[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[Aleksiel]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

 

All right! 

All aboard the Shallan Ship Express! 

Making stops at Shallabsal, Shadolin, Shalladin, Shallagaz, and Cooooooocamonga!

 

Never stop at a mere love triangle when it could be a dodecahedron 

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

And seriously...Shallagaz??? Blech.

Heheh. I was imagining her losing Adolin (possibly due to some kind of "Sadeas Blowback Effect"), turning to Kaladin for comfort, having a bad breakup, and then starting a bounceback relationship with the person Kaladin would hate the most to see around her.

Also I've been impatient to see more Gaz/Kaladin sparks. I mean, he is already Shallan's bodyguard and errand boy so he must be around all the time, yet we haven't seen Gaz cross paths with anyone from Bridge Four (much less the Lordling Radiant) since they arrived on the Shattered Plains. So if there is coffee that's been brewing for a long time, why not extra bitter?

 

[+eveorjoy]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Heheh. I was imagining her losing Adolin (possibly due to some kind of "Sadeas Blowback Effect"), turning to Kaladin for comfort, having a bad breakup, and then starting a bounceback relationship with the person Kaladin would hate the most to see around her.

Also I've been impatient to see more Gaz/Kaladin sparks. I mean, he is already Shallan's bodyguard and errand boy so he must be around all the time, yet we haven't seen Gaz cross paths with anyone from Bridge Four (much less the Lordling Radiant) since they arrived on the Shattered Plains. So if there is coffee that's been brewing for a long time, why not extra bitter?

 

I don't think Kaladin cares so much about Gaz anymore. He doesn't think about as much as he does other people. He doesn't like him, but he is more indifferent to him at this point. I think deep down Kaladin knows Gaz is the way he is because of the pressures that were placed on him.

Now Shallmaram that would cause a storm in Kaladin.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Shallmaram 

The names are getting a bit out of control.

[maxal]

7 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

...

Great reminder kari. It is good for our new posters to see some of the historic and to challenge a few preconceive ideas: Adolin is not the most popular character. He is a popular character a lot of readers like to read, but he is very few readers favorite. The Kaladin/Shallan relationship has always gotten a lot of support.

6 hours ago, Alderant said:

Hehe I got quoted by Maxal! To go along with your point, I don't mean that Adolin is an enraged madman. Far from it, and don't get me wrong, I love Adolin as a character, and especially your analysis(es) of him. He's hotheaded, yes, but he's kind and has a good head on his shoulders. But it doesn't change the fact that, regardless of how far he was provoked, in a fit of rage he snapped and murdered someone. It even says in WoR that he snapped, and he told Sadeas right before plunging the dagger into his eye that he (Adolin) was not a good man. Not only that, but after stabbing Sadeas he proceeded to scrape the blade around Sadeas's skull. Shallan has already drawn a parallel between Adolin and her father subconsciously once--when Adolin told her following the battle that he would protect her and never let any harm come to her. It was that overprotective behavior of her father that ultimately drove the events of her childhood leading to his death, and when Shallan learns that Adolin has murdered someone in anger, she will inevitably draw the parallel to her father as well and I truly believe that will drive them apart. Perhaps, eventually they'll come back together, eventually she might grow to peace with it, but we'll have to wait and see.

I agree that I think Shallan will understand the necessity, but the idea that she will just be there for him and understand just doesn't sit well with me. I feel the same way about Shallan that you do about Adolin, and out of all the SA characters, she's the one I most identify with. She is hurting, she is scarred, and Adolin's actions are way too similar to her father's for her to just be okay with it. She saw her father turn from a kind, loving man who would sing her to sleep and protect her to a monster, and it was her fault, and seeing Adolin go down the same path is going to terrify her. As I stated earlier, I think one of the reasons she holds so tightly to Adolin is because her relationship is a piece of normalcy in a world that is rapidly collapsing around her, it's a little glimmer of happiness and what her life could have been, and she desperately doesn't want to lose that. It also doesn't help that he's super attractive to her, but where will their relationship be in ten years? Five? If Adolin is capable of killing someone in anger, will he eventually turn his anger on her, as her father did with her stepmother? Will Adolin beat their children when he gets angry? These are serious questions that will be raised when she finds out.

Sure you were, I didn't know I was famous. 

For the rest, I do not agree on Shallan thinking Adolin murdering Sadeas makes him similar to her father. Sadeas has single-handily caused the death of 6000 of Adolin's soldiers. He has professed threats against both Dalinar and Elhokar: he admitted to Adolin he will kill not only his father, but also the king, all of this within a three months time frame. He did plan an assassination attempt which nearly killed both Dalinar and Shallan. As he finally makes his way to Urithiru he reinforces his position by claiming he will never stop trying to harm Adolin's family and princedom until he succeeds and is made king. He states there is ABSOLUTELY nothing Adolin can do to prevent him from putting his plan into execution.

