Are BioChroma and Stormlight the same or similar?

[Tate]

The idea for this theory started when a friend of mine told me that Nightblood was eventually Szeth's Shardblade. I saw one problem with this, after finishing Warbreaker. Nightblood needs to feed off of BioChroma. This got me thinking. My theory is that BioChroma and Stormlight are very similar or the same, but are effected by the world, type of investiture, or person. An awakener might be able to suck in stormlight, converting it to BioChroma. On the other hand, BioChroma and Stormlight might not be similar enough for persons of investiture to absorb these various powers, but similar enough to power Nightblood.  I couldn't find any other strings relating to this, and you can feel free to smash my theory to pieces if necessary. Also, If anyone finds a string relating to this, please tell me.

Thanks,

T8

[Oversleep]

So far we have no evidence that converting Investiture is possible. However, what Returned and Nightblood feed on is not Breath per se but rather Investiture (which Breath also is).

So they can feed off of Stormlight.

[Weltall]

Yeah, Returned can live off Investiture generally as long as they can get access to it and Stormlight is explicitly the easiest form of Investiture for someone like Vasher to get at. Brandon has also mentioned that Taldain would have been another good option, it's just that nobody can go there right now thanks to Autonomy. And Nightblood isn't a picky eater.

But direct conversion between Biochroma and Stormlight isn't possible so far as we know. Vasher has tried and (so far) failed to Awaken with Stormlight which means that direct conversion is probably impossible and a hack to use the latter in the place of the former might be possible but the guy who's in the best position to figure out how still hasn't managed it.

[Sam Script]

On 2017-6-17 at 9:53 PM, Oversleep said:

So far we have no evidence that converting Investiture is possible. However, what Returned and Nightblood feed on is not Breath per se but rather Investiture (which Breath also is).

So they can feed off of Stormlight.

Actually we got the Moon Sceptor in The Emperor's Soul and it has been confirmed to enabling Investiture converting.

 

Back to the topic, I believe that stormlight and BioChroma are pretty similar in functioning a lot of dynamics like bodies of Returneds or Nightblood, but they cannot be EXACTLY the same since these two Investiture are, still, belonged to different Intents.

I would say they are just like violet and pink, both of 'em work well on painting blossoms, but still different color, I guess

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Sam Script said:

Actually we got the Moon Sceptor in The Emperor's Soul and it has been confirmed to enabling Investiture converting.

The moon scepter has only been said to aid in translation between the investiture subgroups on Sel. While it's possible it may be able to be used more widely, there is currently no known way to convert between Shardic investiture types. 

[Oversleep]

30 minutes ago, Sam Script said:

Actually we got the Moon Sceptor in The Emperor's Soul and it has been confirmed to enabling Investiture converting.

Actually it would allow to translate SYMBOLS from one subsystem to another.

... I have trouble finding that WoB...

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Sam Script said:

pretty similar in functioning a lot of dynamics like bodies of Returned or Nightblood.

Because NB (and Returned as well) just need Investiture to eat, this similarity means nothing. (which has been an annoyance to most of us on here at some point, by the way)

Investiture is Investiture, regardless of its source. And to Nightblood, it's all just food. You could feed him Aons, the contents of a Metalmind, Taldain's Sunlight(ok this might be a stretch), Stormlight, Breath, it makes no difference to Nightblood. I don't see why there should be any difference to a Returned, with the exception the Stormlight and Taldain's Sunlight are easier to get than Metalminds and Aons.

[Calderis]

25 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Actually it would allow to translate SYMBOLS from one subsystem to another.

... I have trouble finding that WoB...

Absolutely true. Only reason I worded it the way I did, is that the symbols and their location are the only differences. The Dor fuels them all so converting investiture isn't even a factor. 

[+Extesian]

@Oversleep, @Calderis here is the WoB about it being a rosetta stone for Sel symbols (ie translation)

Quote

 

Source

3) In what way is the Moon Sceptre linked to the Dor?

Brandon - I think we can canonise this. So the Moon Sceptre-...so the sceptre is kinda like the Rosetta Stone. You can use it to translate the symbols from one system to the symbols of another and can use it to understand their meaning (paraphrased a bit, but simply put Moon Sceptre = Seliash/Selian Investiture Rosetta Stone) Almost thought I was going to get RAFO'd but I didn't 

 

It was asked by @ParadoxicalZen

And here's an interesting one indicating that its not just about translating, but proximity.

