Members of the new Knights Radiant.

[Ansalem]

Yes, but I didn't say Nightblood is an Honorblade, I said it was like an Honorblade in some ways.

Nalan saying Szeth is worthy of being a Skybreaker does not make him one. A Skybreaker is a KR that has bonded a highspren and spoken the oaths of the Skybreakers thereby gaining the surges of Gravitation and Division. Nightblood is not a highspren, Szeth will not have to speak those oaths in order to bond Nightblood, and bonding him will not give him the surges of Gravitation and Division. Bonding Nightblood may or may not grant Szeth certain powers, but they will be different from Skybreaker powers. Anyone can bond an Honorblade without needing to speak any oaths, anyone (theoretically) can bond Nightblood without needing to speak any oaths.

If Szeth becomes a Skybreaker it will not be from bonding Nightblood. Szeth hasn't met any of the requirements to become a Skybreaker yet. He might in the future, though.

[Fulminato]

9 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

Yes, but I didn't say Nightblood is an Honorblade, I said it was like an Honorblade in some ways.

Nalan saying Szeth is worthy of being a Skybreaker does not make him one. A Skybreaker is a KR that has bonded a highspren and spoken the oaths of the Skybreakers thereby gaining the surges of Gravitation and Division. Nightblood is not a highspren, Szeth will not have to speak those oaths in order to bond Nightblood, and bonding him will not give him the surges of Gravitation and Division. Bonding Nightblood may or may not grant Szeth certain powers, but they will be different from Skybreaker powers. Anyone can bond an Honorblade without needing to speak any oaths, anyone (theoretically) can bond Nightblood without needing to speak any oaths.

If Szeth becomes a Skybreaker it will not be from bonding Nightblood. Szeth hasn't met any of the requirements to become a Skybreaker yet. He might in the future, though.

a sapient blade is more likely a piece of power shaped like a blade or a sapient piece of power how can take the shape of a blade?

kaladin show some surgebind ability long before spoke the first oath (all the arrow him deflect to the bridge and thus saving his life or the sphere him drained during the highstorm). if nalan (a immortal demigod and patron of skybreaker) call szeth a 'skybreaker in training' and give him a 'shardblade' (and we know very well how shardblade and spren are tied) i suppose can call him a skybreaker and nightblood is a good repleace for an highspreen

Edited September 8, 2017 by Fulminato

[Ansalem]

Just now, Fulminato said:

a sapient blade is more likely a piece of power or a sapient piece of power?

kaladin show some surgebind ability long before spoke the first oath (all the arrow him deflect to the bridge and thus saving his life or the sphere him drained during the highstorm). if nalan (a immortal demigod and patron of skybreaker) call szeth a 'skybreaker in training' and give him a 'shardblade' (and we know very well how shardblade and spren are tied) i suppose can call him a skybreaker and nightblood is a good repleace for an highspreen

You're misunderstanding everything I'm saying.

[Reaperess]

6 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

a sapient blade is more likely a piece of power shaped like a blade or a sapient piece of power how can take the shape of a blade?

kaladin show some surgebind ability long before spoke the first oath (all the arrow him deflect to the bridge and thus saving his life or the sphere him drained during the highstorm). if nalan (a immortal demigod and patron of skybreaker) call szeth a 'skybreaker in training' and give him a 'shardblade' (and we know very well how shardblade and spren are tied) i suppose can call him a skybreaker and nightblood is a good repleace for an highspreen

The problem with that is that Kaladin had those powers because Syl was bonding with him, even without the words. Without a proper spren Szeth can't gain the powers associated with the order. At least as far as I know. He may yet attract one, but until he does I don't see how he could gain those abilities, no matter how qualified his persona is.

[Fulminato]

11 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

You're misunderstanding everything I'm saying.

i undestand wery well, this is the problem. labels can be useful, but never think the label is more important of the thingh is labeled.

yes a normal skybreaker is a roshan bonded to an highspren trough the character and temperament first and the oath after. but if sanderson said 'vash creatating nighblood was mimic a shardblade' the herald of justice call szeth 'his student for a skybreaker traning' i think is enough to label szeth a skybreaker. obviusly nightblood isn't a normal spren and the bond with szeth is different from a normal skybreaker bond, but the similarities are far more of the difference.

