Members of the new Knights Radiant.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

That doesn't answer my question at all. In fact the specific wording implies that Szeth is not considered a Skybreaker by the Skybreakers. 

Egdedancer&Warbreaker spoiler

teft quote point of kaladin after sworn the second oath isn't a KR, a windrunner, but not a knight windrunner, the skybreakers don't considered sezth meber of the ORDER now, but if he tried can become one, all proto-radiant we know attract the spren long before make some advancement toward the 'knightood'. if szeth don't have a bond how they can think he make his way up *now* in the skybreaker order?

the two quote of arclo point to the sleepless watch (proto)radiant, the surgeon (kaldin), the liar (shallan), the highprince (dalinar) and the assasin (szeth)
if vash can use stormlight to sustain himself, and no more breath pinpoint a close correlation between the two, in warbraker a priest wonded by nightblood had his limb gone grey, the same can be done with a shardblade, we have a wob some like "szeth cannot breath stormlight now, but somewath in future, and nightblood can be fueled by stormlight replacing the breath

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I'm going to voice some more support for Dustbringer-Elhokar. First off, most people won't see it coming. The Dustbringers are the order which most people are interested in. And no one has ever seen Elhokar as a potential candidate. He is often seen as weak by most readers, but as @maxal points out, the character traits are there, buried beneath fear and anger. Having him turn out to be one of the most badass Radiants would be a great twist which few see coming, which is something Brandon would like. 

When it comes to abdicating, there is some foreshadowing, as maxal pointed out (Kaladin tells him to do it). I also think that Dalinar could do well as king (he practically is already). If he needs someone for the day-to-day business he can always load it upon Navani, Aladar, Sebarial, etc. 

It would be a cool twist fitting Elhokars character. I fail to see very many issues with it.

Yes. Precisely. Nobody will see it coming which is why it is such a great theory: just as nobody is seeing Adolin reviving his Blade coming.. Oh well, we see it here, on the 17th Shard, but the casual readers? Nope. Never. The same holds for Elhokar. 

I never believed the cryptics he sees had for purpose to bound him and Oathbringer has actually given us one interesting completely over-looked clue as to whether or not Elhokar is a proto-Radiant...

Oathbringer Spoiler

Spoiler

His wounds aren't healing any faster than normal wounds are. In fact, it would be argued they are even healing a slow pace, if we are to believe Dalinar's comments. If he were a proto-Radiant, even an early novice, he would have healed much faster.

I also felt getting Elhokar out of his torpor might led to interesting development in his relationship with Adolin: what if Elhokar ends up being to Adolin what Dalinar was to Gavilar? Wouldn't this be interesting? The traits are there, buried under protocol and boring politic duties: he just doesn't see it. Elhokar is just a terrible political leader, but he might not be so bad onto the battlefield, much like Dalinar used to be when he was younger.

I would reinforce the point Alethkar cannot afford to have an ambiguous leadership command as it currently has. It cannot have Elhokar posing as the king, pretending to be the king while Dalinar makes all the decisions. Maybe it worked during the Shattered Plains wars because the odds were small, but it won't work in a Desolation where they will need a clear line of command. The situation, as it is, cannot last. Thus, it is either Elhokar makes the smart move and steps down or he holds onto whichever power he can get causing him to ultimately side against Dalinar, in favor of Vorinism.

14 minutes ago, Reaperess said:

@maxal, I totally see what you mean. Maybe my original idea that Eshonai might end up being a Willshaper is plausible?

Oh Eshonai will most certainly be a Willshaper. I would be surprised if this one does not come true.

[Calderis]

@Fulminato I understand all of those things, and I still disagree.

A Knight Radiant may be the official title of someone who has attained the upper Oaths, which would make Teft's pronouncement true that Kaladin was not a Radiant yet. 

Joining an order though, is just a matter of bonding a spren of the correct type. If Szeth has not yet made it into the order, he has no spren. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1088#42

Quote

QUESTION

The Nahel bond, what determines whether you get a Cryptic or an honorspren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The spren themselves.

