[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[Harbour]

Quote

“Neither of us is going to mess this up,” she said to him, squeezing his hand. “Despite you'll think its a good idea to hide the truth from me and ill encourage you to keep your secrets.”

“Promise?” he asked.

“I promise. Let’s look at this notebook of yours and see what it says about you.”

Cant help myself but to fix some things.

[Ward]

3 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

So why are these spren so interested in sex? This is the second time in 6 chapters, and it's a little weird...

Is it pointing to a Shalladin syl pattern thing? PLEASE NO

A ton of human civil pattern is based on regulation of sexual relationships. Society is one big mating dance. If you were asexual, slowly becoming more aware, would you not find this fascinating?

I give Brandon props for keeping it PG-13, but still lightly exploring an idea that naturally crops up due to his worldbuilding

[vividox]

“Inappropriate?” Pattern said. “Such as… dividing by zero?”

 

 

Love. It.

[King Cole]

Only two words are necessary

 

"NO MATING" 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I think it because I feel like, that she already is losing her grip on her identity. Managing multiple identities doesn't help it. And let's face it: her carefree demeanor is just a facade. She is mentally unstable.

To quote from the chapter:

Quote

I killed my parents. I stabbed my mother through the chest and I strangled my father while singing to him.

Being mentally unstable is practically Shallan's default state. She even jokes about being insane, mad or crazy.

I don't see anything that makes me thing she's losing grip on her identity. Her extra personas are a tool (so far), and she's able to quickly slip in and out as necessary.

[yulerule]

Maybe she's coping somehow so far. But what about when her brothers show up now that she's admitted these truths?

Will she tell them about their mother?

[Guest]

Just now, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't see anything that makes me thing she's losing grip on her identity. Her extra personas are a tool (so far), and she's able to quickly slip in and out as necessary.

She's splitting her identity up. What is her default identity? When will she stop? Something unpleasant (like having to wield Pattern) comes up and she creates a different identity that can cope with the unpleasant ness? I do think, that that is dangerous. Especially considering her truth progression. She has found a new way to dodge getting confronted with her truths.

[JoyBlu]

My first reactions without reading any other posts yet.

Chapter 13: Chaperone

Quote

I ask only that you read or listen to these words.

—From Oathbringer, preface

And the Preface Puzzle clues continue: Read or listen.  So the audience for Oathbringer is intended for both women and men.

Strata: A Knife can't scratch it? Fascinating. We know others used chalk to mark it temporarily.  That stone knob must have been pre-built into the wall. I love that we know she has so many sketches of the strata.  She or Jasnah will look at them later and use these sketches to figure out the pattern in them to decipher their meaning.  The fact that they can't be scratched tells me that they are preserved and hold great meaning. I love how the mysterious strata is described in this building of Urithiru's shadowed depths

• Twisting
• Madness curling towards darkness
• Mesmerizing

Quote

“Out!” Shallan said, waving her freehand at him. “Out, out, out!”

Shallan is so modest.  I find this hilarious as it at such odds with her personality.  I also don't remember her being this way around Kaladin.  She portrays herself differently with Adolin because the expectations are so different. 

Quote

my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine

OK -- What does this mean? I know it is significant but lack the proof to reason what/how it is important.  Born under the sign of nine? Sounds like some serious foreshadowing going on here. Not to bring this up to rehash-- but I view this as evidence that Adolin will become the champion with 9 shadows--or perhaps fight the champion with 9 shadows.

 

     Adolin (Highprince of Fashion)  @Stark  discussing undergarments. This entire scene had me cracking up.  Both characters were so true to themselves and the exchanges were brilliant.  Loved these two together -- and I wasn't expecting to like them alone (well almost alone) together so much.  Adolins "Secrets are important" line was almost my favorite line in this chapter. (No Mating! by pattern wins that award.  Can't wait to quote that to my teenagers as they head out for the night.) I think that will either be what brings Adolin & Shallan together (they both have secrets that they murdered secretly) or the one thing that drives them apart because they just can't understand the other one without the entire truth and they will judge the other for basically being what they themselves are.

     Pattern  What is up with all the spren being so curious about mating? What if the spren hook up with other spren? Last weeks posts had me laughing so much about Syl's interests in the subject.  But please remember that teenagers are reading these posts too and last week I had to explain a few. (but yet I'm still laughing)

     May Aladar  She is off screen -- but we are getting something from her.  Who put her in charge of that report? Seeing this report makes me think that Shallan will be the one to figure out it was Adolin that killed Sadeus.  But maybe it will be May?

