[OB] [SA3] Missing something: who unlocked it?

[18th Shard he/him]

I believe the reasoning was that the Urithiru side was open for every gate, but the city side of rah gate was locked. Stormseat was left open because the city was destroyed and consequently ignored (if it's been dead for ~2000 years, as the quote above suggests, then it's been insignificant for a while).

[Andy92]

7 hours ago, 17th Splinter said:

I think that even Jasnah wasn't sure if the stormseat oathgate was unlocked. She simply didn't have another option. 

Right, I think she thought it was the only one that was possibly unsealed. But she had to travel to the Shattered Plains to verify it, which is pretty much Shallan's entire WoR arc because of Jasnah. 

[ScavellTane]

The Shattered Plains was most likely the last on her list since it was essentially hostile territory.

[Mulk he/him]

The biggest problem we have is we don't know what all Jasnah knew or how she knew it - most of what we know, we know from Shallan's discussions with Jasnah or with others about Jasnah - aside from the WOR prologue which fairly obvious predates her swearing any oaths as a Radiant, it's really hard to say where she got her info from. It seems to be pieced together across multitudinous works, a line here, a paragraph there, a sentence from over that way.  Though, from her notes, it is interesting we know for certain at least one thing she got wrong - she refers to the Unmade as "clearly" being fabrications.  So, while she is trustworthy regarding nuts and bolts and a lot of down to earth factual details, she's probably not a trustworthy resource (at least, prior to her Elsecalling into Shadesmar to escape death) regarding the supernatural aspects of the conflict.

If Navani was correct and the city was destroyed during Aharietam, then that is by far the most likely explanation for that gate not being locked - no one lived there, no one went there, and there was no reason to go to the trouble.  If the Recreance happened long enough after the Last Desolation, the door to where the fabrial itself is located would be too crusted in crem to be recognized as such by anyone who wasn't looking for such a thing, and maybe not even then, given Jasnah was about the only one on the planet who thought Stormseat was located on the Shattered Plains.

That leads me to a sideline though.  How much crem accumulates per highstorm and how long does it take for accumulation of crem to begin to render a structure unrecognizable as a human habitation to the casual eye.

[Calderis he/him]

42 minutes ago, Mulk said:

That leads me to a sideline though.  How much crem accumulates per highstorm and how long does it take for accumulation of crem to begin to render a structure unrecognizable as a human habitation to the casual eye.

In Kaladin's flashbacks, he Helps Hesina remove stalactites of hardened crem (cremcicles?) from roofs. The accumulation seems to be fairly large, but would be greatest at low lying areas. After a could years outside, I think anything Wooldridge have a thin layer on it, after a couple thousand.... I'm honestly surprised they didn't have to tunnel into the Oathgate room. 

[jamskinner]

Maybe they were all unlocked and since then they locked the other gates

[Helwar he/him]

I think the simple answer is:

If they were abandoning the place, and wanted to seal ALL the Oathgates in the city, someone had to stay in Urithiru... forever. Unless that someone could fly down. Let's assume there was noone left being able to fly. The Skybreakers went rogue and as I understand most of the KR involved in the recreance where Windrunners ( I think I remember this, don't quote me on this please). 

So, Oathgates are paired, there are ten in Urithiru, each linked to a big city and the Shattered Plains. They closed all but the Urithiru-Shattered Plains pair, the last guy left Urithiru and closed the Oathgate in the Shattered Plains.

 

Just... You can't close a door from the inside when you are outside

Edited September 21, 2017 by Helwar
rewording to clarify

[Calderis he/him]

@Helwar between Windrunners and Skybreakers with gravitation, and Elsecallers and Willshapers with Transportation... I find it hard to believe that not a single Radiant remained behind to lock the gates. 

I honestly think that the gates weren't locked previously. The one at Stormseat was usable because it was lost. The others though? No one remembers what they were. No one has attempted to use them. The One in Kholinar is built into the Palace by the look of things.

If they were locked from the outside after people left, they wouldn't be able to be unlocked without a living Sprenblade or an Honorblade anyway. What would be the purpose of locking both sides? 

I seriously think this is a non-issue. If the Oathgates in Urithiru are locked at this point, it's because Dalinar and Co. locked them. 

 

[Helwar he/him]

@Calderis by all means. This is just what I thought the first time the idea of "who unlocked the Urithiru Oathgate for them to use?" passed through my mind. 

Of course it can be whatever... 

 

The thing, I guess, is the possibility of an unknown variable opening the gate in urithiru prior to the Everstorm. Or maybe not, meh. RAFO!!!