2 minutes ago, Reaperess said:

The problem with that is that Kaladin had those powers because Syl was bonding with him, even without the words. Without a proper spren Szeth can't gain the powers associated with the order. At least as far as I know. He may yet attract one, but until he does I don't see how he could gain those abilities, no matter how qualified his persona is.

do you had read egdedancer?

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Fulminato said:

do you had read egdedancer?

Szeth uses no surges in Edgedancer.

Spoiler

The other Skybreakers attitudes towards him are almost mocking, like "keep up, poser" 

What happens in Edgedancer that changes anything in the post you quoted? 

[maxal]

On 9/7/2017 at 1:20 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

You might want to change this, even though it is pretty funny.

A common theory is that Adolin will revive his Shardblade, which is confirmed to have belonged to an Edgedancer. Adolin becoming an Edgedancer is thus a popular idea, and quite likely too, I think. I think Dustbringers feel more interesting than Edgedancers, so I would like to see Adolin as one, but I do think that an Edgedancer is more likely. 

I feel I may be one of the only ones who think the opposite. I do not find Adolin as a Dustbringer remotely as interesting as him as an Edgedancer. I even find it... boring. I'd rather he remained powerless than seeing him become a Dustbringer.

[Toaster Retribution]

40 minutes ago, maxal said:

I feel I may be one of the only ones who think the opposite. I do not find Adolin as a Dustbringer remotely as interesting as him as an Edgedancer. I even find it... boring. I'd rather he remained powerless than seeing him become a Dustbringer.

Why? Dustbringers seems awesome!

[maxal]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

Why? Dustbringers seems awesome!

Because I feel it doesn't give Adolin's character interesting growth nor progression. How is it interesting to have Adolin learn how to be more brave and more obedient? He's already those things. How is it interesting to turn him into a battlefield powerhouse when he already stated he wasn't really enjoying the whole warfare thing (he does it out of need, not out of desire)? At times, I feel readers root for the Dustbringer idea because they feel it would be a nice extension to what Adolin's character has currently been. I am more interested into what he could be instead.

[Toaster Retribution]

33 minutes ago, maxal said:

Because I feel it doesn't give Adolin's character interesting growth nor progression. How is it interesting to have Adolin learn how to be more brave and more obedient? He's already those things. How is it interesting to turn him into a battlefield powerhouse when he already stated he wasn't really enjoying the whole warfare thing (he does it out of need, not out of desire)? At times, I feel readers root for the Dustbringer idea because they feel it would be a nice extension to what Adolin's character has currently been. I am more interested into what he could be instead.

Fair enough. Out of interest, is there a character you think would make an interesting Dustbringer?

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Fair enough. Out of interest, is there a character you think would make an interesting Dustbringer?

Well yes quite a few: Moash, Rysn and Reddin spontaneously come to mind.

Edit: I am currently looking at how Kaladin needs to progress as a leader, to become more assertive, to accept his powers and the responsibility which comes with them. I then try to figure out what it would mean for Adolin to progress towards obedience... How could he ever be more obedient then he already is? Where is the growth? How is it interesting to have Adolin accept orders more readily then he is already doing? I feel his progression ought to be the opposite.

Moash however...

Edited September 9, 2017 by maxal

[maxal]

Alright. I will apologize right away for the double-posting, but I was pondering about the Dustbringer issue while doing my afternoon run and I came out with an idea, a theory. The more I think about it, the more I like it.

For the get going, I will say the Dustbringers remain a nebulous order: we aren't quite sure what characteristics or personality traits they are looking for into proto-knights. Of course, they were said to be "brave" and "obedient" which means we can expect the growth of a Dustbringer to pass by affirming those traits in a more fulsome manner, but what kind of individuals are they more likely to bond in the first place? From the Elsecallers, we know it may not be as straight-forward as choosing someone merely being brave as instead of merely looking for "wise" individuals, Elsecallers are on the look out for "able to rationally think without emotions". Hence, it isn't as obvious as it seems which is why I think we may be making false route in saying: "Adolin (or anyone else) is brave, he ought to be a Dustringer".

I will thus leave let this topic to rest: we simply do not know.

