Will Adolin be the Traitor?

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Dang, I'm not too active for a couple of weeks and return to find the shard full of new members! The approaching date of Oathbringer is starting to have effects

Calderis, what is your new title? As I can't remember which book Gerontarch is from...

Regarding the topic, no I find it hard to believe from what we know so far that Adolin will be the traitor. Something to keep in mind is the backcover blurbs and the "one is a traitor to the others" is made by completely different authors. I know that Adolin is an interesting character (he is one of my favorites) but I never really get why people dump him on the dark side so readily. He just killed someone that every single reader and almost every pov character wanted dead, what is wrong with that?

Also, if we use the argument that there can only be one radiant of each order, then Roshar is definitely in deep muck . 10 vs thousands of voidbringers, unmade, and other unknown nasties...you know what, I'm starting to reaaally sympathize with the Heralds.

[aemetha he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

We've seen multiple truthwatcher. We've been told by Brandon we will see other Windrunners. There will be multiple members of the different orders. 

Lift may be our focus Edgedancer, but that doesn't mean others with smaller roles can't be one as well.

^ This.

As I understand it, Lift is planned as a focus character for the second story arc. I imagine that is quite consistent with Adolin being an edgedancer focus character in the first story arc. There is absolutely no chance of him surviving until the second story arc because his girlfriend has a shardblade, psychosis and a penchant for killing the people close to her!

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I know that Adolin is an interesting character (he is one of my favorites) but I never really get why people dump him on the dark side so readily.

Because many readers do not like "void" when it comes to character functions. They do not know what Adolin's purpose is within the story, so they give him one. In a general manner, those who want Adolin to turn evil also are those disliking him becoming a Radiant. Nobody has ever been able to make me see the interest into "Adolin going evil" theories nor has ever been able to explain to me why it is preferable to "Elhokar going evil". One of my thoughts is some readers will naturally latch onto characters describes as not performing.After all, isn't it what many fantasy heroes are all about? Previously worthless individuals, struggling to accomplish something, up until magic befalls on them and make them great? Renarin and Elhokar definitely are characters which fall within this mold and it may be why few readers see them as anything else but glorious Radiants, both learning how to overcome their weaknesses, one becoming the most important man on Roshar, the other one the greatest king ever. Adolin being presented as an efficient someone, not struggling to have skills, having been successful into what his world deemed important can't possibly by hiding anything to work on: he can't be a Radiant, he is too perfect already, hence he has to turn evil.

A lot of it has to do with the tropes Brandon chose to jungle with and it is my direst desire for Brandon to have written enough on Adolin's character for readers to stop quarreling over his personality.

46 minutes ago, aemetha said:

^ This.

As I understand it, Lift is planned as a focus character for the second story arc. I imagine that is quite consistent with Adolin being an edgedancer focus character in the first story arc. There is absolutely no chance of him surviving until the second story arc because his girlfriend has a shardblade, psychosis and a penchant for killing the people close to her!

Brandon may change his mind. He may write more novellas for Lift. He may do a great deal lot of things which will make it so Lift won't be the focus Edgedancer. Also, hasn't anyone questioned the relevance of having a focus Edgedancer character within the second half, when are bond to learn so much about this order prior to reaching this book? Lift's story may have other purposes which are still unknown to us.

[Contessa she/her]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Adolin having suffered less, I would say this depends on what you consider suffering to be. If you consider suffering to be physical, such as torture, or emotional, such as abuse, then yes Adolin has had an easy life. I would however argue his life was not picture perfect: he is the lesser loved child of his family, he is the recipient of all expectations/obligations, a burden he cannot share with his brother, he is unable to form relationships with his peers. Of course, this isn't the same as "breaking down", but this is enough to think he might break down. Also, the fact he may not have suffered as much as others is not really meaningful: Adolin's life is not over. 

His trials are just starting.

I agree. Despite the fact that Adolin won't be in the very forefront, with the desolation coming, and him being wrapped up in everything, he will obviously have more struggles to come. 