QUESTION

So it doesn't have anything to do with the Orders of the Knights Radiant?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, you have to attract the spren, the same way you attract emotionspren, you have to attract the right spren for the Order.

 

Edited September 10, 2017 by Calderis

[Fulminato]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Fulminato I understand all of those things, and I still disagree.

A Knight Radiant may be the official title of someone who has attained the upper Oaths, which would make Teft's pronouncement true that Kaladin was not a Radiant yet. 

Joining an order though, is just a matter of bonding a spren of the correct type. If Szeth has not yet made it into the order, he has no spren. 

i wonder how one can join one order and cannot take the official title granted to the member of that order.

[Calderis]

Just now, Fulminato said:

i wonder how one can join one order and cannot take the official title granted to the member of that order.

The same way a police officer in training is a cadet, and not a full officer. 

They aren't a "Radiant" just by joining the order. They are Radiant once they've attained the blade or plate, or whatever arbitrary benchmark they've chosen. 

[Hero-of-Pages]

Regarding Szeth. I think that there are four paths that his character can take with his powers.

 

Minor Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

1) He gains no powers, but can wield Nightblood. 

This theory I feel isn't very likely, he would either have to gain the ability to absorb stormlight and not have surges, or only be able to wield his weapon during highstorms. This doesn't sound interesting to read because it doesn't really create a good path for character progression, or cool powers to admire.

 

2) He gains powers, but not ones we've seen. Possibly voidbinding.

This might be possible but just feels a bit wrong to me. Regardless, we don't have enough data on voidbinding to actually create interesting speculation, so I will just leave this here as an option and move on.

 

3) Nightblood serves as an artificial spren (Which Brandon has referred to him as before), and grants surges based on the ideals that both he and Szeth most closely represent.

This seems the most likely possibility for me, since there is decent evidence in the books that this is what will happen. Nale invited Szeth to join the Skybreakers, and gave him Nighblood with that intent. He has spent his time with the Skybreakers, has been treated as a member of their order on some level, even if he is not one completely. And by far the order that Szeth and Nightblood fit into most is the Skybreakers, who are described as "Just and Confident." I do admit, Nightblood may be a twisted version of those attributes, and Szeth needs to grow into them, but it seems to make the most sense among the orders. This is my preferred theory.

Also an interesting side note on the Skybreakers. Their essence is vapor, and their soulcasting property is Opaque gas and smoke. The connection to Nightblood is likely coincidental, but still interesting.

 

4) Nightblood serves as an artificial spren, but combines has surges (maybe only one, maybe 2, perhaps even more) that can't be matched by any order of the Knights Radiant.

I guess this could be a possibility, though I'm not sure how we would guess what surges Nightblood would grant. Maybe just based on attributes associated with the powers?

 

Among these four theories, I believe that Szeth becoming a Radiant, and more specifically a Skybreaker makes the most sense.

 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, heroofpages said:

Regarding Szeth. I think that there are four paths that his character can take with his powers.

 

Minor Warbreaker spoilers

  Hide contents

1) He gains no powers, but can wield Nightblood. 

This theory I feel isn't very likely, he would either have to gain the ability to absorb stormlight and not have surges, or only be able to wield his weapon during highstorms. This doesn't sound interesting to read because it doesn't really create a good path for character progression, or cool powers to admire.

 

2) He gains powers, but not ones we've seen. Possibly voidbinding.

This might be possible but just feels a bit wrong to me. Regardless, we don't have enough data on voidbinding to actually create interesting speculation, so I will just leave this here as an option and move on.

 

3) Nightblood serves as an artificial spren (Which Brandon has referred to him as before), and grants surges based on the ideals that both he and Szeth most closely represent.

This seems the most likely possibility for me, since there is decent evidence in the books that this is what will happen. Nale invited Szeth to join the Skybreakers, and gave him Nighblood with that intent. He has spent his time with the Skybreakers, has been treated as a member of their order on some level, even if he is not one completely. And by far the order that Szeth and Nightblood fit into most is the Skybreakers, who are described as "Just and Confident." I do admit, Nightblood may be a twisted version of those attributes, and Szeth needs to grow into them, but it seems to make the most sense among the orders. This is my preferred theory.

