[OB] [SA3] Missing something: who unlocked it?

[Rhaegar'Elin he/him]

Probably there is something I'm missing or that I fail to understand but, reading SA3 new chapters, there is something that keeps bothering me: how the Oathgates work.

From chapter 12:

Quote

“Yes,” Navani said. “A Radiant needs to unlock the gate on this side— which we can do at any moment—then one has to travel to the destination city and undo the lock there as well. That done, a Radiant can initiate a transfer from either location.”

With my (poor) knowledge of the English language, seems to me that you need to unlock both ends of the Oathgate before travelling from and to Urithiru. This seems also to make sense because if the Oathgates didn't work that way, Dalinar needed only to unlock the Oathgate to Kolinar in order to settle the riot in his hometown.

But, if they indeed work this way, who unlocked the Oathgate in Urithiru when Shallan activated the Stormseat's one?

If I'm not missing something obvious, I have a couple of ideas on the matter (but none truly convincing me):

1) The Oathgates in Urithiru were sealed by the Radiants just before the Recreance: Stormseat's was the one they used to live the Holy City.

But, if that's the case, why don't use an Elsecaller to lock even the Stormseat's one and then leave with the Transportation Surge?

2) You could freely walk to Urithiru but needed some sort of "permission" to enter one of the Silver Kingdoms.

Again this doesn't seem to be the case: first, the Oathgates seems like of Pairing Fabrials (with a kind of symmetry) and Navani seems to imply that they are locked on the Urithiru side.

3) Someone (maybe a Radiant Worldhopper... possibly among the lines of the Ghostbloods) unlocked it.

But why? And how did he/she know Urithiru position and reached it? This doesn't seem to fit.

---

Anyway, I'm starting hoping I missed something obvious because this seems such a pivotal plot point (helping Dalinar's Army flee the Everstorm and "forcing" the action of the new book) to not address it.

[Andy92]

I think the one at Stormseat was the only Oathgate that hadn't been sealed. That's what Jasnah expected, and it's why she went searching for it. But I'm not sure if she ever exactly knew why that was the only unsealed one. 

[Kaladin Zahel]

This is a really nice catch. I only have 3 theories personally for this.

1. Sanderson goofed and will have to explain it in the next book or an edit.

Unlikely, since he is such an outliner.

2. For some reason when the recreance happens the KR all go to Natanatan using the portal. Some event happens which: causes them to close portals to Urithru,  causes fallout which creates the Shattered Plains, and causes them to abandon the oaths.

I prefer this theory because it makes the abandonment reactionary as opposed to premeditated. This also fits with Branderson's method of avalanches in his stories and could likely be a flashback plot yet to be written.

3. The KR do lockdown the portals intentionally, but leave one open as a safeguard in case their plan doesn't work out. Perhaps Renarin's order saw a potential future where the KR would have to reform using the method we have seen so far.

The problem with this is that this would have required bonded spren to cooberate the oath breaking which is basically suicide and not the impression we get from Syl and Pattern.

[ScavellTane]

From how I understand it, the Shattered Plains Oathgate had been forgotten even before the Recreance maybe even as far back as before the Last Desolation. The area was abandoned when it was shattered.

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

The problem with this is that this would have required bonded spren to cooberate the oath breaking which is basically suicide and not the impression we get from Syl and Pattern.

The Recreance vision showed the Windrunners surgebinding, and all of the blades glowing right up until dropped. 

There is absolutely no way an event like this could have been coordinated without the Spren being aware, and not viewing the actions taken up to that point as a breaking the Oaths. 

The only conclusion that makes any logical sense, is that the Spren were complicit in the act. Whatever caused the Recreance, the Spren agreed with their Knights. 

As to the Oathgates... We don't know how or why they were locked in the first place. Navani's words could easily just mean "we have to check that they aren't locked." 

[Mulk he/him]

I think I agree with Calderis in this, at least based on what we know to this point.  It sure looks like the spren cooperated in their own demise.  The KRs on screen in Dalinar's vision all had to know what they were about to do, and there is no chance their spren didn't know what was up.  We already know Syl can withdraw Kaladin's ability to use stormlight, so it follows that she doesn't HAVE to become a sword if she doesn't want to. I will of course reserve the right to change my mind...

There are things the spren who are talking on screen (so, Syl, Pattern and Wyndle thus far) makes it clear to me that the only spren who ever were bonded aside from the Stormfather himself are dead - and the Stormfather at this point isn't talking.  No one in Shadesmar seems to know the details of why the Recreance happened, only that it happened and a lot of their friends/colleagues are dead.  No one on Roshar remembers and I think Jasnah's research and frustration points out how hard it is to make out fact from fiction, not to mention what is flat out missing after ~5000 years plus wanton destruction and rewrite by the Vorin church.  Barring the Stormfather's input, we may never know.  Brandon may not want us to, at least not anytime soon.  And in any case, the Stormfather is the very essence of oaths and binding - there is almost no chance he would view oathbreaking as anything other than bad, even if there is a justification.