I know this has already been discussed to some length in other threads, and I hate to beat a dead horse, but I simply don't see Adolin as the lesser loved child. He may have had more responsibilities, and Renarin may have been given more slack in general from Dalinar, but I don't think it was because he was better loved. I think it was because, as we see so often, Dalinar views Adolin as very, very, similar to himself. Therefore, I think that Dalinar was afraid that his elder son would become a Blackthorn if he was too lenient. In my opinion, Adolin is a much better man than his father, especially during his Blackthorn days, and there isn't any chance of Adolin taking that route. But, I believe that's what Dalinar feared, and I think that fear will be triggered when Dalinar learns of what Adolin did at the end of WoR. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

I think that it is a leap to say that Adolin will end up being a traitor. His story is fascinating in that in contrast to so many damaged, ineffective or broken characters he is someone who is relatively well off and yet stumbles. He can very well serve as a study of what it means to be human. Yeah as others have said he seems to suffer less, but at the same time those who suffer too much are not humans. They are caricatures who propel the story, but allow very little in the way of introspection. Instead of saying that he is doomed to turn on everyone perhaps we can wait and see what mirror he may provide for the readers.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Contessa said:

I agree. Despite the fact that Adolin won't be in the very forefront, with the desolation coming, and him being wrapped up in everything, he will obviously have more struggles to come. 

I know this has already been discussed to some length in other threads, and I hate to beat a dead horse, but I simply don't see Adolin as the lesser loved child. He may have had more responsibilities, and Renarin may have been given more slack in general from Dalinar, but I don't think it was because he was better loved. I think it was because, as we see so often, Dalinar views Adolin as very, very, similar to himself. Therefore, I think that Dalinar was afraid that his elder son would become a Blackthorn if he was too lenient. In my opinion, Adolin is a much better man than his father, especially during his Blackthorn days, and there isn't any chance of Adolin taking that route. But, I believe that's what Dalinar feared, and I think that fear will be triggered when Dalinar learns of what Adolin did at the end of WoR. 

No horse is ever dead enough not to beat on it  At least, not when I am concerned 

The reason I have been saying Adolin is the lesser loved child comes from two WoB. One is saying Dalinar indeed is too hard on Adolin and too lenient on others. This was asked to either confirm or infirm readers impressions Dalinar's behavior was not entirely fair with Adolin especially when compared to his behavior to Renarin/Elhokar. Brandon confirmed these weren't just impressions, but real. The other one is saying how young Adolin (as a child, he didn't specify how old) once was jealous of Renarin because he got all of the attention. This one came as a real shock to me as I never thought of Adolin as the jealous type, he never seemed jealous, especially not of his younger brother. While I did note how hard Dalinar was on him, how unloving he might come across from Adolin's perspective (not to say Dalinar does not love Adolin, but he hasn't been acting as if he did much), I never thought one moment Adolin might have actually been jealous of Renarin. I thought the opposite might have been possible, even if unstated within the book, but Adolin? Jealous? Of Renarin? And yet he was. Why? Because his parents gave Renarin more than they gave him or so was his perception.

Having two children of my own, I can comment on how easy it is for one to start clamoring I am favoring the other one, especially my eldest. Sometimes, when I ground her, she goes and says I love her brother more than I love her. I don't, but she misbehaves more than he does. As a parent, it is a very difficult line to walk on when you have a child demanding more attention than the other which is why I have absolutely no issues believing little Adolin did think his parents loved his younger brother more than they loved him. Why? Because being autistic, little Renarin likely demanded A LOT of attention which older, but calmer Adolin resented. 

Hence, it isn't I think Adolin really is the lesser loved child, but to his perspective he may very well be. I mean, I do think Dalinar loves Adolin. I do think shall something happen to Adolin, Dalinar would go raging mad and roar in white hot fury. I do think shall Dalinar witness Adolin actually physically hurting for real, he would take direct immediate action to make it stop, but I also do think Dalinar hasn't been very demonstrative of his love towards his eldest. I do think, to Adolin's eyes, he is the unworthy one. I mean, look at how lenient and forgiving Dalinar is towards Elhokar and look at how hard and unforgiving he is towards Adolin. Let's also look at how loving and doting he is with Renarin, giving him Shards he hasn't earned, when he wouldn't do the same for Adolin. It would take a very individual not to think his father actually loves him the least.

Thus, when I say he was the "lesser loved child", I mean from his perspective as, from his perspective, it is impossible to say Dalinar loves him at least as much as he loves Renarin and more importantly Elhokar. Adolin definitely grew up with issues when it comes to relationships. He is afraid, afraid of not being good enough, how can it happen if his parents had been so loving towards him? I say it happened because little Adolin grew up thinking if he wasn't good enough to be loved unless he did everything he was told to do.

I may not be entirely right, but I do think some of what I say is actually true. And yeah, I do think part of Dalinar's behavior is tied to him being afraid his son would follow his steps, but this isn't a rational fear. Adolin is nothing like the man he once was.

1 hour ago, Nathrangking said:

I think that it is a leap to say that Adolin will end up being a traitor. His story is fascinating in that in contrast to so many damaged, ineffective or broken characters he is someone who is relatively well off and yet stumbles. He can very well serve as a study of what it means to be human. Yeah as others have said he seems to suffer less, but at the same time those who suffer too much are not humans. They are caricatures who propel the story, but allow very little in the way of introspection. Instead of saying that he is doomed to turn on everyone perhaps we can wait and see what mirror he may provide for the readers.

