If Odium had killed Ati and Leras

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Okay, so on Sel, magic is related to geography, because of the fact that Odium splintered Dominion and Devotion and placed the leftovers in the CR. What I wonder is, had the effects been similar on Scadrial if Odium had killed Ruin and Preservation, and placed their investiture in the CR?

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Okay, so on Sel, magic is related to geography, because of the fact that Odium splintered Dominion and Devotion and placed the leftovers in the CR. What I wonder is, had the effects been similar on Scadrial if Odium had killed Ruin and Preservation, and placed their investiture in the CR?

I'd imagine so. Assuming the magics we know on Scadrial had already been created, I don't think Feruchemy or Hemalurgy would really change much as they don't deal with an external investiture source. 

Allomancy though? Allomancy (and as a byproduct compounding) would be forced to change. It currently pulls power from the Spiritual into/through the Allomancer. That may work just as well from the Cognitive, but who knows what crazy side effects and regional effects it would have produced. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

The Cognitive Realm can, to some extent, be molded by the perception of humans in the physical realm.  I think it's a safe bet that northern and southern Scadrians are culturally distinct and isolated enough that they would almost certainly have had different effects on how the Investiture molded itself if it had been crammed into the CR instead of picked up by Sazed.  Whether this would have culminated in geography based systems of magic, is somewhat arguable, but I suspect that @Calderis is probably right that allomancy would be affected the most immediately and obviously.

[Chinsukolo]

8 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Okay, so on Sel, magic is related to geography, because of the fact that Odium splintered Dominion and Devotion and placed the leftovers in the CR. What I wonder is, had the effects been similar on Scadrial if Odium had killed Ruin and Preservation, and placed their investiture in the CR?

 

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'd imagine so. Assuming the magics we know on Scadrial had already been created, I don't think Feruchemy or Hemalurgy would really change much as they don't deal with an external investiture source. 

Allomancy though? Allomancy (and as a byproduct compounding) would be forced to change. It currently pulls power from the Spiritual into/through the Allomancer. That may work just as well from the Cognitive, but who knows what crazy side effects and regional effects it would have produced. 

Both of these require that Sel's geographic location based magic is a product of the Investiture being pushed into the Cognitive Realm.  While I don't wholly disagree I think that's a bit to generalistic of a view. 

It ignores, or at a minimum brushes aside that the Dor is composed of Dominion.  Dominion itself is a product/concept of location (specifically: sovereignty and control over locations).  So the geographical requirement for Dor is likely a byproduct of that Shard not of being squished into the Cognitive Realm.  

I think it's more likely that the geographical nature of Dor was changed or exacerbated by being the CR ( so both things play a part in it), but definitely not the cause of the location requirement, that was Dominion itself.


With that said, to answer the actual question of the OP.  I don't think there would be any geographical/location requirement outcomes if Ruin and Preservation had been shoveled into the cognative realm.  I do think that certain aspect of Allomancy and Feruchemy would change, the more Cognitive metals might have stronger outcomes, or be more subject to human perception/understanding, and the spiritual one may be weakened or less powerful.   Even though F is investiture neutral, storing memories or other cognitive things may be effected by the fact that the investiture itself is now cognitive (i.e. stored memories maybe becoming spren like, as opposed to stored in a spiritual database..

I do agree with @Calderis that Hemalurgy would likely be unchanged.

[Calderis he/him]

@Chinsukolo I agree, and disagree. 

Yes dominion in itself may be the reason for the regionalization on the map. I hadn't considered that but it's plausible. The starkly segregated magic by boundaries. 

That's not all that going on though. The location dependant of the magic is tied to the Cognitive at least as far as Sel's magics not being usable of planet. That would carry over and Allomancy would only be usable where the investiture existed, rather than  through the location independent Spiritual realm. 

I still think considering their nature, this would only effect Allomancy thoughts. 

[Chinsukolo]

Just now, Calderis said:

@Chinsukolo I agree, and disagree. 

Yes dominion in itself may be the reason for the regionalization on the map. I hadn't considered that but it's plausible. The starkly segregated magic by boundaries. 