As to the Oathgates themselves, I would guess at this point in the story that Shallan (or Renarin I guess) has attempted to travel to each of the other Oathgates and found them all locked.  I mean, really, if they turn the lock on the Oathgate fabrial to whatever other city they are trying to reach and it doesn't transport them, the gate is either locked or destroyed on the other end. And since it doesn't transport them, it's doubtful it uses up Stormlight.  It does, however, beg the question of whether Jasnah actually figured out how to use the one in Kholinar since they see it as locked.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

My guess is that the Urithiru one never is locked. The others are. 

[Aminar]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My guess is that the Urithiru one never is locked. The others are. 

This makes the most sense. It's the central Hub. The outer ones were deactivated/broken/lost charge/what have you. And without the connection the outer ones need a reboot. 

[Khyrindor he/him]

It seems obvious to me that previously, none of the Oathgates on Urithiru's side were locked, and all other sides (excluding Stormseat) were. When the warcamps made it to Urithiru, they must have locked the gates so that no one can come without their permission and surprise them.

[Jofwu he/him]

The Stormseat gate in Urithiru was obviously unlocked, but we can only speculate as to why. I don't see any reason to assume there's no good explanation.

For example, maybe Urithiru wasn't on good terms with the other kingdoms before its demise and it locked them out to make a statement. And they just didn't bother with Stormseat because it was destroyed long before. Then the other sides were locked later.

[Yata he/him]

The Stormseat's One wasn't locked.

Maybe they choose to leave One access open or maybe all' the orders with trasportation way already broke their Oaths and the Knight could not Seal off Urithuru without be' struck into

[Rhaegar'Elin he/him]

Thanks for your reply: I'm glad I didn't miss anything big.

26 minutes ago, Rider of Storms said:

It seems obvious to me that previously, none of the Oathgates on Urithiru's side were locked, and all other sides (excluding Stormseat) were. When the warcamps made it to Urithiru, they must have locked the gates so that no one can come without their permission and surprise them.

That could be... but why don't drop a line explaining that? That's the principal reason bothering me.

5 minutes ago, jofwu said:

The Stormseat gate in Urithiru was obviously unlocked, but we can only speculate as to why. I don't see any reason to assume there's no good explanation.

For example, maybe Urithiru wasn't on good terms with the other kingdoms before its demise and it locked them out to make a statement. And they just didn't bother with Stormseat because it was destroyed long before. Then the other sides were locked later.

Maybe my OP wasn't clear but I never stated there wasn't a good explanation: simply that I couldn't find out one.

And, as stated above it's more that none of the characters has talked about it or even mentioned it (being the sheer luck of having oddly found the only one unlocked or remarking how they locked the others fearing an enemy attack).

What I mean is, if there is really a "mystery" behind the Oathgate to Stormseats, I would have liked that Brandon would have flashed it a bit more (just making someone stating how they were lucky finding the one unlocked)* or, if there isn't anything odd, he would have explicitly stated it.

Anyway, your assumptions sounds plausible.

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

The Stormseat's One wasn't locked.

Right now, this seems to me the most probable explanation: we only need to find why.

---

*Even if what @Andy92 says (that I completely forgotten) should be proof enough, I would have liked a simple "reminder" in this chapters.

[Hischier]

14 minutes ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

Thanks for your reply: I'm glad I didn't miss anything big.

That could be... but why don't drop a line explaining that? That's the principal reason bothering me.

Maybe my OP wasn't clear but I never stated there wasn't a good explanation: simply that I couldn't find out one.

And, as stated above it's more that none of the characters has talked about it or even mentioned it (being the sheer luck of having oddly found the only one unlocked or remarking how they locked the others fearing an enemy attack).

What I mean is, if there is really a "mystery" behind the Oathgate to Stormseats, I would have liked that Brandon would have flashed it a bit more (just making someone stating how they were lucky finding the one unlocked)* or, if there isn't anything odd, he would have explicitly stated it.

Anyway, your assumptions sounds plausible.

Right now, this seems to me the most probable explanation: we only need to find why.

---

*Even if what @Andy92 says (that I completely forgotten) should be proof enough, I would have liked a simple "reminder" in this chapters.

I'd imagine it has something to do with the event that shattered the plains.  Do we know when they were shattered originally? If the oathgates were locked after the city fell maybe they didn't bother locking a gate in an unpopulated area. Or maybe the gates needed to be locked in a hurry so the others were locked first since they were in populated cities and something prevented them from locking the Natanatan gate.  You probably have to lock the gate from both sides the same way you have to open them from both sides.  

[Fulminato he/him]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

The Stormseat's One wasn't locked.

Maybe they choose to leave One access open or maybe all' the orders with trasportation way already broke their Oaths and the Knight could not Seal off Urithuru without be' struck into

stormseat was lost in the 'last' desolation (the desolation ending in the herald leave the honorblade), the recreance is a couple of millenia after that. the city has entombed with crem long before the lock gate after the recreance.

[Calderis he/him]

45 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

stormseat was lost in the 'last' desolation (the desolation ending in the herald leave the honorblade), the recreance is a couple of millenia after that. the city has entombed with crem long before the lock gate after the recreance.