I have sometimes said Adolin was more realistic because his struggles were more akin to the ones real-life people would go through whereas both Kaladin and Shallan's pasts are so horrific, it is harder to relate to them. Then again many readers relate to Kaladin being depressive, but the scope of what he lived through just doesn't compare for most people within real-life. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

I have sometimes said Adolin was more realistic because his struggles were more akin to the ones real-life people would go through whereas both Kaladin and Shallan's pasts are so horrific, it is harder to relate to them. Then again many readers relate to Kaladin being depressive, but the scope of what he lived through just doesn't compare for most people within real-life. 

The comparison may not be a perfect one, but in some ways that allows it to retain an air of distance while at the same time it is able to be relevant. While some might relate to specific factors like Kaladin's depression the overall picture reads of caricature's.

[Contessa she/her]

20 hours ago, maxal said:

Hence, it isn't I think Adolin really is the lesser loved child, but to his perspective he may very well be. I mean, I do think Dalinar loves Adolin. I do think shall something happen to Adolin, Dalinar would go raging mad and roar in white hot fury. I do think shall Dalinar witness Adolin actually physically hurting for real, he would take direct immediate action to make it stop, but I also do think Dalinar hasn't been very demonstrative of his love towards his eldest. I do think, to Adolin's eyes, he is the unworthy one. I mean, look at how lenient and forgiving Dalinar is towards Elhokar and look at how hard and unforgiving he is towards Adolin. Let's also look at how loving and doting he is with Renarin, giving him Shards he hasn't earned, when he wouldn't do the same for Adolin. It would take a very individual not to think his father actually loves him the least.

Thus, when I say he was the "lesser loved child", I mean from his perspective as, from his perspective, it is impossible to say Dalinar loves him at least as much as he loves Renarin and more importantly Elhokar. Adolin definitely grew up with issues when it comes to relationships. He is afraid, afraid of not being good enough, how can it happen if his parents had been so loving towards him? I say it happened because little Adolin grew up thinking if he wasn't good enough to be loved unless he did everything he was told to do.

On these points, I can agree wholeheartedly, especially after you mentioned the WoB (which I hadn't previously seen). As a side note, the way Brandon has set up  Adolin's relationship issues is what makes the Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin love triangle so compelling, in my mind. Whenever I read Adolin telling Kaladin "I really want to keep this one," my resolve for Kaladin/Shallan shrinks considerably. But that's a tangent. Suffice to say, I agree. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Contessa

[Guest]

On 5.8.2017 at 4:52 PM, maxal said:

Why does it bother so many readers if Adolin were to become a Radiant?

Because he is a Kholin. Simple as that. I'd rather see many different Radiants, than House Kholin and those others. It's bad enough, that Dalinar is the de facto leader of the Radiants. At least in my eyes.

On Adolin:

I don't think, he will do a 180 and turn evil, but I also think, that he won't become a Radiant. I'll tell why later.

The thing with the murder of Sadeas is, that, though justified, it brought Dalinar in a very precarious position. We know that, by Alethi standards, Adolin's actions were nothing exceptional due to their competitive nature. Then again, Dalinar is supposed to unite, which goes exactly against Alethi standards. I think, that either Renarin finds out or Adolin himself just confesses to his father. Dalinar will be forced to choose: Either protect his own son or bring him to trial as an example. I don't know how he will choose, but I think it most likely, that he is going to bring Adolin to trial. To show, that he won't tolerate interpersonal murders between Alethi. Obviously, this will nag Adolin. Further strengthening his self-doubts, when he, once again, in his eyes, disappointed his father.

As for possible allies? Only Shallan and Kaladin come to mind. Maybe Renarin. Can't comment too much on him, he's too mysterious for me.

Shallan will want to stand by him, but he won't let her. He'll alieniate himself from her and possibly even break up his causal. He thinks he'll do it to shelter her from any political fallout, to not let her marry an disowned prince. Some stupid chivalric thing. But in reality he is just running away again, because he thinks he is not good enough for her, as he is already beginning to think.

Kaladin, I think, will return about the time, when the trial is taking place or Adolin already has been sentenced to what ever punishment he's given (I think being disowned and exiled). Kaladin will try to protect him in accordance to his oaths, but using words instead of force. Adolin will have resignated and take the punishment.

I don't think Adolin will turn evil, but he will go on a downward spiral of negative emotions - maybe even become depressive.