Adolin didn't murder some little rainbow shooting angel: he murdered a despot, a tyrant, a mass murderer and a traitor to his kingdom. Yes, after Sadeas finished telling Adolin all of the ignominious things he will do to his family, Adolin snaps. Yes, he is angered, but it is the rightful anger one feels when everything and everyone he loves is threatened by someone having not only the means, but the intentions and the capacity to ruin them. 

Therefore, Adolin murdering Sadeas bears absolutely no link whatsoever to Shallan's father behavior: it is more akin to Shallan murdering her father which she too did to protect her family. Just because Shallan is unable to feel anger, in a general manner, does not mean the fact Adolin felt it he is the lesser human being.

I also seriously criticize the idea Shallan would be simple-minded enough to think Adolin murdering Sadeas precludes him harming her or their children. Why would she even think this? Is Shallan going to start thinking every single human being feeling anger, once in a while, is akin to her father? Then what is she going to think of Kaladin who is an angry person in a general manner? How is she not able to put things into perspective and to understand just how evil Sadeas was?

People put way too much importance over the fact Adolin was angry, stating just because he killed someone, once, out of anger, he will explode and kill more people. This isn't how it works: Adolin's anger demanded intense provocation to happen and is unlikely to happen again unless another Sadeas manifests himself. Thus, I think it isn't doing Shallan a great service to think she will start seeing Adolin as an evil murderous person. I mean, the entire rational behind Shallarin demands Shallan to be able to both understand and forgive Kaladin for killing Helaran, then how is she not able to understand why Adolin killed Sadeas? This never add up in my mind: either she can rationalize it or she can't and it is easy to say which individual she thinks did not deserve to die, no matter the circumstances.

7 hours ago, Alderant said:

The big difference here is you are attaching the cold logic of Shallan's situation to Adolin's situation. Shallan killed her father yes. She did it because there was no other option. She tried to kill him with poison, to send him off semi-peacefully, but knew when he started waking that he would likely kill everyone there, and there was no possible way they could have escaped, so she killed him--strangled him--to protect everyone else that she loved. Adolin's situation was not this way. It was not meditated, it was not thought out. Sadeas taunted him and told him of his plans. Adolin could have left, he could have stormed off and told his father. Unlike Shallan's situation, Adolin had a way to retreat without killing. That's not what happened. He got angry, he got emotional and he snapped, and he murdered Sadeas. I'm not saying that he wasn't pushed to a breaking point--he most definitely was, but Adolin did not analyze the situation and decide that killing Sadeas would solve the problems, he killed Sadeas because he was angry, and because he hated Sadeas.

Adolin has no option besides going to his father, tell him what he has heard and watch his father still try to turn Sadeas into an ally. Dalinar refusing to deal with Sadeas has been the knot of the issue, his reluctance to do something about his old friend, his thoughts unity means everyone needs to be united even those not wanting it or threatening it. There is also the fact Adolin knows, politically, there isn't much they can do. They cannot oppose Sadeas without launching a civil war which is currently ill-advised. 

There is nothing Adolin can do which will lead any tangible results, there is nothing he can do which will solve the problem but killing him. 

I also disagree he killed Sadeas because he hated him. Adolin can hate people: he won't kill them for it. He killed him because he promised he would harm his family and his knew these weren't empty promises.

7 hours ago, Hischier said:

. I'd rather see Adolin with someone more genuine.  

This has been the argument Kaladin/Shallan shippers have used in the past: Adolin can always form a relationship with another currently non-existing nameless girl. My issues with it is it doesn't work with the narrative and the character we have gotten so far. Adolin has dated every single young women in Alethkar and he has ruined every single one of those relationship, until Shallan. Why is it working with Shallan is both simple and complex, but let's say it is unlikely to repeat itself with another random nameless girl just so Shallan would be free for Kaladin. 

Therefore, the idea Adolin could make it work with another yet to be introduced, probably very minor, character isn't doing his character good service. Adolin has crippling issues with relationships: if it fails with Shallan, then she becomes his Navani. He won't succeed with another girl just because.

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

I never understood this argument. Adolin is pretty much still the same as always, as is Shallan. And where did they ever work together?

They work pretty well in OB. In Wor, they were just starting to date.

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

I'm still more or less convinced, that he just was oblivious to the fact, that he unconsciously sabotaged his other relationships, because he wasn't keeping track of them - indicating a lack of interest. Shallan is the first woman, who truly interests him. It could have been any woman, his betterment in this instance wasn't exactly because of Shallan telling him something or so. It was just because, she intrigues him.

This is not why Adolin screws up: he screws up because he can't open up to other people, he can't let others see his inner side because they may see he isn't as strong as he pretends to be. Shallan is the only one who got a glimpse at the inner him and by doing so, she got to him.

