What really broke Shallan?

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

So I got to thinking about how Shallan was a surgebinder from a young age, even before her flashbacks start. According to Brandon (#8 and #14) the principle of snapping to open up cracks in the soul is Cosmere wide and across magic systems, which means that Shallan would have to have been broken enough for a Nahel bond even before her flashbacks reveal how horrible her life was. So my question is, do we have any hints as to what could have broken her before her mother's death? She had progressed quite far in the bond, IIRC, so it wasn't just right before her mother's death.

[+hwiles He/Him]

11 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

So I got to thinking about how Shallan was a surgebinder from a young age, even before her flashbacks start. According to Brandon (#8 and #14) the principle of snapping to open up cracks in the soul is Cosmere wide and across magic systems, which means that Shallan would have to have been broken enough for a Nahel bond even before her flashbacks reveal how horrible her life was. So my question is, do we have any hints as to what could have broken her before her mother's death? She had progressed quite far in the bond, IIRC, so it wasn't just right before her mother's death.

Your instincts are good, there was almost certainly something weird going on with Shallans mom, but we dont know what it was she was involved in. This was deliberately obfusicated in the flashbacks, presumably for a later reveal.

What broke Shallan? It could've been anything. Kelsier spent 40 years as a criminal culminating in 6 months of daily torture and struggle to survive and didn't snap until he was forced to watch his wife get brutally murdered. Vin and her sister snapped during birth; despite the birth being described as "difficult," there were few enough complications that the infant Vin was able to be adequately cared for by a lone teenage boy living on the street, meaning she must have been relatively healthy. The threshold for cracking a soul is completely specific to individuals, and therefore, essentially arbitrary.

[Calderis he/him]

Well her mother was apparently ready to kill her as a child, so I doubt it was all shiny happy times no matter what Shallan believes

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

And I agree that her life wasn't peachy, but I'm just skeptical as to how much of that she was aware of before the "event" if you will. It's likely she bonded to Pattern before her mother was aware of it. She had to be broken before her mother was willing to kill her.

[Calderis he/him]

My point was that although the actual attempt on Shallan's life was due to her interactions with Pattern and her powers, the type of mother that would be willing to kill her child would most likely be abusive in other ways both emotionally and physically. 

The younger a child is experiencing abusive treatment, the more intense and long lasting the psychological damage is. To have gained pattern as young as she was, and to have no clear memories of her childhood at all, I don't think we need a clear "event" to have happened. Her mother was "event" enough. 

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

I see what you mean, but I was under the impression that her mother wanted to kill her because she was a surgebinder. There could be any number of motivations for that. I agree that Shallan's mother was a terrible person- there's no debating that! I can't remember Shallan having hateful thoughts about her mother, but I know that abused people often have skewed views of their abusers, so that's not proof of anything. My interpretation was that there was a sudden change in Shallan's mother when she discovered Shallans abilities.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Well, Shallan didn't need to be "broken" off the bat to find a spren. There is a second way of attracting a Spren: Having someone else in your family bonded to a Spren.

 

WOB about why so many Kolin folk have bonded Spren answered that Spren can be attracted to areas where other people have bonded Spren. If Shallan's brother or mother had already bonded Spren before, then Pattern may have been pulled in that direction and taken an interest in Shallan. We are fairly certain Shallan's brother had access to surges in someway, and Shallan's mother was very informed it seemed concerning the return of the spren. 

Cracks help let in a Spren, but that is not the only way a Spren can decide to stick with you. Shallan may have just been a lonely child with enough of a crack to allow in a Spren, or perhaps children function differently in some way. I do tend to think Shallan slowly let in a spren and had a spren seep in slowly. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Well, Shallan didn't need to be "broken" off the bat to find a spren. There is a second way of attracting a Spren: Having someone else in your family bonded to a Spren.

 

WOB a out why so many Kolin folk have bonded Spren answered that Spren can be attracted to areas where other people have bonded Spren. If Shallan's brother or mother had already bonded Spren before, then Pattern may have been pulled in that direction and taken an interest in Shallan. Cracks help let in a Spren, but that is not the only way a Spren can decide to stick with you. Shallan may have just been a lonely child with enough of a crack to allow in a Spren, or perhaps children function differently in some way. 

It makes it more likely to attract a spren, but the cracks in the soul are a requirement to form a bond. 

Every person who forms a bond has to have them. Without the cracks, the bond can't form, because the Spren and surgebinders souls won't be connected properly. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Calderis

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It makes it more likely to attract a spren, but the cracks in the soul are a requirement to form a bond. 

Every person who forms a bond has to have them. Without the, the bond can't form, because the Spren and surgebinders souls won't be connected properly. 

True, but how easy is it to form cracks? A sad lonely girl, is that enough? Renarin being exceptionally wealthy and educated but pitied seems to be enough? Or maybe his autism and blood weakness could help?

