[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[mariapapadia]

20 hours ago, Hischier said:

This is an interesting topic in itself. Kaladin is my favorite character by far in the series. Kaladin has a lot of admirable traits that I respect, but I think his character growth and his flaws are what make him a very interesting character.  Adolin, on the other hand, is a more likable person and also a good character, but my interest in his arc is mostly plot driven. Basically I like Kaladin better as a character but I'd rather be friends with Adolin. 

That's probably part of why I like Shaladin but it also has to do with how Shallan and Kaladin interact. Their interaction brought out parts of each other that I think made each of them more likable characters (as an aside, the scene with them throwing insults at each other in a crowded hallway like 12 year-olds was my favorite comedy scene in the series so far). In Kaladin's case it was pretty obvious: beginning to get over his prejudice against lighteyes (although I think he still has a ways to go there). In Shallan's case, it was one of the few interactions with another character where it didn't feel like she was playing a role. Partly because Kaladin saw through that and called her out on it. I can understand why she does what she does and I actually empathize with it, but it still bugs me when she deals with someone like Dalinar, for example who's exactly the opposite in terms of being completely genuine and honest.  In her more recent interactions with Adolin, it's less that she's playing a role, but she's still hiding herself. I'd rather see Adolin with someone more genuine.  

I agree that Shallan and Kaladin have an interesting chemistry, that when I first read the book, I didn't give too much in, because I was really sure of the Shallan/Adolin pairing until the chasm scene. When I reread the book I let myself see these things that I ignored and it's clear they could have something going on. The seeds are there and it would be really easy to blossom with more focus from the author. 

Also, the reason why a lot of people like Shallan and Adolin, myself included, is because 'they fit', as Kaladin said. Yes, there were some red flags to them, but aside the Kaladin element, at this moment in the story their relationship resembles the most a real depiction of one (let's not all go into dishonesty and other stuff like that). I think a lot or readers find themselves in that, probably from their own experiences because it's nice. When you date in real life you eat together, go to the zoo, talk about passions and other stuff like that, you don't go off fighting chasmfiends with an upcoming storm above your head. But also, a lot of people feel , myself included, that it would be more fun to read about that sort of dramatic/passionate relationship because you are reading a fantasy book afterall. 

Bottom line, right now, I am somewhere in the middle. I actually find things in both relationships that I can relate to from my own experiences, so I think I will wait until I see more drama/action in Adolin/Shallan and more grounded nice moments in Kaladin/Shallan, before I will jump on a ship. Or I will stay on the ground because I get too invested and if my prefered ship drowns I can get really emotional 

Edited September 30, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mariapapadia said:

(let's not all go into dishonesty and other stuff like that)

But why?

Everytime Shalladin is brought up, "But Helaran!" is being shouted, while all that dishonesty stuff, which is a part of Shallans and Adolins relationship, even if they are in denial about it, is being ignored. Just doesn't seem right with me.

I agree that they *fit*, they look like it. But internally, they don't. They are very different. Soldiering vs. being a Scholar. Being witty vs. not understanding the wit. etc. Yes, Kaladin is a soldier, but he is also a scholar in a way. And he understands Shallan's wit. (I just today reread the banter barrage down in the chasm, where they both tried to top each other.)

That are the many things, where I think, that Kaladin and Shallan fit much better. But I am sure, that it is not convincing for many here, as many of the Shadolin arguments are not convincing for me.

[mariapapadia]

4 hours ago, Elena said:

 

@mariapapadia PLEASE tell me you meant 'fra i due litiganti, il terzo gode'

Haha  close, I'm actually Romanian, but latin languages tend to have a lot of similarities. 

Great post by the way! I relate to a lot of the feelings you have, especially Adolin being victimized. I liked him a lot from the start and never read him as a victim, but my perception about him has changed a bit since I came on the forum and sometimes I just want to skip the debates about him. That being said, I would love for him to remain an important character in the books and grow. 

And 1000 YES to keep the shipping topics off the main thread. And other polarizing topics  let's make the main thread great again (sorry for the naughty joke, but I couldn't help it. I hope I won't get crucified for it ) 

[+eveorjoy]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And yet, many give the impression, they would rather use Kaladin as a prop for Shallan falling in love with Adolin. It is bound to elicit some reaction from the us on the other side.

When I wrote the original post it was to Shadolin shippers showing they need not fear the idea of Kaladin and Shallan together. So the post might have had a bit of a Shadolin lens when looking at the three characters in romantic relationships. 

That does not mean Kaladin is just a prop for those of us who prefer Adolin and Shallan together. The preference is like flavors of ice cream. Saying I prefer chocolate to strawberry ice cream does not mean that I hate strawberries in general. 

SA is not a romance. Kaladin is not defined as a character by whether or not he ends up with Shallan. He is only now getting to a place where he could think of courting someone. Kaladin is fantastic no matter who he ends up with. 

I was giving the Shadolin shippers a way for Shalladin to exist and still have the story end up with their favorite pairing. 

But just so you Shalladin shippers feel represented, here is your happy ending. 