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Wait a minute. I know that Adolin is trying to make it work with Shallan, but I don't see how it makes him a better person.

It makes him a better person because this relationship has the potential to become the only one where he truly is himself, where he lets someone see him, the real him, the him even his family isn't seeing. Becoming a better person, for Adolin, means admitting he cannot always be strong, he cannot always be perfect. It is admitting he too needs someone to lean onto, from times to times. It is finally growing into accepting it is OK to make mistakes and the faith of his family doesn't pass solely by him.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, maxal said:

It makes him a better person because this relationship has the potential to become the only one where he truly is himself, where he lets someone see him, the real him, the him even his family isn't seeing. Becoming a better person, for Adolin, means admitting he cannot always be strong, he cannot always be perfect. It is admitting he too needs someone to lean onto, from times to times. It is finally growing into accepting it is OK to make mistakes and the faith of his family doesn't pass solely by him.

I get this, but I still fail to see how that makes him a better person, if he can only be himself around Shallan. How would that shape his character in the presence of others? And I'm still not completely convinced, that Shallan is the best person for this.

What do you think would make Shallan a better person? What can Adolin give her? 

Edited September 29, 2017 by SLNC

[maxal]

40 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I get this, but I still fail to see how that makes him a better person, if he can only be himself around Shallan. How would that shape his character in the presence of others? And I'm still not completely convinced, that Shallan is the best person for this.

What do you think would make Shallan a better person? What can Adolin give her? 

Well, this is a valid question. I would say managing to open up with someone could help him open up with others, most notably his father, his brother and his aunt. Sometimes, people need a hand, a bit of help and I do thing Adolin's character progression passes through him admitting he has those weaknesses. He isn't perfect and it is OK not to be. Arguably things will need to happen for him to admit it. Arguably a relationship with Shallan is not the only way for this to happen, but it is a way into which I think he could grow up. Also, succeeding with one relationship just by itself would be a massive step forward for Adolin. 

As for Shallan, I think she needs to realize she can be loved. She needs to realize to value herself and to let other people care for her, take care of her. Adolin could help grow her self-esteem in thinking she deserves to be loved. He could help her see how her father, he did not love her. Love and care do not equate imprisoning. You do not jail someone you love, but you will want to keep them safe and wanting for a love one to be safe isn't the same as locking in a cage. He could help her learn how to trust people, not just when nothing is at stakes, but because she just trusts them.

I see a lot of growth these two characters could have one next to the other. Shallan can help Adolin expand his intellect, strengthen his thinking methods and embrace the fact he isn't an idiot. Have him stop acting as if he did not understand what others are saying, have confidence in his own thinking capacities. Adolin can help Shallan get the knowledge she is very self-conscious she did not get growing up, stuff such as politics and general knowledge with respect to management and foreign nations.

They also are two artistic people with a strong passion for their respective craft.

Obviously, a relationship with each other is not the ONLY way those characters could get the growth I have just suggested. I would however argue Shallan does seem as the only opportunity Adolin will get to develop a relationship with someone he both wants and is happy in it. If it fails, giving the new stakes, we can bet Dalinar and Navani will marry him off to strengthen political ties with foreign nations. I know Dalinar said he wouldn't, but circumstances have changed. 

[King Cole]

Forget Shalladin or Shadolin, go Kadolin 

[Starla]

21 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

@Starla I am with you. Kaladin is not only my favorite SA character, he is my favorite fictional character not written in one of my stories. I am a big Kaladin fan girl. It surprises me how, even though this is Dalinar's book, Kaladin's parts are still my favorites. This was true of WoR as well. It was Shallan's book and I love the girl, but Kaladin is the one I enjoyed reading about the most. 

Nice to meet a fellow fangirl and writer. Kaladin reminds me of one of my own characters, so I think that gives me a soft spot in my heart for him.

Regarding your discussion of the Helaran situation, I don’t think it is guaranteed to cause huge issues between Shallan and Kaladin. My main concern is that Shallan will learn that Helaran was up to no good, and the truth of that realization will shatter her illusion of him. She has put him on a pedestal as the only member of her family who was not broken by their father. Growing up, he was like a knight in shining armor to her and symbolized her hope of escape. If she learns he was less than honorable, it could be a big blow for her. I hope she learns Kaladin’s part of it directly from him, though some of it could come from the Ghostbloods. We don’t know all of what Helaran was up to, but at the very least he slaughtered soldiers who did not attack him, including injured men lying on the field with the medical flag raised. That’s not a good view of Helaran and I doubt Shallan will take it well. If she trusts Kaladin’s story, I believe she will be discerning enough to know that Helaran’s actions are not Kaladin’s fault and she’ll understand why he did what he did. She killed her own father for similar reasons, to protect people she loves.