Instead, I will focus onto which character a progression implying becoming "brave" and "obedient" in a stronger manner is actually both relevant and interesting.

Surprising the twists and turns a mind may make while casually doing the easy run... as I ended thinking Elhokar would be a good candidate. Yes, you heard me, Elhokar.

Why?

I have read a lot of comments from various posters arguing Elhokar's character progression necessarily implies him learning how to become a stronger leader, a better king, perhaps not a great one, but an apt one. The opposing side of the argument generally has him take a turn for the worst while an in-between team somewhat root for him to become a Lightweaver. Except Lightweavers do not strike me as neither a good nor an interesting pick: Elhokar seems quite aware of his own failings, just reluctant to do something about it. I also fail to see what it would add to the story, but Dustbringer...

What if Elhokar's character progression doesn't pass through him either becoming an antagonist or becoming a good leader? After all, truth is not everyone is cut out to be a leader and all the work and the good will in the world may never turn Elhokar into a charismatic leader inspiring respect. I really do not see those qualities blossoming out of thin air, especially not with Elhokar's intimate wish to be seen as both glorious and heroic. Therefore, what if Elhokar's greatest decision ought to be to... step down from the throne, to allow those who are better than him at ruling to actually rule, to admit he simply does not have it and what if by doing so, he actually gives him the room he lacked to finally grow?

I mean, Elhokar is paranoid, he fears assassins within the shadows, he doesn't seem particularly brave, but really most of these issues he has comes from the fact his father was assassinate for no reason he can understand. Hence, he fears it will happen to him, but if he steps down... then he does not have to fear assassins anymore. What if removing this thread allows him to find his courage and to start the long trek towards becoming... something else. 

What better character than Elhokar to learn how to be more brave and to grow into becoming obedient? Obedient because he sucks at decision-making, but he may be very good at following orders, once he gets out of his head God wants him to be in charge. Now wouldn't it be interesting if by abdicating, if by allowing his uncle to take over, if by stopping trying to be something he will never be, Elhokar actually becomes something he can be, a deadly Dustbringer and, oddly enough, the hero he yearned to become? And he could be great in this role: clearly he wants to fight, we see it at the chamsfiend hunt, but he is so stuck up into being a king, he can never really let this side of him shine. Surely he was trained, his father was talented, his uncle is talented, his cousin is talented: Elhokar has to have some skill.

I say, let's root for a more out-of-the-box character progression here and have an unlikely pick evolve into becoming this "brave" and "obedient" terrifying Dustbringer. So I have to ask again, how about Elhokar as a Dustbringer?

Edited September 9, 2017 by maxal

[Hero-of-Pages]

28 minutes ago, maxal said:

Alright. I will apologize right away for the double-posting, but I was pondering about the Dustbringer issue while doing my afternoon run and I came out with an idea, a theory. The more I think about it, the more I like it.

For the get going, I will say the Dustbringers remain a nebulous order: we aren't quite sure what characteristics or personality traits they are looking for into proto-knights. Of course, they were said to be "brave" and "obedient" which means we can expect the growth of a Dustbringer to pass by affirming those traits in a more fulsome manner, but what kind of individuals are they more likely to bond in the first place? From the Elsecallers, we know it may not be as straight-forward as choosing someone merely being brave as instead of merely looking for "wise" individuals, Elsecallers are on the look out for "able to rationally think without emotions". Hence, it isn't as obvious as it seems which is why I think we may be making false route in saying: "Adolin (or anyone else) is brave, he ought to be a Dustringer".

I will thus leave let this topic to rest: we simply do not know.

Instead, I will focus onto which character a progression implying becoming "brave" and "obedient" in a stronger manner is actually both relevant and interesting.

Surprising the twists and turns a mind may make while casually doing the easy run... as I ended thinking Elhokar would be a good candidate. Yes, you heard me, Elhokar.

Why?

I have read a lot of comments from various posters arguing Elhokar's character progression necessarily implies him learning how to become a stronger leader, a better king, perhaps not a great one, but an apt one. The opposing side of the argument generally has him take a turn for the worst while an in-between team somewhat root for him to become a Lightweaver. Except Lightweavers do not strike me as neither a good nor an interesting pick: Elhokar seems quite aware of his own failings, just reluctant to do something about it. I also fail to see what it would add to the story, but Dustbringer...