Adolin gets exiled. Kaladin courts Shallan but Shallan learns that he killed Heleran and breaks up with him. They both learn from the experience. Adolin returns as a KR. He and Shallan get together again. At same time she forgives Kaladin and they become good friends. Adolin goes on a mission with Kaladin and both are assumed lost. Shallan is heart broken to think she lost both of them. Then Kaladin returns with Adolin's body. They mourn this great loss together, but Shallan is glad that Kaladin survived. In their grief over Adolin they find love. They get married and have ten babies. And then somewhere along the way they solve that desolation problem. 

There, a scenario with a Shalladin happy ending. Okay. That's all from me. I'll let Brandon take it from here.

[mariapapadia]

37 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But why?

Everytime Shalladin is brought up, "But Helaran!" is being shouted, while all that dishonesty stuff, which is a part of Shallans and Adolins relationship, even if they are in denial about it, is being ignored. Just doesn't seem right with me.

I agree that they *fit*, they look like it. But internally, they don't. They are very different. Soldiering vs. being a Scholar. Being witty vs. not understanding the wit. etc. Yes, Kaladin is a soldier, but he is also a scholar in a way. And he understands Shallan's wit. (I just today reread the banter barrage down in the chasm, where they both tried to top each other.)

That are the many things, where I think, that Kaladin and Shallan fit much better. But I am sure, that it is not convincing for many here, as many of the Shadolin arguments are not convincing for me.

Because at this point both ships have things that could go wrong. Dishonesty by ommision of "I killed my parents"/"I killed Sadeas" vs dishonesty by "not wanting to feel Shallan's rage when she finds out I killed her brother". Also, you can't really deny that dealing with the death of Helaran won't be a walk in the park. I don't think it will kill the relationship before it starts, but it's a milestone that will have to be adressed . Depending on how Brandon chooses to do that, they could overcome it or not. 

I said this on the main thread also, I don't like reducing people/ characters to tropes. Both Kaladin and Adolin are much more than just soldiers, I don't feel like I have to go into an essay to show that and I also think @maxal did a pretty good job of depicting Adolin's special side that not everyone sees. 

"Give Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar", Shadolin (or whatever the shipping name is) could develop into a deep, meaningful relationship. I am not saying I am wishing for it( or that I don't ), but it has that potential and I think it's a bit biased to deny that, because you boarded another ship. 

As well as the chasm scene is one of the most powerfull scenes in the book IMO( maybe one of my top 3 if I would ever make a top 3) and the people denying that must have read another book or their view was clouded by judgement. 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Shallan, I think she needs to realize she can be loved. She needs to realize to value herself and to let other people care for her, take care of her. Adolin could help grow her self-esteem in thinking she deserves to be loved. He could help her see how her father, he did not love her. Love and care do not equate imprisoning. You do not jail someone you love, but you will want to keep them safe and wanting for a love one to be safe isn't the same as locking in a cage. He could help her learn how to trust people, not just when nothing is at stakes, but because she just trusts them.

So Adolin can give Shallan love. Which is the basis on which every romantic relationship is founded on. I'm sorry, but I just think that this doesn't make a very compelling argument.

Kaladin (or any other love interest for that matter) could make her feel the same way. Being loved.

And character growth? Well, if Shallan and Kaladin can help themselves grow as characters as platonic friends, then Adolin and Shallan can do the same. They don't have to become a couple for that.

I am willing to concede, that both Shadolin and Shalladin are possible, meaningful relationships, but if someone tells me, that Shalladin can't happen, because of that Helaran thing, then I will keep telling them, that I can't see Adolin marrying a patricide and matricide. It's just that constant smiting down of a possbile Shalladin relationship (or twisting it in a way to abuse it so it strengthens the Shadolin relationship) puts me on edge and in a defensive position.

Just as every Adolin fan seemingly has to keep victimizing him or herself, eventhough most of us don't even see Adolin as a bad guy.

Edited September 30, 2017 by SLNC

[mariapapadia]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

So Adolin can give Shallan love. Which is the basis on which every romantic relationship is founded on. I'm sorry, but I just think that his doesn't make a very compelling argument.

Kaladin (or any other love interest for that matter) could make her feel the same way. Being loved.

And character growth? Well, if Shallan and Kaladin can help themselves grow as characters as platonic friends, then Adolin and Shallan can do the same. They don't have to become a couple for that.

I am willing to concede, that both Shadolin and Shalladin are possible, meaningful relationships, but if someone tells me, that Shalladin can't happen, because of that Helaran thing, then I will keep telling them, that I can't see Adolin marrying a patricide and matricide. It's just that constant smiting down of a possbile Shalladin relationship (or twisting it in a way to abuse it so it strengthens the Shadolin relationship) puts me on edge and in a defensive position.

Just as every Adolin fan seemingly have to keep victimizing themselves, eventhough most of us don't even see Adolin as a bad guy.

I agree that I don't like or support the dissmisal of Shalladin based on reasons that relate to the structure of the story or how the story is being written. The Helaran thing is a valid point from the Shadolin camp, but one that can be overcome. It depends on how Brandon choses to do it. So I am with you on this and the other points you made about Adolin.

 

 

[Elena]

53 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Haha  close, I'm actually Romanian, but latin languages tend to have a lot of similarities. 

That is fabulous I actually love to hear people speaking Romanian (my best friend in high school spoke it at home) even though I don't understand a thing. Yay for very similar sayings!

