[OB] Oathbringer Prologue now on Tor.com

[Jofwu he/him]

Re: power from the gods

I think he's definitely talking about Surgebinding and Voidbinding (or whatever it is that listeners are capable of).

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, navahgar said:

What about Hoid?  Couldn't Gavilar have learned this information from Hoid?  We know that Hoid has been Elhokar's Wit, but do we know how long he's been around the family?  Also, even if he's only now the Wit, that doesn't mean he couldn't have earlier been a different figure that Gavilar knew.

I especially like the idea of Hoid being the source of Gavilar's information, because doesn't Hoid at one point tell Dalinar that he's willing to watch Roshar burn to achieve his targets?  Helping Gavilar bring back the Desolations certainly fits in with that nicely.  Also, the letters that Hoid exchanges with Frost appear to suggest that Frost is annoyed with Hoid for his interfering on Roshar.  Has anything we've seen so far from Hoid really risen to that great a level of interference?  Maybe his giving Gavilar in depth knowledge of the past and helping Gavilar come to the conclusion that the Desolations need to return is the big interference.

The manner in which Gavilar was going about things was far more likely to help Odium though, and that seems to be the opposite of what Hoid wants. 

1 minute ago, frozndevl said:

2) He considers the Heralds to be gods, and they come as a result of the desolations. I have never paid much attention to Vorinism and who the adherents are, and where they ultimately stand with regards to the Heralds.

As he said, he wants to bring back the Heralds. Vorinism doesn't treat them as gods but as the direct servants of the Almighty, and we know that what the Sons of Honor wanted. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1166#2

Quote

QUESTION

Another interesting thing I heard was when he was explaining a little about the secret organizations to a young lady who was a fairly new fan.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I didn’t hear the exact question, but Brandon spoke with certainty when he said that Amaram and Gavilar were Sons of Honor. I had taken Gavilar’s involvement with a grain of salt to this point. He also said that we know the most about their purpose–to return the Voidbringers as a means of making the Heralds return–and they they were the “most wrong.” He said that we can pretty much infer the purposes of the diagram group through the epigraphs and text. He said we basically don’t know anything about the Ghostbloods’ purposes. (which matches what Mraize told Shallan. I am very excited to find out more about them and if they know Hoid)

 

[Nedwick]

Since Venli went to buy Szeth, I wonder if she ended up with Gavilar's black sphere, bonded the spren inside, and that caused her strange behavior in "scholar"form.

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, Nedwick said:

Since Venli went to buy Szeth, I wonder if she ended up with Gavilar's black sphere, bonded the spren inside, and that caused her strange behavior in "scholar"form.

The Parshendi never saw Szeth after the assassination. In book, Szeth thinks about how he hid the sphere somewhere in Jah Keved 

[maxal she/her]

I will admit right away, I haven't read all the comments, I have browse through them quickly, but there were too many of them  Once we get the real meat, next week, those threads will become insane.

I will thus post my impressions and thoughts over each chapters, being a character reader, they will focus on character building, their interactions and I think it may be amusing to post my own predictions of what will happen based on what I have read so far.

First off, this is my favorite prologue of the three. I'll will confess right away, I hated the Szeth one which read a real-time demonstration of surgebinding: I found it boring and irritating. I liked the Jasnah prologue slightly more because it gave us some insight on her thoughts, but I also wasn't incredibly interested into her short trip to Shadesmar. This prologue now, I do feel it has real meat, when it comes to characters.

Everyone knows how cold, on average, I am towards Eshonai's character. What is great about this chapter is it does help picture her in a more interesting light than her short novella did in WoR. I especially noted how Brandon took great care to describe her curious nature, her unreliability, her inability to complete tasks, her wandering mind and her innate nature as an explorer. It made her the most efficient at learning the Alethi language and it troubles her as she feared becoming too important to keep on... wandering about. My thoughts are this prologue definitely helps place-hold Eshonai as our future Willshaper: I find too many terms used to characterize her to be too dangerously close to the WoR epigraph depiction of them to be ignored.

