[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[yulerule]

I had a thought. So in a way Shallan and Kaladin are foils for each other. Kaladin hated all lighteyes, he had a black and white view of the world. Now he is occasionally a lighteyes himself, and he is showing greater understanding. He sees that Roshone is poor, and he is willing to work with him.

As Veil, Shallan discovers what she has been taking for granted. I'm thinking of the passage where she was waiting for a group of people to move aside, then realized they wouldn't for Veil.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

Hmmmm.... Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I'm wondering if the scout who fetched Shallan was actually Vivenna?

She didn't seem TOO overawed by her, more awkward than anything else, she seems to be interested in the magic system and Shardblades, and the possibility of getting one (at least to me) and the fact she seemed disappointed by the fact having one doesn't give an excuse not to be feminine for some reason makes me suspect her.

I dunno, am I being completely crazy and need my tinfoil hat on? Something about he just sticks in my head and makes me wonder....

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Rawrbert said:

Hmmmm.... Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I'm wondering if the scout who fetched Shallan was actually Vivenna?

She didn't seem TOO overawed by her, more awkward than anything else, she seems to be interested in the magic system and Shardblades, and the possibility of getting one (at least to me) and the fact she seemed disappointed by the fact having one doesn't give an excuse not to be feminine for some reason makes me suspect her.

I dunno, am I being completely crazy and need my tinfoil hat on? Something about he just sticks in my head and makes me wonder....

I'm thinking she'll be a little more obvious. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

@maxal

There are actually 11 bones that form the wrist: the eight carpals (small bones that form the sliding joint), the ends of the radius and ulna (the lower arm bones), the meta carpus (the base of the hand). The eight carpals are what we typically refer to as the wrist.

Odds are your daughter broke the two arm bones where they meet the wrist. Alternatively, she broke the Scaphoid bone, but the arm is not usually immobilized in that case. Do you know which bones she broke? I find it odd that the doctor told you there are two bones in the wrist, as this is clearly inaccurate.

 Adolin may have broken his carpals. If untreated this can cause permanent disability. Specifically, I think Adolin has a Lunate fracture. 

Lunate fractures are caused by direct blows to the wrist. If untreated the bone continues to break, ultimately leading to its collapse. If I'm right, Adolin has been continually rebreaking his wrist every time he moves. This can lead to Kienbock's disease; the constant pain and weakness in the wrist may be indicative of that.

In general the wrist is prone to reinjury, as it is very hard to avoid moving it (which is why the whole arm is sometimes imobilized.) Because of the tight ligaments binding the wrist together, it is very possible that those have been damaged as well. Depending on how far the damage progresses before the wrist is properly cared for Adolin may need the bone replaced. Do they do bone replacements on Roshar?

The other major possibility is carpal dislocation. It more commonly occurs when the wrist is fractured, but is uncommon regardless. The blow Adolin took could have caused it though. This typically requires surgery to fix, but can be easily missed when diagnosing the injury. It is typically diagnosed via X-ray. It can be a source of chronic pain. Even with rapid treatment loss of grip strength and chronic pain often results. There may also be other damage.

Long story short, the wrist is REALLY complicated. And has WAY more than two bones (which I had to memorize for an anatomy test! The ankle is nowhere near as complicated!) For the record: Hamate, Scaphoid, Trapezium, Pisiform, Lunate, Triquetrum, Capitate, and Trapezoid bones. I did not bother putting these in order. The ulna and radius border one end; the meta carpus borders the other.

The wrist has some of the smallest bones in the body and is one of four sliding joints (2 wrists and 2 ankles.) The eight carpals are tightly bound together with ligaments. It is one of the most commonly injured parts of the body, but fractures are uncommon and dislocations are rare.  The Scaphoid is the bone most commonly broken. 