53 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I liked him a lot from the start and never read him as a victim, but my perception about him has changed a bit since I came on the forum and sometimes I just want to skip the debates about him. That being said, I would love for him to remain an important character in the books and grow. 

Pretty much all of this, really. I love Adolin, he should reimain a major point of view and have cool plots, he's not evil, but he's also not persecuted.

59 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Everytime Shalladin is brought up, "But Helaran!" is being shouted, while all that dishonesty stuff, which is a part of Shallans and Adolins relationship, even if they are in denial about it, is being ignored. Just doesn't seem right with me.

Because it is, and remains, a huge issue. Kaladin killed Shallan's brother. That's not the same thing as Shallan and her parents, which is her own business, or Adolin and Sadeas which is his. When Shallan and Adolin learn about each other's deeds they will reconsider their opinion of each other to some extent. When Shallan learns that Kaladin killed Helaran she will be heartbroken, and take it personally. This is her business, and will shook her to the core beyond just influencing her opinion of Kaladin. I wrote above about how this won't necessarily be a deal-breaker, but it's still huge and very, very painful - and a bigger deal than denial and lack of communication.

It doesn't mean the ship is dead on arrival but. It'll be very messy for a while.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Elena

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Elena said:

That's not the same thing as Shallan and her parents, which is her own business, or Adolin and Sadeas which is his.

I don't see Sadeas as the problem, but the fact, that Shallan murdered her mother (albeit in self-defense) and willingly killed her father (arguably in defense of Balat). Adolin is a family man. He wants to protect his family. Even if Shallan tells him every circumstance how that happened (which I'm not convinced of), he probably will be very shocked and really think about it if he wants to bring a patricide and matricide into his own family. Perhaps he'll even be scared of her.

Of course, that also can be overcome.

Edited September 30, 2017 by SLNC

[mariapapadia]

@Elena haha that's great to hear. It's easier for Romanians to understand other latin languages, than it is for others to understand us. I like to say that Romanian is a latin language, but with a harsher, slavic pronounciation. Right! Back on topic 

Edited September 30, 2017 by mariapapadia

[kari-no-sugata]

On a general note on the Shallan chapters so far, her story arc for the book doesn't seem to have kicked off yet. Dalinar is trying his hand at diplomacy and saving the world. Kaladin is out scouting and fact finding. Shallan so far is more in recovery mode though she is practising her skills at least, but she hasn't really gotten involved with helping Dalinar (though I expect this to change) and the Ghostbloods have been quiet. Adolin is sort-of similar, recovering from his wounds (now done) and while he is officially in charge of a murder investigation the real legwork is being done by others. It might seem somewhat pointless to mention this all in this thread but there's still a lot of plot to go. The plot is also definitely going to intersect with character development (whether romantic or not). Which does lead me to wonder: are we going to end this book with the shipping wars stronger than ever or mostly over? Or maybe a new shipping war? I hope we get something new to discuss at least - waiting for book 4 won't be too much fun if the shipping arguments are mostly unchanged by the end of book 3 (it's already gotten stale).

On a general note on Shallan herself, I've said this before but I see her as someone who is quite flexible and adaptable, and someone who can generally get along with most people. So I don't have any fundamental problem with Shallan ending up with someone other than Adolin, and that includes Kaladin. I would say that Shallan and Adolin's relationship looks likely to be naturally low tension with some good natured banter while so far Shallan and Kaladin have been naturally high tension with some rather spiky banter and I would expect that to continue to some degree. Personally, I think Shallan would prefer a more relaxed relationship but we shall see. I know Brandon likes to add tension but he also allows the characters to be themselves - the highstorm was added to the scene in WoR where Shallan and Adolin have a date at a restaurant to add tension and in the recent chapters here the whole sword wielding and Brightness Radiant certainly added a lot of tension (amongst other things) to a scene that started quite low tension.

 

Now for some speculation on Kaladin's side, just for fun. He's obviously not going to be able to develop a relationship with anyone if he's not even there so one of the important points will be how long will it take Kaladin and Shallan to meet again. I'd guess Kaladin will go to Kholinar sometime soon and open the Oathgate and return to Urithiru, which will in turn allow Elhokar to retake the city. I suspect that'll take us until the end of Part 2. So I'd guess if there's going to be anything going on between Shallan and Kaladin it would start in Part 3. But would they even interact much? They operate in rather different fields after all.

This is where the plot can come in. The summary blurb says that "Nestled in the mountains high above the storms, in the tower city of Urithiru, Shallan Davar investigates the wonders of the ancient stronghold of the Knights Radiant and unearths dark secrets lurking in its depths". It seems logical that that would be more of an academic exercise, so doesn't seem much room for Kaladin there. But on the other hand, what if Shallan knows things she can't discuss with the others (eg due to the Ghostbloods) and is privately investigating as Veil? Maybe she'll run into Kaladin at such a time and persuades him to help her on a regular basis (probably without revealing her identity).

Anybody got any other suggestions? (There's a bit of foreshadowing that Shallan will ask Kaladin to fly her to a nice position to see Urithiru but that would likely be a one time event) The only other thing I can think of is if Adolin is otherwise indisposed and Kaladin is assigned to be a guard for Shallan when they all go visiting other cities.