That's not all that going on though. The location dependant of the magic is tied to the Cognitive at least as far as Sel's magics not being usable of planet. That would carry over and Allomancy would only be usable where the investiture existed, rather than  through the location independent Spiritual realm. 

I still think considering their nature, this would only effect Allomancy thoughts. 

All of that I can agree with.

If stuck in the Cognitive Realm you wouldn't be able to use Allomancy on say Sel or Roshar (without a Pipe like the IRE anyways).  Yes I can agree to that.  I also agree with how you say it would carry over to Allomancy.  I still disagree that Feruchemy wouldn't be effected though.  I think Cognitive and Spiritual metals would have their power/reaction altered by the power being in the CR vs the SR.  They may not "gain" a location to Scadrial requirement like Allomancy though, for the reason you describe.

My comment was specifically the geographical requirements inside Sel (Dahkor, Forgery, etc) are a product or Dominion not of being the the CR.  Which is what I interpreted the OP's question to be on.

[Calderis he/him]

@Chinsukolo the only reason I think that Feruchemy would be uneffected is that it is an already established magic that is passed through bloodlines and does not require external investiture. 

Feruchemists would still be born, and they would still be manipulating their own internal investiture. 

[Chinsukolo]

Again I'm not disagreeing with that in anyway shape or form.  I believe you are correct and those aspects would be unchanged.

What I am trying to say is Memories are a Cognitive thing so having the Investiture in the CR might have odd outcomes for Cognitive metals in Feruchemy.  I.e. maybe they can store more memories, or maybe the memory will live in the CR as an idea and now will be more "permanent" int he metal mind.

At the same time "Spiritual" Metals like Connection and Identity I think would also change because the the Investiture link for Spiritual aspects would be weakened by it being in the CR vise the SR. 

Basically I'm just trying to say the magnitude of the F effect, or perhaps method or degree needed to tap/store might change specifically for the CR and SR based metal.

[Calderis he/him]

@Chinsukoloand that's precisely why I worded things the way I did. They aren't manipulating the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms. Only their Cognitive and Spiritual aspects. It is all completely internally fueled. 

[+Extesian he/him]

@Chinsukolo, I’m fascinated by this Dominion/location idea. Do you have any canon or WoB support for that? Or is it just you head-canon from what makes sense. Coz I don’t think I agree, I think the WoB below make it reasonably clear that the location-dependence is solely due to the Shards being trapped in the Cognitive Realm, which is location-dependent, unlike the Spiritual Realm, and that if that happened on any other planet with an end-positive magic system, that system would become regionalized, at least to the extent that you couldn’t’ use it on other planets (even if it’s not regionalized within the planet). Is your argument that on Sel the magic would be confined to the planet no matter what, but that Sel is then further regionalised within the planet because of Dominion?

I find this idea fascinating, I’ve never seen it before. While I think the WoB are clear that confinement to the Cognitive Realm will cause the same end-positive limitations off-planet, perhaps you could have a point about localised regionalization. Perhaps the difference is that, because it’s about Connection, if the same thing happened on another planet, anyone Connected to the planet is fine (on-world), but maybe Dominion’s presence on Sel results in people being Connected only to their region, rather than the whole planet.

I’m not convinced, but I’m very intrigued.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- the ones who aren’t interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? You don’t need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I’ve [written] them so that each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it’s stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they’re keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection--mostly Connection. So that means you can’t do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they’re drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they’re end-neutral, like Breath is, and don’t need any extra power

 

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Is your argument that on Sel the magic would be confined to the planet no matter what, but that Sel is then further regionalised within the planet because of Dominion?

I'd never considered the possibility before either, but now that it's been proposed, I find it plausible. 

[Chinsukolo]

@Extesian

I have the Definition of the word Dominion + the the opinion that Brandon doesn't choose his names without a specific reason, i.e. words mean things.

Second the Coppermind specifically says the variation in Sel magics is related to Dominion Shard.

There are also a ton of Theories on this site from 2012/2013 about the same opinion/interpretation of Dominion.