     Ash's eyes  Is this a new saying/curse?  I don't recall hearing it before. Storms, what does it really mean/signify?

 

Quote

“It’s worse for me.”  (quoting Adolin)

Why is being not good at relationships worse for Adolin?  Is it because he is "royalty"?  That is the only thing I can think of but I'm not sure that is what he meant.

 

Quote

For a time, Shallan ignored her pain and savored the moment—good food, good company, the setting sun casting ruby and topaz light across the mountains and into the room.

I was intrigued by the use of the word casting in the above line.  It reminded me of soul casting.  Not sure if it is connected somehow but just as a sun casts its powerful light and we can recreate it with electricity how is soul casting recreating or imitating another power?

 

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 13: Chaperone

Shallanspren

Shamespren

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 13: Chaperone

Black upper reaches

blue uniform

sun casting ruby & topaz light

soft yellow (wine)

 

Chapter 14: Squires Can't Capture

Is this foreshadowing that squires can't capture their own spren?  hmmmmm

Quote

In this record, I hold nothing back. I will try not to shy away from difficult topics, or paint myself in a dishonestly heroic light.

—From Oathbringer, preface

The paint myself line made me think of Shallan

Dim light.  (Surrounded by dim minded group of people) Who are not as dim as they once were. I bet in the next scene we will see the light increase as the capacity and understanding of the parshmen increase.

Voidbringers It looked like their forms have changed somehow but yet they still have individual memories of their experiences of life.  Experiencing frustration seems to be a new emotion for them?

Quote

The male began gathering up the cards. “I should know, Khen. How many times did I watch them play? Standing there with my tray of drinks. I should be an expert at this, shouldn’t I?”

 

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 14: Squires Can't Capture

None stated

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 14: Squires Can't Capture

marbled white and red skin

deep red or black  (skin like Rlain)

No red eyes

Dark red beard (male)

glowing yellow ribbon ( sounds like a bonded spren to me)

 

Chapter 15: Brightness Radiant

he he he -- so much fun to hear Shallan speculate on the murderer when he is right in front of her!!! She will probably only care to solve it because she want to "help" or impress Adolin. Then when she does she will be shocked! I loved their dialog and the "innocence" of it all. 

Quote

Wait until Adolin sees a Cryptic in Shadesmar form, she thought, with a full body but twisting shapes for his head.

uh? When does she expect to take him to Shadesmar?  Its not like most people get to experience that!

Shallan is so insecure! Her poor broken soul! She is hiding from herself. Are she and Adolin opposites or the same? This betrothal is important to her.

Quote

He’s going to break off our betrothal!

The thought of breaking down in front of Adolin heightened her tension.

No. No, just be someone else.

I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace.

 

Quote

I dreamed for years of earning my Blade! So many men spend their lives with that very dream and never see it fulfilled. And here you have one!”

So did Adolin earn his blade? How? I just assumed he got it from his mom or dad. I thought it was a given  but apparently not -- he dreamed for years for it.

I loved Adolin's passion and respect for all the shards. (Bland, Plate, & Mount)

How long has Zahel been interacting with the Kholin family?  The "long ago" comment made me wonder. What if Shallan accidentally kills Adolin while they are sparring? I mean -- what if Pattern kills Shallan because he doesn't understand the nuances of Adolin being the murderer? This would be after Shallan truly fell in love with Adolin of course. That would be more hurtful than with of her parents deaths.

As I said above, Shallan & Adolin will either work because of their mutual deception (hiding their true murderous selves) or they won't. By enhancing herself Shallan is gaining confidence -- which is all well and good -- but she is not opening up her true self for love. (She loathes herself anyway) It will be fun to see how Jasnah reacts to all these new relationships that formed while she was away.

Quote

His blue eyes were alight, and Shallan loved seeing that glow from him. Almost like Stormlight. She knew that passion—she’d felt what it was to be alive with interest, to be consumed by something so fully that you lost yourself in the wonder of it. For her it was art, but watching him, she thought that the two of them weren’t so different.

Wow -- almost like Stormlight behind those eyes.  I know there is more to that but I don't grasp it fully now. What power/influence/connection does Adolin and possibly many lighteyes already have?

 

Quote

Pattern hummed softly a tone she’d come to recognize as confusion. The bewilderment of one species trying to comprehend the mind of another.

