[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Right now, reading this thread, i try to rethink my attitude towards Shadolin, and the main result i got is that i find Adolin the character who cant stand on his own. He always is a support character, addition to Dalinar (assistant), or Kaladin (foil), or Shallan (lover). As a character he is less fledged than Moash who has a strong purpose, and goal, and goes towards it. That leads me to desire to see Adolin alone. Or not alone, but doing something meaningfull on his own. Creating his own story, without the need to be only an addition to Shallan, or Dalinar, or Kaladin. I hope his new tasks will allow him to do this.

I have to agree there. I mean let us think this through. I always read, that Adolin needs Shallan for character growth. Okay: Adolin and Shallan marry, they are together. What happens next? Adolin has gotten over his relationship problem. Is his character fully developed?

And moreover, should he find another purpose. Why is being with Shallan a prerequisite for him fulfilling that purpose?

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

 

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't think we have much support for Shallan being in love with/obsessed with Adolin either. (Once again I caveat that they are both interested in each other romantically so as to not be misunderstood.) On the other hand, I DO think Dalinar thinks about Navani a lot, even when she's not around, and this helps make it explicitly clear that Dalinar is in love/obsessed with Navani. 

I would argue that thinking about someone when you're doing something that has nothing to do with them (i.e. fighting in battle, young Dalinar as an example) is one of the hallmarks of love/obsession. That person is simply always on your mind. 

We have much more of Dalinar's chapters and he has a long history with Navani plus she's present during a significant proportion of the time, so I can't say this is compelling evidence. Plus Adolin and Shallan aren't unexplained instant love, it builds slowly, you can't compare it with a decades old attraction.

[mariapapadia she/her]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

One of the things I find interesting about this debate is that many people say they hate love triangles and even that they will not or may not enjoy the book should a love triangle emerge here. And I get it. I actually hate love triangles too; I read a lot of YA, and I don't enjoy and will even avoid series' which have a love triangle.  I realized very early on in WoR we were headed down this road (as soon as the Adolin/Kaladin antagonism started - so I want to say Chapter 4) and texted my friend who recommend SA to me (and knows my love triangle hatred) all, ughhhhh whyyyyy. She assured me it wasn't bad and didn't overwhelm the story. And I've found I really enjoyed the storyline! I read Mistborn Era 1 after SA and found love triangle to be annoying (not enough to put me off the series, but I could have done without), so I can see why readers don't have faith in Sanderson to execute correctly though. 

I dislike love triangles in general as well. Even in Sanderson's previous books like Mistborn 1& whatever that was in Mistborn 2,  I wasn't much of a fan . Needless to say about other books. But what I find so compelling about this potential love triangle and why I am interested to see it, is because it's an equilateral one. Or it could be. Like perfect harmony. You don't offen see the posibility to go there in books. This is why it makes me think, whatever way it goes, it would fit. And that is a mature way to do it, if people don't come and try to make it rectangular, or whatever. Hope you get my math metaphor. Also I like these characters much more than others and I feel they are equally developed in regards to their personality. You can't say one of them is better than the other, they all have their redeeming and less redeeming qualities. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Harbour he/him]

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

 

And moreover, should he find another purpose. Why is being with Shallan a prerequisite for him fulfilling that purpose?

Yep, right now i see his purpose as "Help my father", "protect my family", "not screw up my relationships with Shallan". It revolves around small group of people and looks like an essential purpose every character could have. It doesnt make up a really interesting and strong character progression. I have a feeling Brandon should make him... more ambitious, i guess, to stop being an addition, figurally a hound for Dalinar to bite enemies. I want him to start thinking "what i need to do now?", where i should go". And then go to do this. Cause while Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan has many cards in their sleeves to carry the chapters, Adolin doesnt have it. Few POVs he got in OB are those where he does insignificant job to forget about Sadeas or, again, shared scene with Renarin where we once again see him as a good guy and the guy who does nothing significant. He has nothing to carry own chapters. I hope Brandon will give him some purpose, or forge him the one.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Harbour

[Aleksiel]

2 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Yep, right now i see his purpose as "Help my father", "protect my family", "not screw up my relationships with Shallan". It revolves around small group of people and looks like an essential purpose every character could have. It doesnt make up a really interesting and strong character progression. I have a feeling Brandon should make him... more ambitious, i guess, to stop being an addition, figurally a hound for Dalinar to bite enemies. I want him to start thinking "what i need to do now?", where i should go". And then go to do this. Cause while Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan has many cards in their sleeves to carry the chapters, Adolin doesnt have it. Few POVs he got in OB are those where he does insignificant job to forget about Sadeas or, again, shared scene with Renarin where we once again see him as a good guy and the guy who does nothing significant. He has nothing to carry own chapters. I hope Brando will give me some purpose, or forge him the one.

