Effective ways to imprison a Shardbearer

[Alfa he/him]

Dalinar once said to Kaladin that it is almost impossible to imprison a Shardbearer. However, in my opinion, that is possible, even if technically difficult to achieve.

The most difficult moment would be arresting the Shardbearer in question. However, we saw how Dalinar managed to defeat a guy in a Shardplate vs. Shardplate batte without killing him (Elhokar) and another one in a Shardblade vs. Shardblade standoff (Amaram). With surprise and enough skilled Shardbearers an arrest is achievable.

Now the Shardbearer is arrested, his shardplate is shattered, somebody is holding a Shardblade to his throat (two are better), and two people hold his arms to the sides and watch very carefully that no mists start to form there. Let's just assume the guy does not want to die fighting and as a rational man sees there is no way to survive this.

Now, we need a way to stop the arrested from summoning his shardplate when nobody is watching. The solution I have in mind is fixating his hands in a way he is unable to hold a summoned shardblade. I thought about taking enough crem to form balls around his hands and then soulcast it to metal or wood. Even if he summons a shardblade, it will fall down. Also, it is possible to achieve this by building some kind of wooden gloves with finger-rings or so, though I don't know how the exact design may look like.

Now, we need a special cell. A typical cell has the problem that the shardbearer still might escape, by summoning the shardblade in the right spot and dropping it. It might take its time, but in the end there might still be a hole in the door, or wall, or floor. Therefore, the cell should be a hole in the ground (alike to the forger-containment cells in The Emperor's Soul). Summon all the blades you want - it's still a long way to the other side of Roshar.

Especially fun would be a cell soulcasted out of transparent crystal on the inside, after which follows a thick layer of oil. And a part of the cell that you cannot reach (very narrow passage between those) contains a brazier. Any summoning of the shardblade leads to a hole in the wall, and an intrusion of oil, which inevitably will catch fire, therefore discouraging any attempt.

It is difficult, it is expensive, it is possible.

[maxal she/her]

I had given this some thought and constraining a Shardbearer shouldn't be too difficult: all you have to do it tie up their hands by having them running up flat against their back, with elbows bent. It is terribly uncomfortable to be tie up this way, not to forget painful, but it renders summoning a Shardblade practically impossible without cutting oneself.

I had wonder too if this was something we would get to see in Oathbringer.

[Mestiv he/him]

Or, if you're really desperate, just cut off his hands 

[Alfa he/him]

1 hour ago, Mestiv said:

Or, if you're really desperate, just cut off his hands 

That part has a certain finality to it. Kind of bad if you imprison somebody for trial.

[Calderis he/him]

I agree that capture is the more difficult part. But holding? Take a normal prison cell, soulcast to Aluminum. 

[+hwiles]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree that capture is the more difficult part. But holding? Take a normal prison cell, soulcast to Aluminum. 

Agreed.  Then before you let them out, have them kneel down in the middle of the cell and summon, and immediately dismiss, their blade.  When the blade disappears you throw open the door, storm the cell, clap their hands and feet in irons, and have a couple big guards haul the prisoner around by wrists and elbows.

You could also duct tape oven mitts to their hands...

[Alfa he/him]

29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree that capture is the more difficult part. But holding? Take a normal prison cell, soulcast to Aluminum. 

Shardblades can cut aluminum. WoB.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

This is Roshar. Just kill the shardbearer already and give the shard to someone more worthy.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Stormfather-in-Law

[teknopathetic he/him]

28 minutes ago, Alfa said:

Shardblades can cut aluminum. WoB.

Whoa, really? News to me. 

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

This is Roshar. Just kill the shardbearer already and give the shard to someone more worthy.

There's conflicting WoB's and WoP's on this. Taken as a whole they imply that the Aluminum would block the investiture, so the blade would not cut the aluminum, but it still has to deal with the physical force from the blade striking. Aluminum is a brittle metal, so if it's thin or flawed it would snap. A prison cell soulcast to Aluminum should be thick enough everywhere to avoid this problem. 

We'll have to wait and see how this actually plays out in the books, but considering how aluminum blocks investiture Cosmere wide, I will be very shocked if a Shardblade can cut aluminum the same way it cuts everything else. It would be a glaring inconsistency that would have to be explained. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Alfa said:

Shardblades can cut aluminum. WoB.

39 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Whoa, really? News to me. 

Multiple WoB's on the subject, so you are partially right and partially wrong Alfa.