Quote

 Q: I've always wondered why Hoid stole the Moon Scepter from The Rose Empire. He is collecting investiture, so it must be pivotal. Is it possible that the Moon Scepter is connected directly to Dominion and Devotion's investiture (maybe via the moon-rocks?). If you have the Moon Scepter, you can get around the pesky proximity problem of the magic system(s)?
 
A: I'll talk about this eventually, but it IS related to the proximity problem--just not in the way you're assuming.

So I think it's basically that if you have access to love Sel magic system, with that 'translation' you can access your system in other parts of Sel. Or you can access other systems (though I doubt that more).

Edited June 20, 2017 by Extesian

[Calderis]

@Extesian I'm assuming you didn't mean to post the same WoB twice? 

[+Extesian]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Extesian I'm assuming you didn't mean to post the same WoB twice? 

Thanks Calderis I've corrected. Which is good because I love that WoB.

[Sam Script]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Investiture is Investiture, regardless of its source. And to Nightblood, it's all just food. 

Yes I agree w/ you that to this point Investiture is NB's food but I can barely agree with you saying Investiture from different Shards are all the same, depending on this interview: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1174

Entry 9 is pretty long so not gonna quote it fully right here.

Let's just say NB ignores the diversity of Investiture, and this cannot be seen as "there's no diversity in Investiture".

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Sam Script said:

saying Investiture from different Shards are all the same

Before being filtered into each magic system, all Investiture is exactly the same.

But my point was that I see no reason for one thing that needs Investiture to be limited to 2 out of the 6(7?) known types, when we know that another thing(from the same magic system) isn't limited at all by that filter. Stormlight can power Allomancy just like the Mists do, so a Returned should be able to feed on both of them as well.

Quote

"Q: Can Stormlight be used to fuel Allomancy like the mist in the Mistborn trilogy?
 
A: This is possible."

Additionally, we have this.

Quote

"Q: Vasher has shown us that he can substitute his need for Breath with another investiture (presumably Stormlight). To what extent is investiture interchangeable between magic systems?
 
A: Very interchangeable, but not always simple to apply."

 

[+Extesian]

@Sam Script I’ll try help this with an analogy I like.

So firstly, investiture in the Cosmere is simply another state. In our universe we have energy and matter, which are interchangeable and convertible, though with huge effort. In the Cosmere it’s energy, matter and investiture.

So imagine the ways we harness energy. We mostly do it through heat, whether that’s the heat generated by combusting petrol, or to turn a turbine in a gas/coal/nuclear generator. But you can’t just put a lump of uranium into a gas plant. Or coal into a nuclear plant. You have to use the fuel it’s designed for. That fuel still comes from the same thing, stored up energy that self-releases or is artificially released. But you can’t interchange the fuel.

I see magic systems in the Cosmere the same way. All investiture is investiture. But when Shards invested in planets, that gave rise to natural magic systems from the combination of the Shard’s flavour of investiture and the planet itself. So a surgebinder cannot just use Preservation’s investiture, because the system is not ‘designed’ to do that, like using coal in a nuclear plant. You have to do something to hack the system to allow the different fuel.

BUT something like Nightblood, or a Returned, isn’t using a flavour of investiture, a ‘fuel’ to use my analogy (and don’t mistake this with the Cosmere term ‘fuel’). They simply need ANY investiture to, in the case of a Returned, survive, and in the case of Nightblood, to eat and expend power. So you’re completely right that investiture from different Shards is different. But to some things in the Cosmere it’s all just universally usable fuel. For most magic systems though, they are attuned to a particular flavour of investiture, a particular fuel, and they are not interchangeable without a hack.

[Sam Script]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

@Sam Script I’ll try help this with an analogy I like.

So firstly, investiture in the Cosmere is simply another state. In our universe we have energy and matter, which are interchangeable and convertible, though with huge effort. In the Cosmere it’s energy, matter and investiture.

So imagine the ways we harness energy. We mostly do it through heat, whether that’s the heat generated by combusting petrol, or to turn a turbine in a gas/coal/nuclear generator. But you can’t just put a lump of uranium into a gas plant. Or coal into a nuclear plant. You have to use the fuel it’s designed for. That fuel still comes from the same thing, stored up energy that self-releases or is artificially released. But you can’t interchange the fuel.