Kaladin: protect my brother - protect my men

Shallan: protect my family (steal a soulcaster) - fulfill Jasnah's quest

Both could be reduced to Dalinar's side characters on his quest to find the most important words. I don't see how you find Moash better fleshed out than Adolin.

[mariapapadia she/her]

8 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Yep, right now i see his purpose as "Help my father", "protect my family", "not screw up my relationships with Shallan". It revolves around small group of people and looks like an essential purpose every character could have. It doesnt make up a really interesting and strong character progression. I have a feeling Brandon should make him... more ambitious, i guess, to stop being an addition, figurally a hound for Dalinar to bite enemies. I want him to start thinking "what i need to do now?", where i should go". And then go to do this. Cause while Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan has many cards in their sleeves to carry the chapters, Adolin doesnt have it. Few POVs he got in OB are those where he does insignificant job to forget about Sadeas or, again, shared scene with Renarin where we once again see him as a good guy and the guy who does nothing significant. He has nothing to carry own chapters. I hope Brandon will give him some purpose, or forge him the one.

Brandon states in one of his lecture about how to build characters, that you have to find a balance when it comes to them, otherwise they will end up being either "too perfect" or "too weak" (or something along those lines). He then proceeds to explain how one can chose 3 main traits for a character like : pro-active, likeable and smart. And it explains that if the level is up on all 3, the character is to perfect, so depending on what suits the story best, he could chose to make him less pro-active, super likeable and average smart. And that makes the character have some "handicaps" or flaws depending on the traits he choses to exploit. If we are to analize every character in the book we could apply this pattern. Adolin in my opinion is super likeable for the reader and people around him, he is kind and nice, he's also a warrior and handome and the list goes on. So if Brandon gives him something, he also has to take something. And we see Adolin's handicaps when it's difficult for him to connect, when he let his anger overcome him with Sadeas and so on and so forth. It all balances out. This is why I think Sanderson's characters are the best I've ever read and they get people so invested. They are so complex and interestesting to read even if they are a street urchin that appears for one chapter, or a main character that has the leading POV.

 

[Starla]

2 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

He really could go left field and create ShaKaldolin.  But this isn't erotica so most likely not.

He did finish The Wheel of Time, so he has some experience in writing this type of relationship. Maybe we don't have to completely rule it out. 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Nebty said:

Again, though, I hate that kind of argument. It implies that the most fulfilling and self-actualizing thing Adolin can do is get the right girlfriend. But a girlfriend's not going to solve the underlying reasons for why he sabotages his own relationships. You can't rely on other people to solve your problems for you. Even if your girlfriend's the most wonderful, perfect person in the world. I can imagine a fulfilling character arc for Adolin in which him and Shallan break up and stay friends, but where he also manages to improve himself and become a happier, healthier person. I can imagine it for all of them. Because they are not their relationships - they're well-rounded characters who have their own rich inner lives and their own problems that they're going to have to deal with.

Meta-analysis is basically to accept that this is fiction and to take the author's perspective. I'm sorry you hate it and I can't say I like it that much myself but it is real, though obviously subjective. I don't like it because (as you say yourself) it can gloss over the characters themselves, but it can help in reducing the complexity of the arguments.

Brandon has compared being a professional writer to being a "chef" rather than a "cook" - ie what's the difference between a professional cook and a amateur. There's many things but technique and skill is obviously one but it's also a matter of having an intuitive feeling for what works and what doesn't based on experience and in addition for having methods to analyse problems and fix them (or to study why certain things worked). It's also important to have the right ingredients too of course, but if you don't have the skills then the best ingredients can't shine.

In general, an author wants their work to be satisfying to read for their audience. It's up to them to decide what audience they want to target - being a successful professional writer doesn't require one to have a large audience, so this is not an argument that all writers have to target the mass market or anything like that. For the work overall to be satisfying that requires interesting characters, plot, world-build etc and also for problems to be resolved in satisfying ways. Of course, that doesn't require every step along the way to be satisfying and there's always going to be some readers who will be disappointed. As part of this, Brandon also talks about fulfilling "promises to the reader" - the topical example of this would be "Adolin is clearly presented as having deep seated issues with romantic relationships. He wants to solve this problem and as the heir to a Princedom he is obliged to so and to do so soon". It is obvious enough that readers can reasonably except this to be resolved one way or another. It's not a guarantee that it would be resolved or that it would be resolved in a satisfying way but that is a reasonable expectation. Maybe it won't work out with Shallan and instead Adolin will be obliged to marry some convenient minor character out of necessity - but that would probably be less satisfying. Or maybe he'll be disinherited and no longer be obliged to marry any time soon - but that would probably be less satisfying.