Also an interesting side note on the Skybreakers. Their essence is vapor, and their soulcasting property is Opaque gas and smoke. The connection to Nightblood is likely coincidental, but still interesting.

 

4) Nightblood serves as an artificial spren, but combines has surges (maybe only one, maybe 2, perhaps even more) that can't be matched by any order of the Knights Radiant.

I guess this could be a possibility, though I'm not sure how we would guess what surges Nightblood would grant. Maybe just based on attributes associated with the powers?

 

Among these four theories, I believe that Szeth becoming a Radiant, and more specifically a Skybreaker makes the most sense.

 

I think that option 4is the most likely. 

We know from the annotations of Warbreaker that if someone draws Nightblood and survives, he forms a bond with them, and bonds on Roshar will act similar to a Nahel bond. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048#25

Quote

OUTIS

If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

So Szeth needs to find some way to temporarily invest, and draw Nightblood to survive, and then his bond should allow him to infuse with Stormlight. 

The WoB implies that the powers granted would not be the same. So he should gain something... But as to what? He may be accepted into the Skybreakers, but as far as the technical definition of a "Skybreaker" goes, he won't actually be one. 

I'm fairly certain that Nightblood itself is going to prevent him from attracting a traditional spren. The possibility of being eaten is probably a fairly good deterrent. 

[Hero-of-Pages]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that option 4is the most likely. 

We know from the annotations of Warbreaker that if someone draws Nightblood and survives, he forms a bond with them, and bonds on Roshar will act similar to a Nahel bond. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048#25

So Szeth needs to find some way to temporarily invest, and draw Nightblood to survive, and then his bond should allow him to infuse with Stormlight. 

The WoB implies that the powers granted would not be the same. So he should gain something... But as to what? He may be accepted into the Skybreakers, but as far as the technical definition of a "Skybreaker" goes, he won't actually be one. 

I'm fairly certain that Nightblood itself is going to prevent him from attracting a traditional spren. The possibility of being eaten is probably a fairly good deterrent. 

You make a some good points here. I don't really have any issues with Szeth gaining a unique pairing of surges. The question is, what surges will he gain, and more importantly, how will he progress as a Radiant? Would he have to swear oaths in order to strengthen his powers? Does he have to seek to "destroy evil"? And how would this affect his progression as a character?

[WhiteLeeopard]

Szeth may end up having unique surges, and a unique relationship with his spren (obviously Nightblood is never going to be normal). But he may also be sort of "adopted" into the skybreakers, an idea strengthened by been Nale's protegee. Even if Nale is nuttier than a fruit cake, the skybreakers obviously seem to respect him. I'm not certain if Szeth would need to swear oaths, I wouldn't be surprised if rather he has to "guide" Nightblood into changing ang growing. Normal spren change when their Knights say the Oaths, Szeth may just need to grow with Nightblood the hard way, through experience and familiarity. We did get a WoB that Nigthblood is changing, and Vasher had a bit of a blindspot when it came to the sword. 

[KevinTheHerdazian]

I recently started seeing Elhokar as Odium's champion. think about it.

• he acts out and throws fits
• He is easy to manipulate
• He is angry because he doesn't posses the power needed to go along with his authority

If I was Odium, I would try and influence Elhokar into my champion. Dalinar and Adolin will both hesitate to harm him, and Kaladin's oath to protect him will get in the way. And what better way to do this by giving him powers? Elhokar will now believe he IS the King and will exterminate threats to his rule, my guess is trying to banish Dalinar but he's still a highprince so who knows if Elhokar can be prosuaded to do that. You guess make a good point by saying he could be a dustbringer, but making him THE voidbringer would be even more unexpected. I haven't read edgedancer or oathbringer yet, but to me this seems way more likely then him becoming a radiant. Everyone already suspects him of being a radiant, and obviously the Kholin family is flourishing with "proto-radiants", I think that Brandon is leading us by the nose on this one guys. Why would he make the book the way the readers will expect it to go? I mean no offense to any of you, especially Maxal because Adolin is my favorite too, but making Elhokar a radiant is pretty expected, and by the way he's writing it, you can bet these are one of the things he's going to flip on us.