Spoiler

 

 

Just to clarify I am attributing the geographical difference in Sel's Magic (post mixing) to the Shard of Dominion's influence on the Dor.    I still believe and support that idea mention in the WoB you linked, that because all the Investiture is stuffed into the CR, that is why Selish people can't use Sel Magic off of Sel (without a pipe).   Simply:  Regional difference in Magic ON-planet are caused by Dominion-  Sel magic locked to Sel is caused by Investiture trapped in the CR.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Chinsukolo
To add link to old thread (please no Necro)

[The One Who Connects he/him]

6 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

Second the Coppermind specifically says the variation in Sel magics is related to Dominion Shard.

It's in the theories section, so is not proven canon. The line near the top lacks a source citation.

Quote

This page or section deals with theories or speculation.

Please read carefully and note that this is not necessarily canonical.

Dominion and Devotion together make up the Dor. They did not work together, as Ruin and Preservation did, rather their Splintered remains merged in an unknown way and made the Dor. It is postulated that Dominion—meaning land, or country under control—is the reason only people of certain nationalities can access the Dor in certain ways. It is likely that being born in that country does not matter, it instead being related to feeling a devotion toward it. MaiPon people alone can use Forgery, and a map of MaiPon goes on the back of soulstamps. Only people of Aonic descent can be taken by the Shaod, but only if they are in Arelon at the time. Aons contain maps of Arelon as well.

Edited July 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Blue line formatting error.

[Chinsukolo]

@Calderis

39 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Is your argument that on Sel the magic would be confined to the planet no matter what, but that Sel is then further regionalised within the planet because of Dominion?

Yes

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'd never considered the possibility before either, but now that it's been proposed, I find it plausible. 

I then took that idea to Scadrial to say "Yes I agree" that Allmoancy would be locked to planet, but not Feruchemy or Hemalurgy.

But extrapolated/expanded it -  (since we know from SA things -involved with- the CR can be and are effected by humans beliefs (cognition) on them) to say that I thought the Feruchemy outcome of Cognitive Metals might change because that "response" would be more "subject" to humans cognitive changes.  Which is what I was trying to explain (poorly i guess since I'm still having issue articulating it).



@The One Who Connects

I'll give it to you that the "Associated Magics" section has the Theory warning - as I am stating the above is my theory/theory I ascribe too.

However, "line near the top"

Quote

Intent

Dominion. This is why on Sel, people from different lands have different forms of investiture. People from MaiPon can forge, and people from Elantris can use Aons. They have 'dominion' over different lands.

Does indeed lack proper attribution, but so does the statement that Skai was Dominion's holder and that does not seem to be disputed - so how is one to know which are disputed and unattributed, and which are not disputed and unattributed without posting their statement?  

In doing so to say that one can not be used because it is not proper attributed is to imply all non-attributed post cannot be used.  Which is fine, but clearly not the practice around here.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Chinsukolo
Avoid Double Post

[+Extesian he/him]

@Chinsukolo Well I really like it. I’ve never seen WoBs indicating that about Dominion (and I understand your definitional argument, though I think the Shard names don’t always 100% correspond to how their Intent actually plays out), but I haven’t seen Shard discussions on this - they were well before my time, perhaps I should look at coppermind more. I’ll try to find some. I wanted to say you’re a possible genius if you just came up with it yourself. But either way, I don’t often completely rethink how I see major things realmatically so kudos for raising a possibility that (after I played it through in my head) actually makes a lot of sense. That intra-planet regionalisation is due to the Shard  even though inter-planet regionalisation is due to the CR. Good work. Another thing to add to my tentative head-canon.

On the feruchemy aspects and so on, I think really the main difference would just be the role of Intent in the magic. Sel has a much stronger intent component than most other planets because of the investiture being trapped in the CR. Personally I don't think that would change feruchemy much, though you may be right that it could influence the cognitive metals. But I don't think it would have a big effect on the non-end-positive systems.

[Chinsukolo]

@Extesian @Calderis

Thanks for the back and forth on the idea, I much prefer the back and forth when it comes to theories, different points of view always help to better polish things.

While I spent many of my replys attempting to explain my original extrapolation involving Feruchemy, I do believe you two have both convinced me that it's unlikely and just over extending/extrapolating for that specific aspect.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

but so does the statement that Skai was Domion's holder and that does not seem to be disputed - so how is one to know which are disputed and unattributed, and which are not disputed and unattributed without posting their statement?