I also felt Brandon has improved how he writes Parshendis. I never liked those chapters, back in WoR, but this one reads easily and fluidly. I am not sure what the difference is precisely, but it bodes well for the remaining of the book. Now if only Eshonai could get something more interesting to do then turn into an evil creature, completed with interactions with other known character, then it may actually turned out being interesting to read.

Second off, Gavilar. Everyone knows I hate Gavilar. I have made my feelings known into several threads: I don't trust the man and this prologue definitely give credence to Navani's claims, back in WoK, on how Dalinar did not seem to know everything about his brother. Or it may be he is only remembering what he wants to remember, whichever, my thoughts following this chapter is how Gavilar... isn't a good person. He fears succession. He wants to create a threat which would force his kingdom to fight, presumably for generations and generations, just so his kingdom would be forced to stand united, long after he is gone. Why does he fear succession so much? Had Gavilar deem his son, Elhokar, unworthy of being a king? This wouldn't be surprising, but I am rather curious about it.

The source of his knowledge is also mysterious. At first, I thought it came from Jasnah, but then again Jasnah does not seem to know as much. Gavilar has thus been really busy since he was king, obsessing on finding a way to keep the kingdom united. Unite them. Yeah, right. Did Gavilar receive those visions as a very young man? Are they the reason why Gavilar, then 4hth dahn, fought to become Highprince, even though he was not a contender? Are they the reason he deemed it was not enough and went for the kingdom? Are those visions the sole reason for the war of unification and what does it say about Gavilar? And what does it say about Dalinar? Gavilar thought the best way to accomplish his task was to rage war, to conquer and to force others to bow down to him which Dalinar, upon receiving the same visions, saw how wrong they had been and seeks a better path? I feel we were giving an additional piece of the puzzle, but it remains incomplete. 

I am starting to think Brandon is actually trying to mislead us: because we are reading Dalinar's viewpoints, we have come to see the Kholins as the good people, the protagonists, but what if we are wrong? I say, Gavilar, Dalinar, they weren't the good guys within this story: they were the invaders, they shed first blood, they were the bad guys, the antagonists. Yes, Dalinar has turned his back on those days, but it would be good to remember his branch of the Kholin family took the princedom, it would good to remember it may be they terminated competing branches of their own family. And yeah for those wandering, the tip bit about other branches of the Kholin family existing, it came from Reddit.

My predictions now: Gavilar had the visions as a young man, but I cannot begin to guess why. It is why he sought to conquer Kholinar, then Alethkar. He then became obsessed with maintaining his unity and it caused to work towards bringing back a Desolation. Also, here is one quite outside the box: Gavilar never wanted Elhokar to succeed him. He had... other plans for his succession and they did not involve his son. He however died before he could make them happen.

 

[Nedwick]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Parshendi never saw Szeth after the assassination. In book, Szeth thinks about how he hid the sphere somewhere in Jah Keved 

I forgot about Szeth thinking about hiding the sphere in Jah Keved, that's a good point. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

29 minutes ago, Nedwick said:

Since Venli went to buy Szeth, I wonder if she ended up with Gavilar's black sphere, bonded the spren inside, and that caused her strange behavior in "scholar"form.

The buying of Szeth is unrelated to Venli potentially getting the a black sphere as Gaviar gave Eshonai one to take back to the Parshendi. 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Edit: so we're back to where did he learn so much about the Everstorm, and where/how did he obtain the Voidlight? 

I have a theory which has little in the way of direct evidence in terms of voidlight. Perhaps Odium has a hand in the highstorms. Meaning what if the raw destruction of the storms results not from the actual nature thereof, but is rather the result of Odium's investment on Roshar. Among other pieces of evidence I cite the fact that Odiums red lightning is present during average highstorms indicating his presence. Could it be that a very specific process was revealed to Gavilar by the unknown info source is needed to capture the otherwise inaccessible voidlight.

[vividox]

I really like how this serializes the novel (well, the first 300 pages, at least). Looking forward to these threads over the next few months

[Jaconis]

I'm terrible at searching through the WoBs so I will ask the class, as it were; what do we know about the Lighteyes to whom Teft turned in the Envisagers?