So to be clear, just because I'm using meta-analysis I'm not saying that there's only one possible solution. It's to say "this solution seems more likely than the others based on fundamental story-writing principals". To be honest, I don't mind being wrong - if my predictions were particularly accurate, the story would be boring. So if the author only uses the "obvious" solutions then that has it's own problems.

 

btw, with regards to "you can't rely on other people to solve your problems for you": I agree, but I don't think this is the argument being made and I don't see people arguing that Shallan will somehow present Adolin with the solution to his problems without him doing anything. I'm not sure how you expect Adolin to resolve this problem entirely by himself because a successful romantic relationship specifically requires two people. If Adolin could somehow gain enlightenment all by himself and his next relationship "just works" then that would invite the obvious question "then why didn't he do that earlier!?" (and could also reduce the girl in question to simply being lucky). Shallan would not be able to help indirectly solve Adolin's problems if Adolin himself is not motivated - it's precisely because he's strongly attracted to her that he could be motivated enough to overcome his problems. But if Shallan was the type to dump Adolin at the first sign of trouble then the relationship would likely also fail. So it requires the right combination of characters, but it's still up to Adolin to do his bit.

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I have to agree and disagree here. I agree that Shallan has been solving her problems so far. I mean, she has to be the one to solve her problems for herself. There is no one who can solve them for her, but others can help her.

I disagree that Shallans Problem is lack of confidence in herself. And I remain with me saying, that right now Adolin is actually making it harder for her to solve her problem with the Patternblade. I argued why on the previous page. And also why I think, that Kaladin is the person, she needs to consult with in that matter.

I didn't mean to imply that Shallan's main "Problem" is a lack of confidence in herself. It's one of her many problems. I would say it's quite an important one though - the less confidence she has in herself the less likely she is to attempt to take action.

With regards to what Adolin pushed Shallan to do in chapter 15, it's hard to say how this'll turn out but I disagree that Adolin is making it harder for her (It's too soon to say). Pattern himself says "This is good. This needs to be done". On the positive side, it's forcing Shallan to do something painful and difficult which should help her get used to it with time. On the negative side, Shallan is sort-of cheating her way around the problem in this specific scenario. Whether the positives will outweigh the negatives long term is a rather tricky discussion.

 

8 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't think we have much support for Shallan being in love with/obsessed with Adolin either. (Once again I caveat that they are both interested in each other romantically so as to not be misunderstood.) On the other hand, I DO think Dalinar thinks about Navani a lot, even when she's not around, and this helps make it explicitly clear that Dalinar is in love/obsessed with Navani. 

I would argue that thinking about someone when you're doing something that has nothing to do with them (i.e. fighting in battle, young Dalinar as an example) is one of the hallmarks of love/obsession. That person is simply always on your mind. 

I don't remember Dalinar thinking about Navani that often when she's not present (or just before or after she was present). Right now, I can only think of two examples when Shallan was thinking of Adolin outside of such scenarios. But then, we don't see Shallan thinking about her brothers all that frequently either and I don't think there's much doubt that she loves them as family. The point isn't to argue that Shallan is love struck or obsessed with Adolin - more that she at least strongly likes him and also probably loves him to some degree. I think her thoughts of him and her feelings when they're together are plenty good evidence:

 

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Aleksiel said:

 

We have much more of Dalinar's chapters and he has a long history with Navani plus she's present during a significant proportion of the time, so I can't say this is compelling evidence. Plus Adolin and Shallan aren't unexplained instant love, it builds slowly, you can't compare it with a decades old attraction.

I was responding to someone else who said that Dalinar isn't portrayed as thinking about Navani when she isn't present (and thus that it was not illustrative of anything that Adolin isn't portrayed as thinking about Shallan), which I didn't think was true 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Dreamstorm
Tried to consolidate with other post. Failed.

[Dreamstorm]

13 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't remember Dalinar thinking about Navani that often when she's not present (or just before or after she was present).

 

 

He thinks about her even when she's not present in both of the flashback chapters so far.  His love and obsession with Navani is a huge part of his character as presented by the author. So far, the author has not made the effort to present Adolin's feelings for Shallan in the same manner. That doesn't mean those feelings aren't there, just that we as the reader haven't been shown them in an explicit manner. I'm not saying Adolin and Shallan should be at the same stage feelings-wise as Dalinar is with Navani, but whereas we have been very explicitly shown Dalinar's feelings, and thus no one doubts Dalinar feels incredibly intensely and it's not a subject of debate, we have not been given even close to this same level of clarity with regard to Adolin's feelings for Shallan. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

With regards to what Adolin pushed Shallan to do in chapter 15, it's hard to say how this'll turn out but I disagree that Adolin is making it harder for her (It's too soon to say). Pattern himself says "This is good. This needs to be done". On the positive side, it's forcing Shallan to do something painful and difficult which should help her get used to it with time. On the negative side, Shallan is sort-of cheating her way around the problem in this specific scenario. Whether the positives will outweigh the negatives long term is a rather tricky discussion.