It seems fitting that I quote the Roshar section of the Aluminum page on the Coppermind, seeing as I'm the one who made that section in the first place

Quote

Roshar

Items can be Soulcast into Aluminum.^[7] It is unknown if the Aluminum can then be soulcast into other Essences. Shardblades are unable to cut aluminum.^{[17][18][nb 1]}However, this is only through magical means. If the aluminum is thin enough a Shardblade may cut it purely by virtue of having a sharp edge. ^[19]

---

For a more detailed explanation:

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There's conflicting WoB's and WoP's on this. Taken as a whole they imply that the Aluminum would block the investiture, so the blade would not cut the aluminum, but it still has to deal with the physical force from the blade striking. Aluminum is a brittle metal, so if it's thin or flawed it would snap. A prison cell soulcast to Aluminum should be thick enough everywhere to avoid this problem. 

We'll have to wait and see how this actually plays out in the books, but considering how aluminum blocks investiture Cosmere wide, I will be very shocked if a Shardblade can cut aluminum the same way it cuts everything else. It would be a glaring inconsistency that would have to be explained. 

Oh by the way, you quoted the wrong person Calderis.

[Scriptorian he/him]

To address the OP, I think the difficulty is as much social as it is practical. On top of the fact that a shardbearer is at least 4th dahn, an incredibly valuable military reasource, and the rosharan equivilant of a superhero, the measures necessary to restrain them (as described above) are, to put it mildly, undignifying to such a person. It can be done, but only if you're ready to make a really big storm of it. And in that case, in the Alethi mentality, you'd be better off just executing them and freeing up the shards for someone else. So Dalinar's words were true, if an oversimplification. 

[Calderis he/him]

26 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh by the way, you quoted the wrong person Calderis.

I did... How did I not notice that? 

[Sparkrunner he/him]

Hope my crapaflapnasti art burns your eyes!

I have personal experience with this, so I can tell you guys how.

Bend arms behind back. Bend over backwards, till hands touch feet. Fasten arms (painfully) tightly to the feet by wrapping wire around them. They should now look something like this:

Spoiler

Follow with a sharp blow to the midsection to double them over:

Spoiler

Bind with wires the shoulders and neck to the knees, or below the knees.

Spoiler

Now place a thick blindfold over the eyes and block the ears. Spin the person viciously in circles, then shake them, then spin them the other way, then knock them out. When they wake up, similarly disorient them, then place them in a cell. The cell should be barely bigger than them curled up, so they cannot move at all. Their arms should be totally encompassed.  They should have no idea where they are or what their surroundings are like. Occasionally life a small flap in front of their face to feed them. Feed drugs as needed.

Spoiler

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Just simulcast some superglue and stick their hands together. Done. 

[Voidus]

Well you can threaten to kill them unless they surrender their Shards then just imprison them normally, or you could keep them unconscious or seriously drugged so they can't wield a blade, or get a particularly clever artifabrian to design a collar-fabrial that shocks them whenever they summon a Shardblade. Or fit them with gloves that have jagged pieces of metal on the insides so as soon as the weight of a Shardblade falls into their hand they eviscerate it.
Better solution is to impison them with something other than a solid barrier.
Imprison them on an island, Shardblades don't help you swim any better.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

20 minutes ago, Cluny the Scourge said:

I have personal experience with this, so I can tell you guys how.

Remind me to introduce you to the 8th Amendment

But I think your explanations are sufficient enough to understand the images. The subject would end up sitting down with their knees against their chest and their hands behind their back. Hands and feet tied together, knees and shoulders bound together(it should be on the inside of the knee so it can't get wiggled loose as easily). Blindfold and disorient them, stick them in a barrel, and then send them downriver.

Biggest issue I can see is that this would be difficult to do to a person still wearing Plate, even if it is badly damaged, due to bulk. If his plate is in no condition for him to fight back, you will have to have people manually remove the plate from him both for him to move around and for you to move him anywhere. Then you will need to have more people making sure he doesn't try anything, and... It gets to a point where you're gonna have an interesting discussion with your cost-benefit analyst.

5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Just simulcast some superglue and stick their hands together. Done. 

I'd imagine that the physical "spawning-in" of the Blade would push his hands out of the way somewhat, at least enough for the hilt to fit. Then you've got someone using an awkward two-handed grip, but also one that's hard to disarm since he can't exactly drop the blade anymore.

---

As a side note, am I the only one who thinks that summoning the blade is mostly mental and doesn't actually require a physical hand-motion?

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

As a side note, am I the only one who thinks that summoning the blade is mostly mental and doesn't actually require a physical hand-motion?