I've had this crazy idea, with absolutely no supporting evidence, that it was Amaram. After this prologue, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe it was Gavilar way back before conquest. What he's trying to do to the world seems similar to what they were doing to themselves, i.e. putting people in near death scenarios to unlock surgebinding. 

I bring this up because, according to Teft, they knew more than they should. Gavilar also it would seem knows more than he should. Perhaps they told him about voidbringers and parshmen?

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

The main question which actually I was left with after this prologue was, why after Gavilar died did he ask Szeth to leave a message for his brother? At the time of the first prologue it seemed totally logical. But at this point, the one thing that has become completely obvious is how Gavilar was surrounded by all sorts of people, except for his family. Did he "see the light" as he died? Otherwise, shouldn't he have realized that Dalinar would easily have come into huge conflict with many of his toadies? I suppose that he trusted even the person that had just killed him more with the sphere than anyone else that might have found it on his body might be a sign of changing his mind on his last minutes alive.

However, the other option is that something we still don't know happened after his talk with Jasnah, which from the timeline I believe is the last person we see Gavilar speaking to that night. Barring Sadeas, who we assume he spoke with when they changed armor.

About this thread...4 pages and I suspect still 2 more to come from a prologue most of us had already read. Every week from now on is going to be insane. And I sincerely hope the 17th shard doesn't fall the week after OB release due to exploding threads.

Edited August 22, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Nathrangking he/him]

6 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The main question which actually I was left with after this prologue was, why after Gavilar died did he ask Szeth to leave a message for his brother? At the time of the first prologue it seemed totally logical. But at this point, the one thing that has become completely obvious is how Gavilar was surrounded by all sorts of people, except for his family. Did he "see the light" as he died? Otherwise, shouldn't he have realized that Dalinar would easily have come into huge conflict with many of his toadies? I suppose that he trusted even the person that had just killed him more with the sphere than anyone else that might have found it on his body might be a sign of changing his mind on his last minutes alive.

 

It may have nothing to do with "seeing the light". It can be seriously asked how much did Gavilar actually love Dalinar? To my mind he saw him at most as a means to an end. Dalinar fought his wars and made it possible for him to further his goals. He may have given the sphere away simply to prevent Dalinar from figuring out what he had  been doing. His last moments may well have been spent getting rid of the evidence of his actions. As for his concern for his toadies he may well not have been concerned either because he thought that the veil of secrecy would never be lifted or perhaps he simply felt that Dalinar on his own could not defeat his cabal.

 

[Tesh]

*Excited panting* YYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

About this thread...4 pages and I suspect still 2 more to come from a prologue most of us had already read. Every week from now on is going to be insane. And I sincerely hope the 17th shard doesn't fall the week after OB release due to exploding threads.

I know, it is scary... Worst is I probably won't be able to post anything until Wednesday/Thursday from now on as I will need to read the three chapters... I usually read one chapter per night, so three is really going to be hard. I wish I were able to read them in the morning, before I go to work, but I just don't have the time. Perhaps I'll try to eat lunch at my desk and read instead 

[Ammanas]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 I sincerely hope the 17th shard doesn't fall the week after OB release due to exploding threads.

To play off of the famous Robert Oppenheimer quote attributed to him (who was quoting a verse from a sacred Hindu text): "For I have become Oathbringer, the destroyer of the 17th shard"

[maxal she/her]

I have just went an checked today's Discord discussion... I mean we have just gotten the prologue from Oathbringer which involves Eshonai and Gavilar, then how in the seven kingdoms did they end up discussing Adolin??? 

