[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[frozndevl]

1 hour ago, Elena said:

how do spanreeds work exaxtly

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spanreed

[Elena she/her]

3 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spanreed

Yes but does the gem stay infused or does it need to recharge? I'm assuming the first... right?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

About Elhokar, since I like defending the guy (its kind of my thing to defend disliked characters in the community). Elhokar wants to be a good king because he has grown up around powerful men. His father unified Alethkar, his uncle is a conqueror, his mother and sister are both respected and commanding people, excelling within their chosen field. It is not strange that he cares about looking good and excelling in order to be praised. He is insecure, and surrounded by people who are, in one way or another, brilliant. He is the only one who isn´t, and yet he is supposed to be the guy in charge. In those circumstances, most people would be whiny and selfish. This is one of the major reasons as to why I think people go to hard on him. He is the average joe among a bunch of Supermen. 

Elhokar also cares for others. He does. He let the Darkeyes enter the arena. 

[Elena she/her]

10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

About Elhokar, since I like defending the guy (its kind of my thing to defend disliked characters in the community). Elhokar wants to be a good king because he has grown up around powerful men. His father unified Alethkar, his uncle is a conqueror, his mother and sister are both respected and commanding people, excelling within their chosen field. It is not strange that he cares about looking good and excelling in order to be praised. He is insecure, and surrounded by people who are, in one way or another, brilliant. He is the only one who isn´t, and yet he is supposed to be the guy in charge. In those circumstances, most people would be whiny and selfish. This is one of the major reasons as to why I think people go to hard on him. He is the average joe among a bunch of Supermen. 

Elhokar also cares for others. He does. He let the Darkeyes enter the arena. 

I'm said I can only upvote once. All the heart eyes.

[Fulminato he/him]

16 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

About Elhokar, since I like defending the guy (its kind of my thing to defend disliked characters in the community). Elhokar wants to be a good king because he has grown up around powerful men. His father unified Alethkar, his uncle is a conqueror, his mother and sister are both respected and commanding people, excelling within their chosen field. It is not strange that he cares about looking good and excelling in order to be praised. He is insecure, and surrounded by people who are, in one way or another, brilliant. He is the only one who isn´t, and yet he is supposed to be the guy in charge. In those circumstances, most people would be whiny and selfish. This is one of the major reasons as to why I think people go to hard on him. He is the average joe among a bunch of Supermen. 

Elhokar also cares for others. He does. He let the Darkeyes enter the arena. 

the alethi society put high praise in the duelling skill, both his father and uncle was eccelent in the duelling ring, his cousin (adolin) is one the best duelist in the warcamp, but no one spoke of the elhokar performance in this regard.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Fulminato

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

4 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

the alethi society put high praise in the duelling skill, both his father and uncle was eccelent in the duelling ring, his cousin (adolin) is one the best duelist in the warcamp, but no one spoke of the elhokar performance in this regard.

Yes. But he could have also become a good strategist, a good commander, a good economist (Sebarial style), a good politician, a charismatic person, he had many many options, not just sword bashing. 

That been said, I'm neutral about Elhokar. I don't think too highly of him, but he can go either way for me at this point.

[Dahak he/him]

On 05/09/2017 at 4:30 PM, JoyBlu said:

  But it was also mentioned on Navani's blushing Red nails, and her wedding dress was Red!  Red for Luck.  Who has a red wedding dress?

Western tradition that's appropriate for widows and other non-virgins. White is for virgins.

Asian its pretty standard since white is the color of death and/or red the color of happiness. Traditional Chinese wedding dresses are red.

On 05/09/2017 at 5:03 PM, Michael Portz said:

I don't think that Lirin/Hesina are able to actually SEE Syl -besides in her form as shardweapon-, so how can she introduce herself? 

Syl can make herself visable. She did it to various members of Bridge 4 back when they were collecting the plants to make anasthetics.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Dahak

[Nymeros]

5 hours ago, Elena said:

Maybe we just interpreted the question differently? 

