[OB] Dalinar & Shshshsh

[KidWayne he/him]

So, let's all post our theories on Dalinar's involvement in the death of his first wife. I've seen everything from "He killed her" to "he was involved" or even more indirect like "he made a decision that ultimately led to her death."

Well here's where I'm putting my money: I think Dalinar called someone's bluff - perhaps by slaying a person he believed to be a decoy - and he slayed his wife directly. Upon discovering that he was wrong and the decoy was actually his wife, he participated in a cover-up (perhaps at Gavliar's suggestion) to explain away her death. Adolin & Renarin are okay because they believe the cover-up story. Dalinar is able to be a good person now because erasing his wife from his memory cleaned him of his guilt.

So, what do you guys think?

[Guest]

I have a hard time believing neither Adolin nor Renarin are carrying sequels from having their mothers being abducted and murdered. There need not have their father kill her to be affected: the event by itself out to be have been traumatic. Right now, it is my biggest source of questioning. Why aren't the boys having any scars? 

[Calderis he/him]

The conversation with Kadash cemented my feelings. 

Dalinar was overcome with the Thrill, and when someone tried to use her as a shield he ignored it and struck anyway. 

He killed his wife because he was in the throws of the thirst for battle and overcoming his opponent was more important than the life of his wife. 

He slaughtered everyone there with no regard for who was in his way. 

Kadash became an ardent after the fact because what he witnessed was purely monstrous and he felt the need to atone for his role contributing to the needless slaughter. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The conversation with Kadash cemented my feelings. 

Dalinar was overcome with the Thrill, and when someone tried to use her as a shield he ignored it and struck anyway. 

He killed his wife because he was in the throws of the thirst for battle and overcoming his opponent was more important than the life of his wife. 

He slaughtered everyone there with no regard for who was in his way. 

Kadash became an ardent after the fact because what he witnessed was purely monstrous and he felt the need to atone for his role contributing to the needless slaughter. 

This is so hard!!!! Can't wait for more to be out. I agree with you 100%, but it does not explain how the boys have no traumatic memories. Their mother was killed! This is massive.

[OathKeeper]

I think the flashback chapters are meant to highlight the POV character's recurring inner struggles. Dalinar struggles with self doubt. He seems to have pretty well overcome this until...enter Kadash.

Kadash's point is that Dalinar isn't infallible, not that he isn't innocent. He is trying to remind Dalinar that he's been incorrect before and could be again. So in some way, Dalinar being incorrect led to shshshsh dying. 

I also think there will be a mirroring conflict of choosing between his oath to his wife and his oath to unite. I bet those commitments conflicted in the case of shshsh and he risked her life in favor of uniting Alethkar. 

[Hafrigado]

Remember it's "Shshsh" not "Shshshsh". Come on, really guys.

[frozndevl]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The conversation with Kadash cemented my feelings. 

Dalinar was overcome with the Thrill, and when someone tried to use her as a shield he ignored it and struck anyway. 

He killed his wife because he was in the throws of the thirst for battle and overcoming his opponent was more important than the life of his wife. 

He slaughtered everyone there with no regard for who was in his way. 

Kadash became an ardent after the fact because what he witnessed was purely monstrous and he felt the need to atone for his role contributing to the needless slaughter. 

I also subscribe to this belief, but I wonder if drinking made him numb to the Thrill.

[+Ravioli]

I guarantee the answer will be found in RAFO.

[Tarion]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

I have a hard time believing neither Adolin nor Renarin are carrying sequels from having their mothers being abducted and murdered. There need not have their father kill her to be affected: the event by itself out to be have been traumatic. Right now, it is my biggest source of questioning. Why aren't the boys having any scars? 

Do we know when it happened? I can't remember either Adolin or Renarin mentioning remembering her. It's entirely possible it happened before they can remember (Although with the age difference, it would have to have been when Renarin was very young). 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I am with @Calderis on this. My only problem is that it could feel like a repeat of Shallans story. She murdered her parents, and denied it to herself. Dalinar killed his wife, and forgot.

[marsoupial they/them]

So, then, if his boon was forgetting Evi, what was his bane?

Edited September 6, 2017 by bleeder

[frozndevl]

The more opinions that I read, the more I am thinking that his boon was to forget what "he did to his wife", i.e., that he went on a murder-death-kill spree and slaughtered untold innocents up to and including his wife. His curse was that he also forgot everything about and related to his wife. 

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

The more opinions that I read, the more I am thinking that his boon was to forget what "he did to his wife", i.e., that he went on a murder-death-kill spree and slaughtered untold innocents up to and including his wife. His curse was that he also forgot everything about and related to his wife. 

He knows what his boon and curse are. Whichever each is, they can't be something he's forgotten. 