If you suspect a broken wrist an X-ray and a CT scan should be performed. Due to its complex nature wrist fractures may fail to appear on X-rays.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Duke of Lizards she/her]

15 hours ago, Silarn said:

On a separate note, I don't think many people have commented on Syl's change of appearance yet. I'm wondering if this has to do with Identity. As Kaladin and Syl bond more closely and speaks more oaths, is Syl gaining more of his Identity and thinking of herself as Alethi? Before now, we haven't seen any indication that she cared a whit about Alethi mores and customs, but here she is donning Alethi garb and covering her safehand. Something she apparently put a lot of thought into - though she could always be pulling Kal's leg, I suppose.

Syl's Havah would not necessarily mean she identifies as Alethi because it is generally Vorin.  Shallan wears the same attire and she is from Jah Kaved.  I find it very interesting that Syl has taken this form because Kaladin is seen as agnostic, or not very religious, at least.  

[scifan he/him]

What I remember is that Adolin's blade was knocked to the side and he audibly heard the snap in his wrist... unsure about something like that...

I think my kids are somewhat injury prone as all 3 have broken their wrists at some point and I know that they weren't very happy ANY of the times it happened... though a wrist fracture doesn't seem as bad as breaking an arm above the elbow... (son was pretending to "wrestle" on the trampoline... that required surgery and pins to fix)...

Doesn't sound enjoyable... 

 

I keep feeling like things are headed down for Adolin... that he has a bunch of pain and sorrow in his future...

[Nef]

16 hours ago, Silarn said:

On a separate note, I don't think many people have commented on Syl's change of appearance yet. I'm wondering if this has to do with Identity. As Kaladin and Syl bond more closely and speaks more oaths, is Syl gaining more of his Identity and thinking of herself as Alethi? Before now, we haven't seen any indication that she cared a whit about Alethi mores and customs, but here she is donning Alethi garb and covering her safehand. Something she apparently put a lot of thought into - though she could always be pulling Kal's leg, I suppose.

That part where Syl mentions how long she thought about her dress intrigued me as well. I think she was about to say something very interesting before she was distracted.

My guess; she was about to innocently embarrass Kaladin by saying something along the lines of, "I spent positively hours thinking of just how to replicate the look of that red haired girl you can't stop looking at" 

[DSC01 he/him]

@maxal I see your point about Ialai using copycat murders to draw out the killer, but I don't think that is what is going on, myself. Devious people tend to see everyone else as either devious or foolish. She views Dalinar's honorable principles as foolish, but I think that she would also believe that those principles preclude murdering an inconvenient person. Using copycat murders to draw out the original murderer depends on them having a sense of honor that compels them to go public. I would think that Ialai suspects someone who is more devious than honorable (or, in her thinking, foolish), so whoever she thinks is responsible, I doubt that she suspects Dalinar or his immediate family.

Given that the second murder was specifically someone from a princedom allied with Kholin, and that the victim does not seem to be anyone of particular political significance, this second murder would seem to point to a random psychotic killer. That, to me, points to a secret society that wants Dalinar in control and does't mind getting their hands dirty to achieve that. Sadeas being murdered casts suspicion on Kholin, but a random Kholin ally then being murdered by the same person (apparently) defuses that suspicion.

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

17 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Using copycat murders to draw out the original murderer depends on them having a sense of honor that compels them to go public.

This ^^. Shaking up the murderer with repeated copycats would only affect them if they had a conscience to begin with. Some like Mraize would smile and say, how fun. The only way the theory "copycats are done to shake up Adolin" is if the person doing it is over 90% sure it was Adolin. Most assasins, and people sending assasins (imagine Jasnah), wouldn't give a chull's worth whether someone was imitating them. Reason why Adolin may be so hard to catch (if he can keep his cool, which is a big if) is that he is at the bottom of people you suspect to assasinate. Demanding a duel, screaming accross a hall, thats what you expect from him. Not stabbing blade to eye, then hiding his involvement.

[The Invested Beard]

Why not just a freaky psychopath that sees an opportunity to pass off their killings on someone else by copying the method of a previous murder? Once someone solves the original murder they may be hoping the rest will be pinned on the original murderer.