 

8 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Who is your favourite character: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/18912-who-is-your-favourite-character-in-sa/

Thanks for posting these survey results. I remember seeing it a while back and being surprised by the results. When I first joined the forum I read through all 150+ pages of Stormlight posts, along with all of the WOK and WOR reread posts and comments on Tor.com (crazy I know, it took months). My overall impression was that a lot of people didn’t like Kaladin, especially after WOR. I got the sense that it was mostly due to his ongoing depression, anger, and pessimism which led to him breaking his oaths. Perhaps many of the 81 Kaladin fans in the survey are less vocal than fans of the other characters, but I am happy to see a few here on this thread. 

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

The names are getting a bit out of control.

At least with Sadeas dead, we don’t have to worry about Shadeas being thrown around. Though Shabariel is still in the mix. 

[Dahak]

Quote

Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

I agree, I suspect Kaladin would do Shallash no end of good. She's apparently been thinking about becoming one of the Knight's Radient and he could probably break her out of her self destructive cycle and reignite the champion of humanity she used to be. She also has the advantage of not being in love with and engaged to one of his closest friends. And she's presumably got enough experience to help him in return.

Shallan less so. Especially since having accepted that he and Laral aren't a thing and surrendering, he's more likely to be spending time with Liss (They are heading for Kholinar) or Eshonai (he's been captured by "voidbringers") in the near future than Shallan.

That leaves out the occasionally mentioned buit undescribed Tara he appears to have had feelings for.

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Starla said:

My overall impression was that a lot of people didn’t like Kaladin, especially after WOR.

People love Kaladin, but we have to understand Kaladin has A LOT of page time and viewpoints. We also know he will get A LOT of page time and viewpoints within each books of the first arc of SA. No matter what happens within the story, Kaladin is guaranteed to have a large, detailed, introspective and deep story arc.

As such, people do not have the same incentive to defend "Kaladin's place within the story" as they do for characters such as Adolin. People know not having a relationship with Shallan will not impacted Kaladin's presence within the story, but remove his relationship with Shallan and Adolin is a much less present character. 

It may be why those who love Kaladin the most are less vocal: they have little to complain about. They can just enjoy whatever Brandon will write as they know it will be awesome. Preferring Adolin has been a roller-coasters of emotions: I never know what to expect and if he has a good presence within OB so far, there is no guarantee he won't vanish after part 1. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

As such, people do not have the same incentive to defend "Kaladin's place within the story" as they do for characters such as Adolin. People know not having a relationship with Shallan will not impacted Kaladin's presence within the story, but remove his relationship with Shallan and Adolin is a much less present character. 

Wait. So the main reason you are vehemently defending Adolin and Shallan is because you're afraid Adolin's significance would dwindle? Or am I misunderstanding something?

[kari-no-sugata]

With regards to how Shallan will react when she finds out that Adolin killed Sadeas, I remember having some discussions on this earlier in the year.

I think it's important to split it into two parts - the initial reaction and the long term effects. While Shallan likes (I would say loves) Adolin, there are some aspects to him she hasn't seen yet. I think there's little doubt that she will be shocked when she finds out - it's not something she would have expected. With the gap between the murder and her finding out increasing, that might make it even more surprising to her - that she hadn't noticed all this time. I would not be surprised if she even feels some form of revulsion initially because of this.

However, when she finds out I doubt Shallan would immediately know all the details. The exact circumstances would likely be a mystery (which tends to make things worse). Also, once she gets over the initial shock she would be able to think back about Adolin and Sadeas - remember that he confessed the details of the betrayal at the end of tWoK to Shallan early on in their relationship. Shallan even came up with a plan to neutralise Sadeas. It's not like she's unaware that there's bad blood between these two. Shallan hasn't shown remorse at Sadeas's death and probably agrees with Palona. Even so, Shallan will be forced to re-evaluate Adolin and the circumstances could be quite complex.

I think the more she finds out the more she'll realise that she and Adolin are even more alike than she had previously thought. I don't know how long this will take to come out though and she might find it difficult to trust Adolin's side of the story initially - it certainly doesn't help that Shallan has been betrayed by people she liked before. In the end I wouldn't be surprised if she or Renarin or even both can somehow prove what really happened using their Radiant abilities. As part of all this I wouldn't be surprised if she reveals some or all of her deeper secrets to Adolin, which would obviously shock him in return but assuming that they can both accept what they did themselves and what the other did then I would expect their relationship to be long lasting.

So, long story short, I expect some sort of "rough patch" in their relationship. How deep and how long I have no real idea but I'm not expecting something extreme. I expect they'll get over it in the end and probably come out stronger.

I do have one idea in which Kaladin could actually help: let's say there's some "moments" between Shallan and Kaladin (most likely in the middle of Shallan and Adolin's "rough patch"), though nothing too significant. Doesn't sound like help but if Shallan is able to compare and contrast her feelings for Kaladin and Adolin it might help her realise that there's a big difference and she actually does love Adolin.