Yes. Pattern said that in response to Shallan being confronted to using him as a Blade. He is right it needs to be done. But Shallan goes into full protection mode and has a good time with Adolin - while not being herself. I think it sets a dangerous precedent. And Shallan is prone to falling into these false identities. Adolin doesn‘t know it, but he enables it.

And I don‘t really think Pattern can help her with that. He sees himself as the problem, even gives Shallan the choice to kill him. He thinks she hates him.

[Nebty]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

btw, with regards to "you can't rely on other people to solve your problems for you": I agree, but I don't think this is the argument being made and I don't see people arguing that Shallan will somehow present Adolin with the solution to his problems without him doing anything. I'm not sure how you expect Adolin to resolve this problem entirely by himself because a successful romantic relationship specifically requires two people. If Adolin could somehow gain enlightenment all by himself and his next relationship "just works" then that would invite the obvious question "then why didn't he do that earlier!?" (and could also reduce the girl in question to simply being lucky). Shallan would not be able to help indirectly solve Adolin's problems if Adolin himself is not motivated - it's precisely because he's strongly attracted to her that he could be motivated enough to overcome his problems. But if Shallan was the type to dump Adolin at the first sign of trouble then the relationship would likely also fail. So it requires the right combination of characters, but it's still up to Adolin to do his bit.

I just don't see how Adolin being presented as having problems with lasting romantic relationships necessarily means that what he needs is a successful romantic relationship with Shallan. Sure, I get that there are romance-related developments in his future. But wouldn't that foreshadowing be equally relevant if his relationship with Shallan also fails? Because his hangups with romance aren't because he just hasn't found the right girl, and now that he has he's finally motivated to try; they come from internal issues that he needs to acknowledge and deal with. So in one scenario, he deals with those issues because he really wants to hold on to Shallan and realizes that he needs to change in order for that to happen. In another scenario, these issues cause them to break up, which makes him realize that he needs to do some soul-searching because he finally lost a girl he actually cared about and he doesn't want it to happen again. Both equally plausible, and both fulfilling that promise to the readers that Adolin will, in some way, realize that he sabotages his romantic relationships and finally learns to confront it and change. The latter may be more painful for him, but it's still a satisfying resolution. And I don't think that things not working out with Shallan would lead to him turning evil or spiralling into depression. Breakups suck, but it could also be a catalyst for character growth.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Nebty

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Harbour said:

As a character he is less fledged than Moash who has a strong purpose, and goal, and goes towards it.

While everyone is entitled to his perspective and his opinions, I think you are being unfair with this one. Adolin has viewpoints and an independent story, something Moash's character hasn't gotten so far, so while it is true Adolin's story arc has mingled a lot with other characters story arc, the same could be said about Dalinar. And Kaladin. And Shallan. And everyone else. Besides, Adolin's story arc pretty much stands on his own in OB so far: he is nobody's foil.

I mean, I can understand why people aren't all that interested into Adolin, this is only natural, but to say he is a lesser character, within the existing narrative than Moash is pushing it a tad too far. It also really isn't fair and we should all try to be fair to all characters, even the ones we like the less.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

He thinks about her even when she's not present in both of the flashback chapters so far.  His love and obsession with Navani is a huge part of his character as presented by the author. So far, the author has not made the effort to present Adolin's feelings for Shallan in the same manner. That doesn't mean those feelings aren't there, just that we as the reader haven't been shown them in an explicit manner. I'm not saying Adolin and Shallan should be at the same stage feelings-wise as Dalinar is with Navani, but whereas we have been very explicitly shown Dalinar's feelings, and thus no one doubts Dalinar feels incredibly intensely and it's not a subject of debate, we have not been given even close to this same level of clarity with regard to Adolin's feelings for Shallan. 

This is an unfair statement. Dalinar has been in love with Navani for more than 30 years. At the earliest we see him, he had already met and fall in love with Navani, so yes, he does think about her. Adolin and Shallan has known each other for 2 months: how about giving them a bit of time to built up their relationship? It is unfair to state because neither is seen thinking about the other as often as Dalinar thinks about Navani means they don't like each other. The ONLY viewpoint we had of Adolin, after he started dating Shallan, is the one where he meets Sadeas in the stormcellar. He is hopelessly positive about the relationship, he likes Shallan very much and is eager to carry on. No other viewpoints he has had, including those in OB, are ones which allowed him to think about Shallan as they were all meant to portray him thinking about other things. On the other hand, Dalinar's main narrative has always been more simplistic than Adolin and it has revolved around his forbidden love for Navani, so yes, the subject is tackled more often. However to state it is reason enough to say: "Hey Adolin and Shallan do not even love each other, all they have is superficial physical attraction" is doing a great disservice to Brandon having written so many body languages and unsaid signs which point in the opposite direction. 