One way in which the plot could potentially not help Kaladin is when Jasnah returns to the action and she teams up with Shallan again with regards to solving academic problems. Basically, if Jasnah is around then I expect Shallan would have less free time. No guarantee this would happen in this book of course - currently, I don't expect Jasnah to have much of a presence until the end but this might be wrong.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Anybody got any other suggestions? (There's a bit of foreshadowing that Shallan will ask Kaladin to fly her to a nice position to see Urithiru but that would likely be a one time event) The only other thing I can think of is if Adolin is otherwise indisposed and Kaladin is assigned to be a guard for Shallan when they all go visiting other cities.

I could imagine Shallan just asking Kaladin. I don't see the need for secrecy. They don't hate each other after all.

[Elena]

58 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't see Sadeas as the problem, but the fact, that Shallan murdered her mother (albeit in self-defense) and willingly killed her father (arguably in defense of Balat). Adolin is a family man. He wants to protect his family. Even if Shallan tells him every circumstance how that happened (which I'm not convinced of), he probably will be very shocked and really think about it if he wants to bring a patricide and matricide into his own family. Perhaps he'll even be scared of her.

Of course, that also can be overcome.

I don't think it's going to be as overt as that. I definitely see Shallan killing hsr parents as something Adolin will be upset by, but I don't think it will be on a conscious level - he'll probably tell her he's sorry that happened to her, and they'll go on with their lives thinking it's solved. Then he'll start feeling uneasy about it, and Shallan may notice his changed attitude. I expect something similar will happen when (if?) Shallan finds out about Sadeas; she'll be fine on the surface, but feel annoyed that he didn't tell her sooner.

 

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

I like Adolin. He's a good character. If he were to die that would suck. But for a good chunk of the more casual readers, killing Kaladin would be a betrayal of the unspoken contract between the author and reader. It could be done, but it would have to be handled amazingly well. 

Thank you for saying. How did we progress to have readers think there are readers who are arguing Kaladin ought to die to make room for Adolin?  For YEARS, I had to read posts over posts on how ADOLIN had to die or either turn evil just so Shallan could realize how much of a despicable individual he is (you know he murdered Sadeas) and turn to fall right into Kaladin's arms?

HOW MANY TIMES? This is baffling. The worst reviews Kaladin's character ever got were a few people arguing his arc was too depressive combined with some wanting the heavy focus he was getting to be a bit lesser within future books. Now shall we review the negative reviews Adolin's character has gotten? Do I dare even going there?

Push people for your ship, but push fairly. Trying to picture Kaladin as the victim, the underdog, the unpopular ship or the character needing love is just plain wrong because it is so far from the truth it isn't even an argument. This ship is unpopular with me, but I hardly am the authority on the matter nor am I the only posters to have had comments within those threads.

5 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

I think it is funny how these forums have changed. Their was a lot of Adolin hate on the forums before WoR. I think when Adolin did the exact opposite of what Amaram did and allowed Kaladin to give away his shards, many who once disliked Adolin loved him. He had helped Kaladin heal just a little and allowed Kaladin to start to have a friend who was an equal. This is where a lot of the Kaladolin shipping came from as well. So we began to realize he was the great guy the Adolin fans had yelled he was for years. The Adolin haters melted away, but the Adolin defenders, hardened by years of having to defend their guy stayed as loud as ever. I see why new posters might assume the majority here are pro-Adolin and anti-Kal. I know this is not the case, but I understand the misconception.

I do not know what happened either. Each time I go on Reddit, I get the same crap I used to get on the 17th Shard a few years ago. Endless theories and people rooting for Adolin to die, to turn evil, to become Odium's Champion, to vanish into insignificance... Or reading so many readers being so set against the idea of him becoming, eventually, a Radiant because "there are too many Kholins Radiants", while not minding Elhokar because of those cursed sprens he saw in the mirror.

I swear the fandom is not anti-Kaladin and pro-Adolin: I hardly spend a day without having to defend Adolin somewhere on the fandom. Defending his character against people who still insists he is a young Blackthorn or a spurn of evil or just too boring for Shallan. 

As I said before, the reason not many readers jump in to defend Kaladin is because his character doesn't need defending nor promoting nor anything. He isn't going to die anytime soon, he will get the best story arc with the most interesting climaxes. Adolin? We never know if the guy will survive the next book. So many readers keep on saying how expendable he is, how he is the perfect character to kill because readers like him, so it would create drama for everyone, readers and characters alike.

4 hours ago, Elena said:

...

You are getting such the wrong idea about the fandom... I recommend you read our old threats about shipping: you will see the supporters for Kaladin/Shallan have always been more numerous. This ship has always gotten the most attention. What changed, probably, was Brandon, for the last years, completely discouraging the Adolin fans by NEVER addressing his character within his SA updates, by saying how "less interesting than Renarin" he thought he was, by announcing he was cutting down Adolin's story arc and limiting this viewpoints to Part 4 only (what happened to that, I have no idea). Mind, it seemed something happen or the fans misunderstood Brandon or I honestly do not know because there hasn't been any reasons to complain about "Adolin's presence" within OB so far, but for the last years, rooting for Adolin was rooting for a great big nothing. It was rooting for a lost cause. I got into OB thinking it was over: Adolin would dwindle into nothingness and after the book was done, there wouldn't be any reasons to further discuss him. I thought it was an ending for those having spent years wanting an Adolin centrist story arc.