[Calderis he/him]

I'm sure I obsess over things other people consider non-issues too. Didn't mean to sound all superior and judgey. 

[Helwar he/him]

Then all's great, because you didn't sound at all superior and judgey!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 9/20/2017 at 3:08 PM, Fulminato said:

Navani held up the page. “You’re trying to overlay Stormseat with the Shattered Plains. It’s not going to work unless you have a point of reference.”
“Preferably two,” Shallan said.
“It’s been centuries since that city fell. It was destroyed during Aharietiam itself, I believe. We’re going to have trouble finding clues out here, though your list of descriptions will help.” She tapped her finger against the papers. WoR Chapter 77 "trust"

I'll have to agree with CaptainRyan here. Aharietiam was 4,500 years ago. The Recreance was about 2,200 years ago, and probably led to destruction of records pertaining to the KR and Oathgates, among other related things. The Hierocracy was also a thing. Jasnah can hardly separate fact from fiction, and if this is a legend in Vorinism, that's even more suspect.

Brandon might be dropping a subtle hint here, but I imagine that we'll see the Shattering of the Shattered Plains eventually, so the accuracy of Navani's statement is not a big deal right now.

[Shrimple]

10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Brandon might be dropping a subtle hint here, but I imagine that we'll see the Shattering of the Shattered Plains eventually, so the accuracy of Navani's statement is not a big deal right now.

I thought the whole revelation with the the shattered plains being a city covered in crem, was that it wasn't shattered at all. Like you can cut into the crem and be in a building. I thought we were waiting to find out why the city was abandoned.

[Tarion]

On 21/09/2017 at 8:04 PM, Helwar said:

I think the simple answer is:

If they were abandoning the place, and wanted to seal ALL the Oathgates in the city, someone had to stay in Urithiru... forever. Unless that someone could fly down. Let's assume there was noone left being able to fly. The Skybreakers went rogue and as I understand most of the KR involved in the recreance where Windrunners ( I think I remember this, don't quote me on this please). 

So, Oathgates are paired, there are ten in Urithiru, each linked to a big city and the Shattered Plains. They closed all but the Urithiru-Shattered Plains pair, the last guy left Urithiru and closed the Oathgate in the Shattered Plains.

 

Just... You can't close a door from the inside when you are outside

I don't think the KR were any more involved with the Recreance than anyone else. We saw them at Feverstone Keep, IIRC, but all but one Order was involved equally - They all abandoned their Oaths at once. 

And there are other options than just flying down. Anyone with Transportation could leave, as could anyone with Friction, presumably (Manipulating air resistance for reduced falling speed). Which, overall, means roughly half the Orders could leave, even assuming that you don't just take in as much Stormlight as you can and just jump, as Kaladin did in the Chasms. 

Overall, I think if there was anyone left with a living Shardblade (I.e. anyone capable of actually locking the Gate) there was someone who could leave. 

[FiveLate]

On 9/21/2017 at 3:29 PM, Helwar said:

@Calderis by all means. This is just what I thought the first time the idea of "who unlocked the Urithiru Oathgate for them to use?" passed through my mind. 

Of course it can be whatever... 

 

The thing, I guess, is the possibility of an unknown variable opening the gate in urithiru prior to the Everstorm. Or maybe not, meh. RAFO!!!

I had been contemplating the same question for a while and came to a possible conclusion that I haven't seen mentioned yet.  We have scenes of Szeth being in Urithiru from the previous books.  In those scenes it is clear that he had been there previously. I think it is possible he tried to activate the Shattered planes Oathgate as a way to reach Dalinar faster.   But he only ended up unlocking the Urithiru side, thus leaving it unlocked and facilitating the escape.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 10/1/2017 at 6:22 AM, Shrimple said:

I thought the whole revelation with the the shattered plains being a city covered in crem, was that it wasn't shattered at all. Like you can cut into the crem and be in a building. I thought we were waiting to find out why the city was abandoned.

There was a signed book this one time...

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Great magic unleashed here. (Written in someone's book with an arrow pointing at the Shattered Plains)

So that's the biggest reason we still think the plains were shattered. That and the potential cymatic patterns(the plains being symmetrical).

---

Either way, we know something happened, and it'll be the cause of the city's abandonment and/or the plains being shattered.

[Terra of Roshar she/her]

I think "All the gates were locked on both sides by the KR as part of the Recreance but they didn't bother with the Shattered Plains one because it'd been unused for 2000 years" is the most likely. Jasnah either had reason to believe the KR locked the gates deliberately and knew the shattering timeline and therefore guessed that the Shattered Plains gate was unlocked, or had tried literally every other gate (except maybe the Aimian one) and was just hoping it'd work eventually.

