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New idea about the shard that's not on a planet...


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I really like the idea of autonomy being a star, but what if Brandon is misleading us to think that way. What if one of the shards (possibly the survival shard) is living in the CR? Like maybe residing in Silverlight. I don't remember hearing anything about shards using investiture being limited to the physical realm, so why not invest in the CR in an attempt to avoid conflict and survive? Please correct me if my idea is incorrect. It would be interesting to see a magic system that is completely CR based though.

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Magic systems based in the Cognitive Realm are found on Sel. There the Investiture of the splintered shards Devotion and Dominion has been stuffed into the Cognitive Realm where they make up the Dor, resulting in location dependent magic systems, since the Cognitive Realm is bound to the Physical Realm (at least where it is inhabited, uninhabited regions are somewhat compressed/warped in the CR). Shards usually transcend all three realms and the main part of the Investiture is in the location-independent Spiritual Realm from where it can be pulled (see AU entry for sand mastery or allomancy for example). Stormlight seems to be an example for Investiture in the Physical Realm with ties to the CR and SR since there is a moving perpendicularity on Roshar (I think the Highstorm is the perpendicularity where Investiture can leak from the SR to the PR where it is stored in exposed gems).

Non-splintered Shards usually transcend all three realms, so I don't know whether it is possible to "hide" in only one realm. Also I think Silverlight would not be a good place to hide, considering the worldhoppers, etc.

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4 hours ago, Pattern said:

Non-splintered Shards usually transcend all three realms, so I don't know whether it is possible to "hide" in only one realm. Also I think Silverlight would not be a good place to hide, considering the worldhoppers, etc.

OR, it could be a GREAT place because of this - hide in plain sight!

Even if it's not accurate at all, I'm a fan of the theory.

Edited by Rathmaskal
Forgot how to spell.
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On 13 juli 2017 at 1:42 PM, Pattern said:

Non-splintered Shards usually transcend all three realms, so I don't know whether it is possible to "hide" in only one realm. Also I think Silverlight would not be a good place to hide, considering the worldhoppers, etc.

Shouldn't a Shard be able to exist only in SR and CR though? Since worldhoppers can use perpendicularities to move between realms, Shards should be able to as well. And if a shard moves its PR parts to the CR, I suppose it could hide there. 

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6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Shouldn't a Shard be able to exist only in SR and CR though? Since Worldhoppers can use Perpendicularities to move between realms, Shards should be able to as well. And if a shard moves its PR parts to the CR, I suppose it could hide there. 

Possibly. It depends on what you consider a Shard's "Physical Realm parts." If you only consider it as the things the Shard is invested in, then yes. Odium would have been a prime example of this before getting trapped on Roshar. If you consider more than just that as Physical Realm parts, then we'd need to discuss it further

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Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Possibly. It depends on what you consider a Shard's "Physical Realm parts." If you only consider it as the things the Shard is invested in, then yes. Odium would have been a prime example of this before getting trapped on Roshar. If you consider more than just that as Physical Realm parts, then we'd need to discuss it further

If I remember correctly Ruin and Preservation (when Vin is the vessel) are visible from the ground on Scadrial when they clash in HoA. Ruin and Preservation (when Leras is the vessel) both use avatars in the PR as well.

I dont get your investment comment though. Do you mean that they would withdraw every bit of their power from a planet? In that case, wouldn't it lead to 

A) Magic systems stop working

B ) They can leave the planet/system.

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1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

If I remember correctly Ruin and Preservation (when Vin is the vessel) are visible from the ground on Scadrial when they clash in HoA. Ruin and Preservation (when Leras is the vessel) both use avatars in the PR as well.

I don't get your investment comment though. Do you mean that they would withdraw every bit of their power from a planet? In that case, wouldn't it lead to 

A) Magic systems stop working

B ) They can leave the planet/system.

You said "if a shard moves its PR parts to the CR, I suppose it could hide there."
I wondered if you considered the things a Shard has invested in as "PR parts." If you did, then they would have to divest themselves from all of it in order to hide in the SR&CR only.   Yes that would almost certainly lead to A and B, but that wasn't really the point.