This is why, I think, the Adolin fans started to become more aggressive. It was in a reaction towards their favorite author seemingly having no firm intentions to further develop his character nor to give him a story arc. 

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

And yet, many give the impression, they would rather use Kaladin as a prop for Shallan falling in love with Adolin. It is bound to elicit some reaction from the us on the other side.

I think the reason why it was brought up is, for some readers, Kaladin doesn't need to be within a relationship with Shallan. If Kaladin gets a romance story arc: it doesn't need to be with Shallan. She isn't "the special one" for him, she is "a girl" he is thinking a lot about and perhaps is starting to have feelings for, but I do not get she is "the only one" nor "unique". If Shallan doesn't return his affection, Kaladin will just move on, find someone else and by happy with this someone else.

On the reverse, the story makes it obvious Shallan is "special" to Adolin, she is "the one girl" among the many he has "one chance" at making it work. If the relationship fails, then Adolin is unlikely to develop another working relationship with another girl because he just can't have them. Shallan is "different", circumstances around him dating Shallan are "different" and as such, he has the possibility of it working, but remove Shallan and Adolin basically has no romance. At best he'd get married of to tie political alliance to a woman he does not completely hate, but this is the best case scenario.

This is why some readers do not put "Kaladin needing love" as high on the list as "Adoin" because Kaladin can get it basically anywhere. Adolin can't. This has been built into his character, not Kaladin.

Edit: I haven't had time to read page 4. I'll be back much later after I have picked those apples.

Edited September 30, 2017 by maxal

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Elena said:

I don't think it's going to be as overt as that. I definitely see Shallan killing hsr parents as something Adolin will be upset by, but I don't think it will be on a conscious level - he'll probably tell her he's sorry that happened to her, and they'll go on with their lives thinking it's solved. Then he'll start feeling uneasy about it, and Shallan may notice his changed attitude. I expect something similar will happen when (if?) Shallan finds out about Sadeas; she'll be fine on the surface, but feel annoyed that he didn't tell her sooner.

That was actually how I meant it. He won't be overt. I agree with you, but his attitude will probably change. I don't know if that will be good in the long run.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

I think the reason why it was brought up is, for some readers, Kaladin doesn't need to be within a relationship with Shallan. If Kaladin gets a romance story arc: it doesn't need to be with Shallan. She isn't "the special one" for him, she is "a girl" he is thinking a lot about and perhaps is starting to have feelings for, but I do not get she is "the only one" nor "unique". If Shallan doesn't return his affection, Kaladin will just move on, find someone else and by happy with this someone else.

On the reverse, the story makes it obvious Shallan is "special" to Adolin, she is "the one girl" among the many he has "one chance" at making it work. If the relationship fails, then Adolin is unlikely to develop another working relationship with another girl because he just can't have them. Shallan is "different", circumstances around him dating Shallan are "different" and as such, he has the possibility of it working, but remove Shallan and Adolin basically has no romance. At best he'd get married of to tie political alliance to a woman he does not completely hate, but this is the best case scenario.

This is why some readers do not put "Kaladin needing love" as high on the list as "Adoin" because Kaladin can get it basically anywhere. Adolin can't. This has been built into his character, not Kaladin.

So that makes it alright to let Kaladin develop feelings for Shallan only to have them devastated so Adolin can have his relationship, that he might have messed up beforehand? Sorry, but that is just messed up.

I'm talking about the possibility of Kaladin and Shallan getting closer. If she immediately tells him, that she isn't interested in him, then I could accept it.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by SLNC

[Toaster Retribution]

The thing with Kaladin seems to be that he isn't really looking for relationships, friendly or not, in the same way that Adolin does. He doesn't want to go drinking with his men, for example. Adolin on the other hand always looks for social situations, for opportunities to talk to and befriend people. But he has problems succeeding with it on a deeper level. 

Having Adolin and Shallan get together would be a huge step for Adolins character, and a way for him to deal with his relationship-problems. For Kaladin it would be just another cool thing happening. I honestly think that not getting Shallan would move Kaladin in more interesting directions than getting her would. 

And for those who say that Kaladin needs Shallan to get over his light-eyes hate, well, we already have Adolin, Dalinar, Elhokar, Amaram and Roshone for that part of his character. He can resolve that with them. There is no need of Shallan there.

[Elena]

16 minutes ago, maxal said:

You are getting such the wrong idea about the fandom... I recommend you read our old threats about shipping: you will see the supporters for Kaladin/Shallan have always been more numerous. This ship has always gotten the most attention.

I'm sorry for being so nitpicky bit actually... I'm pretty sure most people will agree with me that the fandom was never particularly pro-Shalladin (it's even in the first post and nobody else felt the need to disagree with it so far). I signed up immdiately after WOR came out, and everything I said comes from threads I have read and not impressions I formed later. That's not even counting the boards at Tor and  reddit, or the fact that just yesterday people felt the need to put the possibility of this relationship among the things that should never happen in OB. It's always been pretty close between people who actually 'shipped' each, but the amount of people who felt the need to go out of their way to repeat how awful love triangles are is really pretty big, and very vocal.