I could be wrong about this all of course. As long as it's interesting, I don't mind being wrong though.

[Harbour]

Oh boy, the OB shipping war has finally began.

It amuses me that Shadolin's supporters usually bring the love triangle issue as an argument against Shalladin while the real barrier for it is the Helaran's incident that was clearly left by Brandon for the dessert. I guess that happens because almost everyone subconsciously feel that the spark between Kaladin and Shallan is much brighter. To begin with the love triangle is only bad when its execution is bad. Im pretty sure Sanderson is talented enough and have enough assistants and beta readers to execute it in an enoyable and maybe even fresh untrivial way.

I know the downsides and upsides of love triangle trope as well as i know the downsides and upsides of "Charming Prince-Book worm girl" tropes. And for me the second trope is much more cringeworthy and mawkish. Im glad Sanderson didnt make Shadolin's shared scenes too sweet and sugary. Otherwise i would hate it. But im not. Shadolin has a  potential. It finally got some sources of future conflict and the conflict usually is the engine of romantic relationships in fantasy books. But in the form it exists now its intentionally artificial relationships.

The same goes to the Helaran's incident. It is the source of conflict. Its good cause that means Shalladin's relationships wont stale. There will be the development, positivie, negative, positive again and so on. Good romance cant exist without the conflict to overcome.

The main reason why i think Shalladin was improved more than Shadolin is that in Shadolin scenes Sanderson deliberately tells us what Shallan and Adolin thinking. He never misses the chance to tell us that Shallan melted looking into Adolin's eyes. Adolin tells us that he loves Shallan.

While in every scene with Shallan and Kaladin, shared or not, Sanderson shows us what they thinking of each other. We dive into Shallans thoughts when she with admiration and delight describes Kaladin's nature. We see her randomly thinking about "brightlord broody eyes" while doing her work. We exactly knows how Kaladin feels and sees Shallan and what he think about her and Adolin. We see these moments when Brandon deliberately shows how unintentionally Shallan hugs Kaladin in the chasm, how she instinctively put her head on his chest, how he hugs her and fully appreciates the warm of her body. Yes there were circumstances Adolin and Shallan never shared. Shadolin also has this kind of unintentional things, but they are much less noticable and didnt strike an eye. Maybe its because im Shalladin supporter, who knows.

But i know that good author tends to show us not to tell. And im pretty sure Sanderson intentionally uses that skill to underline the artificality of Adolin and Shallan's relationships, while underline the genuine and natural affection and glimpse of passion between Kaladin and Shallan.

Btw, i would be glad if Brandon will put Adolin and Shallan in some dangerous situation because that can make them spark.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Harbour

[maxal]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Wait. So the main reason you are vehemently defending Adolin and Shallan is because you're afraid Adolin's significance would dwindle? Or am I misunderstanding something?

 It is one of the many reasons, not the only one 

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I do have one idea in which Kaladin could actually help: let's say there's some "moments" between Shallan and Kaladin (most likely in the middle of Shallan and Adolin's "rough patch"), though nothing too significant. Doesn't sound like help but if Shallan is able to compare and contrast her feelings for Kaladin and Adolin it might help her realise that there's a big difference and she actually does love Adolin.

Great post, as always. I particularly enjoyed this passage. I do agree Shallan having romantic moments with Kaladin might help her evaluate how she feels towards both men. The same is true about Kaladin. It makes me think of the old "I kissed this other woman I thought I had feelings for, but it only served to make me realize I never wanted to kiss any other woman but you" trope, only change "woman" by "man".

[+eveorjoy]

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I do have one idea in which Kaladin could actually help: let's say there's some "moments" between Shallan and Kaladin (most likely in the middle of Shallan and Adolin's "rough patch"), though nothing too significant. Doesn't sound like help but if Shallan is able to compare and contrast her feelings for Kaladin and Adolin it might help her realise that there's a big difference and she actually does love Adolin.

This was my original idea. Kal courts her, they don't work out, Shallan realizes she loved Adolin all along. And then he returns with his revived blad...okay enough of that.

[Elena]

On 09/28/2017 at 10:34 PM, Dreamstorm said:

People on this forum generally like Adolin better than Kaladin (my guess is if there was a poll about who posters would rather have killed off, Kaladin would win easily), so as a love triangle is often posed as some sort of "competition", the general sentiment is that posters (or maybe the most vocal posters) would like to see Adolin "win".  Oddly, I don't get the sense people generally like Shallan much, but winning an undesirable prize is better than losing I guess 

You know, I've had the same exact thought recently. As someone who joined up right after WOR (when everyone still hated the prospect of Shalladin but for 'we want no silly triangles' reasons), then posted/lurked for a bit and went away completely for a year and a half, this shift is really interesting to see. This has definitely been my impression, both on here and on the Tor.com comment section.