I am proud to say I have absolutely nothing to do with it, though some commentaries made my ears curled 

[Andy92]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I also felt Brandon has improved how he writes Parshendis. I never liked those chapters, back in WoR, but this one reads easily and fluidly. I am not sure what the difference is precisely, but it bodes well for the remaining of the book. Now if only Eshonai could get something more interesting to do then turn into an evil creature, completed with interactions with other known character, then it may actually turned out being interesting to read

I had the same thought when I was reading it. I always kinda dreaded a future book that focused on Eshonai because the discussion of the forms/ways Parshendi communicate through rhythm just wasn't that fun to read about. But it did seem more fluid in this prologue. Part of it might be because now that Brandon established how the Parshendi communicate in WoR, he doesn't have to use as many words to explain what's going on this time around. Whatever it exactly is, I noticed the same thing. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

Building a theory now, but it's slightly hinged on one thing: do we have any previous hint at Taravangian being present at Gavilar's assassination? Because that doesn't feel right to me at all. He's the King of Kabranth, which kind of makes him a big deal, so I would expect it to have been commented on by Dalinar or Jasnah at some point throughout the Way of Kings, particularly in the scenes where Jasnah interacted with him.

[Lightspine]

 

HI guys, I'd like to bring up a couple of quotes that I haven't seen discussed yet, and aren't in the older version of the prologue. (At least, not in the version which is posted on the "Excerpts" pinned page.)

Quote

She’d always imagined humans—as sung of in the songs—as dark, formless monsters

What is up with this? Am I misreading this quote? It seems as if the songs described humans this way. Or is it that the songs did not describe them at all, so they took that form in Eshonai's mind? I could see either interpretation. If the songs do speak of humans in this manner, what would be the reason for it? Because they used to fight each other as enemies? But, calling them "dark" and "formless" makes little sense - the human legends tell of the voidbringers in a negative light, but they also got some details correct: skin of ash and fire (orange and black) and red eyes, while exaggerations, at least had some origin in the appearance of the Void-form parshendi. Darkness and formlessness, meanwhile, are wildly inaccurate.

Quote

He leaned forward, the light from the ruby leaking between his fingers. “I need you to deliver a message to your leaders. The Five? You’re close to them, and I’m being watched. I need their help to achieve something.”

The entire spoken part above is new. First of all, Gavilar shows he knows of the Five. This is pretty unsurprising, even though Gavilar never showed this knowledge in the previous version, so, even though it is new, I don't think we need to speculate much about that detail.
The detail I bolded seems more important. Who is watching Gavilar? The Ghostbloods (seems likely)? Jasnah (unlikely, but seems almost plausible)? The heralds? (at least 2 of them were at the feast!) I feel as if this is related in some way to the voice in the rhythms. Whoever that was, they knew the Listeners would need an assassin, so they had to have had knowledge of Gavilar's plans. But, would Gavilar even notice a being omniscient enough to speak through the rhythms spying on him? I feel as if he is likely being watched by multiple parties, and he may not have known about all of them. Thoughts?

Edit: Forgot to talk about the end of the second quote! ("I need their help to achieve something."). It sounds as if Gavilar can't bring the Listeners back to their old forms without the consent of their leaders. It's not as simple as him breaking some gemstone and unleashing an Unmade or something of that sort: It requires active participation by the Listeners in some way.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Lightspine

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

What is up with this? Am I misreading this quote? It seems as if the songs described humans this way. Or is it that the songs did not describe them at all, so they took that form in Eshonai's mind

I took this as the songs described then originally as lacking Parshendi style forms, and over time, as oral traditions are want to do, it shifted from lacking their forms, to lacking all form.

As for the quote, I'm guessing ghostbloods first and foremost, but he is secretive in general, so who knows. I doubt he knows that the Heralds are who they are. The goals of the Sons of Honor seem like if he knew he be actively petitioning them for help. 

 

[zebobes]

24 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

What is up with this? Am I misreading this quote? It seems as if the songs described humans this way. Or is it that the songs did not describe them at all, so they took that form in Eshonai's mind? I could see either interpretation. If the songs do speak of humans in this manner, what would be the reason for it? Because they used to fight each other as enemies? But, calling them "dark" and "formless" makes little sense - the human legends tell of the voidbringers in a negative light, but they also got some details correct: skin of ash and fire (orange and black) and red eyes, while exaggerations, at least had some origin in the appearance of the Void-form parshendi. Darkness and formlessness, meanwhile, are wildly inaccurate.