It would make sense if larger cracks made bonding easier, but small cracks would still work if the spren had strong enough reasons to stick around and put in the work. 

 

Unrelated: It would be cool if Renarin's blood sickness gave him access to powers from Silence Divine in some manner! I want a crossover! 

Edited July 20, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

True, but how easy is it to form cracks? A sad lonely girl, is that enough? Renarin being exceptionally wealthy and educated but pitied seems to be enough? 

I think think it varies by the individual honestly. Both of my original comments on this question were about how her hinted at home life were probably more than enough. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

I think think it varies by the individual honestly. Both of my original comments on this question were about how her hinted at home life were probably more than enough. 

I really don't get the impression her Homelife was horrid before the business with her mother and the spren but it doesn't seem like a fulfilling home either. There doesn't seem to be much room for adding other trauma's to her life, unless someone outside the family did something, but the sexual-abuse angle seems to be hinted about Jasnah and not at all toward Shallan. 

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

I really don't get the impression her Homelife was horrid before the business with her mother and the spren but it doesn't seem like a fulfilling home either. There doesn't seem to be much room for adding other trauma's to her life, unless someone outside the family did something, but the sexual-abuse angle seems to be hinted about Jasnah and not at all toward Shallan. 

That's not what I meant to imply at all. I just think a mother able to bring herself to attempt to take her own child's life probably wasn't the most conducive to a healthy development in a child. 

And as young as Shallan was, a nonghealthy mental development was probably enough to form the needed cracks. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's not what I meant to imply at all. I just think a mother able to bring herself to attempt to take her own child's life probably wasn't the most conducive to a healthy development in a child. 

And as young as Shallan was, a nonghealthy mental development was probably enough to form the needed cracks. 

This brings up so many issues though - Shallan was so young she probably didn't even have a rheubric for comparison - the way her mother and father acted would have been completely normal to her. Shallan's family was also pretty wealthy and she had a good relationship with her brothers it seems before they all went wacko or abandoned her. Her life seemed fine enough back then, and while all childhoods are imperfect, hers seems OK enough considering she lived in what was essentially Medieval Times. Royal households weren't exactly known for their loving environment, and normal is so relative to people who grew up in those environments.

Shallan may have sensed enough to be mopey, but why would she have more of a broken soul than someone forced to work in a mine at the age of 7, or buried a parent, or lost an arm? Actually, minus maybe Lift (maybe), all of the surge binders have been wealthy or upper-middle class? Is surge binding correlated with education and dissatisfaction? 

Anywho, it seems like she mooched her bond off of the existing bond her brother likely had. Though, if he were broken then the family has deeper rooted historical problems most likely

Edited July 20, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

This brings up so many issues though - Shallan was so young she probably didn't even have a rheubric for comparison - the way her mother and father acted would have been completely normal to her. Shallan's family was also pretty wealthy and she had a good relationship with her brothers it seems before they all went wacko or abandoned her. Her life seemed fine enough back then, and while all childhoods are imperfect, hers seems OK enough considering she lived in what was essentially Medieval Times. 

We know literally nothing of her life before her mother's death, other than the idealized lie she tells herself should have been. 

Her father never speaks of before. Her brothers don't. She doesn't. 

I think that her life with the angry abusive father was, at least in the beginning, better than what happened before. It's pure speculation, but I think her father at his worst, near the end, was probably a similar environment to how things were before. 

The only person who seems unbroken in the House is Heleran, and we don't see enough of him to judge honestly. 

Balat is a wreck. Jushu is a wreck. Wikim is probably the most stable of them and he's prone to suicidal depression. 

These are not the children produced by a healthy and loving home life. At lease not without a very strong history of mental illness. 

I think that Shallan's Mother was probably a train wreck who broke all of her children.

[teknopathetic he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The only person who seems unbroken in the House is Heleran, and we don't see enough of him to judge honestly. 

Odd, right? As he is heavily implied to be aware of surges in some way, and other characters think he likely mentored his sister. The character least broken (from the outside) is the most likely in-universe to be a surge binder... Maybe his spren gave him hope or something, but still...

So many things about that family don't add up. Maybe the sprinkle of Horneater blood makes it easier to bond? So weird...

Edited July 20, 2017 by teknopathetic

[AndrolGenhald]

19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

We are fairly certain Shallan's brother had access to surges in someway

Why do we think Helaran had access to surges? His plate and blade were clearly "dead", he shouldn't have been able to touch them without hearing screams if he had a Nahel bond.

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, AndrolGenhald said:

Why do we think Helaran had access to surges? His plate and blade were clearly "dead", he shouldn't have been able to touch them without hearing screams if he had a Nahel bond.

We're not "certain" it's an unproven theory that some people have, based completely off of the mention of Heleran having been mentioned in by Taravangian as possibly training her, and another entry (was it from Mraize?) asking why he sought out the Skybreakers. 

