How does Aluminum Work?

[+ILuvHats he/him]

So I get that aluminum is a sort of "Investiture sink," as the wiki put it.  However, I was wondering how the exact mechanics of aluminum work.  Can it only effect kinetic investiture, as opposed to passive?  All the examples on the wiki...you know what I'll quote it below.

 

Forgery[edit]

Known as Ralkalest in the Rose Empire, aluminum cannot be altered at all via Forgery.^[16]

The cells for Forgers in the Rose Palace have ralkalest grates in their ceilings for entrance and a thin plate of ralkalest behind the stone walls.^[16]

Nalthis[edit]

Aluminium cannot be Awakened. It is possible for aluminium to prevent someone from Returning, but it cannot be achieved with simple methods such as stabbing them.^[8]

Roshar[edit]

Items can be Soulcast into Aluminum.^[7] It is unknown if the Aluminum can then be soulcast into other Essences. Shardbladesare unable to cut aluminum.^{[17][18][nb 1]}However, this is only through magical means. If the aluminum is thin enough a Shardblade may cut it purely by virtue of having a sharp edge. ^[19]

 

Anyways, in all of these examples, it seems that aluminum is resistant to being effected by the magic system, and only interferes with investiture when it is being used actively.  So could aluminum theoretically absorb passive Investiture?  For example, if a ton of aluminum were dumped into the Well of Ascension, would it effect it at all, maybe even absorb the investiture?  Also, if it did absorb investiture like this, would it simply disperse it, or store it somewhere special in the Cognitive or Spiritual realms?

Uh...looking back on all my questions, seems like there probably aren't answers yet...but on the offside that there are... [click SUBMIT QUESTION].

[+ILuvHats he/him]

Ok.  Thanks for the clarification

[+Extesian he/him]

Aluminum seems to have different effects with different magic systems but I don't think it's been spelt out. It can probably cleanse someone of unwanted investiture as well and can probably drain investiture in most systems, or at least be inert.

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Question

In other worlds, are we seeing any magics already? Like, Allomancy might be in Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

You've seen people using Allomancy in Roshar before.

Question

You said that on Roshar the only reason they have aluminum is that they can Soulcast it, right? I think you said something like that … maybe? I was wondering how that would work, if an Allomancer were to--

Brandon Sanderson

Aluminum has some weird properties on all of the magic systems, not just allomancy. It does not have the same effect, but aluminum has some bizarre effects.

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Douglas

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

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Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

[Long pause]I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Question

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Question

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin’...

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Kurkistan

If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold?

Brandon Sanderson

(lots of laughing) [Some clarification on the question]They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect- negating and sucking out, so that’s probably safer. But the gold would work, too.

Kurkistan

So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging-

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Kurkistan

That just kind of slowly takes over your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Sure. That's legit.

Atium can't see what it will do

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Question

Would aluminum give an atium shadow? Like if someone threw an aluminum spear?

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum would not give an atium shadow. Good question.

I think based on them, and "there's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture", aluminium is just inert. It clashes a little with the 'cleanse you of unwanted investiture' line, but hey.

I personally think that aluminium only will block kinetic investiture.

[Scriptorian he/him]

The "cleansing of unwanted investiture" bit is specifically referring to the use of aluminum in allomancy i.e. somthing an aluminum misting or Mistborn could theoretically do by burning the metal, aside from simply wiping their metal reserves.

So I think it's less that aluminum interacts differently with different magic systems, and more that it has a specific allomantic effect and otherwise blocks all investiture the same. The two aren't necessarily related. 

The WoB about aluminum not having an atium shadow raises a few questions for me, however... For example, how/does aluminum show up in the Spiritual Realm (where future-sight powers originate)? Is a Shard's future-sight similarly hindered? Would an allomancer buring electrum be able to see a shadow of themselves being hit by an aluminum bullet? How well can atium's mental boost deal with an attack it can't directly detected like that? Maybe I need to go to the ultimate questions list thread...

[Spoolofwhool]

It is not yet confirmed whether or not aluminum can be magically cut by shardblades.

 

[Weltall]

Borrowing from Michael Okuda when he was asked about how a particular bit of Star Trek technology was supposed to function: Aluminum works very well, thanks for asking.

[Scriptorian he/him]

8 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

We know WOB that burning Aluminum would undue the withering of a shade, but I wonder about burning silver or duralumin and silver?

I'd love to see a Mistborn burn Silver (knowing full well it might make them sick) to see how that would affect nearby shades. Mistborn can burn non-allomantic metals though it is dangerous, but maybe those dangers wouldn't be so bad if the body/soul was under attack by a shade. Do it enough and maybe you could be some sort of weird Silver Savant. 

 

It's an interesting thought, though I personally suspect it wouldn't do anymore than buring a non allomantic metal normally does i.e kills you. If you've got the silver, then you're probably a lot safer using it to ward off the shade or for healing withering. 