Also, you guys could make any argument about every single character being a radiant, but just because it would make a good story or by certain scenes where they portray an attribute, it doesn't mean that's part of who they are. Everyone gets angry, everyone is protective, and everyone has a role-model they look up too and will most likely obey. These are just human normal human behaviors.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, KevinTheHerdazian said:

Also, you guys could make any argument about every single character being a radiant, but just because it would make a good story or by certain scenes where they portray an attribute, it doesn't mean that's part of who they are. Everyone gets angry, everyone is protective, and everyone has a role-model they look up too and will most likely obey. These are just human normal human behaviors.

This is true, but speculating is kind of fun, so we do it anyway :-) I also think that the traits we are looking for are the major ones in each character. Kaladin, for example, is all about saving people. That is such a huge part of who he is. He is brave as well, and obedient on occasion. He heals people as well, he can be resolute in some matters, and his men can depend on him. Most characters has a lot of the KR traits in them. We are just looking at the major ones, the ones you can see the most. Which is stuff like obedience in Amaram, foolhardy bravery in Rysn, extreme curiosity in the case of Eshonai, and so on. What we need to do is single out which traits that are more dominant in different characters, and place them in a potential order afterwards. 

That said, not everyone will become a KR. A lot of people will, but not everyone. I will personally subscribe to maxals Dustbringer theory, but Elhokar becoming Odiums champion isn't by any means farfetched.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Quote

Taravangian inspected this Redin, curious. This was the king’s ruthless executioner that he had read about? This concerned, helpless-looking man?

I think I'm going to get behind the Redin Dustbringer train. Its been obvious for a while the bastard was going to be relevant. He was written..in an eye drawing way. Then again sometimes Brandon just does that on accident .

[Toaster Retribution]

Calling it now, Redin is Wayne worldhopping.

[Fulminato]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think that option 4is the most likely. 

We know from the annotations of Warbreaker that if someone draws Nightblood and survives, he forms a bond with them, and bonds on Roshar will act similar to a Nahel bond. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048#25

So Szeth needs to find some way to temporarily invest, and draw Nightblood to survive, and then his bond should allow him to infuse with Stormlight. 

The WoB implies that the powers granted would not be the same. So he should gain something... But as to what? He may be accepted into the Skybreakers, but as far as the technical definition of a "Skybreaker" goes, he won't actually be one. 

I'm fairly certain that Nightblood itself is going to prevent him from attracting a traditional spren. The possibility of being eaten is probably a fairly good deterrent. 

"It would be treated the exact same way" don't think let room for other interpretation. for a roshan the bond between szeth and nightblood is a nahel bond, the same bond a knigh radiant had with the spren. so for a roshan don't exist label difference between a 'normal' radiant and szeth, thus can call szeth a skybreaker. the same name don't mean a perfect copy, but the difference between them don't change the name you call them.

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

"It would be treated the exact same way" don't think let room for other interpretation. for a roshan the bond between szeth and nightblood is a nahel bond, the same bond a knigh radiant had with the spren. so for a roshan don't exist label difference between a 'normal' radiant and szeth, thus can call szeth a skybreaker. the same name don't mean a perfect copy, but the difference between them don't change the name you call them.

Skybreakers are bonded to Highspren, and have the surges of Gravitation and Division. 

That WoB says "treated the same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers." 

He's not bonded to a Highspren, and he likely won't have the powers of a Skybreaker. 

Joining an order was not a matter of being accepted by the order. It was about the Spren. In Dalinar's very first vision as Heb, fighting the midnight essence, the male Radiant tells him "it is not my decision" whether he could join an order, but he would find a place at Urithiru regardless. 