OK -- So Pattern hums all the time.  This time when I read this I thought of the Parshindi and how they hum.  I'm not sure that I have heard them attune confusion, but Eshoni was confused, or pretending to be in the prologue of Oathbringer. I'm guessing that Pattern's language is closer to the Parshindi than it is to the language Shallan speaks. The humming sounds close to the rhythms. Probably inspired by the same influence. Hopefully Pattern can help Shallon understand the parshmen/parshindi.

 

Quote

She trailed back into her room—strangely contented for all that the world might be in the middle of ending. That night she slept, for once, in peace.

Our little girl, for once is secure, (albeit she experienced this while not completely 100% her raw self) and Adolin was the one that brought her this peace.  Sweet dreams Shallon.  I hope it lasts.

 

SPREN OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 15: Brightness Radiant

None stated

COLOR OBSERVATIONS for Oathbringer Chapter 15: Brightness Radiant

blue eyes ( Adolin)

[Nicrosil]

The Shallan x Adolin/Kaladin/Renarin/Szeth train will never be stopped!

As far as Shallan breaking herself with too many personalities... We may be latching on to this theory. Like, a lot of people thought that Adolin's wrist would become a major plot point, but it was resolved in 1 paragraph. We're too focused on finding foreshadowing that we're latching into minor details. 

Although, I am a lot more for Adolin reviving his Blade after these chapters. 

The yellow spren might not be a sentient spren like Syl; it could be a power one of the Void forms gives? Like, stormform let's you throw lightning and summon the worst disaster the world has ever known, and shrillvoiceform let's you highlight things with yellow light. 

[Ward]

2 hours ago, WatcherofTruth said:

Maybe a small thing but did anyone else notice that Urithiru's walls couldn't be scratched by an ordinary blade? Now I'm even more curious about how it was built, and to find out if the modern radiants can replicate it.

There were a lot of Sander-hints these chapters about the swirling patterns being significant somehow

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

I wonder what if all of this will lead Kaladin to become the "good parshendi"'s defender and later their leader. And then both he and Dalinar will try to create some sort of peace between them.

I feel that this would render Eshonai's existence entirely pointless. If anyone will lead the Parshendi it's her.

If she becomes some sort of wandering radiant Listener champion, then Thude or another can lead them.

I'm not a fan of the "white savior."

Edited September 26, 2017 by Nymeros

[kari-no-sugata]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She's splitting her identity up. What is her default identity? When will she stop? Something unpleasant (like having to wield Pattern) comes up and she creates a different identity that can cope with the unpleasant ness? I do think, that that is dangerous. Especially considering her truth progression. She has found a new way to dodge getting confronted with her truths.

You say it's like something permanent. Does learning something new permanently split your memory? Does learning a new social skill split your identity up? Shallan is clearly able to decide when to be Shallan and when not to be.

I agree it could become a problem for her Truth progression. However, I think that would only be a real problem if she spends a lot of time in another persona, which seems unlikely at the moment - Veil is for going out as a Darkeyes (not something she needs to do very often) and Brightness Radiant is for when wielding a Shardblade (again not something she's going to be doing that often).

[Elena]

13 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

Adolin (Highprince of Fashion)

this reminded me: we still don't know if he's become Highprince or not.

[Steeldancer]

10 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I feel that this would render Eshonai's existence entirely pointless. If anyone will lead the Parshendi it's her.

If she becomes some sort of wandering radiant Listener champion, then Thude or another can lead them.

I'm not a fan of the "white savior."

Last I checked, Kaladin isn't exactly white. I'm not sure anyone really is (maybe shallan). 

Plus, no one cares about that kind of skin color on Roshar. They do care about other ones though...

[kmosiman]

 

Quote

  Quote

I dreamed for years of earning my Blade! So many men spend their lives with that very dream and never see it fulfilled. And here you have one!”

So did Adolin earn his blade? How? I just assumed he got it from his mom or dad. I thought it was a given  but apparently not -- he dreamed for years for it.

I believe it was mention in a flashback/memory that Adolin only inherited his plate from his mother.

He won his blade in a duel. His plate was wagered against the other man's blade.

I can't remember the chapter, but he thinks about it before one of the duels.

 

Dueling may be his calling, but I like how he immediately thinks about training.

Dalinar had already thought to train the dark-eyed body guards with Shardblades, so they had already stretched the cultural norms.

Adolin briefly justifies teaching a woman, but quickly moves past the cultural issues.

She has a blade, she needs to know how to use it (it's also great way to spend some quality time with his girlfriend while doing the thing he loves the most).

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by kmosiman
fixed quote

[mariapapadia]

16 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

To quote from the chapter:

Being mentally unstable is practically Shallan's default state. She even jokes about being insane, mad or crazy.