To state neither Adolin nor Shallan have real feelings towards each other is really purposefully ignoring the story to prove a point. Whether or not Shallan ends up with Adolin, it is obvious these two do feel something for the other.

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

In general, an author wants their work to be satisfying to read for their audience. It's up to them to decide what audience they want to target - being a successful professional writer doesn't require one to have a large audience, so this is not an argument that all writers have to target the mass market or anything like that. For the work overall to be satisfying that requires interesting characters, plot, world-build etc and also for problems to be resolved in satisfying ways. Of course, that doesn't require every step along the way to be satisfying and there's always going to be some readers who will be disappointed. As part of this, Brandon also talks about fulfilling "promises to the reader" - the topical example of this would be "Adolin is clearly presented as having deep seated issues with romantic relationships. He wants to solve this problem and as the heir to a Princedom he is obliged to so and to do so soon". It is obvious enough that readers can reasonably except this to be resolved one way or another. It's not a guarantee that it would be resolved or that it would be resolved in a satisfying way but that is a reasonable expectation. Maybe it won't work out with Shallan and instead Adolin will be obliged to marry some convenient minor character out of necessity - but that would probably be less satisfying. Or maybe he'll be disinherited and no longer be obliged to marry any time soon - but that would probably be less satisfying.

Yes, this. Brandon may write whatever he wants, but not all prospective story arc will yield the same result within the fandom. The author does not have to give Adolin a "happy ending" nor doe he need to give him "resolution" with the relationship department, but it is lying to think readers are not expecting it. Well, maybe not the readers within this thread, but within the larger bigger world which is the fandom, it has been a reasonable expectation built within the text. Of course, the author does not have to answer to all readers expectations, but sometimes ignoring them makes up for a less satisfying story. 

So while it may be there are readers who would be satisfied with Adolin becoming the Highprince, marrying so minor unnamed girl and keep on doing what he has been doing so far, but I wouldn't be one of them. I feel it would be cheating: if this is all the author wanted to write for Adolin, then why give him any viewpoints once his role in WoK was over? 

32 minutes ago, Nebty said:

I just don't see how Adolin being presented as having problems with lasting romantic relationships necessarily means that what he needs is a successful romantic relationship with Shallan. Sure, I get that there are romance-related developments in his future. But wouldn't that foreshadowing be equally relevant if his relationship with Shallan also fails? Because his hangups with romance aren't because he just hasn't found the right girl, and now that he has he's finally motivated to try; they come from internal issues that he needs to acknowledge and deal with. So in one scenario, he deals with those issues because he really wants to hold on to Shallan and realizes that he needs to change in order for that to happen. In another scenario, these issues cause them to break up, which makes him realize that he needs to do some soul-searching because he finally lost a girl he actually cared about and he doesn't want it to happen again. Both equally plausible, and both fulfilling that promise to the readers that Adolin will, in some way, realize that he sabotages his romantic relationships and finally learns to confront it and change. The latter may be more painful for him, but it's still a satisfying resolution. And I don't think that things not working out with Shallan would lead to him turning evil or spiralling into depression. Breakups suck, but it could also be a catalyst for character growth.

Adolin's issues with girls aren't because he never found the right one: he dated so many of them it is illogical to think not one of them would have been suitable. Had he dated 3 or 4 girls but didn't think they were the right ones, but 50, 60 girls? Besides, Brandon actually told us why Adolin is falling and it isn't because he hasn't find the "right one", it is because he is afraid to fail. For some reasons, Shallan managed to give Adolin enough confidence to move forward: no other girl did this for him which is why I am arguing she is the right one. Not because she is "different", but because she is "different", for him.

What Adolin needs is much more than "motivation" to try harder, this is doing a disservice to the character to think his issues are him needing to try "harder". His issues will not vanish because it seems like it works, at first, with Shallan.

As for Adolin doing soul-searching, I think this goes beyond the scope of the story. I also think it a too simplistic solution as if Adolin's problems were so benign they can be wave away with a magic wand because it makes it easier for Shallan to be with Kaladin. Now, I agree he will not spiral down into depression (he isn't the depressive type) nor he would turn out evil (though there is more chances of this happening is everyone turns their back on him). I also agree about break-ups being great catalyst. What I disagree about is how likely the story is to give Adolin another valid chance at romance.

3 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Thank you. People claim well written love triangles exist, but I am yet to read one. 

Actually, I don't mind love triangles  It might be because I haven't read my share of teenage angst love triangles  but I do not mind the trope all that much. I do think it can be well executed and I never argued the love triangle should not happen. What I am arguing about is its foregone conclusion.