Edited September 14, 2017 by The Invested Beard

[+eveorjoy she/her]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Depending on how far the damage progresses before the wrist is properly cared for Adolin may need the bone replaced. Do they do bone replacements on Roshar?

1

The surge Progression has the healing power of regrowth. Lift knows how to use this power and Renarin should learn how to use it in time. A Truthwatcher or Edgedancer could help Adolin fix the wrist. However, he is out of luck for the time being, unless Renarin is a quick study.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

28 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Why not just a freaky psychopath that sees an opportunity to pass off their killings on someone else by copying the method of a previous murder? Once someone solves the original murder they may be hoping the rest will be pinned on the original murderer.

Thats also good option. As most people would assume the murder of a highprince would be the main focus of the investigation. But if thats their reasoning they really fell into a pit considering who is in charge of the investigation.  Fun times. Adolin is in a good position to hide any possible evidence he left behind though, if he left any. Hmm, also realized a good alternative he could tell the truth to, to get help is Bridge 4, at least the ones he is close to. They hated Sadeas as much if not more than him.

Edited September 14, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Salkara]

23 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The only way the theory "copycats are done to shake up Adolin" is if the person doing it is over 90% sure it was Adolin.

I disagree, but only in part. They could also be reasonably certain they can pin the murder(s) on Adolin whether or not he murdered Sadeas.

I've seen a lot people indicate there's no evidence to pin the murder on Adolin. There is some circumstantial evidence, though.

1. Adolin scraped his chalk markings off the wall with his shardblade. We've seen instances where people immediately recognized damage from a shardblade, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that someone noticed the missing bits of wall and realized that Sadeas was killed by shardbearer. That doesn't mean they know Adolin did it, but there aren't that many shardbearers.
2. He dropped Oathbringer out the window (which I guess is the Roshar equivalent of tossing a gun into a dumpster). We're presuming nobody noticed that, but I wouldn't say that's a given. Someone could've seen or heard. More telling, though, is that someone killed a shardbearer but didn't try to keep the shardblade. That narrows down the pool of suspects quite a bit. Probably means the murderer already has a shardblade, and again, there aren't many shardbearers.
3. His cuffs were bloodied. He did cut them off, but what happened to them afterward? It's entirely possible someone noticed they were missing (Adolin is known to be quite a slave to fashion, so it may be remarkable that he had a shirt without cuffs) and went on a hunt to find them.

None of these are enough to convict Adolin; however, they could be enough to make him appear culpable to others. Sometimes it matters more what people think you did than what you actually did.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

3 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I disagree, but only in part. They could also be reasonably certain they can pin the murder(s) on Adolin whether or not he murdered Sadeas.

I've seen a lot people indicate there's no evidence to pin the murder on Adolin. There is some circumstantial evidence, though.

1. Adolin scraped his chalk markings off the wall with his shardblade. We've seen instances where people immediately recognized damage from a shardblade, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that someone noticed the missing bits of wall and realized that Sadeas was killed by shardbearer. That doesn't mean they know Adolin did it, but there aren't that many shardbearers.
2. He dropped Oathbringer out the window (which I guess is the Roshar equivalent of tossing a gun into a dumpster). We're presuming nobody noticed that, but I wouldn't say that's a given. Someone could've seen or heard. More telling, though, is that someone killed a shardbearer but didn't try to keep the shardblade. That narrows down the pool of suspects quite a bit. Probably means the murderer already has a shardblade, and again, there aren't many shardbearers.
3. His cuffs were bloodied. He did cut them off, but what happened to them afterward? It's entirely possible someone noticed they were missing (Adolin is known to be quite a slave to fashion, so it may be remarkable that he had a shirt without cuffs) and went on a hunt to find them.

None of these are enough to convict Adolin; however, they could be enough to make him appear culpable to others. Sometimes it matters more what people think you did than what you actually did.

Not bad reasoning. But 1 can be ignored as they could have used Oathbringer to scrape the mark.

In any case, pinning the murder on Adolin is not the same as shaking him up. As he would only act strangely if he did it.