Where was this explained? I thought we knew nothing about what shattered the plains. 

[Fulminato he/him]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Where was this explained? I thought we knew nothing about what shattered the plains. 

i don't have take any assumption on who and why the plain was shattered, but only when.

we know the city fall in the aharietiam, four millenia and half ago the present time. the recreance is two millenia ago (the best guessing). the oathgate don't had any strong real difference in 'crem deposit' with the bulding near of them (the build adolin use for his surprise assault). stormseat was abbandoned no long after the shattering, the city and the oathgate.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Fulminato

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

Thanks for your reply: I'm glad I didn't miss anything big.

That could be... but why don't drop a line explaining that? That's the principal reason bothering me.

Maybe my OP wasn't clear but I never stated there wasn't a good explanation: simply that I couldn't find out one.

And, as stated above it's more that none of the characters has talked about it or even mentioned it (being the sheer luck of having oddly found the only one unlocked or remarking how they locked the others fearing an enemy attack).

What I mean is, if there is really a "mystery" behind the Oathgate to Stormseats, I would have liked that Brandon would have flashed it a bit more (just making someone stating how they were lucky finding the one unlocked)* or, if there isn't anything odd, he would have explicitly stated it.

Anyway, your assumptions sounds plausible.

Right now, this seems to me the most probable explanation: we only need to find why.

---

*Even if what @Andy92 says (that I completely forgotten) should be proof enough, I would have liked a simple "reminder" in this chapters.

Sometimes you can't just drop a line because none of the characters on screen have a good enough understanding of what happened. We know way more about the metaphysics of Roshar than any of the PoV characters and can make inferences well beyond their understanding. 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

42 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

we know the city fall in the aharietiam

We do? Can you share where we learned this (the book reference, the WoB, etc.)?

[Fulminato he/him]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

We do? Can you share where we learned this (the book reference, the WoB, etc.)?

Navani held up the page. “You’re trying to overlay Stormseat with the Shattered Plains. It’s not going to work unless you have a point of reference.”
“Preferably two,” Shallan said.
“It’s been centuries since that city fell. It was destroyed during Aharietiam itself, I believe. We’re going to have trouble finding clues out here, though your list of descriptions will help.” She tapped her finger against the papers. WoR Chapter 77 "trust"

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 minute ago, Fulminato said:

It’s been centuries since that city fell. It was destroyed during Aharietiam itself, I believe.

Nice find! I would caution that this can be a case of the "unreliable narrator" though. Navani is not privy, as far as we are aware, to any special information. Aharietiam is so far in the past that it is mythological in nature; not to mention that the Hierochracy changed many records.

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

What if the oathgates are like a door. You have to put in the blade and turn the it one full time, then turning the whole mechanism will work. Like a key.

[rjl]

There seem to be two separate questions here:

1. Why was the gate from Stormseat open?

2. How did Jasnah know it was open?

My guess to number 2 is that she read it in a book somewhere... As for number 1; there had to be a path for the plot to work but as for a good justification maybe it will be one of the suggestions above - it being the route the last radiants used to leave or something like that; I think this is a key mystery we don't have an answer to yet and I hope we get one but I'm not aware of any good clues.

[lastofus]

 First Jasnah already tried to open the Oathgate in Kholinar but she couldn't activate it. We don't know when she got her Spren-blade. So it's possible that she couldn't open the gate because she didn't have the proper blade.

Secondly Stormseat was an important city in the old ages, like Kholinar, considering that Jasnah visited most major cities (Shallan spent a lot of time to catch up with her, her other wanna-be wards did the same before her), she already had exhausted other options.

Thirdly that city was destroyed with its gate still active so it's possible that KR didn't think about closing that particular gate.

So I say either of the following is correct:

1. They didn't need to be locked at both ends ( and the problem was with Jasnah not being able to activate others)

2. They could only need to close the one in Urithiru, but KR at the time didn't bother because they thought it was destroyed and didn't try to activate it.

3. They could be locked both ways but KR couldn't find it in shattered plains or didn't bother to because of time or any other reasons.

 

Personally I think number 3 looks more logical. You should remember that Skybreakers are still around so THEY could've used Urithiru as the base of operation but they didn't.

 

EDIT: All the talks about Navani throw me off, for a moment I thought she was the Elsecaller. Changed them to Jasnah now

Edited September 20, 2017 by lastofus

[17th Splinter he/him]

I think that even Jasnah wasn't sure if the stormseat oathgate was unlocked. She simply didn't have another option. 

[kari-no-sugata]

13 hours ago, lastofus said:

3. They could be locked both ways but KR couldn't find it in shattered plains or didn't bother to because of time or any other reasons.

 

Personally I think number 3 looks more logical. You should remember that Skybreakers are still around so THEY could've used Urithiru as the base of operation but they didn't.

This is what I think too: the Urithiru portals are like doors with locks on both sides. It's possible to leave either side unlocked as well. In other words, it's possible for anyone in Urithiru to block any other portal and it's possible for someone at any other portal to block access to Urithiru. It requires both sides to trust each other for a portal to be used.