He probably attract spren, who will want to bond with him, but he won't let it happen. His doubts of worthiness will be too big. That is why I think he won't become a Radiant.

Hard times are coming up for Adolin, but he most definitely won't become traitorous.

Edited August 7, 2017 by SLNC

[Vissy]

Adolin will not be a traitor in a million years. It would be a complete 180 for his character. And he's smart enough not to be duped into being a traitor.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Because he is a Kholin. Simple as that. I'd rather see many different Radiants, than House Kholin and those others. It's bad enough, that Dalinar is the de facto leader of the Radiants. At least in my eyes.

On Adolin:

I don't think, he will do a 180 and turn evil, but I also think, that he won't become a Radiant. I'll tell why later.

The thing with the murder of Sadeas is, that, though justified, it brought Dalinar in a very precarious position. We know that, by Alethi standards, Adolin's actions were nothing exceptional due to their competitive nature. Then again, Dalinar is supposed to unite, which goes exactly against Alethi standards. I think, that either Renarin finds out or Adolin himself just confesses to his father. Dalinar will be forced to choose: Either protect his own son or bring him to trial as an example. I don't know how he will choose, but I think it most likely, that he is going to bring Adolin to trial. To show, that he won't tolerate interpersonal murders between Alethi. Obviously, this will nag Adolin. Further strengthening his self-doubts, when he, once again, in his eyes, disappointed his father.

As for possible allies? Only Shallan and Kaladin come to mind. Maybe Renarin. Can't comment too much on him, he's too mysterious for me.

Shallan will want to stand by him, but he won't let her. He'll alieniate himself from her and possibly even break up his causal. He thinks he'll do it to shelter her from any political fallout, to not let her marry an disowned prince. Some stupid chivalric thing. But in reality he is just running away again, because he thinks he is not good enough for her, as he is already beginning to think.

Kaladin, I think, will return about the time, when the trial is taking place or Adolin already has been sentenced to what ever punishment he's given (I think being disowned and exiled). Kaladin will try to protect him in accordance to his oaths, but using words instead of force. Adolin will have resignated and take the punishment.

I don't think Adolin will turn evil, but he will go on a downward spiral of negative emotions - maybe even become depressive.

He probably attract spren, who will want to bond with him, but he won't let it happen. His doubts of worthiness will be too big. That is why I think he won't become a Radiant.

Hard times are coming up for Adolin, but he most definitely won't become traitorous.

I actually agree with most of what you say, but I disagree onto the foregone conclusion. I do agree Adolin's weakness is his sense of self-worth, his fears he might disappoint his father and, if I am right, it may all be linked to how he perceived his education. In shorts, Adolin unconsciously feels he isn't worthy of being loved unless he behaves perfectly. When he perceives he failed his father, it will harm him.

I do agree Dalinar wanting to unite seems to imply he will have to punish his son. Harshly. As far as we can tell, Dalinar believes it is Alethkar he needs to unite and he believes Sadeas ought to be remain a part of it (even if he was the one threatening the unity, not Adolin). He will be angry at Adolin and he will think he is harming his goal, though I personally think it will turned out Adolin helped. It may be one of Dalinar's future oath will have to do about realizing you can't unite people who refuses to be united, you can't force it. You can work towards it, but you cannot force it to happen. I see it as an oath which would completely invalidate what the Blackthorn has done, what Gavilar was trying to accomplish. Uniting instead of dividing it vague: it can be achieved throughout several means, not all honorable nor morally right, a weakness I hope the next oath will counter-act. My best guess would be Dalinar has to learn he cannot force unity, which he already knows, but he will need to take it a step further: if Sadeas doesn't want to be united, then Dalinar cannot force him. If he is threatening the unity, then he has to go. I sincerely hope the key will lie into the next oath.

In the meant time, Dalinar will go very hard onto his eldest son. Adolin is highly likely to sabotage every single one of this relationships and spiral down into negativeness or do the opposite and over-work himself. Whichever, he will fall into the excesses. He will feel unworthy and probably end up thinking he has to go if his family is to succeed. 

This is where I think Dalinar will temporarily get it wrong: he can't unite the world if he has divided his family. He will need to make peace with his son, to protect him and to guide him out of his bad place as family is supposed to. Family is supposed to be there for you when you aren't feeling right. 

Where I disagree is Adolin, shall he attract a spren, would refuse to progress, thinking he is unworthy. I don't disagree with all of it as I do think Adolin will revive his Blade, so he won't attract a random spren. I agree Adolin is highly likely to become a very reluctant Radiant, not wanting to progress, not wanting out of feeling he does not deserve it, but I can't see it as the definite conclusion for his character arc. I mean, reading three books of Adolin feeling unworthy and not progressing will rapidly get repetitive which is why I think your speculation makes sense within the short term, but not the long term. Adolin's character needs to get resolution, character arcs work because there is resolution, so resolution he will get. He will work on his issues or die or fall to never rise up again if Brandon feels like going dark or grim but this hasn't been his style so far.