Again, sorry to nitpick but this is exactly what I meant when I said that a sizeable portion of Adolin fans/Shadolin shippers feels the need to support the narrative that Adolin/Shadolin is an unpopular character/ship and doesn't have many fans. That's not the case.

 

[Starla]

Another factor in all this is that Kaladin will have several flashback episodes to the Tarah situation. Brandon did a reading a few months ago, describing what happened between them. I think she could potentially appear in this book in the present. I’ve been halfway expecting her to show up in the part 1 chapters.

[Aleksiel]

19 minutes ago, Starla said:

Another factor in all this is that Kaladin will have several flashback episodes to the Tarah situation. Brandon did a reading a few months ago, describing what happened between them. I think she could potentially appear in this book in the present. I’ve been halfway expecting her to show up in the part 1 chapters.

 What did Brandon say happened between Kaladin and Tarah? 

[Starla]

26 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

 What did Brandon say happened between Kaladin and Tarah? 

I'll put it in a spoiler tag in case someone doesn't want to know:

Spoiler

She is the daughter of one of Amaram's quartermasters.  They met after Tien died and were in a relationship for a while. She got a job as a scribe for Sadeas. Kaladin didn't want her to leave. He briefly considered getting a job in Sadeas personal guard to go with her, but decided against it (wouldn't that have been ironic). He wanted to stay in the army to help the young soldiers who were too young to fight. She says something like "you need to let the dead go and attend to the living." They parted ways and Kaladin was sad.

I am guessing she still works at Sadeas' estate in his princedom. Kaladin is currently traveling around that area so he could potentially come upon her. 

Edited to add the link to the reading. It starts about 3 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlDHUCemF9U

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Starla

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, Starla said:

I'll put it in a spoiler tag in case someone doesn't want to know:

  Reveal hidden contents

She is the daughter of one of Amaram's quartermasters.  They met after Tien died and were in a relationship for a while. She got a job as a scribe for Sadeas. Kaladin didn't want her to leave. He briefly considered getting a job in Sadeas personal guard to go with her, but decided against it (wouldn't that have been ironic). He wanted to stay in the army to help the young soldiers who were too young to fight. She says something like "you need to let the dead go and attend to the living." They parted ways and Kaladin was sad.

I am guessing she still works at Sadeas' estate in his princedom. Kaladin is currently traveling around that area so he could potentially come upon her. 

 

Thanks! It would be awesome if they met again, I've been dying to know more about her. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Starla said:

I'll put it in a spoiler tag in case someone doesn't want to know:

  Reveal hidden contents

She is the daughter of one of Amaram's quartermasters.  They met after Tien died and were in a relationship for a while. She got a job as a scribe for Sadeas. Kaladin didn't want her to leave. He briefly considered getting a job in Sadeas personal guard to go with her, but decided against it (wouldn't that have been ironic). He wanted to stay in the army to help the young soldiers who were too young to fight. She says something like "you need to let the dead go and attend to the living." They parted ways and Kaladin was sad.

I am guessing she still works at Sadeas' estate in his princedom. Kaladin is currently traveling around that area so he could potentially come upon her. 

 

What an interesting turn of events that would be...

Thanks for paraphrasing that.

[geralt]

I'm not really big into these shipping discussions (mostly because I dislike how people become so invested in it that lead to senseless arguments) so I'm mostly going to stir away from that, but the thing about Kaladin being an unpopular character is far from the truth. If anything, I'd say it's the opposite considering there's like a ton of fan art on him, he's always on top of polls and stuff like that and now even a soundtrack on his character is being made. 

I think the fact that a lot of people dislike a potential relationship between Shallan and Kaladin is unrelated to their personal feelings towards his character, especially considering I've seen many who consider themselves "Kaladin fans" being opposed to such a turn in the story.

Personally, I really enjoyed the chasm scene and I would love to see more interactions between Kaladin and Shallan so I guess I'd like to see that being explored more in the future, but in case that doesn't happen I sure wouldn't mind. The thing I find really amusing (and maybe a bit sad) is that to some, in case their ship doesn't end up  sailing, it becomes a tragedy. I find that really weird because you'd think that if a character must rely on being in a relationship for him/her to be developed as it's often implied, then that isn't exactly good writing and I hope we can all agree on the fact that Brandon has proved time and time again to be a fantastic writer.

Edited September 30, 2017 by geralt

[maxal]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

So that makes it alright to let Kaladin develop feelings for Shallan only to have them devastated so Adolin can have his relationship, that he might have messed up beforehand? Sorry, but that is just messed up.

I'm talking about the possibility of Kaladin and Shallan getting closer. If she immediately tells him, that she isn't interested in him, then I could accept it.

Devastating? Aren't you extrapolating a bit much with this ? Kaladin doesn't have a relationship with Shallan neither is he in love with her. He merely thinks of her and has a mild curiosity towards her. That's it. Shall she not return his affection, he will not be devastated. Devastated is what Adolin will be if Shallan dumps him for Kaladin. 