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

He thinks about her even when she's not present in both of the flashback chapters so far.  His love and obsession with Navani is a huge part of his character as presented by the author. So far, the author has not made the effort to present Adolin's feelings for Shallan in the same manner. That doesn't mean those feelings aren't there, just that we as the reader haven't been shown them in an explicit manner. I'm not saying Adolin and Shallan should be at the same stage feelings-wise as Dalinar is with Navani, but whereas we have been very explicitly shown Dalinar's feelings, and thus no one doubts Dalinar feels incredibly intensely and it's not a subject of debate, we have not been given even close to this same level of clarity with regard to Adolin's feelings for Shallan. 

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

This is an unfair statement. Dalinar has been in love with Navani for more than 30 years. At the earliest we see him, he had already met and fall in love with Navani, so yes, he does think about her. Adolin and Shallan has known each other for 2 months: how about giving them a bit of time to built up their relationship? It is unfair to state because neither is seen thinking about the other as often as Dalinar thinks about Navani means they don't like each other. The ONLY viewpoint we had of Adolin, after he started dating Shallan, is the one where he meets Sadeas in the stormcellar. He is hopelessly positive about the relationship, he likes Shallan very much and is eager to carry on. No other viewpoints he has had, including those in OB, are ones which allowed him to think about Shallan as they were all meant to portray him thinking about other things. On the other hand, Dalinar's main narrative has always been more simplistic than Adolin and it has revolved around his forbidden love for Navani, so yes, the subject is tackled more often. However to state it is reason enough to say: "Hey Adolin and Shallan do not even love each other, all they have is superficial physical attraction" is doing a great disservice to Brandon having written so many body languages and unsaid signs which point in the opposite direction. 

To state neither Adolin nor Shallan have real feelings towards each other is really purposefully ignoring the story to prove a point. Whether or not Shallan ends up with Adolin, it is obvious these two do feel something for the other.

Hey - I don't want this to get personal, but it really feels like you are deliberately misinterpreting me.  I included my own quotes below to show I am in NO WAY saying Adolin "doesn't like" or have "real feelings" towards Shallan (those sections of your post bolded above).  In fact I have explicitly said the opposite.  I provided evidence that there is no textual support that Adolin is desperately in love with Shallan and she is "the one".  It feels like you don't like the fairly objective fact of this (lack of textual support) so you are twisting it around to something you CAN easily defend - that Adolin does like Shallan and has real feelings for her.  Maybe there are others debating that Adolin does not have romantic feelings toward Shallan, but I certainly, and explicitly, am not.  I am discussing the intensity of Adolin's feelings, not that they exist.

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I feel like I need to emphasize so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'm not saying AT ALL that Adolin doesn't like Shallan in a romantic sense.  That seems pretty clear.  I'm just saying that from the text it's very much a matter of personal interpretation (and to me, a bit of a stretch) to say he is in love with her and she is to him "the one".

 

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

(Once again I caveat that they are both interested in each other romantically so as to not be misunderstood.) 

On the Dalinar/Navani point, also as I mentioned previously, that came from someone else saying Dalinar doesn't think about Navani when she isn't present.  He does in fact do so.  Yes, their relationship is at a VERY different stage.  That is in fact my exact point...  Adolin's feelings towards Shallan as presented to us by Sanderson are not as intense as Daliner's feelings towards Navani as presented to us by Sanderson, which (to me) makes sense given the stage of their relationship.  Please take note of the "presented to us by Sanderson" language above; I do not know how Adolin feels about Shallan beyond what he's said and his thoughts in his POVs. But, Sanderson knows full well how to emphasize (sometimes painfully, i.e. Mistborn era 1 beginning of WoA) extreme romantic feelings.  So far he hasn't done so with Adolin's feelings towards Shallan.

I would note that you seem to now concede (maybe unintentionally) a point you tried to make earlier that Shallan is Adolin's Navani.  Shallan could develop into someone whom Adolin is portrayed as feeling about the way Dalinar is portrayed as feeling about Navani, but at this moment in the story "neither is seen thinking about the other as often as Dalinar thinks about Navani".  I am very happy with "giving [Adolin and Shallan] a bit of time to built up their relationship" - but are you?

Edited October 2, 2017 by Dreamstorm
Clarification

[asterion137 he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

For some reasons, Shallan managed to give Adolin enough confidence to move forward: no other girl did this for him which is why I am arguing she is the right one. Not because she is "different", but because she is "different", for him.

Has Adolin really never maintained a relationship for more than a few months, though? They really haven't been through that much together yet.

[Nebty]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Besides, Brandon actually told us why Adolin is falling and it isn't because he hasn't find the "right one", it is because he is afraid to fail.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

What Adolin needs is much more than "motivation" to try harder, this is doing a disservice to the character to think his issues are him needing to try "harder". His issues will not vanish because it seems like it works, at first, with Shallan.