I will also comment on Dalinar being the defacto leader of the Radiants: we do not know that yet. We are assuming it will be the case, but we haven't read the story yet. We should keep in mind it may be Dalinar will die or fail.

As for the Radiants, the story follows house Kholin, not the other houses. Our main characters are taken out of house Kholin, not the other houses. So unless Brandon starts to remove known characters from the list of characters we are reading in order to add other characters from other houses, then yes, most of our Radiants will be Kholins, not because other houses won't attract them, but because this house has been trying to better itself whereas the others are still pettily fighting. It is obvious Brandon wants to center his story around this house, he explained why its members would be more easily chosen. Adolin is a member of house Kholin: I have no issues with him becoming a Radiant, I have more issues with him not becoming a Radiant as I feel it would yield a static character denied of progression. Why are we even reading Adolin if he isn't to progress, to evolve, to change, to be worth reading? Something will happen to his character for the simple reason we are reading him. 

[geralt]

2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Adolin will not be a traitor in a million years. It would be a complete 180 for his character. And he's smart enough not to be duped into being a traitor.

I'm firmly on the "Adolin is not turning evil" camp as well, but at the same time I think Brandon could definitely take him some interesting route if he wanted to without denaturing the character. For example, I imagine the feeling of anxiety he may feel towards the killing of Sadeas and the hiding of the crime (especially if someone else is blamed for it) paired up with the sentiment of suddenly being left behind by everybody around him would definitely hit him hard. Add to that a falling out with either Dalinar or Shallan and it wouldn't be so out of character for him to do something "crazy"

Personally, I don't find either of the two most discussed theories regarding Adolin that exciting, namely the "He becomes Odium's Champion" or "He becomes a Radiant". I think it would be more interesting if by feeling ostracised by his family and friends, he'd decide to leave on his own and embark on a unique path, like maybe discover some other power like the Old Magic or even join one of the secret societies. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by geralt

[Guest]

4 hours ago, geralt said:

I'm firmly on the "Adolin is not turning evil" camp as well, but at the same time I think Brandon could definitely take him some interesting route if he wanted to without denaturing the character. For example, I imagine the feeling of anxiety he may feel towards the killing of Sadeas and the hiding of the crime (especially if someone else is blamed for it) paired up with the sentiment of suddenly being left behind by everybody around him would definitely hit him hard. Add to that a falling out with either Dalinar or Shallan and it wouldn't be so out of character for him to do something "crazy"

Personally, I don't find either of the two most discussed theories regarding Adolin that exciting, namely the "He becomes Odium's Champion" or "He becomes a Radiant". I think it would be more interesting if by feeling ostracised by his family and friends, he'd decide to leave on his own and embark on a unique path, like maybe discover some other power like the Old Magic or even join one of the secret societies. 

Doing something crazy does not imply doing something evil which is where, I think, many readers are getting it wrong. Many agree things are likely to go bad for Adolin, many agree his behavior might not be stellar and he might make a few bad decisions, but I think none of those will steer him towards evil.

I know a lot of readers dislike having Adolin become a Radiant out of thinking it is too contrived within the existing narrative, because main characters are Radiants, especially the Kholins. Personally, I feel the blame is ill-placed. The problem is not Adolin potentially becoming a Radiant, the problem is Brandon chose every single Kholin Radiants as focused characters. I am sure the sentient wouldn't be so negative if Brandon had told us Renarin and Jasnah were to be minor KR as opposed to major players as no matter were Brandon puts Adolin onto his chart, he reads as a pretty major player so far. So huh, there's that to consider. 

Back to Adolin's character growth, my take remains the same. We aren't reading him for nothing: he hasn't gotten the page time has had for no reason. You don't give static characters page time, you don't spend time developing them so while it may be Adolin was a static character, back within the original planning, he isn't anymore. His character went through a massive change arc and something will happen out of it. Where we all seem to have conflicting opinions is what this something may be.