I don't see anything that makes me thing she's losing grip on her identity. Her extra personas are a tool (so far), and she's able to quickly slip in and out as necessary.

I would agree Veil is more of a tool, because she uses that persona when she needs to infiltrate, but the way Radiant was presented/introduced, seemed more like avoiding an uncomfortable truth. And if is so easy for her to just switch between these characters she creates for herself she could avoid it for as long as she wants. Which I think a lot of us consider is not such a healthy way to solve the problems. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Veil is for going out as a Darkeyes (not something she needs to do very often) and Brightness Radiant is for when wielding a Shardblade (again not something she's going to be doing that often).

But the thing is, that underneath all of that she is still Shallan. Everything that she does, even as those personas, she is still doing as Shallan. It is just an illusion she's creating for herself. A coping mechanism. She is plucking herself into so many different things. Yes, at the moment, she still can identify the "real" Shallan, but what if she keeps going? Actively avoiding unpleasant situations, by creating another form of Shallan, that can cope with it. Essentially shrinking the original Shallan to something next to nothing.

Admitting truths is hard for Shallan, if she already creates a different persona for just holding Pattern as a Shardblade, I don't know what she will do when there comes the next part of her progression.

[king of nowhere]

35 minutes ago, Spicker said:

 

I mostly think it would cut it, we have no reason to think otherwise. But with how weird the stone is, I wouldn't be surprised if we find out they can't cut through the rock. Maybe it has some aluminum in it? 

 

Soulcast aluinium is known in roshar; in one of her flashbacks shallan was gifted an aluminium necklace. So if bloacking a shardblade was as simple as using aluminium, someone would have found out already. Like, a guy struck by a shardblade is saved by a bit of jewelry he was wearing.

18 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Maybe she's coping somehow so far. But what about when her brothers show up now that she's admitted these truths?

Will she tell them about their mother?

I hope so. Her father deserves his memory to be partially rehabilitated. As in "he was a monster and a murderer, but he became such as a consequence of great stress that was not his fault". I am thinking, in fact, that knowing that could heal shallan's family. After all, shallan's mother was the one who started it by tryiing to kill shallan for being a protoradiant. She was killed in self-defence by shallan. this caused her father to go crazy, and in his madness he did some horrible deeds, culminating with killing his secnd wife. He was also killed for self-defence". This shift most of the blame to shallan's mother, and more importantly it gives better reasons for all gthe bad things that happened. It wasn't just jealousy and pettyness; the mother was likely more misguided than evil, and the father was mad. that could make the rest of them fel better about what happened after. At least it would make me feel better, knowing that my parents had actual legitimate reasons for doing bad stuff that before looked completely unjustified; I don't know if it makes sense to the rest of you.

16 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

OK -- What does this mean? I know it is significant but lack the proof to reason what/how it is important.  Born under the sign of nine? Sounds like some serious foreshadowing going on here. Not to bring this up to rehash-- but I view this as evidence that Adolin will become the champion with 9 shadows--or perhaps fight the champion with 9 shadows.

@Stark

 

 

So did Adolin earn his blade? How? I just assumed he got it from his mom or dad. I thought it was a given  but apparently not -- he dreamed for years for it.

 

Given how important the number 10 is in vorin culture, I'd say there are 10 signs, one for each month. So, about one tenth of the population is born under the sign of nine. Doesn't seem much of a clue about anything.

As for his shardblade, adolin won it in a duel; he got the plate from his mother, and wagered it the blade of another guy in a duel, whom adolin won. It is mentioned in WoR

6 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

You say it's like something permanent. Does learning something new permanently split your memory? Does learning a new social skill split your identity up? Shallan is clearly able to decide when to be Shallan and when not to be.

Actually it does, if you're called Legion.

In fact, there are a lot of similarities there too.

[kiapet]

9 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Last I checked, Kaladin isn't exactly white. I'm not sure anyone really is (maybe shallan). 

Plus, no one cares about that kind of skin color on Roshar. They do care about other ones though...

"White Savior" doesn't have to mean only white people. It references a person from a socially advantageous position becoming the leader/savior of a group of socially disadvantaged people, suggesting whether deliberately or accidentally that the oppressed group needs someone from the "superior" group to save them. In this case, Kaladin, a high-ranking Alethi, would be saving/leading a group of historically enslaved people when there are characters belonging to that same racial group who would be well-suited to it. This is muddled by the fact that Kaladin faces heavy discrimination himself, but it has already been heavily established that even a darkeyes is considered superior to a Parshman.