Clearly.

 

Elokhar is going to make an awesome lightweaver one day.

Elokhar: "I'm a terrible king."

Cryptic: "Hmmm. This is true"

Elokhar: *Explodes with stormlight*

Edited September 8, 2017 by Nymeros

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

17 hours ago, Elena said:

Maybe it's just me, but I am always a bit shocked when people go 'this character is obviously minor, they haven't any room for growth'. Guys. This is a ten-books saga. We're a fifth into it. We don't know anything about what is going to happen and where the characters are going, especially in terms of characterization and development. Remember how Mat Cauthon was a dick in early WOT? I couldn't have cared less about him and didn't get why other characters did. Or for ASOIAF readers: Jaime Lannister got a helluva lot of character development with his POV, and it was great.

I really, really don't get the point of thinking a minor character will not evolve for no other reason that because he is a minor character. Minor characters are the backbone of sagas as much as the worldbulding is, they give flavour to the story and work best when they have a personality, not a set of characteristics set in stone. If Elhokar remains the exact same for the next 3 books, that'd be bad writing. Moash is also a minor character, and yet he got his own arc even as the focus was on Kaladin - it's not hard to do, and I am definitely expecting one for Elhokar as well. It doesn't have to necessarily make him a better person, but neither will be the monochromatic villainization some people seem to expect.

I should clarify that I don't think that Elhokar won't change. What I think is that Elhokar won't change to service his own story, he'll change to service the stories of the main characters. I am imagining, specifically, that Elhokar become more antagonistic towards Dalinar as his personal feelings of humiliation and paranoia evolve into a deep feeling of resentment, driving towards an unavoidable conflict between the two of them. Is that "monochromatic villainization"? That depends on how the story is executed, but it doesn't have to be. Dalinar is unlikely to see Elhokar as irredeemably bad even if the two of them end up at odds.

(Also, I should say that I don't hate the character of Elhokar. Quite the opposite. I am trying to envision an end to his story that strikes me as dramatically satisfying, not kill the dude off.)

Moash is actually a good example of what I'm envisioning. Moash has his own arc, yes, but clearly it's in the service of putting Kaladin in a particular position, highlighting his internal conflicts that he's been wrestling with over the course of the book. Moash being a secondary character doesn't mean that he never changes or that he's one-dimensional or that people can't have a complicated reaction to him. (I for one don't hate Moash as much as a lot of people here seem to, for example.) But Moash's story in WoR is there to highlight Kaladin.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Harry the Heir
clarification

[maxal she/her]

9 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

I should clarify that I don't think that Elhokar won't change. What I think is that Elhokar won't change to service his own story, he'll change to service the stories of the main characters. I am imagining, specifically, that Elhokar become more antagonistic towards Dalinar as his personal feelings of humiliation and paranoia evolve into a deep feeling of resentment, driving towards an unavoidable conflict between the two of them. Is that "monochromatic villainization"? That depends on how the story is executed, but it doesn't have to be. Dalinar is unlikely to see Elhokar as irredeemably bad even if the two of them end up at odds.

Moash is actually a good example of what I'm envisioning. Moash has his own arc, yes, but clearly it's in the service of putting Kaladin in a particular position, highlighting his internal conflicts that he's been wrestling with over the course of the book. Moash being a secondary character doesn't mean that he never changes or that he's one-dimensional or that people can't have a complicated reaction to him. (I for one don't hate Moash as much as a lot of people here seem to, for example.) But Moash's story in WoR is there to highlight Kaladin.