[Salkara]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

In any case, pinning the murder on Adolin is not the same as shaking him up. As he would only act strangely if he did it.

Maybe the point isn't to shake him up. Maybe it's just to pin the murder (and subsequent copycat murders) on him. My personal theory is Ialai is using this as a way to isolate Dalinar. We'll see though. Only 118 hours and 20 minutes until the next chapter release.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I don't think Ialai did it. But if she did...damnation thats a cold-hearted witch, less than 3 days since her husband died and already scheming and plotting. 

[OrangeJedi he/him]

21 hours ago, frozndevl said:

The general consensus (if we can call it that at this point) is that this is something specific to the Bondsmiths, and not something that would happen whenever two (KRs ) get together.

 

21 hours ago, Rider of Storms said:

I will add that it could be possible in groups as long as a Bondsmith is present to set it in motion.

So my latest idea with the map is that Bondsmiths can "link" KRs and they can share/improve surges (similar to channeling and linking in Wheel of Time). Could this mean that with the help of a Bondsmith multiple KRs can share skills/surges/stormlight and accomplish crazy/cool things that use 3+ surges, or use someone else knowledge to power another's surge (the map)?

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

12 minutes ago, OrangeJedi said:

 

So my latest idea with the map is that Bondsmiths can "link" KRs and they can share/improve surges (similar to channeling and linking in Wheel of Time). Could this mean that with the help of a Bondsmith multiple KRs can share skills/surges/stormlight and accomplish crazy/cool things that use 3+ surges, or use someone else knowledge to power another's surge (the map)?

So, continuing your WoT analogy, the Bondsmiths would be the women and the other 9 orders the men? That sounds interesting, but if it is the case I suspect there would be some hard limits very fast. Otherwise it would be insanely powerful. What I'd be curious to know if it were true, is who would be in control of the "link" and whether Bondsmiths could do it against someone's will.

[DSC01 he/him]

3 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

...whether Bondsmiths could do it against someone's will.

Sure, they just need to score an a'dam.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

This ^^. Shaking up the murderer with repeated copycats would only affect them if they had a conscience to begin with. Some like Mraize would smile and say, how fun. The only way the theory "copycats are done to shake up Adolin" is if the person doing it is over 90% sure it was Adolin. Most assasins, and people sending assasins (imagine Jasnah), wouldn't give a chull's worth whether someone was imitating them. Reason why Adolin may be so hard to catch (if he can keep his cool, which is a big if) is that he is at the bottom of people you suspect to assasinate. Demanding a duel, screaming accross a hall, thats what you expect from him. Not stabbing blade to eye, then hiding his involvement.

I posted my detailed thinking in this post in the other thread about "Who's the Copycat Murderer?", but it boils down to this:

- The killer either saw Sadeas' murder as it happened, or didn't see it happen, but was there to see the body before it was moved. It can't be "some random serial killer latching on to the MO to mask his thrill kills", unless someone in Bridge Four or Sadeas' guard corps just went off the rails for no reason, and Brandon Sanderson is not that kind of writer.

- If the killer saw Sadeas' murder (and therefore knows it was Adolin), Ialai is not behind the second murder, because she'd be focused on getting justice for her husband, plus it would be an immediate takedown of Dalinar's standing. That leaves Mraize, or possibly, a member of Bridge Four who is trying to shield Adolin, but also willing to commit cold-blooded murder of an ally, which doesn't seem very Bridge Four-ish (the whole "Windrunner Squire" bit would kind of fall down, yeah?). So, that would pretty much mean Mraize.

- If the killer did NOT see the murder, and we rule out Bridge Four's ability to do precise and cold-blooded ally-murdering, it would mean a trained assassin was among Sadeas' guards (not unlikely, really), and that the killer does NOT know who Sadeas' killer was. The most likely scenario in this case: Ialai ordered the Second Murder as (a) a reprisal killing and message to The Other Team that We Are Not Done, and (b) a way to see who from Dalinar's side is acting in a way that suggests they also know the two murders were not, in fact, done by the same person.