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Just now, The One Who Connects said:

You said "if a shard moves its PR parts to the CR, I suppose it could hide there."
I wondered if you considered the things a Shard has invested in as "PR parts." If you did, then they would have to divest themselves from all of it in order to hide in the SR&CR only.   Yes that would almost certainly lead to A and B, but that wasn't really the point.

I just wanted clarification so that I understood the consequences correctly. 

And when I think about it, the stuff they invest in basically has to be considered as "PR things they need to hide" since anything invested prevents them from leaving the planet they are on, and also works as a big sign saying:

I AM A SHARD AND I AM HERE

So yeah, I consider their investment as PR things they need to remove. 

Do you remember/know if I am correct in that the Shards have som sort of physical manifestation beyond the things they invest in?

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Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

Do you remember/know if I am correct in that the Shards have some sort of physical manifestation beyond the things they invest in?

Um.. not really sure. I know Ruin and Leras appeared as Mist Spirits, but that always seemed more like an avatar. A public face that they created when they needed to, rather than a permanent thing.

I'd consider that as a non-issue, since I think that was an active use of energy to show up in the PR, rather than a "body" that they had wandering around. A way to have them not be omniscient gods who saw all and knew all. The spirit(and any spiked people) were their "eyes and ears" in the world.

No idea on any other things. What else were you thinking of?

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16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

No idea on any other things. What else were you thinking of?

I recalled Ruin and Preservation being visible to Sazed on the ground on Scadrial when they clash in HoA, but I checked the book real quick, and I was apparently wrong. Saze sees nothing until the corpses comes falling.

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Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

I recalled Ruin and Preservation being visible to Sazed on the ground on Scadrial when they clash in HoA, but I checked the book real quick, and I was apparently wrong. Saze sees nothing until the corpses comes falling.

Yea. He does see the power of the Shards leaking from them like Mist, but that's after the bodies fall.

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5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I recalled Ruin and Preservation being visible to Sazed on the ground on Scadrial when they clash in HoA, but I checked the book real quick, and I was apparently wrong. Saze sees nothing until the corpses comes falling.

The corpses themselves though are interesting

Quote

INSURRECTIONISTFUNGUS

Did Sazed do anything with the bodies of Ati and Leras after he ascended?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, I'm afraid not. Those might have been useful to have around, though.

 

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4 minutes ago, Extesian said:

The corpses themselves though are interesting

The meaning of this entry has consistently eluded me.

Outside of them being the model human life on Scadrial was based off of, which could let Harmony fully revert what TLR did, I have no clue what other use they could serve.

I suppose he could have looked at the connections they had in the SR, which could have lead him to discovering Yolen, but this seems really unlikely.

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3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The meaning of this entry has consistently eluded me.

Outside of them being the model human life on Scadrial was based off of, which could let Harmony fully revert what TLR did, I have no clue what other use they could serve.

I suppose he could have looked at the connections they had in the SR, which could have lead him to discovering Yolen, but this seems really unlikely.

Ditto but my best guess is Connection- but to have access to Yolish magic. The question is whether you can spike powers out of a Yolish god-corpse...

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16 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Ditto but my best guess is Connection- but to have access to Yolish magic. The question is whether you can spike powers out of a Yolish god-corpse...

I doubt that. At least not if the Yolish god-corpse has been a corpse for a while. The soul goes to the SR, and it´s ties to the PR is severed, right? I guess the spiritweb should go with the soul. But maybe the DNA is there... 

I´m thinking that the Yolsih god-corpses might make good Kandra-food.

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32 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt that. At least not if the Yolish god-corpse has been a corpse for a while. The soul goes to the SR, and it´s ties to the PR is severed, right? I guess the spiritweb should go with the soul. But maybe the DNA is there... 

I´m thinking that the Yolsih god-corpses might make good Kandra-food.

I will try to find the WoB but what we think of as the soul is purely the Cognitive aspect. 