His guilt with those events has disappeared along with the memories. If either were to do with those events specifically, he wouldn't be able to remember what his boon or curse were. 

[frozndevl]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

He knows what his boon and curse are. Whichever each is, they can't be something he's forgotten. 

I admit, I haven't paid as much attention to some of those older details and I didn't realize he did know his boon and curse. Has it been stated that he still knows the explicit reason, such as "I want to forget this very specific act/action", or more along the lines of he knows that his boon was to forget "something" and his curse was that "he forgot his wife?"

[Hafrigado]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He knows what his boon and curse are. Whichever each is, they can't be something he's forgotten. 

His guilt with those events has disappeared along with the memories. If either were to do with those events specifically, he wouldn't be able to remember what his boon or curse were. 

He thinks he knows what his boon/ curse is. He could be wrong.

 

18 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

I admit, I haven't paid as much attention to some of those older details and I didn't realize he did know his boon and curse. Has it been stated that he still knows the explicit reason, such as "I want to forget this very specific act/action", or more along the lines of he knows that his boon was to forget "something" and his curse was that "he forgot his wife?"

We don't really know what he thinks it is. He just said he knows.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

18 minutes ago, Hafrigado said:

He thinks he knows what his boon/ curse is. He could be wrong.

 

We don't really know what he thinks it is. He just said he knows.

 

Right. I can't recall him ever saying what his boon and curse are. I've assumed the boon was taking away the pain of loosing a wife he loved, and the curse was to forget her entirely. If the boon or curse made him forget why he asked, then it would make sense that he might assume this too, especially if people around him talk about how much he loved her. He could just be wrong about knowing. The boon could be to forget his wife and he doesn't really know the curse. 

If something like that is the case then I wonder what the curse is. Lift's curse seems designed to help her or to lead her to being who she needs to be to fight. Perhaps Dalinar got a curse that helped him become who he is now. The only thing I can think of is him being a man of extremes and needing rules to control himself. That's just a stab in the dark though, and I'd have to look at some timeline issues to see if it were remotely possible. 

[king of nowhere]

I'll go with "somebody threatened his wife if he didn't stop, and dalinar called their bluff".

Even with the thrill, I have a hard time thinking he'd go as far as killing a woman he obviously loved. Unless... unless he didn't really love her enough to want to forget, but it was more about guilt for how she died.

19 hours ago, maxal said:

I have a hard time believing neither Adolin nor Renarin are carrying sequels from having their mothers being abducted and murdered. There need not have their father kill her to be affected: the event by itself out to be have been traumatic. Right now, it is my biggest source of questioning. Why aren't the boys having any scars? 

First of all, we don't know when it happened, they may have been both farily grown up when it happened. Second, those are important noble people; historically, the children of important nobles were raised more by nurses than by their actual parents, who were more like distant figures too important to be bothered by the needs of children, even if those children were their own. In that case, adolin and renarin simply wouldn't feel much attachment for their mother in the first place. Third, not everyone who goes through something bad develops mental trauma, and most who do overcome it by themselves. Some people are stronger than others, and I already commented that adolin seems pretty strong to me in that regard; a lot of stressing/traumatic things happened to him during the first two books, and he was doing a pretty good job of hoolding himself up until the end. I don't think losing his mother would have scarred him in the long run. Can't speak for renarin, we've never got his pow..

8 hours ago, bleeder said:

So, then, if his boon was forgetting Evi, what was his bane?

I believe feeling no grief was his boon, and forgetting his wife was the curse

[Calderis he/him]

58 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

First of all, we don't know when it happened,

Well, Dalinar's conversation with Kaladin after the imprisonment implies that Dalinar was away at the Valley visiting the Nightwatcher during the Roshone incident. The events that lead to Dalinar's trip, by necessity happened before that. 

Roshone arrived in Hearthstone 7 years prior to tWoK. So Kal was 12 at Roshone's arrival. Factor in the time that lead to his banishment, the trip to the Nightwatcher and however much time Before that... I'm guessing Adolin would have been 10 or 11 at most. 

[+robardin he/him]

18 hours ago, Hafrigado said:

Remember it's "Shshsh" not "Shshshsh". Come on, really guys.

Haha, you made me look

Per a quick re-read of the lastest Oathbringer update (Ch. 4-6), her "name" really is Shshshsh. Calling her Shshsh is a rather rude familiarity, if you ask me!

On a more serious note, I don't think his boon necessarily had anything to do with her at all. Though obviously his visit happened after her death (people would surely have noticed he "forgot" his wife as a living woman), the only thing we really know about it is the timing, assuming Dalinar's summary of "the Roshone affair" happening while he was "away at the time" (and Gavilar was at the Shattered Plains, leaving Elhokar in charge) refers to his trip to the Nightwatcher, as is widely assumed.