Yes. This is a very good post. Elhokar being a minor character does imply his growth will happen at the service of another character as such is the purpose of minor character, unless Brandon changes his mind and decides to give him his own voice. Unfortunately, at this point in time, we are following so many Kholins, Elhokar does come across as the third wheel on the barrow. His speculative progression from "useless king" to "worthy leader" doesn't strike me as unique enough within the already existing voices to exist on its own which is why I always felt his speculative progression as an "antagonist to Dalinar" is more interesting. I definitely do not see it as "monochromatic villainization" either, I see it as very complex actually. Why? Because Elhokar is not a bad person, he does not mean ill, but his upbringing has brought out the worst out of his personality and he is not stuck into a position where he has been made obsolete. So it is either he finds himself a "new role" and he allows Dalinar to take over or he opposes him seeing how the changes he wants to make are to stringent. So far, I have not seen Elhokar as within the right mind frame to bow behind Dalinar, there is too much pride in him yet, which is why I find it more likely he would end up opposing Dalinar.

Earlier others commented on Elhokar's skills with a Blade. I have been curious about it as Elhokar surely was trained to fight, he seems knowledgeable of dueling, but we never see him fight. When push comes to shove, he always cowards away... So huh I have gotten curious, while I am sure he has the skills, I am doubting he has the courage to do so, but we'll see.

As for Moash, while yes it is true his character arc was meant to supplement Kaladin's, I felt his one POV, towards the end of WoR opened for wider possibilities, but again, we'll see.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

Yeah, Moash is going to be on his own for a while, and I'm curious to see how that turns out. Somebody on the Shardkeepers Podcast floated the idea of a Moash novella in Oathbringer detailing his time with the Diagrammists (a la Eshonai in WoR and Szeth in WoK), and that idea sounded very cool to me.

[scifan he/him]

A couple of thoughts... 

Isn't the list of characters after the initial "part" heading the order in which they appear?  (For the first part of Oathbringer I see: Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin)  I've read the first two books, but invested more time with the audio book versions...  *shrug*

I still expect some combination of the following. That Kaladin will explain to his parents that he's a knight radiant and that he's the captain of the the Kings guard (I think he still holds that title actually), that he has come home to make sure that THEY were ok, and to ascertain what really happened with the parshmen after the Everstorm struck.  

I kind of expect a fight with Roshone's guards.  I have a little concern if Syl will have an issue with him bashing Roshone,  but I don't think he's broken any of his oaths.

It doesn't seem like he's going to get time to catch them up on what's happened to him, and while I think he had a copy of his writ of freedom in his backpack, with the fortune of gems contained in his pack, I'm uncertain he'll want to voluntarily open his pack.I expect him to invite the survivor's to migrate to Urithiru - which might get some odd responses.  I suspect Lirin would refuse with his desire to help those in need.

He's so driven by his sense of responsibility, I also don't expect him to stay in Hearthstone very long because he promised Dalinar that he would go see the state of things in Kholinar... (and to try and open the oath gate there if I remember correctly...)

I also think that we've seen Kaladin's entire POV in the first part.

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, scifan said:

I also think that we've seen Kaladin's entire POV in the first part.

I agree with the majority of what you wrote. This though... There's 32 chapters in part 1 and we've seen 6.

There's no way that's it for Kal

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, scifan said:

I also think that we've seen Kaladin's entire POV in the first part.

I'm pretty sure he will have returned to Urithiru by the end of Part 1.

[Elena she/her]

15 minutes ago, scifan said:

I also think that we've seen Kaladin's entire POV in the first part.

Brandon is usually pretty good at not leaving POVs on a cliffhanger/in the middle of the action (unless we're in the final part of the book). I'm actually thinking we might even get another Kaladin chapter next week. I'm not *sure*, bur I wouldn't be surpised if it happens.

4 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

I should clarify that I don't think that Elhokar won't change. What I think is that Elhokar won't change to service his own story, he'll change to service the stories of the main characters.[...]

Moash is actually a good example of what I'm envisioning. Moash has his own arc, yes, but clearly it's in the service of putting Kaladin in a particular position, highlighting his internal conflicts that he's been wrestling with over the course of the book. Moash being a secondary character doesn't mean that he never changes or that he's one-dimensional or that people can't have a complicated reaction to him. (I for one don't hate Moash as much as a lot of people here seem to, for example.) But Moash's story in WoR is there to highlight Kaladin.