There's currently no way to prove or disprove it, but it's in no way certain. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Calderis

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

So after sleeping on the question, I have to say that I believe @Calderis is probably spot on about her parents being enough at a young age simply because just about everyone was very ready to believe that Shallan's father killed her mother and the other guy. her siblings are absolutely convinced, and dismiss Shallan's defense of her father's innocence. So I'm now willing to believe that her early childhood is cause enough for her to snap unless something new pops up.

[Contessa she/her]

On July 20, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Calderis said:

The only person who seems unbroken in the House is Heleran, and we don't see enough of him to judge honestly. 

As we know from Shallan, and arguably some other characters who are known to have a spren, there are ways of hiding that you are broken. Shallan is perhaps not the best example, because of the fact that her spren specializes in, and was attracted to, the lies she formed regarding her breaks. However, I agree that we have not seen enough of Heleran to decide whether or not he's been broken. 

[Kaladin Zahel]

This probably isn't going to be very helpful, but I don't think we can take anything we know about Shallan at face value.

Her entire storyline is about her hiding from the truth. She has bonded a lie spren.

Perhaps the only things we can believe with certainty are the moments where Pattern affirms her story in the present.

And just like Kaladin's self doubt and depression, some things that are 'true' to an individual internally are not fact. So many of Shallan's internal thoughts, recollections, and decisions are lies that she believes or beliefs that she's created for self preservation but are not fact.

 

Slight conspiracy and tangent.

Amaram and Taravangian are heroes in their own stories but we think they are evil. We pity and like Shallan and believe she is a heroin in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps his Sandersonness is setting us up with a bait and switch here.

[FiveLate]

On 7/21/2017 at 0:32 PM, AndrolGenhald said:

Why do we think Helaran had access to surges? His plate and blade were clearly "dead", he shouldn't have been able to touch them without hearing screams if he had a Nahel bond.

I second this question.

Disregard.....I missed Calderis reply.

Edited August 16, 2017 by FiveLate
Clarification

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover he/him]

On 7/20/2017 at 5:33 PM, teknopathetic said:

Well, Shallan didn't need to be "broken" off the bat to find a spren. There is a second way of attracting a Spren: Having someone else in your family bonded to a Spren.

 

WOB about why so many Kolin folk have bonded Spren answered that Spren can be attracted to areas where other people have bonded Spren. If Shallan's brother or mother had already bonded Spren before, then Pattern may have been pulled in that direction and taken an interest in Shallan. We are fairly certain Shallan's brother had access to surges in someway, and Shallan's mother was very informed it seemed concerning the return of the spren. 

Cracks help let in a Spren, but that is not the only way a Spren can decide to stick with you. Shallan may have just been a lonely child with enough of a crack to allow in a Spren, or perhaps children function differently in some way. I do tend to think Shallan slowly let in a spren and had a spren seep in slowly. 

 

On 7/20/2017 at 5:38 PM, Calderis said:

It makes it more likely to attract a spren, but the cracks in the soul are a requirement to form a bond. 

Every person who forms a bond has to have them. Without the cracks, the bond can't form, because the Spren and surgebinders souls won't be connected properly. 

Another thing to consider is that if a person's soul, their Spiritual aspect, is about the idealized form of that person, a child would have a far more flexible spiritweb than that of an adult. As people grow and make choices, they begin to define themselves more and more, and the events and traumas that they experience are the things that create cracks in their spiritweb. A child has very limited experience compared to adults, and there's lots of potential to be influenced and decide how that want to be. That flexibility might make it easier to form a bond. I tend to agree that Shallan's mother's motivation reads as "Shallan is a Surgebinder and needs to die," and the cracks from that event may have even been what allowed Pattern to survive Shallan's memory block. I also think however that Shallan's inherent desire to learn and study may have been what drew Pattern to begin with, and the childish flexibility might have been enough to facilitate the bond. See the below WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219-words-of-radiance-philadelphia-signing/#e7890

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418

 

Lift is another example of a child forming a bond, and granted that she's definitely got more going on in her backstory than we know, that doesn't mean that it might not play a role. Are there any other young people that we know of that have suggestions along this line? Has it been confirmed that Tien was NOT a surgebinder? Or in some way interacting with spren beyond a normal-for-Roshar way?

Edited January 2, 2018 by Jhardin

[Calderis he/him]

@Jhardin that WoB from Houston has made me think that a child's soul is still forming, and allows the bond to form even without trauma since I first saw it

That said, I still don't think that Shallan was unmarred. A perfect childhood does not suddenly devolve into a parent attempting to kill their child. And every member of her family is a mess. 

Lift... She's an orphan who lost her mother and never knew her father. Again, being young may have made it easier, but she's definitely been through enough regardless. 

And no, Tien hasn't been confirmed one way or the other.