What if Elhokar's character progression doesn't pass through him either becoming an antagonist or becoming a good leader? After all, truth is not everyone is cut out to be a leader and all the work and the good will in the world may never turn Elhokar into a charismatic leader inspiring respect. I really do not see those qualities blossoming out of thin air, especially not with Elhokar's intimate wish to be seen as both glorious and heroic. Therefore, what if Elhokar's greatest decision ought to be to... step down from the throne, to allow those who are better than him at ruling to actually rule, to admit he simply does not have it and what if by doing so, he actually gives him the room he lacked to finally grow?

I mean, Elhokar is paranoid, he fears assassins within the shadows, he doesn't seem particularly brave, but really most of these issues he has comes from the fact his father was assassinate for no reason he can understand. Hence, he fears it will happen to him, but if he steps down... then he does not have to fear assassins anymore. What if removing this thread allows him to find his courage and to start the long trek towards becoming... something else. 

What better character than Elhokar to learn how to be more brave and to grow into becoming obedient. Obedient because he sucks at decision-making, but he may be very good at following orders, once he gets out of his head God wants him to be in charge. Now wouldn't it be interesting if by abdicating, if by allowing his uncle to take over, if by stopping trying to be something he will never be, Elhokar actually becomes something he can be, a deadly Dustbringer and, oddly enough, the hero he yearned to become. And he could be great in this role: clearly he wants to fight, we see it at the chamsfiend hunt, but he is so stuck up into being a king, he can never really let this side of him shine. Surely he was trained, his father was talented, his uncle is talented, his cousin is talented: Elhokar has to have some skill.

I say, let's root for a more out-of-the-box character progression here and have an unlikely pick evolve into becoming this "brave" and "obedient" terrifying Dustbringer. So I have to ask again, how about Elhokar as a Dustbringer?

I like this theory. Elhokar is an interesting character for me, because I personally am really invested in what will happen to him, but at the same time no theories I have come across or thought of have really felt satisfying. This is one I can get behind.

 

Its logical, but also defies audience expectation. Good work! I'm not sure how exactly it would be implemented, but its what I think I will be rooting for.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Nice theory @maxal

A problem that I foresee with the Alethi throne is that none of the people in line for it will make for very good kings. Dalinar, okay, he would be good but we've mentioned many times how to unite Roshar he would have to leave behind some Alethi things, including the titles. Besides, he is 50+ years old, he can't rule forever. Adolin might be a great commander of the armies, but not sure how he would do as king...not too well I suspect. Renarin, also doesn't seem king material. Elhokar's son is a baby. And considering the wonderful things both his parents do I'd be skeptical at how the poor kid would grow up.

The biggest issue with the Dustbringer theory for Ehokar is that it fully caps every single Kholin as Radiant. 

Szeth is quite unusual, and I suspect we will not be able to guess what is going on with him until we see it, as he breaks nearly all the rules. Also...are there any skybreakers still alive?

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Nice theory @maxal

A problem that I foresee with the Alethi throne is that none of the people in line for it will make for very good kings. Dalinar, okay, he would be good but we've mentioned many times how to unite Roshar he would have to leave behind some Alethi things, including the titles. Besides, he is 50+ years old, he can't rule forever. Adolin might be a great commander of the armies, but not sure how he would do as king...not too well I suspect. Renarin, also doesn't seem king material. Elhokar's son is a baby. And considering the wonderful things both his parents do I'd be skeptical at how the poor kid would grow up.

The biggest issue with the Dustbringer theory for Ehokar is that it fully caps every single Kholin as Radiant. 

Szeth is quite unusual, and I suspect we will not be able to guess what is going on with him until we see it, as he breaks nearly all the rules. Also...are there any skybreakers still alive?