One of my major problems with Adolin as a "normal dude" is I feel it completely trumps his character development not to forget there is no rational for him not being a Radiant. Knowing what we know, unless Adolin never breaks down, unless he remains a static character, him never being chosen is not only highly improbable, it is practically impossible. It may be why many are arguing Adolin out "to stay the same" and "do what he has been doing" without any major change nor impact in order to justify him never becoming a Radiant. This however doesn't work within the existing narrative as unfortunately for the "Adolin as the normal dude" followers, his character just went through a change arc. He won't stay the same. Things will never be the same. What he will become remains unknown, but he will not be the same man we have been reading for two books. Mind, he won't do a 180, but he will either adapt or sink and how he'll come together as a new man within this new world is bond to be different from careless smiling endlessly dating dashing prince Adolin. WoR has progressively killed this young image of Adolin, slowly destroying it and now, there is no going back, not for him. He will never be this person ever again.

So could he remain a "normal dude" while changing? I guess it isn't impossible, but it doesn't fit within the narrative. If Adolin changes, he breaks, if he breaks, then sprens will eventually choose him unless he turns out being an unworthy human being. Problem is, we know he isn't, so while Brandon might plop out a narrative where this realistically happen, it still doesn't answer the question of where is he going? If he is not becoming a Radiant, if he is never reviving his Blade (and we can wager using dead-Blades will eventually be heavily shunned upon as Radiants start to outnumber the former Shardbearers: Adolin's days as a Shardbearers are coming to end, either ways, not to forget he probably won't want to use his Blade out of respect for it once he learns the truth), then was is he to become? Again, he could become nothing interesting, but if this were the case, then why are we reading him? Characters such as Elhokar are allowed to never become anything, because we aren't reading them, but Adolin?

Could him walking away within the wide world serve as "something to do"? It could, if we were reading another story, but how does wandering Adolin even begins to fit within the existing story? There is no page time to be wasted on a travelling character not to forget Brandon did say he wouldn't feature travels within his story: most action taking place into known locations. We won't travel. There will not be teams of travelling characters. Adolin will not be roaming across Roshar, either in exile or not: this is not happening and even if it did, it would be pointless. Brandon will not waste page time on a character he intends to send into a long bus ride nor will he feature it. He will not further divide his viewpoint characters: Adolin will stay where the others are and if he moves, he will move with the others.

Joining secret societies? They are all evil, they all oppose his family. Within which world will Adolin purposefully joins one? The one rational I could make is if Dalinar kicks him out, someone like Taranvangian picks him up and gives him a purpose, a wife (Danlan) and a new family, hoping to use him as he once planned to use the Blackthorn, but this is short-lived story arc. As soon as Adolin learns the truth, he'll bold out: he is no Blackthorn, he will never agree killing innocents is necessary. He will never believe in the Diagram: Adolin doesn't give credence to written books more than they deserve. He isn't a blind follower.  So again, what purpose is there in Adolin joining a secret society other than giving him something to do? Come to think of it, this isn't a bad side arc... He could steal the Diagram and bring it back to his father, but huh that's only a short arc. I am thinking more long-term here.

I also really don't picture Adolin as the one character to uncover old magic or something along those lines. This is definitely OOC for his character. I mean, this is a story arc which would have worked for Renarin's character, much better than giving him super-powers just because he is disabled, but Adolin? Again, wrong character. He isn't an explorer nor a discoverer. He is ill-suited for this task.

So yeah, I see about three real possibilities for his character: reviving his Blade, dying young or the bitter-sweet ending... The one where he disappears. He goes away within the year gap in between book 3 and 4. He leaves, heart-broken, damaged probably beyond repairs, he can't fight anymore (he isn't a warrior, the Desolation finishes breaking him) and he goes to world-ends, trying to make a new life which huh just writing it I must admit I am bored. Sounds like something Robin Hobb would write... not Brandon Sanderson. Brandon will destroy Adolin if he thinks it makes the better story, but he will give him a way to climb back up, he will give him a purpose, even if it ends in his death.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

 He goes away within the year gap in between book 3 and 4. 

What year gap is this? Never heard about it before.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

What year gap is this? Never heard about it before.

Apparently there is a one year gap, in-world, in between book 3 and 4. As much as I hate the idea, it does open a door for Adolin's story arc to end in a really bittersweet way: with him being exiled or purposefully leaving, heartbroken, to seek his chance elsewhere. Book 4 would take him near the end of his faraway journey. It would happen off-book. I guess it is a possibility, though I recall beta readers saying the ending was sweet... Adolin leaving is not sweet, so huh we'll have to wait and see.

[+Extesian he/him]

I just saw this WoB for what feels like the first time. It's from Krakow

Quote

Q: Will Dalinar punish Adolin for killing Sadeas?
A: He doesn’t know. Nobody knows… If he knew, he’d probably will.