"The Roshone affair" happened at least seven years prior to the ending of "The Way of Kings", as Kaladin's flashback to when Roshone first came to his town was "SEVEN YEARS AGO".

If what terrible thing that happened at "the Rift" that Kadash refers to is what was depicted as happening in a location of the same name in "The Thrill" from Unfettered II,

Spoiler

...that was headed by "thirty-four years ago". Though prior to what is not entirely clear, I would assume it's also referring to the end of "Words of Radiance".

 

[Calderis he/him]

@robardin 34 years is too far prior if that event is the same as the death of Dalinar's wife.

34 years prior to the end of WoR would be years prior to Adolin's birth. 

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@robardin 34 years is too far prior if that event is the same as the death of Dalinar's wife.

34 years prior to the end of WoR would be years prior to Adolin's birth. 

I meant that the events at The Rift, as depicted in "The Thrill", are from 34 years ago, in terms of building a timeline of events in Dalinar's past that are coming up now. 

I got cut off and prematurely posted there, I was going to go back and put in the "28 years ago" count for him meeting his wife, to bracket when he might have visited the Nightwatcher. 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

First of all, we don't know when it happened, they may have been both farily grown up when it happened. Second, those are important noble people; historically, the children of important nobles were raised more by nurses than by their actual parents, who were more like distant figures too important to be bothered by the needs of children, even if those children were their own. In that case, adolin and renarin simply wouldn't feel much attachment for their mother in the first place. Third, not everyone who goes through something bad develops mental trauma, and most who do overcome it by themselves. Some people are stronger than others, and I already commented that adolin seems pretty strong to me in that regard; a lot of stressing/traumatic things happened to him during the first two books, and he was doing a pretty good job of hoolding himself up until the end. I don't think losing his mother would have scarred him in the long run. Can't speak for renarin, we've never got his pow..

We do. Evi died ten years ago: neither Adolin nor Renarin were too young to not remember her and both were young enough to have been impacted by her death. While it is true some individuals are more resilient than others, dealing with your mother being brutally murdered is Big. Huge. Gigantic. I expect a child and a young teenager to have a reaction following such an event. Adolin especially must feel anger towards the culprit: he is very protective of his family. I can't say about Renarin, we do not know him enough yet, but the complete lack of response from the boys is suspicious. Either they do not know the truth and everyone agreed to lie to them to protect them or there is a large chunk of the story Brandon has omitted. 

Also, based on Adolin's inner monologue, I would argue he had a strong attachment to his mother. We know from WoB she had a strong influence on him. She wasn't some stranger he barely saw, she was his mother and I do not doubt he loved her dearly just as I do not doubt Renarin loved her too. We do not know much about the boys childhood, but we do know, Adolin at the very least, trailed after his father from one warcamp to the next. They knew their parents, they lived with them. 

[Guest Edonidd]

We don't see a lot of people reflecting on her, but what little we have seen and from who we have seen it lets us make a couple conclusions.  Logic puzzle type conclusions.

Conclusion #1 - Either (A) Dalinar did not kill her, or have a significant and avoidable role in her death?  Or (B) Dalinar's boon from the Nightwatcher is something along the lines of "nobody will hold what I did against me."  

We know this to be an absolute fact because his children (her children) love him and are devoted to him.  Navani chose him and wanted desperately to marry him.  I believe i remember Jasnah calling him the best man she has ever known or something like that.  Despite what Kadash said, we haven't heard a single rumor or anything negative about him.

There is the option that Dalinar killed her AND everyone else.  Only Kadash survived, possibly with some pretty serious injuries that left some gnarly scars.  Then Dalinar swore him to secrecy.  Kadash never told anyone, despite being horrified enough to quit soldiering forever AND Kadash continued to work for Dalinar to this day.  Dalinar then lied to everyone about what happened and everyone was fine with it.  Nobody ever found out the truth.  Personally this option doesn't work for me.  I just can't get the pieces to fit together.

[asterion137 he/him]

On 9/5/2017 at 4:55 PM, Calderis said:

The conversation with Kadash cemented my feelings. 

Dalinar was overcome with the Thrill, and when someone tried to use her as a shield he ignored it and struck anyway. 

He killed his wife because he was in the throws of the thirst for battle and overcoming his opponent was more important than the life of his wife. 

He slaughtered everyone there with no regard for who was in his way. 

Kadash became an ardent after the fact because what he witnessed was purely monstrous and he felt the need to atone for his role contributing to the needless slaughter. 

don't we know what happened at the rift? It was in unfettered iirc

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

don't we know what happened at the rift? It was in unfettered iirc

I've only read the two flashbacks that Brandon read at signings, one of which was that first one. 

So the only other flashback I've read is the feast during the highstorm.