Both the physical and spiritual aspects leave corpses, and the Cognitive goes beyond. 

You could spike a corpse and steal something with hemalurgy if the corpse is fresh enough. 

Edit: best I've found so far 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1113#3

Quote

WYRMHERO

Can you could Hemalurgically Spike a dead thing, similar to how Breath goes into dead things? Could you spike a Lifeless? (I regret not asking if Allomantic Lifeless could be a thing)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, if there was enough of the soul left for the Spike to take.

 

Edited by Calderis
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15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I will try to find the WoB but what we think of as the soul is purely the Cognitive aspect. 

Both the physical and spiritual aspects leave corpses, and the Cognitive goes beyond. 

You could spike a corpse and steal something with hemalurgy if the corpse is fresh enough. 

Edit: best I've found so far 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1113#3

 

That's a good Wob. You're probably thinking of this one

Quote

Q: Cognitive shadows have been a popular topic recently, so I figure I can try to clarify some things about them:
    When you say that the Returned are cognitive shadows, are they shadows of the people they were pre-death? In other words, is Lightsong Llarimar's cognitive shadow stapled to his body with a Divine Breath?
    We've seen cognitive shadows in the Cognitive Realm (e.g. Kelsier), and in the Physical (Returned, Shades, Heralds (kind of, sort of)). Is it alright to refer to shadows both with and without a body as "cognitive shadows"?
    Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture?
 
A: Point one: Yes, they are. (The evidence in the books is Lightsong obtaining some of the memories his pre-death soul had.)
Point two: Yes. The shadow is the spirit, though, so there is some distinction.
Point three: Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm.
 
Q: Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?
Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?
 
A: RAFO.

I personally don't think it's as settled as that and more than that i think Brandon is fast and loose with the word soul. Sometimes he clearly means spiritweb (When he refers to hemalurgy stealing a piece of the soul), sometimes he clearly means cognitive. I think in-world they don't know, and Brandon hasn't clarified quite enough for us to be certain. Too many uses of the word. 

But If you've seen something more explicit that would be great, this question comes up quite a lot. 

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16 minutes ago, Extesian said:

That's a good Wob. You're probably thinking of this one

I personally don't think it's as settled as that and more than that i think Brandon is fast and loose with the word soul. Sometimes he clearly means spiritweb (When he refers to hemalurgy stealing a piece of the soul), sometimes he clearly means cognitive. I think in-world they don't know, and Brandon hasn't clarified quite enough for us to be certain. Too many uses of the word. 

But If you've seen something more explicit that would be great, this question comes up quite a lot. 

That's exactly what I was thinking of, but didn't think to look under the Cognitive Shadow questions. 

Brandon definitely uses the word sole very flexibly. I think he does it intentionally to keep us doing exactly what we're doing. 

What we've seen in the Cosmere though... If you take the word soul as it's commonly used in our world, and apply that to the Cosmere, it describes the Cognitive aspect. The spiritual as it exists in the Cosmere seems to be something alien to earth religion. 

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2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Yea. He does see the power of the Shards leaking from them like Mist, but that's after the bodies fall.

Okay, this might be a bit off-topic, but this made me think of something. 

So, we know that the mists are an important part of the Scadrial world, as the ground of the Scadrial CR is mist. On Roshar, we know that the CR ground is instead made of orbs. This makes me think, would the dead body of a Vessel on Roshar still have mist leaking from them, or would it be something like the orbs?

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/16/2017 at 8:39 PM, StrikerEZ said:

Okay, this might be a bit off-topic, but this made me think of something. 

So, we know that the mists are an important part of the Scadrial world, as the ground of the Scadrial CR is mist. On Roshar, we know that the CR ground is instead made of orbs. This makes me think, would the dead body of a Vessel on Roshar still have mist leaking from them, or would it be something like the orbs?

I imagine that it would look more like Stormlight, since that is the 'pure' physical form of Investiture on Roshar.

Edited by Cowmanthethird
Capitalizing my Realmatic terms
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