in his life, who doesn't ? But I don't belive Shallan is the only one that can give him that, nor do I think that about Kaladin/Shallan. If he gets dumped I expect him to cry, be hurt and get up and move on. If the doesn't do that, than he isn't the character I expected him to be. The same goes for Kaladin, Shallan and everyother character in this book. We are reading SA, not Twilight, so that we see characters crippled by love. 

Alethkar is not the whole world. As we've seen so far, there is much more Roshar out there and with the Oathgates soon to be open, there will be more girls that Adolin can try, before we decide he exausthed all options. Shallan isn't the last girl is Althetkar, I assume there are plenty of red heads in Jah Keved besides Shallan.   I am only joking, I don't expect to see that.

 I realised I might look like I am defending Kaladin over Adolin and I don't want that. But the way you depicted Adolin in these last few posts made him look like he needs it. And I don't think he needs it in this context. As other people pointed today, he is not a victim, he is not weak, nor dull, the majority of the people you talk with on this forum (from the conversations I saw) understand that Adolin is great, that he has so much potential. I hate seeing him depicted as a poor little lamb, nobody loves and everyone forgets about. I understand you get defensive over him because you had to fight for him over the years, but right now (especially in the context of this thread) I want to belive we are talking about Adolin from the same level. I am not underestimating him in any way. 

I don't think who gets the girl is what will add satisfying growth for any of the characters. It won't mean one is better than the other. Do you really belive that is the only way for Adolin to have a satisfying growth? Through a relationship ?! 

As I said, the basis of every relationship is, or should be friendship. If the friendship is strong enough, it can last even though the relatioship failed. At this point in the story, I don't belive Adolin/Shallan are that emotionally invested that they couldn't overcome their problems and be friends if they were to broke up. So yes, I think if Brandon wants it to be that way, he could easily do it and be plausible. 

As for Adolin exausting his options with all the girls in Alethkar, I won't hold my breath. The way he approaches relationships and treats his dates, matters to me when I get to analize why something didn't work. I think it's a relevant thing that should be taken into consideration. Also the emphasis on "every girl" might be just for the sake of the story. I am sure if Brandon wants Adolin to end up with someone else, he can introduce a character written in such a way that it would be beliveable for the reader that they fit or ar suited for eachother.

My belief is that one doesn't only have one meaningful relationship in life. Flings/attempts at relationships don't teach you that much about feelings or how to be in a relationship and we know Adolin had a lot of those, but he didn't have a closer connection to someone. I don't think that is the only or the strongest reason he should be with Shallan. Why can't he have a meaningful thing with her, that would teach him a thing or two about how relationships actually work and also find/love with someone else in the future? I don't say that I want to happen or this is how it should be resolved, but why do you think it's impossible? I still don't see what makes her so special in his eyes. Most people love more than one person in a lifetime. I get, this is a fantasy novel, not a romance one and we don't have time to see Adolin find "the one", but I feel like the notion of "the one" is a bit overrated. One can have a lot of special people in their lifetime and can learn from each of them. 

Ok. I'm done. I've ranted too much. I am sorry if I come across a bit heated in the beginning of the post. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I just wanted to throw in, that he compares Shallan and her effect on him to Tien. And you know how important Tien was to him.

Tien was his brother, not his lover. If the comparison implies a connection, this connection never needed to be romantic to exists as his connection to Tien wasn't.

I should have phrased my thoughts differently, I meant how is Shallan more important, in a romantic manner, to Kaladin than she is to Adolin? In short how is it more important, romantically speaking (we aren't speaking of friendship or anything) for Kaladin to succeed with Shallan than for Adolin? How is it more dramatic for Kaladin not to have a romantic relationship with Shallan (but perhaps have a friendship relationship) than it is for Adolin?