[Pattern he/him]

On 2.10.2017 at 2:43 AM, FiveLate said:

We have scenes of Szeth being in Urithiru from the previous books.  In those scenes it is clear that he had been there previously. I think it is possible he tried to activate the Shattered planes Oathgate as a way to reach Dalinar faster.   But he only ended up unlocking the Urithiru side, thus leaving it unlocked and facilitating the escape.

This is a nice idea, it does not account for Jasnah believing that particular Oathgate being open, though. Jasnah would have got her information from old texts - as this is her modus operandi - after finding the Kholinar gate closed.

If Jasnah found reasons for the gate to be open in old books, it could not have been Szeth.

The most likely explanation for me is that Stormseat was destroyed/abandoned more then two millennia before the Recreance and thus has been forgotten. How it is possible to forget an Oathgate on the Urithiru side, being right in front of your eyes, is a riddle for me, though. If you lock nine oathgates, why not the tenth just to be on the safe side?

[bo.montier]

On 9/20/2017 at 3:08 PM, Fulminato said:

Navani held up the page. “You’re trying to overlay Stormseat with the Shattered Plains. It’s not going to work unless you have a point of reference.”
“Preferably two,” Shallan said.
“It’s been centuries since that city fell. It was destroyed during Aharietiam itself, I believe. We’re going to have trouble finding clues out here, though your list of descriptions will help.” She tapped her finger against the papers. WoR Chapter 77 "trust"

 

On 9/20/2017 at 2:23 PM, Fulminato said:

i don't have take any assumption on who and why the plain was shattered, but only when.

we know the city fall in the aharietiam, four millenia and half ago the present time. the recreance is two millenia ago (the best guessing). the oathgate don't had any strong real difference in 'crem deposit' with the bulding near of them (the build adolin use for his surprise assault). stormseat was abbandoned no long after the shattering, the city and the oathgate.

On the one hand, you're using Navani as a source, who says that it has been "centuries" since the city fell, and on the other you're saying that it fell 4.5 millennia ago. I'm a little confused as to where you're getting your time-lines. If Navani is wrong about how long it was ago, I don't know how we can trust her being correct that the city fell in aharietiam.

I 100% acknowledge that I may not know the details and you could be dead on, but I always got the sense that the recreance happened shortly after the heralds left, not some 2500 years later. If there were no more desolations, I don't know why the KR would hang around. 

 

Edit: I really mean I just don't know what's going on here. I am only recently really digging deeper into this stuff and am just ignorant of where you got that timeline from. I don't mean to be argumentative :-)

Edited October 5, 2017 by bo.montier

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, bo.montier said:

I 100% acknowledge that I may not know the details and you could be dead on, but I always got the sense that the recreance happened shortly after the heralds left, not some 2500 years later. If there were no more desolations, I don't know why the KR would hang around. 

We don't know exact time lines, but the Recreance, as far as we can figure, is 1750-2250 Rosharan years prior to tWoK. @jofwu has been working on a timeline. 

The only in world book to have survived prior to that, and that only in translation, is The Way of Kings. Other works are only snippets. 

Any assertion about Stormseat having been broken in Aharietiam(sp?) is Vorin Dogma. No one other than the Heralds has knowledge from that far back. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Calderis

[Jofwu he/him]

Relevant WoB is below:

Quote

Argent

In terms of timeline-- So The Way of Kings and The Stormlight Archive takes place 1173-74 right now, how far ago, approximately, was the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

So you-- Let's see-- Heralds leave at what, 4500?

Argent

That's what it says.

Brandon Sanderson

So the Heralds leave at 4500 and we're at 11--

Argent

So we are at 5500 years after--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So Recreance is more recent than late.

Argent

So... In the thousands--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to have to pull out the timeline.

Argent

But it's not like three hundred years ago.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not like three hundred years ago, but it's also not like 4000 years ago.

Argent

Okay, so from the middle--

Brandon Sanderson

The Hierocracy happened after and the Hierocracy was a couple hundred years ago. It's longer than that even, it's like five or six hundred years ago I think.

Footnote

Argent makes a small math mistake here, Aharietiem ended 4,500 years before the events of the book, not 4,500 years before the start of the calendar the Alethi use.

This line:

"Yeah. So Recreance is more recent than late."

I think suggests pretty clearly that the Recreance was on "this side" of the 4500 years. So 2250 years ago max. Probably in the 1500-2000 years ago range.