Okay, got it I personally just.. don't see a difference? Secondary characters definitely aren't there to be the focus of the story, but that doesn't mean their evolution can't be *about themselves* just as much as it is about furthering the plot. I think it's a case of chicken before the egg - you think Moash's development was there to further Kal's plot, I think Moash's arc was about what Moash would do and how that fit in the wider plot, including his actions' effects on Kaladin.

In my experience, the best stories end up being those that are character-driven within given plot constrains, instead of plot-driven with the characters just along for the ride, and Stormlight is definitely a character-centred story. Elhokar's arc will be about himself just as much as it will be about needing to serve plot reasons or furthering someone's plot.

 

[asterion137 he/him]

Kaladin's trajectory back to the plains intersects with Jasnah/Hoid's likely paths to Kholinar, btw. Just throwing that out there...

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

Kaladin's trajectory back to the plains intersects with Jasnah/Hoid's likely paths to Kholinar, btw. Just throwing that out there...

Agreed. When he returns to Urithiru, I think it will be by Kholinar's Oathgate 

[Darkness he/him]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Yes. This is a very good post. Elhokar being a minor character does imply his growth will happen at the service of another character as such is the purpose of minor character, unless Brandon changes his mind and decides to give him his own voice. Unfortunately, at this point in time, we are following so many Kholins, Elhokar does come across as the third wheel on the barrow. His speculative progression from "useless king" to "worthy leader" doesn't strike me as unique enough within the already existing voices to exist on its own which is why I always felt his speculative progression as an "antagonist to Dalinar" is more interesting. I definitely do not see it as "monochromatic villainization" either, I see it as very complex actually. Why? Because Elhokar is not a bad person, he does not mean ill, but his upbringing has brought out the worst out of his personality and he is not stuck into a position where he has been made obsolete. So it is either he finds himself a "new role" and he allows Dalinar to take over or he opposes him seeing how the changes he wants to make are to stringent. So far, I have not seen Elhokar as within the right mind frame to bow behind Dalinar, there is too much pride in him yet, which is why I find it more likely he would end up opposing Dalinar.

Earlier others commented on Elhokar's skills with a Blade. I have been curious about it as Elhokar surely was trained to fight, he seems knowledgeable of dueling, but we never see him fight. When push comes to shove, he always cowards away... So huh I have gotten curious, while I am sure he has the skills, I am doubting he has the courage to do so, but we'll see.

As for Moash, while yes it is true his character arc was meant to supplement Kaladin's, I felt his one POV, towards the end of WoR opened for wider possibilities, but again, we'll see.

Upvoted this is the first time i remember seeing you do a decently sized post without mentioning Adolin even once haha.

Guys! Character progression! I'm just kidding Maxal.

You make some excellent points here. I agree with your assessment of Elhokar, but perhaps not with the outcome.

I dont think the only options for his story are bow to Dalinar or oppose him. We've seen what happens when Elhokar and Dalinar butt heads, and I'm sure Elhokar will keep that in mind. I cant see him just rolling over and giving the throne to Dalinar (nor do I think Dalinar wants that), but he is certainly cowed by his uncle (step-father?) to a large degree.

I think Dalinar will realize what his politicking is doing to the throne and, once the moment is ripe, set himself up in Urithiru, abdicate to Adolin, and remain in an advisory role to Elhokar. Navani would probably also set up some kind of scholarly cadre in Urithiru to research magical means of withstanding a desolation. Big ties between Alethkar and the city-state of Urithiru, but I think Dalinar will eventually ease himself out of his power spot in order to give Elhokar's kingship actual legitimacy. Depending on Elhokar's personal character progression, he might even be trusted enough to do it before the desolation ends.

[Pattern he/him]

10 hours ago, Elena said:

how do spanreeds work exaxtly? Do they also run on stormlight? If yes, how do so many people across Roshar have them so far into the Weeping?