I have always taken this to mean "you can come and join us and become a squire for a Knight, but you won't become a knight unless the Spren choose you."

Szeth has Nightblood. He is something new to Roshar. Whatever powers he gets, even if they match those of the Skybreakers, he is still not bonded to a Highspren. He will not have to swear the Oaths of a Skybreaker.

The Skybreakers exist independent of Nale. His endorsement may speak strongly in favor of Szeth, but Nale does not get to choose who a Skybreaker is, the Spren do. 

[Nymeros]

On 9/7/2017 at 11:55 AM, Reaperess said:

Shallan honest; Jassnah is giving; Szeth is Just and Confident

These don't really match up for me....but I get your point.

 

Anywhos, Moash is still my vote for Dustbringer.

So far, his arc has been about seeking power to fight injustice....but then obtaining inordinate power and failing to use it appropriately. 

He has had time to get the attention of spren and has likely been broken enough to become a surge binder. The Dustbringer surges would fit with the obtaining inordinate amounts of power arc.

He's got the brave part down and the obedience oaths would teach him to chill with the selfish underhanded schemes and accept the wisdom of others.

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

Anywhos, Moash is still my vote for Dustbringer.

So far, his arc has been about seeking power to fight injustice....but then obtaining inordinate power and failing to use it appropriately. 

He has had time to get the attention of spren and has likely been broken enough to become a surge binder. The Dustbringer surges would fit with the obtaining inordinate amounts of power arc.

He's got the brave part down and the obedience oaths would teach him to chill with the selfish underhanded schemes and accept the wisdom of others.

You have good points, but I hope we get other important Dusties than Moash. I dont hate him like a lot of people do, but I just find him quite uninteresting. I would much prefer Amaram or Elhokar (both would be good too, if Brandon is reading this). 

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

You have good points, but I hope we get other important Dusties than Moash. I dont hate him like a lot of people do, but I just find him quite uninteresting. I would much prefer Amaram or Elhokar (both would be good too, if Brandon is reading this). 

Cool username.

I'm more for Amaram with the Stonewardens myself (dependable and resourceful). From the descriptions, Dustbringers seem a bit wild and really hot blooded....which I don't see Amaram as. Elokhar? That's a much better fit. Keep in mind though, we're totally getting multiple members of the same order though. Sanderson even confirmed that we will get to see another Windrunner speak oaths (how cool is that?).

Moash and Elokhar forced to join forces again as members of the same order? That could be interedting.

Btw, Moash will be getting chapters so here's me hoping you come around on him once he is brought into the forefront!

[Toaster Retribution]

34 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Cool username.

 

Thanks! Yours too. Is it a Game of Thrones reference? If it isnt, the character Oberyn has the middle-name Nymeros, just so you know why I thought it might be that. 

35 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I'm more for Amaram with the Stonewardens myself (dependable and resourceful). From the descriptions, Dustbringers seem a bit wild and really hot blooded....which I don't see Amaram as.

Stonewardens would work too. I feel that Dustbringer fits since he is incredibly obedient towards his religion and his superiors among the Sons of Honor. He is most likely brave on the battlefield as well. That said, you have a point about his temperament. I will keep on having it as my main Dustbringer theory until we know more of the Dustbringers though. I like the idea a lot. 

38 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Btw, Moash will be getting chapters so here's me hoping you come around on him once he is brought into the forefront!

I do look forward to those chapters, but I will confess that it has more to do with Graves and the Diagram. I hope to be converted to the Moash fan-club too though :-)

[maxal]

21 hours ago, KevinTheHerdazian said:

I recently started seeing Elhokar as Odium's champion. think about it.