That said I don't believe Adolin is more popular, it's just that has a more vehement fanbase. As someone suggested above, it's probably because Adolin fan (of which I am one) were getting tired of the 'Adoin is gonna go eeeeeevil' conspiracy. That said, one thing that really baffles me about the current conception of the character is the sense of... can I say victimism? (sorry can't find a better suited English word!) that I see in a lot of the discussions. The current fandom depiction of Adolin is as a character is of someone who has it bad both in-universe and among the fandom; most readers don't care about him, Brandon doesn't care about him, Dalinar prefers Elhokar to his own son, and so on. A lot of posts reference that, even when it's not related to the discussion going on. And as someone who really likes Adolin... is great that he's getting so much love but, as mentioned, I'm a bit puzzled. People act like he's both a very niche character who only 17 people like, instead of one of the main viewpoints, but also like he should be a main character and anything else is a disservice.

That said, I love reading about Adolin so I'm happy he's getting all this space in discussions. But the tone is a bit odd.

15 hours ago, Hischier said:

Then isn't it better to confine it to it's own section instead of having it clutter the main chapter thread?

This so much. Can we keep this thread around and come back to it every Tuesday? I used to think I had what it takes to be a shipper (I'm on tumblr and everything) but apparently I know nothing.

That said, I agree with @Starlathat the premise of the original post does a disservice to Kaladin's character. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the intention, but saying 'Shalladin is fine because it will make Shadolin better in the long run' throws Kaladin's character development under the bus for the sake of furthering Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Can't we just say 'this tangled romantic situation is good because it's going to lead to character growth for all involved'?

Yes, Shallan is traumatized, but Kaladin is traumatized too, arguably just as much, and he deserves better than to be a prop for someone else's character development while not getting any support himself. So I hope they will not 'flirt for a few chapters' then stop, because for someone with the sort of issues Kaladin has the simple fact of acknowledging (lighteyed) Shallan in a romantic sense means making himself pretty vulnerable. If they do go there, it'd better be a real relationship, not a flirtation, no matter how long or short, and be a positive development for both characters involved. 'Shallan loved Adolin all along' is... something I don't believe either the story or the characters need. You can get a romantic Shallan/Adolin endgame in some other way.

Quote

There is a saying in my language, that may sound stupid in english, that when two fight, the third will win. 

 

@mariapapadia PLEASE tell me you meant 'fra i due litiganti, il terzo gode'

[Calderis]

OK... I normally stay out of these threads... But I think the claim that more people would be happy with Kaladin dying than Adolin is pushing it a bit. 

Ship who you want. Whatever. Start saying that people would be okay with killing a character who has been one of the main protagonists in the book, over a character that has played a mainly supporting role, and you're pushing it. 

I like Adolin. He's a good character. If he were to die that would suck. But for a good chunk of the more casual readers, killing Kaladin would be a betrayal of the unspoken contract between the author and reader. It could be done, but it would have to be handled amazingly well. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Elena said:

Yes, Shallan is traumatized, but Kaladin is traumatized too, arguably just as much, and he deserves better than to be a prop for someone else's character development while not getting any support himself. So I hope they will not 'flirt for a few chapters' then stop, because for someone with the sort of issues Kaladin has the simple fact of acknowledging (lighteyed) Shallan in a romantic sense means making himself pretty vulnerable. If they do go there, it'd better be a real relationship, not a flirtation, no matter how long or short, and be a positive development for both characters involved. 'Shallan loved Adolin all along' is... something I don't believe either the story or the characters need. You can get a romantic Shallan/Adolin endgame in some other way.

I agree. That way would be pretty disappointing. Using Kaladin to assert Shallan and Adolin? That is just cruel.

As Shallan already observed Kaladin is a "passionate" man. It would really, really knock him down.

Edited September 30, 2017 by SLNC

[+eveorjoy]

49 minutes ago, Elena said:

That said, I agree with @Starlathat the premise of the original post does a disservice to Kaladin's character. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the intention, but saying 'Shalladin is fine because it will make Shadolin better in the long run' throws Kaladin's character development under the bus for the sake of furthering Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Can't we just say 'this tangled romantic situation is good because it's going to lead to character growth for all involved'?

Yes, Shallan is traumatized, but Kaladin is traumatized too, arguably just as much, and he deserves better than to be a prop for someone else's character development while not getting any support himself. So I hope they will not 'flirt for a few chapters' then stop, because for someone with the sort of issues Kaladin has the simple fact of acknowledging (lighteyed) Shallan in a romantic sense means making himself pretty vulnerable. If they do go there, it'd better be a real relationship, not a flirtation, no matter how long or short, and be a positive development for both characters involved. 'Shallan loved Adolin all along' is... something I don't believe either the story or the characters need. You can get a romantic Shallan/Adolin endgame in some other way.