That statement does have a source actually, on Skai's page. Now, it should also be on Dominion's page, but a good rule of thumb is to check related pages for sources.
Edit: Actually, it is on Dominion's page, but earlier. It's the ^[1] in the sentence directly before saying the holder is Skai.

Additionally, I checked the edit history(as i am in the habit of doing). The bit marked "theory" was in the page first, was later marked as theory that same day, and then the line near the top was added nine months later.

[Chinsukolo]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

That statement does have a source actually, on Skai's page. Now, it should also be on Dominion's page, but a good rule of thumb is to check related pages for sources.
Edit: Actually, it is on Dominion's page, but earlier. It's the ^[1] in the sentence directly before saying the holder is Skai.

Additionally, I checked the edit history(as i am in the habit of doing). The bit marked "theory" was in the page first, was later marked as theory that same day, and then the line near the top was added nine months later.

Following the link shows the actual WoB is "The secondar Shard on Elatris's world is Dominion"

It does not say that Skai is the holder, further down the thread it is specifically mentioned that the "theory" is that he is.  And was thus moved to "General Theories" by the Mods.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

The second Shard on Elantris' world is Dominion"

It does not say that Skai is the holder,

Enjoy roundabout WoB logic.

Quote

Chaos

This is other information we overheard while we were there.

Skaze are the evil Seons, and are related to Skai. Seons are related to the AonDor and thus Aona.

Seons - Aona - Devotion.    Skaze - Skai - other shard(Per the Letter, Skai was a Vessel). Combine with "other Shard is Dominion" and there you go.

[Chinsukolo]

@The One Who Connects

Cool!  So we have consolidated info that does give concrete evidence that Skai was holder of Dominion.  

Clearly the Coppermind needs work, but I believe it's still a valuable resource none the less.

As I have no idea how to update a wiki, will you/can you add the citations to that line so others don't have to recreate your work or delay a forums response to spend 30-45 minutes leapfrogging WoB to theory thread to Wob to thread and back again?

It also doesn't change the theory that Dominion is the cause of local geographical specialization of Selish Magic.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Chinsukolo said:

Clearly the Coppermind needs work, but I believe it's still a valuable resource none the less.

I blame how many signings we get from time to time. People spend so long writing transcripts in Events and Signings then attempting to get those onto Theoryland, while the other half of us make theories based on them, and nobody actually hits up the Coppermind. I usually skip over it when WoB hunting for this reason.

3 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

As I have no idea how to update a wiki, will you/can you add the citations to that line so others don't have to recreate your work or delay a forums response to spend 30-45 minutes leapfrogging WoB to theory thread to Wob to thread and back again?

Formatting links isn't my strong point, but I've done it before. It's done, might have to be reformatted later, but it's linked there.

[Chinsukolo]

22 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I blame how many signings we get from time to time. People spend so long writing transcripts in Events and Signings then attempting to get those onto Theoryland, while the other half of us make theories based on them, and nobody actually hits up the Coppermind. I usually skip over it when WoB hunting for this reason.

I truly hope this -Post link- fixes a lot of that and allows much better maintenance of the CopperMind. I image once it's finished it'll be a mad scramble and hard push on updating/linking the articles and page clean up.  Searching Theory land is a huge pain since the search function sucks so bad - at least it's something though.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 hour ago, Chinsukolo said:

I truly hope this -Post link- fixes a lot of that and allows much better maintenance of the CopperMind. I image once it's finished it'll be a mad scramble and hard push on updating/linking the articles and page clean up.  Searching Theory land is a huge pain since the search function sucks so bad - at least it's something though.

Yeah, theoryland is bad-that's why they're making a new one! Well, one specifically just for WoBs. It will have a lot better search functions than theoryland does right now.

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

Yeah, theoryland is bad-that's why they're making a new one! Well, one specifically just for WoBs. It will have a lot better search functions than theoryland does right now.

I will wander the stacks of the Palaneum endlessly. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I will wander the stacks of the Palaneum endlessly. 

I thought they said it was called something else? Plus, Palaneum is hard to remember/spell.