Spanreeds are a kind of pairing (conjoining) fabrial, made from one gemstone (ruby) (with a captured spren in it) and then cut in half. If you move one, the other moves in the same direction. I guess cutting the gemstone also splits the spren in half?

The important thing to remember though is that spanreeds are paired. You can only write to the one other spanreed paired to yours. So probably Heathstone has one spanreed, connected to the hub in Tashikk (the city Tyn uses) or another city with similar information houses. From there the message can be relayed to the destination.

On the need of stormlight to use them: I am not sure, the required energy is given by the movement of the first spanreed (double as heavy as it would be without the pairing), so it might be that the trapped spren is enough to make it work.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Pattern
Typos - today special offer, 20% off in a dozen

[Fulminato he/him]

2 hours ago, Pattern said:

The important thing to remember though is that spanreeds are paired. You can only write to the one other spanreed paired to yours. So probably Heathstone has one spanreed, connected to the hub in Tashikk (the city Tyn uses) or another city with similar information houses. From there the message can be relayed to the destination.

I find high improbable a rural alethi village like heartstone have a spanreed linked to a city placed so far, in a kingdom isn't vorin. if heartstone had a spanreed (there is a recent invention) is linked to the closest city (real city, not mere village) managed by a ligheyed family of high dahn (third/fourth) appointed by the highprince himself

Edited September 8, 2017 by Fulminato

[ScavellTane]

3 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

I find high improbable a rural alethi village like heartstone have a spanreed linked to a city placed so far, in a kingdom isn't vorin. if heartstone had a spanreed (there is a recent invention) is linked to the closest city (real city, not mere village) managed by a ligheye family of high dahn (third/fourth) appointed by the highprince himself

Wouldn't Roshone have one? Since he's technically from Kholinar.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

5 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

I find high improbable a rural alethi village like heartstone have a spanreed linked to a city placed so far, in a kingdom isn't vorin. if heartstone had a spanreed (there is a recent invention) is linked to the closest city (real city, not mere village) managed by a ligheye family of high dahn (third/fourth) appointed by the highprince himself

I thought they might have a spanreed, but it isn't certain. Although I assumed if they did, it would be connected to either Kholinar or Sadeas' capital.

[Pattern he/him]

11 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Wouldn't Roshone have one? Since he's technically from Kholinar.

He would be the most likely to have one. It probably would be connected to Sadeas' capital, since Hearthstone is in Sadeas' princedom.

Hesina might also have just the old fashioned messenger in mind. Spanreeds are not the only method to contact someone, though it's the quickest.

Hearthstone using the hub cities probably is unlikely, I have to admit. I forgot that spanreeds are a recent invention. They are handled quite casually in the books so I lost sight of that.

Edit:

Technical question: How do spanreeds compensate planetary rotation and the differential in velocities of different places? After all you can't use them on a (moving) ship...

Edited September 8, 2017 by Pattern

[Fulminato he/him]

Just now, ScavellTane said:

Wouldn't Roshone have one? Since he's technically from Kholinar.

roshone's scribe have one probably, he had been exile from kholinar, reputation broken, without any economic leverage (he owned some silversmith after all), only the blood relation with amaram have save him from become a tenner. don't think many in kholinar will be pleased with any pubblic connection with roshone  but i don't state "heartstone don't have spanreed", but "the spanreed is linked to a close alethy city"

[ScavellTane]

2 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

roshone's scribe have one probably, he had been exile from kholinar, reputation broken, without any economic leverage (he owned some silversmith after all), only the blood relation with amaram have save him from become a tenner. don't think many in kholinar will be pleased with any pubblic connection with roshone  but i don't state "heartstone don't have spanreed", but "the spanreed is linked to a close alethy city"

I wouldn't put it pass him to have one tied to Kholinar considering how "corrupt" things got over there. The queen probably played some part in the 'Roshone Affair'.