Thanks 

I am in for any theory yielding what I consider to be the best possible character development and if this character development implies "Radiant", I will not back from it because said character's last name is Kholin. I have had this stance over and over again with Adolin, I will have it with Elhokar too. I never were completely against him becoming a Radiant, I merely never liked all suggested theories, I didn't find it gave coherent nor enthralling character development, not until I had this idea. Amazing the stuff which pours through one's head while running, I swear my legs were dead, I am dead tired (note to self: go to bed at an earlier hour (futile attempt), training demands sleep) and I pestered the whole time: it made me think of Elhokar 

When it comes to succession, I was thinking perhaps, just perhaps, having Elhokar step down and offer the position to the best possible man might, just might enable the birth of something more akin to democracy. In shorts, the direct heir may not inherit the throne: it might always go to the next best possible individual and within the Kholins, as much as I hate it, after Dalinar, Adolin is the next best choice. I think he'd make a great king, once he matures more, but I really hate him within this position, so it does not bother me at all if he is skipped, especially since I suspect he will get disinherit.

As for Szeth, I am not seeing how the progression towards "brave" and "obedient" is relevant to his character. He seems more likely to keep on looking for his "higher law", his "better law" than to become even more obedient then he has been. He wants a guideline: this is very strong into his character, but I don't think he wants it tied to anyone, so really I am not seeing it.

I suspect there are other living Skybreakers.

[Fulminato]

On 9/9/2017 at 0:19 AM, Calderis said:

Szeth uses no surges in Edgedancer.

  Reveal hidden contents

The other Skybreakers attitudes towards him are almost mocking, like "keep up, poser" 

What happens in Edgedancer that changes anything in the post you quoted? 

 

“Coming, assassin?” The woman looked down toward the landing and the man wearing white. “I’ve danced that storm once before,” he whispered. “On the day I died. No.” “You’re never going to make it into the order at this rate.”

 “But you,” the thing said, “did not come for a contest, did you? We watch the others. The assassin. The surgeon. The liar. The highprince. But not you. The others all ignore you … and that, I hazard to predict, is a mistake.”

“And I confess, I am the wrong one to ask. My siblings are more interested in you Radiants. If you ever encounter another of the Sleepless, tell them you’ve spoken with Arclo. I’m certain it will gain you sympathy.”

i don't see many other conclusion.

EDIT: i forgot a quote from WotK "You’re one of the Radiants,” Skar said, pointing. “I believe it, even if Teft says you aren’t.”
“He isn’t yet,” Teft snapped. “Don’t you listen?"

Edited September 10, 2017 by Fulminato

[Toaster Retribution]

@maxal I am in agreement with you about Elhokar.

[Nathrangking]

15 hours ago, maxal said:

Alright. I will apologize right away for the double-posting, but I was pondering about the Dustbringer issue while doing my afternoon run and I came out with an idea, a theory. The more I think about it, the more I like it.

For the get going, I will say the Dustbringers remain a nebulous order: we aren't quite sure what characteristics or personality traits they are looking for into proto-knights. Of course, they were said to be "brave" and "obedient" which means we can expect the growth of a Dustbringer to pass by affirming those traits in a more fulsome manner, but what kind of individuals are they more likely to bond in the first place? From the Elsecallers, we know it may not be as straight-forward as choosing someone merely being brave as instead of merely looking for "wise" individuals, Elsecallers are on the look out for "able to rationally think without emotions". Hence, it isn't as obvious as it seems which is why I think we may be making false route in saying: "Adolin (or anyone else) is brave, he ought to be a Dustringer".

I will thus leave let this topic to rest: we simply do not know.

Instead, I will focus onto which character a progression implying becoming "brave" and "obedient" in a stronger manner is actually both relevant and interesting.

Surprising the twists and turns a mind may make while casually doing the easy run... as I ended thinking Elhokar would be a good candidate. Yes, you heard me, Elhokar.

Why?

I have read a lot of comments from various posters arguing Elhokar's character progression necessarily implies him learning how to become a stronger leader, a better king, perhaps not a great one, but an apt one. The opposing side of the argument generally has him take a turn for the worst while an in-between team somewhat root for him to become a Lightweaver. Except Lightweavers do not strike me as neither a good nor an interesting pick: Elhokar seems quite aware of his own failings, just reluctant to do something about it. I also fail to see what it would add to the story, but Dustbringer...