• he acts out and throws fits
• He is easy to manipulate
• He is angry because he doesn't posses the power needed to go along with his authority

If I was Odium, I would try and influence Elhokar into my champion. Dalinar and Adolin will both hesitate to harm him, and Kaladin's oath to protect him will get in the way. And what better way to do this by giving him powers? Elhokar will now believe he IS the King and will exterminate threats to his rule, my guess is trying to banish Dalinar but he's still a highprince so who knows if Elhokar can be prosuaded to do that. You guess make a good point by saying he could be a dustbringer, but making him THE voidbringer would be even more unexpected. I haven't read edgedancer or oathbringer yet, but to me this seems way more likely then him becoming a radiant. Everyone already suspects him of being a radiant, and obviously the Kholin family is flourishing with "proto-radiants", I think that Brandon is leading us by the nose on this one guys. Why would he make the book the way the readers will expect it to go? I mean no offense to any of you, especially Maxal because Adolin is my favorite too, but making Elhokar a radiant is pretty expected, and by the way he's writing it, you can bet these are one of the things he's going to flip on us.

Also, you guys could make any argument about every single character being a radiant, but just because it would make a good story or by certain scenes where they portray an attribute, it doesn't mean that's part of who they are. Everyone gets angry, everyone is protective, and everyone has a role-model they look up too and will most likely obey. These are just human normal human behaviors.

Turning onto evil forces to get the easy path towards achieving his dreams does seem inline with Elhokar's character. It has been one of my leading theories. I find it plausible, more plausible than the usual "Elhokar learns leadership from Kaladin and is suddenly able to compensate for this weaknesses". As I said within my previous posts, I do feel leadership is something one can learn: you need a given amount of instinct to succeed as the leader of a divided nation and Elhokar just doesn't have it. He can't compensate by a charisma he does not possess nor an impressive personality like his uncle. Being Alethi, we can however see why he would think he needs to work onto the "impressive mean" part as his only examples have been such people. My thoughts are thus Elhokar is not suited to be king, he will never be suited to be king and, as long as he keeps on trying to be king, he will not achieve much. So it is either he makes the switch, he falls into irrelevance or he gives his soul away to the opposite side.

I also think the only, only reason readers suspect he is a becoming a Radiant merely is because of the shadows he has seen in the mirror. For some reason, not many readers have been willing to challenge this idea, not many have been willing to agree Elhokar just doesn't seem like he currently fits as a Radiant which is why, if it does happen, I feel it needs to happen after a makes a drastic change.

I don't see why I should be offended though... nobody expects Adolin to be a Radiant: everyone is against it except a handful of readers such as myself. If he does make it, it will definitely be "unexpected" 

And yeah, there has been a lot of argument over very random characters becoming Radiants: as soon as someone is broken, then he/she ought to be a Radiant. I think people just like to theorize on those.

This being said, I am against Amaram becoming a Radiant. I really do not feel his take on life befits any of the orders. It would really be anti-climatic for me if Brandon were to write this.

[Toaster Retribution]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

This being said, I am against Amaram becoming a Radiant. I really do not feel his take on life befits any of the orders. It would really be anti-climatic for me if Brandon were to write this.

It really depends on how you view the Oaths. He is basically doing the same stuff as Taravangian, but with a worse reason for it. Still, he believes in his cause, and that the sacrifices he makes are necessary. There are people who could never be Radiants (Straff Venture for example) but I think that so long as they believe that they are doing something that is ultimately right, they can be Radiants.

[SilverTiger]

I like the idea of Redin as a Dustbringer. He seems very misunderstood (people view him as a bastard, and a assassin/executioner), and very obedient (patricide). And the whole killing people thing on his father's orders is bound to have caused some mental issues (so will patricide). Also, he seems like a very interesting character. I would like to know more about him.

I also like the theory of Adolin waking up his Blade and becoming and Edgedancer. It makes since. The only problem is that it is obvious.

[Ansalem]

21 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

I also like the theory of Adolin waking up his Blade and becoming and Edgedancer. It makes since. The only problem is that it is obvious.

I kind of doubt it is that obvious to most people. To the people on this forum maybe. I know if I'd never visited this forum I would have never even considered reviving a dead Blade at all. The extent of my thoughts about it would have been "so the Blades are dead spren, that's cool".