Sigh.... Anyone who thinks I was advocating Shalladin would just be a prop to help Shadolin missed my point. My point was to avoid the dreaded love triangle and allow Shallan a chance to be with both Adolin and Kalladin in turn. If Kaladin and Shallan were in a relationship, I'd be very disappointed in Shallan if she just dumped Kal for no reason. 

I think Kaladin and Shallan are doomed to fail in a relationship because Kaladin hasn't told Shallan "by the way, I killed your brother." I'm certain she will not find out the truth from Kaladin. When Shallan finds out from someone else that it was Kaladin who killed Heleran that will end his chance at courting her. Kaladin will be hurt by this, but he will grow from it. He will learn he need to admit to the people he cares about the truth. The relationship will help Kaladin as much as Shallan. I wouldn't want them together if that were not the case.

So Kaladin's feelings weren't being ignored by me. I just don't believe they can make it unless Kaladin tells Shallan the truth and I don't think he will. It wouldn't be as good of a story if he did and it would be out of character for him. How would he even start the conversation? "Sit down Shallan. Now your brother was a murdering jerk and I had to protect Amaram so I killed him." Yeah that will go over well with her. I worry about them being able to stay friends once she learns the truth, let alone be in a relationship.   

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

OK... I normally stay out of these threads... But I think the claim that more people would be happy with Kaladin dying than Adolin is pushing it a bit. 

Ship who you want. Whatever. Start saying that people would be okay with killing a character who has been one of the main protagonists in the book, over a character that has played a mainly supporting role, and you're pushing it. 

I like Adolin. He's a good character. If he were to die that would suck. But for a good chunk of the more casual readers, killing Kaladin would be a betrayal of the unspoken contract between the author and reader. It could be done, but it would have to be handled amazingly well. 

Yeah, I was a bit shocked when this idea was suggested as well. I think there are a lot of Shadolin shippers who would still prefer Adolin dead over Kaladin. Actually, I don't want either of them dead if it can be avoided. 

I think it is funny how these forums have changed. Their was a lot of Adolin hate on the forums before WoR. I think when Adolin did the exact opposite of what Amaram did and allowed Kaladin to give away his shards, many who once disliked Adolin loved him. He had helped Kaladin heal just a little and allowed Kaladin to start to have a friend who was an equal. This is where a lot of the Kaladolin shipping came from as well. So we began to realize he was the great guy the Adolin fans had yelled he was for years. The Adolin haters melted away, but the Adolin defenders, hardened by years of having to defend their guy stayed as loud as ever. I see why new posters might assume the majority here are pro-Adolin and anti-Kal. I know this is not the case, but I understand the misconception.

[Elena]

 

ETA: I messed up the quotes :/

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Sigh.... Anyone who thinks I was advocating Shalladin would just be a prop to help Shadolin missed my point. My point was to avoid the dreaded love triangle and allow Shallan a chance to be with both Adolin and Kalladin in turn. If Kaladin and Shallan were in a relationship, I'd be very disappointed in Shallan if she just dumped Kal for no reason. 

 

@eveorjoy   I did say 'I'm sure that was not the intention', but this is what you wrote

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Shalladin would help Shaolin become a lasting relationship.

That might sound like an odd statement, but it is true. I think we worry about Shalladin because Kal is a great guy and why would Shallan leave him once they were together. Further, it would destroy the budding bromance between Kaladin and Adolin. However, I don't think either of these fears would come to pass if Shallan and Kaladin flirted for a few chapters to half a book and it would bring great conflict, but not be a true love triangle, at least not in the classic sense. I have already established why Kaladin and Shallan are doomed as a couple, so I am not going to go over that again. However, I don't think Kaladin and Shallan flirting will harm his friendship with Adolin at all. I don't think Kal would pursue a relationship with Shallan until Adolin is out of the picture because of the friendship (and she's lighteyed, or that is what Kaladin will tell himself until Adolin is exiled).   

Once again, I do get what you meant. But as you said yourself, the Shalladin relationship gets A LOT of truly unnecessary crap. I don't think I have ever seen a Shallan/Kaladin thread that did not immediately have someone barging in to say 'this is why it's a bad idea', with the people against always outnumbering those in favour. It gets routinely brought up with negative connotations pretty often - the recent 'what you don't want to see in OB' being an example, but there are dozens - by contrast, I've hardly ever seen someone bring up Shalladin in a positive way in a thread that was not specifically about shipping or the OB chaptes threads.