On the other hand, if thredonite silver is actually invested, this might do some very interesting things. I could see it functioning like compounding, where the allomacy powers a super-charged version of the stored investiture. 

It really depends on how exactly silver interacts with shades in the first place. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

We know WOB that burning Aluminum would undue the withering of a shade, but I wonder about burning silver or duralumin and silver?

I'd love to see a Mistborn burn Silver (knowing full well it might make them sick) to see how that would affect nearby shades. Mistborn can burn non-allomantic metals though it is dangerous, but maybe those dangers wouldn't be so bad if the body/soul was under attack by a shade. Do it enough and maybe you could be some sort of weird Silver Savant. 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Spoolofwhool]

23 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

We know WOB that burning Aluminum would undue the withering of a shade, but I wonder about burning silver or duralumin and silver?

I'd love to see a Mistborn burn Silver (knowing full well it might make them sick) to see how that would affect nearby shades. Mistborn can burn non-allomantic metals though it is dangerous, but maybe those dangers wouldn't be so bad if the body/soul was under attack by a shade. Do it enough and maybe you could be some sort of weird Silver Savant. 

 

14 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

It's an interesting thought, though I personally suspect it wouldn't do anymore than buring a non allomantic metal normally does i.e kills you. If you've got the silver, then you're probably a lot safer using it to ward off the shade or for healing withering. 

On the other hand, if thredonite silver is actually invested, this might do some very interesting things. I could see it functioning like compounding, where the allomacy powers a super-charged version of the stored investiture. 

It really depends on how exactly silver interacts with shades in the first place. 

You can't burn silver by itself, it's not an allomantic metal. Getting hurt by burning only applies to mistborns burning alloys of allomantic metal with incorrect percentages. 

 

[Ari he/him]

Also, in HoA Vin describes silver as Allomantically inert, in that it can't be pushed or pulled. So there's something interesting going on with it that it's useful against shades too, it's possible that there was some degree of aluminium in those metals used in HoA unbeknownst to Vin, (especially as TLR clearly knew about Aluminium) but that doesn't explain why she would incorrectly think any silver is inert, and why it works against Threnodite shades.

 

It would also be interesting to know if aluminium would have similar qualities against Shades compared to silver.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Ari

[The One Who Connects he/him]

16 hours ago, Ari said:

Also, in HoA Vin describes silver as Allomantically inert, in that it can't be pushed or pulled.

She doesn't actually say that. All she says is that it is Allomantically "useless," which means it can't be burned. After all, Yomen gave her her silver coated earring back, which can be pushed.

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Yomen had designed her prison well. Any metal used in the construction of her cot or facilities was Allomantically useless. Silver, while expensive, seemed to be the metal of choice - and there was very little even of that. Just a few screws in the cot that Vin had managed to work free with her fingernails.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

On 7/7/2017 at 2:13 AM, Scriptorian said:

The WoB about aluminum not having an atium shadow raises a few questions for me, however... For example, how/does aluminum show up in the Spiritual Realm (where future-sight powers originate)? Is a Shard's future-sight similarly hindered? Would an allomancer buring electrum be able to see a shadow of themselves being hit by an aluminum bullet? How well can atium's mental boost deal with an attack it can't directly detected like that?

Kelsier meets a character carrying an aluminum (and/or silver) knife in Secret History, I don't wanna spoil anything if you haven't read it, but you can infer some of the answers you're looking for from there.

Edit: Just realized this is the cognitive realm, not the spiritual. Still has some interesting implications though.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Nathrangking he/him]

The metal is inert and does not to my knowledge have any impact on passive investiture if it did then allomantic weapons would in fact be dangerous for an allowmancer to even touch. In which case Wax for instance who does touch it would have been negatively impacted but he ultimately is not.

[Steeldancer he/him]

I will ask an important question: does aluminum have a spiritual aspect?!

That's one I definitely want to ask brandon. 

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

On 8/9/2017 at 3:04 PM, Flash said:

I will ask an important question: does aluminum have a spiritual aspect?!

That's one I definitely want to ask brandon. 

I would think it must have some kind of spiritual aspect, since Investiture is drawn from the Spiritual Realm.

If it just didn't exist at all in the SR, I don't think it could be allomanticly active, I could be wrong though, as this is just speculation.

That said, I would wager that you're right in that there is something wierd about its spiritual, or maybe cognitive, aspect.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 8/9/2017 at 2:04 PM, Steeldancer said:

I will ask an important question: does aluminum have a spiritual aspect?!

That's one I definitely want to ask brandon. 

I would say that it has to in order to exist, but that's an opinion, not a fact.

What is a fact is that Aluminum steals Allomantic Enhancement Abilities. This means that Aluminum spikes are capable of housing portions of someone's Spiritweb, indicating the presence of a spiritual aspect. So I would say yes.