Therefore, as long as Shallan and Kaladin do not have a working relationship based on romance, something at least equivalent to what Adolin and Shallan currently have, I will not consider it devastating nor traumatizing to either of them shall it not work. At this point in time within the story, the only individual in danger of getting hurt, like really hurt, by the "love triangle" is Adolin, not Kaladin. 

To Kaladin, Shallan is A girl. To Adolin, Shallan is THE girl. Big difference.

7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The thing with Kaladin seems to be that he isn't really looking for relationships, friendly or not, in the same way that Adolin does. He doesn't want to go drinking with his men, for example. Adolin on the other hand always looks for social situations, for opportunities to talk to and befriend people. But he has problems succeeding with it on a deeper level. 

Having Adolin and Shallan get together would be a huge step for Adolins character, and a way for him to deal with his relationship-problems. For Kaladin it would be just another cool thing happening. I honestly think that not getting Shallan would move Kaladin in more interesting directions than getting her would. 

And for those who say that Kaladin needs Shallan to get over his light-eyes hate, well, we already have Adolin, Dalinar, Elhokar, Amaram and Roshone for that part of his character. He can resolve that with them. There is no need of Shallan there.

Yes, I agree. Kaladin's character doesn't need to have a romantic relationship, at the moment, and shall he get one it doesn't need to be with Shallan, specifically. Adolin is within a completely different mind frame where he not only wants resolution, but he NEEDS to have it. We can guess, with the Desolation looming, Adolin will not be allowed to remain without a wife for much longer. On the reverse, neither Kaladin nor Shallan actually have to marry to fulfill their obligation to their family. Romance is not something their character needs to be successful in.

One of the points I have often made is without Shallan, Adolin has no romance. There is no "other choice". Bringing in "another choice", into the story does not work because his character is unable to have relationship. His issues won't just magically disappear. Shallan is different, the next random girl won't.

I do not see Kaladin's character as absolutely needing a relationship with Shallan to progress nor to move forward. I agree it is a "nice to have", but this "nice to have" does not require Shallan. It could be with any character Brandon wants to introduce as Kaladin doesn't have Adolin's crippling issues when it comes to relationships nor dating. He has problems, but they aren't related to intimacy nor the ability to develop relationships with girls.

7 hours ago, Elena said:

I'm sorry for being so nitpicky bit actually... I'm pretty sure most people will agree with me that the fandom was never particularly pro-Shalladin (it's even in the first post and nobody else felt the need to disagree with it so far). I signed up immdiately after WOR came out, and everything I said comes from threads I have read and not impressions I formed later. That's not even counting the boards at Tor and  reddit, or the fact that just yesterday people felt the need to put the possibility of this relationship among the things that should never happen in OB. It's always been pretty close between people who actually 'shipped' each, but the amount of people who felt the need to go out of their way to repeat how awful love triangles are is really pretty big, and very vocal.

Again, sorry to nitpick but this is exactly what I meant when I said that a sizeable portion of Adolin fans/Shadolin shippers feels the need to support the narrative that Adolin/Shadolin is an unpopular character/ship and doesn't have many fans. That's not the case.

I am surprised, if you read as many threads as you claim you have read, you would still insist on saying the majority of readers prefer Adolin over Kaladin be it for a relationship with Shallan or in general...

There hasn't been many conversations, on the matter of shipping, during the last 4 years, into which I have not been personally involved. I don't think there is one discussion thread I have not read even from the time prior to my joining. The first place where the Adolin/Shallan ship got what seemed like the most support was Tor.com, during the WoR re-read, this is true. People even commented on it, on how it was odd people on Tor would favor Adolin whereas people everywhere else favored Kaladin. It as an oddity. People were surprised and theories about the demographic were made. These days, I'd say it is pretty even on Tor.com: those last chapters won a lot of people over for the Adolin/Shallan ship, but many are strongly arguing in favor of Kaladin. 

On Reddit, prior to OB's pre-release, the most support has always been towards Kaladin. Reddit has one "Adolin will turn evil or becomes Odium's Champion" post launched basically every week! Recently, there was this large impressive post made in favor of Kaladin and Shallan where Adolin's character was reduced to his most simple expression. 

Up until perhaps a few months ago or maybe a year I can't say for sure, the 17th Shard shipping discussions were filled with pro-Kaladin and myself trying to basically defend the Adolin relationship, often by myself. I did not often get supporters or fellow posters thinking alike: this rarely happened.

I have been involved into all of those discussions, every single one: I never got the complete and total support from a majority of the posters whenever I argued about shipping or even just Adolin's character. It is true, right now, Adolin seems to be getting the most support, but over the course of the last four years, it has been the opposite, in a general manner.

Thus to me, making the argument Kaladin is the lesser loved character just doesn't hold the road. It is so not true. What is true however is the Adolin fans have been very vocal over the years. It is also true Adolin's character has monopolize A LOT of discussion, but it still does not make him more popular: it makes him more often discussed.

As for the scenes people do not want to see, I think many responded a Kaladin/Shallan romance because they don't want a love triangle and it doesn't look like Adolin/Shallan will end soon. I could be wrong though. I answered because I want Adolin to be with Shallan. I can't say about others.