Yup, that is exactly what I meant when I said, "his hangups with romance aren't because he just hasn't found the right girl, and now that he has he's finally motivated to try". It looks like we...agree?

And because his issues aren't external, they won't be fixed externally either. Shallan may be different for Adolin, but he's still the same person who hasn't yet been able to keep a steady relationship. That doesn't mean I don't support their relationship or want it to fail. But I also don't think that his relationship with Shallan is particularly world-shattering or unique in the grand scheme of things. And I also don't think that it's his only path to happiness.

2 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Adolin doing soul-searching, I think this goes beyond the scope of the story. I also think it a too simplistic solution as if Adolin's problems were so benign they can be wave away with a magic wand because it makes it easier for Shallan to be with Kaladin. Now, I agree he will not spiral down into depression (he isn't the depressive type) nor he would turn out evil (though there is more chances of this happening is everyone turns their back on him). I also agree about break-ups being great catalyst. What I disagree about is how likely the story is to give Adolin another valid chance at romance.

Maybe, maybe not. And does Adolin really need a romantic relationship by the end of the story? I think the whole 'Adolin is bad at hanging onto romantic relationships' thing could be addressed in a satisfying way without necessarily meaning he has to end up with anyone in the first half of the series. There's more to his character than that. And I feel the same way about all of the characters, honestly. Shallan doesn't need to end up with anybody in particular. Neither does Kaladin.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Nebty

[Ramza1890]

Shoot, I bet if Shallan had seen him arrive to fight Szeth on the shattered plains this would be a whole different story. Talk about a swoonable moment.

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, Ramza1890 said:

Shoot, I bet if Shallan had seen him arrive to fight Szeth on the shattered plains this would be a whole different story. Talk about a swoonable moment.

Adolin can attest to that - smiling, satisfied, a man  #kadolinforever

Quote

“Damnation,” Adolin said. “That bridgeboy is really one of them? The Knights Radiant?”

“Yes.”

Oddly, Adolin smiled, seeming satisfied. “Ha! I knew there was something wrong with that man.”

 

[+Wax he/him]

On 29/09/2017 at 7:19 AM, Jace21 said:

 

I personally am not particularly invested in either of Shadolin or Shalladin as far as the SA end game goes.

 

Ditto.  Neither will work anyway.  Waiting for the next angle in Arc2 

[Duke of Lizards she/her]

Wow.  There has been some great analysis from both sides!  I'm really impressed by how well you guys have examined these characters!

I'd like to know if anyone shares this opinion...and I'm kind of going to play devil's advocate for a moment.  (I'm also going to admit that this may be a bit harsh...and I want to make it very very clear that I love Shallan as a character just as much as the boys).  Does anyone else think that the boys would both be better off, at least for now, by running fast in the other direction?  Shallan has a whole lot of issues to work out and I assume that these issues may be damaging to any romantic relationship that she tries to form.  I see some of the arguments for each ship operating under the assumption that Shallan is the prize.  Does anyone else see her as potentially being toxic for a relationship? I recognize that the same argument could be made for the guys.  

I'm preparing myself for some harsh criticism...please be gentle...I recognize that this may be unpopular.

  

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Duke of Lizards said:

I'm preparing myself for some harsh criticism...please be gentle...I recognize that this may be unpopular.

Why? You make an interesting proposition, nothing wrong with that.

I tend to agree. Right now, she's probably far from ready for a lasting romantic relationship. On the other hand, a relationship with a supportive guy could actually help, but I'm not sure if either Kaladin or Adolin are the best for that. I'd lean to Kaladin, because of his own (bettering) depression and because he probably could relate, but it could also be a destructive relationship, because they both have problems. I don't know.

What I am sure of is that any relationship only can work on honesty and trust and Shallan doesn't seem to be able to get honest with Adolin. Though it could happen, with Brightness Radiant now being a safe refuge for her, I tend to be pessimistic about that.

Edited October 6, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

On 06/10/2017 at 3:43 PM, Duke of Lizards said:

Wow.  There has been some great analysis from both sides!  I'm really impressed by how well you guys have examined these characters!

I'd like to know if anyone shares this opinion...and I'm kind of going to play devil's advocate for a moment.  (I'm also going to admit that this may be a bit harsh...and I want to make it very very clear that I love Shallan as a character just as much as the boys).  Does anyone else think that the boys would both be better off, at least for now, by running fast in the other direction?  Shallan has a whole lot of issues to work out and I assume that these issues may be damaging to any romantic relationship that she tries to form.  I see some of the arguments for each ship operating under the assumption that Shallan is the prize.  Does anyone else see her as potentially being toxic for a relationship? I recognize that the same argument could be made for the guys.  

I'm preparing myself for some harsh criticism...please be gentle...I recognize that this may be unpopular. 

I would say that the evidence to date shows that the vast majority of people benefit from Shallan's presence.