Because only two people would know that, right? The one responsible for Murder #1 (Sadeas), and the one responsible for Murder #2 (Ialai and her agent). Everybody else would assume - is assuming - that it was the same killer.

And uh-oh. Adolin isn't very good as dissembling.

[Elena she/her]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

He dropped Oathbringer out the window (which I guess is the Roshar equivalent of tossing a gun into a dumpster). We're presuming nobody noticed that, but I wouldn't say that's a given. Someone could've seen or heard. More telling, though, is that someone killed a shardbearer but didn't try to keep the shardblade. That narrows down the pool of suspects quite a bit. Probably means the murderer already has a shardblade, and again, there aren't many shardbearers.

I think this might contradict Brandon's statement that there are no witnesses to the murder. Seeing Adolin throw Sadeas's Shardblade out of a window means someone saw him on the crime scene, which we know didn't happen as per WOB.

eta:

@robardinthere's a WOB getting quoted pretty often on tor.com that states that there were no witnesses. And even if someone suspected Adolin, it seems pretty unlikely that people would believe Known Good Guy Adolin went around randomly knifing people on his own side. Definitely agreed with @dsc01  above, as things stand a murder spree is likely to boost Dalinar's standing more than anything.

 

4 hours ago, Duke of Lizards said:

Syl's Havah would not necessarily mean she identifies as Alethi because it is generally Vorin.  Shallan wears the same attire and she is from Jah Kaved.  I find it very interesting that Syl has taken this form because Kaladin is seen as agnostic, or not very religious, at least.  

Yes but he's still Vorin - he might be agnostic but he doesn't read, still sees safehands as forbidden and they make him uncomfortable. These things go much further than religious creed; it's cultural and deeply rooted. I don't think Syl wearing Vorin attire means anything different than it being Kaladin's culture.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Elena

[+robardin he/him]

10 minutes ago, Elena said:

 

@robardin there's a WOB getting quoted pretty often on tor.com that states that there were no witnesses.

That's a bombshell and a half to me. Whoa.

 

[Salkara]

1 minute ago, Elena said:

I think this might contradict Brandon's statement that there are no witnesses to the murder. Seeing Adolin throw Sadeas's Shardblade out of a window means someone saw him on the crime scene, which we know didn't happen as per WOB.

First, nobody would have to see the murder in order to see or hear a blade get dropped from above them. The actual quote is

Quote

He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there.

It's possible someone on the terrace saw or heard it drop, and went to investigate. It's not like Shardblades fall out of the sky everyday.

Second, and more importantly, Adolin didn't take Oathbringer with him. Shardblades are incredibly rare and valuable, grant immediate elevation to the 4th dahn, and are godlike weapons. The fact that the Oathbringer wasn't taken indicates that whoever murdered Sadeas doesn't need or want a Shardblade. That reduces the pool of suspects to Shardbearers. It says that Sadeas was definitely not murdered for his Shardblade.

[Jaconis]

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

No, lighteyes eyes are already light, so a Nahel bond doesn't change them. WoB on this. Maybe the masters of WoBs can find it...

I'm not saying making them light. I'm talking about their color specifically. I don't have books or references handy, but Kaladin's eyes weren't dark blue before, but when he summons Syl they turn light blue now. Shallan's eyes should turn ruby colored if the pattern continues. 

[Elena she/her]

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

That's a bombshell and a half to me. Whoa.

 

The actual quote (in the comments to last week's chapters is)

Quote

someone asked Brandon if Dalinar will punish Adolin, to which he answered: Dalinar does not know, nobody knows, but he would if he did.

@salkara I'm taking that 'nobody knows' to mean that nobody, as of chapter 1 of OB knows that Adolin is the killer, which includes having seen him with Sadeas's blade the day he was murdered. Someone may have heard and went to investigate (I find it unlikely, contrived, and only means the killer didn't want Sadeas's very famous Blade, not that they have one of their own) but probably nobody saw Adolin throwing it.