6 hours ago, geralt said:

I'm not really big into these shipping discussions (mostly because I dislike how people become so invested in it that lead to senseless arguments) so I'm mostly going to stir away from that, but the thing about Kaladin being an unpopular character is far from the truth. If anything, I'd say it's the opposite considering there's like a ton of fan art on him, he's always on top of polls and stuff like that and now even a soundtrack on his character is being made. 

The idea Kaladin is an unpopular character baffles me. This is so not true. Has anyone read the negative critics on OB? Has anyone taken the time to browse through every single one of them? What are people actually complaining about?

They are complaining there isn't enough Kaladin. He has had 6 viewpoints (I think it was 6) among 15 viewpoints chapters and there are many readers who think this is not enough. This week, so many readers complained the Kaladin chapter was too short. We got two amazing Shallan chapters I loved immensely and yet some readers complained there "was not enough Kaladin".

Nobody is complaining about the other characters story arcs, even Shallan's who definitely got the short edge, so far. 

6 hours ago, geralt said:

Personally, I really enjoyed the chasm scene and I would love to see more interactions between Kaladin and Shallan so I guess I'd like to see that being explored more in the future, but in case that doesn't happen I sure wouldn't mind. The thing I find really amusing (and maybe a bit sad) is that to some, in case their ship doesn't end up  sailing, it becomes a tragedy. I find that really weird because you'd think that if a character must rely on being in a relationship for him/her to be developed as it's often implied, then that isn't exactly good writing and I hope we can all agree on the fact that Brandon has proved time and time again to be a fantastic writer.

A tragedy? No it is not really a tragedy, a tragedy is a very strong word, but let's just say it may diminish my personal interest within the series. I am currently losing interest within Lightbringer because I dislike most of the current character arcs and the one character I enjoy the best has been put into a situation where he does nothing, can't do nothing. So while the Kaladin/Shallan romance will not, by itself, be a tragedy, for myself as a reader, it may inadvertently put a too strong focus on these two characters, to the detriment of the Kholin family who I find more interesting to read. I don't mind reading Kaladin, I generally like him (though I find his story arc in OB not to be overly interesting, so far), but I prefer reading about Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin, Navani and company.

Thus, it isn't so much the Kaladin/Shallan potential ship I dislike, but the focus it removes from characters I prefer reading. Now, if it does happen, it does not mean whatever else Brandon will write won't be so amazing I'll forget about my initial reticence and totally embark into the new plot. This however has not happened yet and I can only judge a story based on what I think and where I see it going given the various tangential. 

I still haven't read page 4... Getting to it.

Getting to it:

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

But why?

Everytime Shalladin is brought up, "But Helaran!" is being shouted, while all that dishonesty stuff, which is a part of Shallans and Adolins relationship, even if they are in denial

The reason Helaran is shouted so often is because "But Adolin murdered Sadeas" is always shouted more strongly. I agree if Kaladin and Shallan do not work out, it won't be because of Helaran just as I insist if Adolin and Shallan do not work out, it won't be because he murdered their world's greatest villain.

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

So Adolin can give Shallan love. Which is the basis on which every romantic relationship is founded on. I'm sorry, but I just think that this doesn't make a very compelling argument.

Kaladin (or any other love interest for that matter) could make her feel the same way. Being loved.

And character growth? Well, if Shallan and Kaladin can help themselves grow as characters as platonic friends, then Adolin and Shallan can do the same. They don't have to become a couple for that.

I am willing to concede, that both Shadolin and Shalladin are possible, meaningful relationships, but if someone tells me, that Shalladin can't happen, because of that Helaran thing, then I will keep telling them, that I can't see Adolin marrying a patricide and matricide. It's just that constant smiting down of a possbile Shalladin relationship (or twisting it in a way to abuse it so it strengthens the Shadolin relationship) puts me on edge and in a defensive position.

Just as every Adolin fan seemingly has to keep victimizing him or herself, eventhough most of us don't even see Adolin as a bad guy.

Come on... You and I both know Adolin and Shallan will never be friends. She is his Navani: he will always love her. She will always be the one he couldn't get, the only one he wanted to keep. Seeing her with Kaladin, sure Adolin would nice and everything, but he would isolate himself from them, just as Dalinar did with Navani.

Adolin and Shallan as friends just honestly isn't a possibility I see within the narrative. Shallan might be friend with Adolin, but not the reverse.

You are also ignoring something important, Adolin doesn't need Shallan to be his friend, he needs a romantic relationship to work. Remove this from his character and no, he isn't growing nearly as much. He'll always have this thing which is missing, he'll always have those issues.

As for Adolin loving Shallan just as Kaladin could, another come on. Kaladin would never be half as thoughtful nor dedicated to Shallan as Adolin is. It just isn't how he is. What I meant is a man like Adolin, a man who makes you feel special, who loves you so much he gives you everything doesn't come around every street corner. I was thinking Shallan, given her past history, could grow in appreciating what a man like Adolin does for her.

And come on, nobody is victimizing Adolin. What you are seeing is people being tired of other people endlessly arguing Adolin is rotten because he killed Sadeas and everyone else will see him as rotten because of it. Like, no one within the entire series will ever understand, not even the one girl who actually killed her parents. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by maxal