Of course that, past performance is not a prediction of future results and all that. But, if you want to start with the assumption that she's now toxic then you can predict all sorts of toxic effects on those around her but that isn't much of an argument. I've posted enough about where I think Shallan is right now so I'm not going to say any more on that subject until we get some more chapters on her. So far at least in Oathbringer I don't see any negative side effects on those she's in some sort of relationship with but her interactions have been relatively limited so far.

[kari-no-sugata]

From Words of Radiance, Chapter 44:

Quote

"Not bad," Yake said, following Kaladin's gaze.

"Not bad at what?" Kaladin asked, trying to figure out what the woman was doing.

"Not bad looking, Captain," Yake said with a laugh. "Storms! Sometimes, it seems the only thing you think about is who has to be on duty next."

Nearby, Syl nodded emphatically.

"She's lighteyed," Kaladin said.

"So?" Yake said, slapping him on the shoulder, "A lighteyed lady can't be attractive?"

"No." It was simple as that.

 

For Oathbringer, Chapter 10:

Quote

“Come on,” Syl said. “What about that Lightweaver? You seemed to like her.”

The words struck uncomfortably close to the truth. “Shallan is engaged to Dalinar’s son.”

“So? You’re better than him. I don’t trust him one bit.”

“You don’t trust anyone who carries a Shardblade, Syl,” Kaladin said with a sigh. “We’ve been over this. It’s not a mark of bad character to have bonded one of the weapons.”

“Yes, well, let’s have someone swing around the corpse of your sisters by the feet, and we’ll see whether you consider it a ‘mark of bad character’ or not. This is a distraction. Like that Lightweaver could be for you…”

“Shallan’s a lighteyes,” Kaladin said. “That’s the end of the conversation.”

“But—”

“End,” he said, stepping into the home of the village lighteyes. Then he added under his breath, “And stop spying on people when they’re being intimate. It’s creepy.”

 

Kaladin has changed somewhat between WoR and OB in this regard, but he seems quite unwilling to even consider a having a romantic relationship with a lighteyes. Though we'll have to wait and see how serious he is about that if there is a real opportunity. Eg, even if he knows he does have feelings for a particular lighteyed woman, would he still deny those feelings when face-to-face with her because of his general feelings towards lighteyes?

Here's a possible scenario: Kaladin returns to Urithiru and sees/hears about Amaram being there (which he should be given his last scene in WoR) and he goes undercover to investigate. Let's say that during such an investigation he meets Shallan (disguised as Veil). It's possible that Veil (or rather Shallan) would be interested in tracking down Amaram too (unless she's already heard that it was Kaladin who killed the Shardbearer who was probably Helaran), so they could team up. Let's say for the sake of example that Kaladin doesn't find out that Veil=Shallan for long enough that he develops feelings for Veil. How do you think he would react if he then found out that Veil=Shallan? Would he then decide to accept lighteyes as a romantic interest or would he reject Veil/Shallan... or something else?

Edited October 8, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Kaladin has changed somewhat between WoR and OB in this regard, but he seems quite unwilling to even consider a having a romantic relationship with a lighteyes. Though we'll have to wait and see how serious he is about that if there is a real opportunity. Eg, even if he knows he does have feelings for a particular lighteyed woman, would he still deny those feelings when face-to-face with her because of his general feelings towards lighteyes?

Ehhhhh, you seem to forget what happened in between. I really get the feeling, that he's pushing "she's lighteyed" to suppress his feelings. Like already established, he doesn't want to interfere in Adolin's and Shallan's relationship.

59 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Let's say for the sake of example that Kaladin doesn't find out that Veil=Shallan for long enough that he develops feelings for Veil. How do you think he would react if he then found out that Veil=Shallan? Would he then decide to accept lighteyes as a romantic interest or would he reject Veil/Shallan... or something else?

He probably would get angry for the deception, especially because Shallan knows him. Could be a major conflict point, because it could reawake his feelings, that lighteyes like to toy with darkeyes.

[PlanetReelo she/her]

On 01/10/2017 at 9:31 PM, Aleksiel said:

The characters aren't cliche, but the road to Shalladin is. I won't be shamed into liking.

Relax, no one is 'shaming you' in to liking anything. I've noticed that Shallan and Adolin shippers like to complain about cliche tropes as and when it suits them. If we're talking about cliches, the old 'longstanding womaniser who finally changes for that one 'different' girl' trope makes my eyes roll to the back of my skull. So it's really more a matter of which cliches you personally like/dislike, and that's why I can never take these arguments seriously.

When I was watching one of Brandon's lectures, I think I recall he mentioned something to the effect of most ideas having been done is one way or another, but success lying in their exploration from a different angle. Cliches are a common occurrence in fantasy literature, but even they can be explored in a refreshing and original manner.