I like how carefully you analyzed the interesting turns of phrase... it helped me look at it from a different light. This quote is fascinating. It makes me wonder if the Parshendi were partially in a different realm (Cognitive, maybe?) and so from their side, humans were only dark and formless. It's also interesting, how Gavilar says the Parshendi used to be vibrant, while humans used to be Radiant. It almost sounds like vibrant should be capitalized, Vibrant, just like how Radiant is a term too. 

24 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

The entire spoken part above is new. First of all, Gavilar shows he knows of the Five. This is pretty unsurprising, even though Gavilar never showed this knowledge in the previous version, so, even though it is new, I don't think we need to speculate much about that detail.
The detail I bolded seems more important. Who is watching Gavilar? The Ghostbloods (seems likely)? Jasnah (unlikely, but seems almost plausible)? The heralds? (at least 2 of them were at the feast!) I feel as if this is related in some way to the voice in the rhythms. Whoever that was, they knew the Listeners would need an assassin, so they had to have had knowledge of Gavilar's plans. But, would Gavilar even notice a being omniscient enough to speak through the rhythms spying on him? I feel as if he is likely being watched by multiple parties, and he may not have known about all of them. Thoughts?

No ideas on this front, but this quote definitely makes me think that one of the prologues will be from Gavilar's perspective. Any thoughts on what the chapter name will be? My money's on "To Die". 

I think it would also be interesting if one of the chapter titles was "To Despair", but is that too similar to "To Weep"? 

I also found a quote that I thought interesting. 

Quote

“Your Majesty,” she said, daring to take his hand in hers. He couldn’t feel the rhythms. He didn’t know. “Please. We no longer worship those gods. We left them, abandoned them.”

When Eshonai says that Gavilar didn't know, what is that referring to? Is there a deeper significance to the rhythms that imparts a knowledge that we are as yet unaware of? Gavilar doesn't know that there is a scary god who is trapped, but his or her rhythms resonate throughout the world? He didn't know how terrible their gods were? Or am I reading to much into the one line, and it just means that Gavilar didn't know how terrified she was? 

Edited August 23, 2017 by zebobes

[Tesh]

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

About this thread...4 pages and I suspect still 2 more to come from a prologue most of us had already read. Every week from now on is going to be insane. And I sincerely hope the 17th shard doesn't fall the week after OB release due to exploding threads.

I'm scared now...

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, zebobes said:

When Eshonai says that Gavilar didn't know, what is that referring to? Is there a deeper significance to the rhythms that imparts a knowledge that we are as yet unaware of? Gavilar doesn't know that there is a scary god who is trapped, but his or her rhythms resonate throughout the world? He didn't know how terrible their gods were? Or am I reading to much into the one line, and it just means that Gavilar didn't know how terrified she was? 

There could be more to it, but I took it as her desperately trying to impart the weight of her words because he wouldn't understand the "Rhythm of Terrors" 

[Amanuensis he/him]

2 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Quote

He leaned forward, the light from the ruby leaking between his fingers. “I need you to deliver a message to your leaders. The Five? You’re close to them, and I’m being watched. I need their help to achieve something.”

The detail I bolded seems more important. Who is watching Gavilar? The Ghostbloods (seems likely)? Jasnah (unlikely, but seems almost plausible)? The heralds? (at least 2 of them were at the feast!) I feel as if this is related in some way to the voice in the rhythms. Whoever that was, they knew the Listeners would need an assassin, so they had to have had knowledge of Gavilar's plans. But, would Gavilar even notice a being omniscient enough to speak through the rhythms spying on him? I feel as if he is likely being watched by multiple parties, and he may not have known about all of them. Thoughts?

The Sleepless come to mind. If he knew their exact nature, I'd expect Gavilar to demonstrate signs of insectophobia (or, I suppose, cremlinophobia?) but they do have a tendency to spy on people, and it's possible he could know they're watching without him knowing how.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Amanuensis

[Pagerunner he/him]

Maybe he was being watched by Cryptics, same as his son would later be.

[Amanuensis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Maybe he was being watched by Cryptics, same as his son would later be.

I like this idea. The question is, what delicious lies are they feasting on?