I mean it's nothing huge but it indicates Dalinar would be likely to punish Adolin. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

I don't know that I would be interested to see him turn. There may be moments where he acts selfless or caring, but overall he is no more or no less of a candidate than anyone else. The only reason conceivably why it would matter to have him turn is shock. Personally I don't care enough about him as a character to be bothered by a turn on his part. He does not really inspire my sympathy, because he is not really that different from the average alethi noble. It would not effect me in any way to see him undergo a transformation to evil. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

I just saw this WoB for what feels like the first time. It's from Krakow

I mean it's nothing huge but it indicates Dalinar would be likely to punish Adolin. 

I read this WoB a while ago. It gives us two clues:

1) There was no witness to the murder. People have been arguing there might have been a witness we haven't seen. It was plausible, but now we know there was none.

2) Dalinar will punish Adolin if he finds out. It is good to note Brandon doesn't say Dalinar will punish Adolin, but instead prefers to say he would probably do it, if he ever learns about it. In shorts, Brandon is allowing wiggle room for Dalinar never to find out which I doubt will happen, but Brandon did say it.

I rate this WoB as a nice to have, but doesn't add much.

1 hour ago, Nathrangking said:

I don't know that I would be interested to see him turn. There may be moments where he acts selfless or caring, but overall he is no more or no less of a candidate than anyone else. The only reason conceivably why it would matter to have him turn is shock. Personally I don't care enough about him as a character to be bothered by a turn on his part. He does not really inspire my sympathy, because he is not really that different from the average alethi noble. It would not effect me in any way to see him undergo a transformation to evil. 

I am very invested within Adolin's character and him turning evil would seem like a 180 turn for his character, so out-of-character, I will probably not believe it is even plausible.

[+Extesian he/him]

Oh I completely agree @maxal, all it gives us is to confirm that Dalinar would tend to punish him rather than being the type off Dad to protect him. At most, nice to have. But still, nice to have

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Oh I completely agree @maxal, all it gives us is to confirm that Dalinar would tend to punish him rather than being the type off Dad to protect him. At most, nice to have. But still, nice to have

I have been saying for over two years now Dalinar hasn't been a forgiving father towards Adolin. His first instincts will be to severely punish his son. I however hope he will discover himself some fatherly instinct throughout Adolin's ordeal and learn how to forgive him before it is too late. One of my worst fear is seeing Adolin and Dalinar grow so far apart then can never interact ever again. I fear Dalinar will break so many bridges in between him and his son, he will loose him forever. I also fear Adolin will rebel so strongly against his father, he won't be able to "come back".

So many worries 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I read this WoB a while ago. It gives us two clues:

1) There was no witness to the murder. People have been arguing there might have been a witness we haven't seen. It was plausible, but now we know there was none.

2) Dalinar will punish Adolin if he finds out. It is good to note Brandon doesn't say Dalinar will punish Adolin, but instead prefers to say he would probably do it, if he ever learns about it. In shorts, Brandon is allowing wiggle room for Dalinar never to find out which I doubt will happen, but Brandon did say it.

I rate this WoB as a nice to have, but doesn't add much.

Ah, but it does.

First of all, I think Dalinar is going to find out some way or another. This plot point is wayyy too juicy to just... forget. Either Adolin will break down from guilt and tell Dalinar or someone else will find something out and piece it together. There may be no witnesses, but there are other ways of investigation - even on accident.

But the second point, is much worse IMHO. It shows, that Dalinar would sacrifice his eldest son, his first-born, his heir to further his own agenda of creating unity. Using him to set an example, even if he wouldn't have to, like if either Adolin or Renarin tell him about it. It always looks like Dalinar is honorable, but in reality he is an opportunist. He is honorable, when it suits his own agenda, but on the other hand he can also be extremely ruthless. Sickenly so.

[Rhaegar'Elin he/him]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

But the second point, is much worse IMHO. It shows, that Dalinar would sacrifice his eldest son, his first-born, his heir to further his own agenda of creating unity. Using him to set an example, even if he wouldn't have to, like if either Adolin or Renarin tell him about it. It always looks like Dalinar is honorable, but in reality he is an opportunist. He is honorable, when it suits his own agenda, but on the other hand he can also be extremely ruthless. Sickenly so.

I strongly disagree with your interpretation.

Dalinar is an honorable man because he follows a code of honor (a set of implicit rules that define his duties in a social group) and he followed it always, regardless of what he had to gain or lose, even when the honorable route wasn't the easy one.

In the eventuality he will discover Adolin's actions, honor will require to judge his own son like he would judge anybody: I'm pretty sure, however, that Dalinar will go harsher on him in order to restore the Kholin's honor in the eyes of the Highprinces.

This decision would be despicable if judged by our own ethical and moral principles (where the father is supposed to shelter his sons) but it is still an honorable one. Honor is a tricky subject and it's distinct from morals and ethics, sometimes even in conflict with them... like well shown in A Song of Ice and Fire series, especially in

Spoiler

Jaime Lannister's actions.