Heck, it took until the OB chapters were released for the fandom at large to admit that yes, there might be something there - up to a few months ago the consensus was that shippers were reading too much into it and a love triangle would never happen becausd Shallan reminds Kaladin of Tien and whatnot. People who like Shalladin had to fight just to get acknowledgement of the fact that the relationship is a real possibility and not a collective delusion. All those 'Brandon would never do that' feel patronizing after a while.

So in light of this, when someone names a thread 'Shalladin isn't that bad an idea' and begins with 'So, Shalladin shippers have it hard', but then goes on to explain that the reason why the dreaded Shalladin isn't really that bad is because it will make Shadolin stronger, there is no harm in a filtration that lasts a few chapter and Shalladin is doomed anyway... You can't fault people for getting a bit piqued and think Shalladin (and Kal especially) are being used as a prop. That's not what you meant, and rereading the post a couple of times there are phrases that make it clear that you're not dismissin Kaladin's progression, but t'she wording (especially the bolded bits) have an implication of 'the reason why this controversial ship is fne it because it can really help this other popular ship'. It's great to know you also want good character development all around and I hope my previous post didn't come across as annoying/ a personal attack, but I hope that now my reasons for writing what I did are clearer.

 

Moving on! About Helaran. Now, I think it's clear that I want Shalladin to happen and that I don't really care which direction is going to go as long as it's satisfying, but I don't think the relationship is dead on arrival because of Helaran. It is a huge blow, more important than a lot of Shalladin shippers acknowledge, but not necessarily The End

1) Shallan has already acknowledged that Helaran's death was on Helaran. She heard the account of what he did in battle. Her first reaction was of hate for Amaram, but she grew to understand that he did die in battle - one where he didn't conduct himself honourably. When she and Kaladin will talk about it, he'll probably give her a more detailed account. As things stand, if Kal and Shallan talked about it she will probably be able to be civil, even friendly after some time, with Kaladin. But I can see why she wouldn't want a relationship with the killer of her beloved brother. But she will realize that

2) Helaran failed Shallan. He failed his family. Balat says it at some point; Helaran left and didn't look back. He was a Shardbearer, he could have put his Blade in the Highprince's service, gained lands of his own in exchange and taken care of his family. He didn't. He left them with their father, a man he believed to be a murderer, because whatever he was doing was more important. Shallan never acknowledged that because she is very attached to her memories/ idealized her brother, but she will at some point. There is also the fact of who exactly Helaran was working for and what he was trying to accomplish. It may have been the Skybreakers, or not. She might meet the Skybreakers and hate them. she might find out her brother's plan and disagree. Either ways, I think she is going to reconsider her opinion to Helaran to some extent - may be a little, may be a lot - and of Helaran's death in light of her killing her mother.

I don't necessarily think this will lead to her forgiving Kaladin to the point that she's comfortable being in a relationship with him, and it would be difficult to write were that the case, but I think that Kaladin's actions don't automatically mean that they could never work out.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Elena
quote function hates me

[+eveorjoy]

@Elena.. I just find it frustrating that some who read my original post assume that I don't care about Kaladin because I have a slight preference for Adolin and Shallan being together. They make a cute couple and it is refreshing to not have the main hero end up with the main heroine.

The point of my thread was, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO ENDS UP WITH WHOM BECAUSE BRANDON WILL MAKE THE STORY AWESOME ANYWAY! That those demanding Brandon not consider pairing Kaladin and Shallan for even a paragraph should chill. Brandon could make it work and not make it dull and trite. That was my point.

I personally do not think Kaladin and Shallan will work for reasons I have stated several times now. That said if they end up together, great. I would be sad for Adolin, but I would be happy for Shallan and Kaladin if they could make it work. 

So I am sorry my post offended you in any way. SA are awesome books, currently my favorites, but they are just books. 

I should have kept my shardplate on. Shippers. Oy Vey. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by eveorjoy

[Elena]

48 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

The point of my thread was, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO ENDS UP WITH WHOM BECAUSE BRANDON WILL MAKE THE STORY AWESOME ANYWAY!

Yes pretty much I used to be chill with it because I believe romance will be minor, but having read Mistborn Era 2 I think it will genuinely be great. He's improved a lot with the romantic (and comedy) stuff.

Also absolutely not and I apologize too! I hope we'll all be satisfied with the book if we don't spontaneusly combust first

[Aleksiel]

Regarding the idea that Kaladin is unpopular or disliked character, I must admit I'm very surprised someone would draw such a conclusion from the thread. I think you guys confuse dislike for love triangle or Shalladin with disliking Kaladin, which is wrong. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Regarding the idea that Kaladin is unpopular or disliked character, I must admit I'm very surprised someone would draw such a conclusion from the thread. I think you guys confuse dislike for love triangle or Shalladin with disliking Kaladin, which is wrong. 

And yet, many give the impression, they would rather use Kaladin as a prop for Shallan falling in love with Adolin. It is bound to elicit some reaction from the us on the other side.