What if Elhokar's character progression doesn't pass through him either becoming an antagonist or becoming a good leader? After all, truth is not everyone is cut out to be a leader and all the work and the good will in the world may never turn Elhokar into a charismatic leader inspiring respect. I really do not see those qualities blossoming out of thin air, especially not with Elhokar's intimate wish to be seen as both glorious and heroic. Therefore, what if Elhokar's greatest decision ought to be to... step down from the throne, to allow those who are better than him at ruling to actually rule, to admit he simply does not have it and what if by doing so, he actually gives him the room he lacked to finally grow?

I mean, Elhokar is paranoid, he fears assassins within the shadows, he doesn't seem particularly brave, but really most of these issues he has comes from the fact his father was assassinate for no reason he can understand. Hence, he fears it will happen to him, but if he steps down... then he does not have to fear assassins anymore. What if removing this thread allows him to find his courage and to start the long trek towards becoming... something else. 

What better character than Elhokar to learn how to be more brave and to grow into becoming obedient? Obedient because he sucks at decision-making, but he may be very good at following orders, once he gets out of his head God wants him to be in charge. Now wouldn't it be interesting if by abdicating, if by allowing his uncle to take over, if by stopping trying to be something he will never be, Elhokar actually becomes something he can be, a deadly Dustbringer and, oddly enough, the hero he yearned to become? And he could be great in this role: clearly he wants to fight, we see it at the chamsfiend hunt, but he is so stuck up into being a king, he can never really let this side of him shine. Surely he was trained, his father was talented, his uncle is talented, his cousin is talented: Elhokar has to have some skill.

I say, let's root for a more out-of-the-box character progression here and have an unlikely pick evolve into becoming this "brave" and "obedient" terrifying Dustbringer. So I have to ask again, how about Elhokar as a Dustbringer?

The theory is an interesting one which would yield rather interesting results should it prove true, however I have several problem to pose here. Firstly lets assume that he does step down for those who are more capable. I doubt that 1) a democratic form of government will magically appear hence a power struggle will ensue and further chaos will be created.2) If he steps down that he will last very long first rule of consolidating power kill any potential threats to said power. He as the abdicating king is a dead man from the moment that he surrenders the throne which will end him long before he can attract the proper spren. 3) At this point the leap that will be needed to move his character from where he is to a place where he begins to listen and perhaps consider abdication in any real sense is enormous. I'm not sure that I see him as someone who is able to make that jump without a massive push in that direction. While it could happen it seems to me that he is more of a supporting player than someone who has any meaningful role to play considering how the world that he knows has come to an end. I hope that maybe he can be more than what we see because the room for growth exists, but at this point I just don't see it happening.

[Aoibheann]

I don't think Elhokar has to step down.  Dalinar has realized his task is larger than Alethkar.  I believe Elhokar needs to step up as King, and Dalinar needs to be above the Kings of the world, coordinating them.

Maybe being obedient means listening to Dalinar, but also being a leader, which for Elhokar is a brave thing to do.

[maxal]

33 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

The theory is an interesting one which would yield rather interesting results should it prove true, however I have several problem to pose here. Firstly lets assume that he does step down for those who are more capable. I doubt that 1) a democratic form of government will magically appear hence a power struggle will ensue and further chaos will be created.2) If he steps down that he will last very long first rule of consolidating power kill any potential threats to said power. He as the abdicating king is a dead man from the moment that he surrenders the throne which will end him long before he can attract the proper spren. 3) At this point the leap that will be needed to move his character from where he is to a place where he begins to listen and perhaps consider abdication in any real sense is enormous. I'm not sure that I see him as someone who is able to make that jump without a massive push in that direction. While it could happen it seems to me that he is more of a supporting player than someone who has any meaningful role to play considering how the world that he knows has come to an end. I hope that maybe he can be more than what we see because the room for growth exists, but at this point I just don't see it happening.

What I meant when I said Elhokar stepping might help the birth of democracy is exactly it. It *might* because by stepping down, Elhokar would create a precedent where the best possible man is chosen to rule and not the direct heir. He would break down the line of inheritance and after Dalinar is passed away, Alethkar may be inclined to pass it down too. Obviously they aren't there yet, but being force to endure Elhokar as king should help some smarter people to figure out a better system. Just might. Maybe it won't, but after the turmoil of the Desolation, the right conditions might arise to built Alehkar on stronger bases.