Nope. The only reason I see to move your hand as all is blade placement at time of summoning. I think Dalinar's surprise Shardblade with Amaram demonstrates it pretty well. He had to have been summoning his blade well before he moved. 

[Oversleep]

Uh...

How about: you can't use a Shardblade if you can't hold a Shardblade?

Gloves from cast metal keeping fingers straight. Keep arms apart with stocks.

There! A solution that is not humiliating to people who outrank 90% of the society.

Apply additional measures as you see fit but I think this solution should - pardon my pun - cut it.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Oversleep

[maxal she/her]

57 minutes ago, Cluny the Scourge said:

Hope my crapaflapnasti art burns your eyes!

I have personal experience with this, so I can tell you guys how.

Bend arms behind back. Bend over backwards, till hands touch feet. Fasten arms (painfully) tightly to the feet by wrapping wire around them. They should now look something like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Follow with a sharp blow to the midsection to double them over:

  Reveal hidden contents

Bind with wires the shoulders and neck to the knees, or below the knees.

  Reveal hidden contents

Now place a thick blindfold over the eyes and block the ears. Spin the person viciously in circles, then shake them, then spin them the other way, then knock them out. When they wake up, similarly disorient them, then place them in a cell. The cell should be barely bigger than them curled up, so they cannot move at all. Their arms should be totally encompassed.  They should have no idea where they are or what their surroundings are like. Occasionally life a small flap in front of their face to feed them. Feed drugs as needed.

OMG, this is like beyond cruel  Now I really do not want to read a Shardbearer being constrained.

[Alfa he/him]

7 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Uh...

How about: you can't use a Shardblade if you can't hold a Shardblade?

Gloves from cast metal keeping fingers straight. Keep arms apart with stocks.

There! A solution that is not humiliating to people who outrank 90% of the society.

More or less the first part of my solution, the one with soulcasted crem-balls.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Gloves from cast metal keeping fingers straight. Keep arms apart with stocks.

I think it's difficult to differentiate between clothing and the person when Soulcasting, so perhaps that's what is preventing this from happening.

On a semi-related note, would Shardplate that has had all of the gems inside it drained of Stormlight(either through magical methods or through long enough time without reinfusing them) still be posable?

I know it would be a waste of Shardplate, but having them trapped within their own suit, unable to move their arms or possibly even fingers could serve as a more effective punishment than actual torture. Their captor being willing to wait and claim their Plate and Blade once they wither away(combined with a stop in feeding the prisoner), with their only hope of being spared is if they relinquish their Blade.. it would be an interesting scenario, to say the least.

Disclaimer: I know full well that this would be better in a soulcast straightjacket, but I enjoy the poetic justice in having them rot in their own Plate. Their once impenetrable shield becoming their inescapable prison...

Edited June 18, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Edit: 1500 Posts!!

[maxal she/her]

31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I think it's difficult to differentiate between clothing and the person when Soulcasting, so perhaps that's what is preventing this from happening.

On a semi-related note, would Shardplate that has had all of the gems inside it drained of Stormlight(either through magical methods or through long enough time without reinfusing them) still be posable?

I know it would be a waste of Shardplate, but having them trapped within their own suit, unable to move their arms or possibly even fingers could serve as a more effective punishment than actual torture. Their captor being willing to wait and claim their Plate and Blade once they wither away(combined with a stop in feeding the prisoner), with their only hope of being spared is if they relinquish their Blade.. it would be an interesting scenario, to say the least.

Disclaimer: I know full well that this would be better in a soulcast straightjacket, but I enjoy the poetic justice in having them rot in their own Plate. Their once impenetrable shield becoming their inescapable prison...

Double-OMG  This is the thread where we invent the worst ways to torture a Shardbearer  So unless it is Amaram they put in there, I really really do not want to read a trapped Shardbearer anymore 

[Calderis he/him]

Take the shardbearer and place them in a pit-like tank. Outside the tank is water. If they attempt to use the blade to cut stairs into the side,  then water floods in. Have a viewing platform above the pit so that you can speak to the Shardbearer. 

[Alfa he/him]

2 hours ago, Alfa said:

More or less the first part of my solution, the one with soulcasted crem-balls.

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Take the shardbearer and place them in a pit-like tank. Outside the tank is water. If they attempt to use the blade to cut stairs into the side,  then water floods in. Have a viewing platform above the pit so that you can speak to the Shardbearer. 

...and here comes a variation of the second half.