So, in the end, it's all a matter of perspective, in the same way Abraham's actions in the biblical tale of Isaac's Sacrifice could be seen as despicable (by moral principles) or commendable (by faith principles).

In conclusion, I really don't see Dalinar as an opportunist. According to the dictionary, an opportunist is "a person who practices opportunism, or the policy of adapting actions, decisions, etc., to effectiveness regardless of the sacrifice of ethical principles" (but I would add also honor principles, because we are talking of an honor society). That's not Dalinar: he doesn't change his behavior, he doesn't forfeit his honor in order to gain something. He simply acts according his own honor code despite of the consequences... because Adolin's punishment could easily backfire in the greater scheme of uniting Alethkar.

---

More on topic, I can't see Adolin as a traitor. So far, he has always acted keeping in mind his family (when he kills Sadeas) or his friends (when he goes in jail for Kaladin): I really can't believe he would betray them.   

[Guest]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

Ah, but it does.

First of all, I think Dalinar is going to find out some way or another. This plot point is wayyy too juicy to just... forget. Either Adolin will break down from guilt and tell Dalinar or someone else will find something out and piece it together. There may be no witnesses, but there are other ways of investigation - even on accident.

But the second point, is much worse IMHO. It shows, that Dalinar would sacrifice his eldest son, his first-born, his heir to further his own agenda of creating unity. Using him to set an example, even if he wouldn't have to, like if either Adolin or Renarin tell him about it. It always looks like Dalinar is honorable, but in reality he is an opportunist. He is honorable, when it suits his own agenda, but on the other hand he can also be extremely ruthless. Sickenly so.

You are giving me the creeps this morning... I never doubted one second Dalinar would not sacrifice his eldest son in the name of what he believes must be unity. I never doubted Dalinar would go harsher on Adolin because he is his son and he feels he needs to make an example of him. I don't however think the WoB tells us he'll go this far as it merely says he will probably punish Adolin: punishment can take many forms, but yeah, I do agree with you. I have always thought Dalinar would go sickeningly hard on Adolin, because it is Adolin. Had it been Elhokar or Renarin, things would have been so much different.

3 hours ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

In the eventuality he will discover Adolin's actions, honor will require to judge his own son like he would judge anybody: I'm pretty sure, however, that Dalinar will go harsher on him in order to restore the Kholin's honor in the eyes of the Highprinces.

That's the problem. Many of us believe Dalinar will not merely punish Adolin, he'll make an example out of him, thus using him to further cement his position as moral authority. I however arguably believe one can be too honorable and going above and beyond what is required: by punishing Adolin too harshly, Dalinar stops being honorable and yeah can be seen as opportunist. In shorts, if Dalinar thinks he can use his son to gain political capital, then it definitely makes him an opportunist.

A good ruler/leader has to know when to be hard and when to be lenient. He has to know when to push and when to back down. If Dalinar, through his personal flaws, destroys his family unity by throwing Adolin out of it in ways which prevent him from ever redeeming himself, he will then make the firm statement loyalty, fealty and personal sacrifice are not to be rewarded within his new world. He will be making the statement his word is law and those going against it will suffer the worst of punishment as if Dalinar can do this to his own son, what will he do to others?

I thus say while yes, Dalinar cannot give a free pass out of consequences to Adolin, he has to drop his penchant towards protecting Sadeas. He has to treat Sadeas as the villain and judge Adolin's actions based on the fact the man he killed was a traitor. He must not decide Sadeas's life is worth more than Adolin's as all he'll accomplish is further cement class differences by stating Sadeas was untouchable because of his status as a Highprince.

And yeah, a father should protect his sons, when they deserve to be protected and sheltered. He should also punish them when they deserve it. Adolin has never been anything but obedient and loyal to Dalinar: the man he killed wasn't a rainbow colored unicorn. It would be about time for Dalinar to take a plunge and actually shows he values his eldest's son life.

[Calderis he/him]

Dalinar is not an opportunist. That requires a mental flexibility that he severely lacks. 

Yes he would go harder on Adolin than anyone else, but that's purely because of his expectations of Adolin, not politics. 

A person who was opportunistic politically would be more skilled in Alethi politics than Dalinar. They wouldn't have allowed the openings that Dalinar handed to Sadeas. 

Rigidity and opportunism are completely incompatible, and we know which of the two Dalinar is. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

If someone wants a great example of opportunism, look no further than (ASoIaF spoilers):

Spoiler

Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish

On a more Brandon-related note, Sadeas feels pretty opportunistic as well.