I disagree stepping down is a death warrant for Elhokar, quite the opposite. Dalinar would not harm Elhokar and by stepping down, he stops being a target for outside assassins. 

The last point is valid: it has been one of my major arguments. I never read Elhokar as someone being ready to make any significant jump unless he got real strong incentive, but if we look back at his "progression", it isn't so far-fetched. He came to Kaladin saying how he does not know how to make decision: he tried to trust this person or that person, but nothing he ever does work. Why is that? Because he has no instinct, he is indecisive, he isn't a quick enough thinker when it comes to politics and he failed to understand the essential: there is no recipe for becoming a great leader, it is either you have it or you don't. Kaladin actually gives him the right answer: "You could step down". The seed has been planted and yes it may be Elhokar reasons out he needs to step down, for the greater good. 

I don't think it would require tremendous character development: just a few situations where Elhokar's leadership is seen as a failure. Having him make the switch towards king to "other objectives" can very well happen as a side story. I never thought there was much less unsaid about Elhokar's personality, I could see it being carried down this way. 

Or not. This merely is an idea, but I find it interesting as it yields better character development than the alternatives, IMHO.

[Reaperess]

17 hours ago, maxal said:

I say, let's root for a more out-of-the-box character progression here and have an unlikely pick evolve into becoming this "brave" and "obedient" terrifying Dustbringer. So I have to ask again, how about Elhokar as a Dustbringer?

Ok, i have to admit that I DO like Elhokar as a Dustbringer, and I'm going to have to agree with other commenters that I don't think he needs to step down to do it. I've never really liked the idea of him as a lightweaver. I honestly just don't see the requisite personality. 

But, and I do have some reason for this... I almost think that it might serve him better if he became a Willshaper. 

The fact that he sees what sounds like Cryptics seems to point out that he is much more connected to the cognitive realm. (Both Shallan and Jasnah had similar experiences)

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Willshapers

Near the bottom of that page is a quote about the Willshapers. It doesn't sound dissimilar to Elhokar.

Although, after just rereading that page and it mentioning that they would "probably be OK with Adolin" doing what he did, it IS possible Adolin could be a Willshaper. I probably just undermined my hope that Elhokar would make a good Willshaper... gods damnation it. Now I can't stop thinking about things pointing to Adolin being a Willshaper... 

15 hours ago, maxal said:

 I will not back from it because said character's last name is Kholin. I have had this stance over and over again with Adolin, I will have it with Elhokar too. I never were completely against him becoming a Radiant, I merely never liked all suggested theories, I didn't find it gave coherent nor enthralling character development, not until I had this idea. 

As for Szeth, I am not seeing how the progression towards "brave" and "obedient" is relevant to his character. He seems more likely to keep on looking for his "higher law", his "better law" than to become even more obedient then he has been. He wants a guideline: this is very strong into his character, but I don't think he wants it tied to anyone, so really I am not seeing it.

I suspect there are other living Skybreakers.

The personality traits for Skybreakers is "Just" and "Confident".

11 minutes ago, Aoibheann said:

I don't think Elhokar has to step down.  Dalinar has realized his task is larger than Alethkar.  I believe Elhokar needs to step up as King, and Dalinar needs to be above the Kings of the world, coordinating them.

Maybe being obedient means listening to Dalinar, but also being a leader, which for Elhokar is a brave thing to do.

I can agree with this... I'm gonna have to edit my first post here and substituted Maxal's theory.

[maxal]

5 minutes ago, Reaperess said:

Ok, i have to admit that I DO like Elhokar as a Dustbringer, and I'm going to have to agree with other commenters that I don't think he needs to step down to do it. I've never really liked the idea of him as a lightweaver. I honestly just don't see the requisite personality. 

I personally do think to get good character development, Elhokar needs to step down. I don't believe he will ever reach his potential if he remains king. He just doesn't have it: no amount of tutoring and teaching is ever going to give him the instinct he lacks, the charisma he does not possess nor the ability to think fast without getting temperamental. His personality would be better suited elsewhere: his anger could be used to greater purposes. 