I see magic systems in the Cosmere the same way. All investiture is investiture. But when Shards invested in planets, that gave rise to natural magic systems from the combination of the Shard’s flavour of investiture and the planet itself. So a surgebinder cannot just use Preservation’s investiture, because the system is not ‘designed’ to do that, like using coal in a nuclear plant. You have to do something to hack the system to allow the different fuel.

BUT something like Nightblood, or a Returned, isn’t using a flavour of investiture, a ‘fuel’ to use my analogy (and don’t mistake this with the Cosmere term ‘fuel’). They simply need ANY investiture to, in the case of a Returned, survive, and in the case of Nightblood, to eat and expend power. So you’re completely right that investiture from different Shards is different. But to some things in the Cosmere it’s all just universally usable fuel. For most magic systems though, they are attuned to a particular flavour of investiture, a particular fuel, and they are not interchangeable without a hack.

@Extesian @The One Who Connects Okay, fair enough; I used to have the same thought as u both stated, but got confused by the very interview entry I shared above. Thanks for different explanations ((heart))

[Sam Script]

So this thread may be concluded that:

Stormlight and BioChroma are "almost" the same as they are both Investiture, but manifesting in different mode something

Stormlight and BioChroma are NOT EXACTLY the same as they are of different Shards and magic system.

(That seems to be the same as we used to acknowledge...)

[ParadoxicalZen]

I would both agree and disagree on that Investiture is Investiture point. We could speculate that; when Adonalsium was whole, Investiture was Investiture but when it/he/she/they were split into the 16 Shards, the Investiture became...flavoured with the different Intents/Mandates/Characteristics/Properties/Traits we now know, as demonstrated by certain characters becoming more Connected to certain Shards through certain actions and objects. However, given each Shardworld has a different Focus, it is highly possible given each Shard's I/M/C/P/T would interact a little differently with the world, either possibly creating an entirely new magic system, or altering the current one so it may operate a little differently. Not to mention, both BioChroma and Stormlight are gaseous forms of the respective Investitures, so they're similar in that regard.

The main thing when it comes to NB, but more importantly, Returned is; how much of the native Investiture is present (if they've worldhopped); what form it is in; and how accessible it is, as they need it to live whereas NB just likes to omnomnom. It would be interesting to see if a Returned is or can be affected by the flavour of the Investiture they consume (probably not unless they can hack it to power some form of magic) and if they are either more resistant or liable to certain I/M/C/P/T and what Investiture matter states are best for consuming investiture.

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

We could speculate that; when Adonalsium was whole, Investiture was Investiture but when it/he/she/they were split into the 16 Shards, the Investiture became...flavoured with the different Intents/Mandates/Characteristics/Properties/Traits we now know,

Investiture is consistent in the Spiritual Realm.

Quote

"Q: Does investiture have a consistent form (regardless of magic system and its Physical form) in one of the other realms?
 
A: It's consistent in the Spiritual Realm. Location isn't particularly important there."

---

6 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

it is highly possible given each Shard's I/M/C/P/T would interact a little differently with the world, either possibly creating an entirely new magic system, or altering the current one so it may operate a little differently.

RAFO.

Quote

"Q: A question I've been thinking about recently: In Warbreaker we see Nightblood's consciousness shift dramatically when he is actively consuming investiture. Does the Shardic flavor of that investiture (Breath vs Stormlight or Preservation Mist vs Ruin Mist) influence how his mind functions in that state?
 
A: RAFO, actually. Good question."

[ParadoxicalZen]

15 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Investiture is consistent in the Spiritual Realm.

 

I take that to mean Investiture as whole is still Investiture, especially with the Location part (meaning, it is has still has most of the general properties of Investiture regardless of flavour), which would relate back to it's Spiritual Ideal. I was just thinking more along the lines of I = Adonalsium whereas Shard = i+H (insert any other example Shard here)

[The One Who Connects]

13 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

I was just thinking more along the lines of I = Adonalsium whereas Shard = i+H (insert any other example Shard here)

I was interpreting the WoB in that Investiture is Investiture in the Spiritual. It still has the Intent, but most of the other differences are more "flavoring" when it gets drawn into the Physical/Cognitive. Not to say that really contradicts you that much, but discussion is good.

[Tate]

Sorry guys, I was on scout camp, but thanks for the answers!