[dendrophobe]

2 minutes ago, kiapet said:

"White Savior" doesn't have to mean only white people. It references a person from a socially advantageous position becoming the leader/savior of a group of socially disadvantaged people, suggesting whether deliberately or accidentally that the oppressed group needs someone from the "superior" group to save them. In this case, Kaladin, a high-ranking Alethi, would be saving/leading a group of historically enslaved people when there are characters belonging to that same racial group who would be well-suited to it. This is muddled by the fact that Kaladin faces heavy discrimination himself, but it has already been heavily established that even a darkeyes is considered superior to a Parshman.

I'd argue that in this case, the freed Parshmen are almost a different race than the Parshendi. In fact, Kaladin has been a heck of a lot less privileged than Eshonai, until very recently. Eshonai has so little in common with the freed Parshmen. Kaladin has at least experienced slavery.

[Nymeros]

15 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Last I checked, Kaladin isn't exactly white. I'm not sure anyone really is (maybe shallan). 

Plus, no one cares about that kind of skin color on Roshar. They do care about other ones though...

I'm aware that Kal isn't white. Hes not Parshendi though so he still had no business leading them....you don't have to be white to play the part of white savior.

33 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

Ash's eyes  Is this a new saying/curse?  I don't recall hearing it before. Storms, what does it really mean/signify?

Shallash? Herald or Beauty and Patron of Lightweavers? it makes sense that her eyes would be held as significant.....though I thought Ash was anickname used by the heralds and not a common name for her.

[Hischier]

20 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Last I checked, Kaladin isn't exactly white. I'm not sure anyone really is (maybe shallan). 

Plus, no one cares about that kind of skin color on Roshar. They do care about other ones though...

I don't think that's what @Nymeros was implying. On the other hand, I'm hoping none of that happens, anyway. We already have examples of the Parshendi being a regular (not evil) society and we already have Rlain, Thude and his crew and maybe Eshonai, as (potential) Parshendi good guys. I have zero interest in spending a significant time having Kaladin learn about Parshendi culture, etc. It's a nice twist to have the Parshendi as not all turning to evil monsters by the everstorm, but, well, it's a fantasy book and I want to see Radiant stuff.  Not a commentary on social injustice.  It's hard to do that if there's not a tangible threat at some point. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Hischier

[dendrophobe]

Just now, Nymeros said:

I'm aware that Kal isn't white. Hes not Parshendi though so he still had no business leading them....you don't have to be white to play the part of white savior.

 

OK, so which is worse... A Parshendi like Eshonai coming and leading the freed Parshmen, which is OK just because of race. Or a freed slave returning to help lead an entire people out of slavery. I know which one hits me in the feels. Race shouldn't be the factor that makes a hero - IMO, it shouldn't matter at all. Shared experience and empathy, now...

[kiapet]

1 minute ago, dendrophobe said:

OK, so which is worse... A Parshendi like Eshonai coming and leading the freed Parshmen, which is OK just because of race. Or a freed slave returning to help lead an entire people out of slavery. I know which one hits me in the feels. Race shouldn't be the factor that makes a hero - IMO, it shouldn't matter at all. Shared experience and empathy, now...

I don't think it's OK just because of race. The prologue showed that Eshonai and the other Parshendi view the Parshmen as brothers and sisters who have lost their songs, feeling a strong connection to them. And I don't think the Listeners were all that privileged- the Alethi treated them as sub-humans by denying them fair battle practices and instead seeking to exterminate them. Honestly, I think it would be best if members of the changed Parshmen lead themselves, but the escaped Parshendi hold cultural knowledge that could help them find an identity apart from centuries of slavery.

[Bernem]

So the awakened Parshmen have something/someone in the tent. I've seen that only one person has conjectured that there are voidbringers in there. My guess is that it is one or a few Stormform Parshedi. Odium guides or controls the voidbringers, and they in turn control the other Parshmen that Kaladin sees.

When Eshonai was transformed, she mentioned hearing new rhythms, like annoyance, fury, derision. Does that mean that Parshmen need to be able to hear rhythms to bond voidspren? If so, that could explain why the tuneless Parshmen speaking Alethi didn't transform into Stormform.

I hope we get Parshendi/Parshmen meetings on screen. It would be interesting for Eshonai's group to see "Listeners" that can't hear the rhythms. Also, if transformed Parshmen from different countries met each other, would they be unable to communicate? It seems like that would make Odium's job harder if his voidbringers couldn't all understand each other.