For years, I have read people arguing Adolin spending two books being angry at Sadeas was a sign he was a good pick for the Dustbringer as they were described as "angry". My thoughts are they were wrong: Adolin is not an angry man, he is an emotional man (as highlighted by one scene in OB) which means he feels strongly for events around him, but he isn't restricted to anger. Anger isn't even his first response, just the one he gets when his family is attacked. Elhokar however... Isn't he the one who reacts in anger for a yes or a no? Isn't his quick temper to get flustered better suited for a Radiant order such as the Dustbringer than kingship?

My point is, as long as Elhokar will keep on pretending he will eventually be a great king, as long as he will paddle into attempting at being a leader, he will never progress. He will progress on the day he admits he is NOT a leader, but he may be a good soldier. He may be a good second. He may be a brilliant special force individual used where needed, good at following orders (once he gets out of his head he ought to be giving them) with just enough of the rightful anger to push through opposition. It seems to me it isn't Elhokar wants to do nothing, he doesn't know how to win when it comes to politics: it isn't obvious enough whom he is fighting. Let's take him out of it and put him where he might get better.

13 minutes ago, Reaperess said:

Near the bottom of that page is a quote about the Willshapers. It doesn't sound dissimilar to Elhokar.

Although, after just rereading that page and it mentioning that they would "probably be OK with Adolin" doing what he did, it IS possible Adolin could be a Willshaper. I probably just undermined my hope that Elhokar would make a good Willshaper... gods damnation it. Now I can't stop thinking about things pointing to Adolin being a Willshaper... 

Nah. Willshapers are said to be explorers, curious, unreliable, attracted to novelty and new things: I really do not see it in Elhokar. He isn't curious, he is fearful and while he is unreliable it isn't for the right reasons. In shorts, he isn't unreliable in ways which suits the Willshapers: he is unreliable because of his temper, not because he is too curious to keep at doing one task for too long.

I have also steadily disagreed with the idea Adolin was suitable. He isn't. Adolin hates novelty, he fears anything which is out of the ordinary. He doesn't have it in him to be an explorer and he is incredibly reliable. This theory has surfed way too heavily on this one old WoB and has gotten a bit of wind because too many readers misunderstood Adolin's character, entirely.

Already, the excerpts from OB has practically destroyed the theory.

16 minutes ago, Reaperess said:

 The personality traits for Skybreakers is "Just" and "Confident".

I meant Szeth as a Dustbringer.

[Toaster Retribution]

I'm going to voice some more support for Dustbringer-Elhokar. First off, most people won't see it coming. The Dustbringers are the order which most people are interested in. And no one has ever seen Elhokar as a potential candidate. He is often seen as weak by most readers, but as @maxal points out, the character traits are there, buried beneath fear and anger. Having him turn out to be one of the most badass Radiants would be a great twist which few see coming, which is something Brandon would like. 

When it comes to abdicating, there is some foreshadowing, as maxal pointed out (Kaladin tells him to do it). I also think that Dalinar could do well as king (he practically is already). If he needs someone for the day-to-day business he can always load it upon Navani, Aladar, Sebarial, etc. 

It would be a cool twist fitting Elhokars character. I fail to see very many issues with it.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Fulminato said:

  Reveal hidden contents

“Coming, assassin?” The woman looked down toward the landing and the man wearing white. “I’ve danced that storm once before,” he whispered. “On the day I died. No.” “You’re never going to make it into the order at this rate.”

 “But you,” the thing said, “did not come for a contest, did you? We watch the others. The assassin. The surgeon. The liar. The highprince. But not you. The others all ignore you … and that, I hazard to predict, is a mistake.”

“And I confess, I am the wrong one to ask. My siblings are more interested in you Radiants. If you ever encounter another of the Sleepless, tell them you’ve spoken with Arclo. I’m certain it will gain you sympathy.”

i don't see many other conclusion.

EDIT: i forgot a quote from WotK "You’re one of the Radiants,” Skar said, pointing. “I believe it, even if Teft says you aren’t.”
“He isn’t yet,” Teft snapped. “Don’t you listen?"

That doesn't answer my question at all. In fact the specific wording implies that Szeth is not considered a Skybreaker by the Skybreakers. 

[Reaperess]

@maxal, I totally see what you mean. Maybe my original idea that Eshonai might end up being a Willshaper is plausible?