Speculation on the importance of the color Red

[Naurock]

I'm flipping through the Way of Kings ebook and came to the chapter of Kaladin after the high storm. He said he's delusional, but he sees Syl chase off deathspren which have red eyes. This seemed like a good place to bring this up.

My original thought process was like others, the red eyes are a symbol of another shard exerting force on a planet that's already heavily invested by other shards (a la Odium on Roshar, Trell on Scadrial).

[Blightsong]

36 minutes ago, Naurock said:

I'm flipping through the Way of Kings ebook and came to the chapter of Kaladin after the high storm. He said he's delusional, but he sees Syl chase off deathspren which have red eyes. This seemed like a good place to bring this up.

My original thought process was like others, the red eyes are a symbol of another shard exerting force on a planet that's already heavily invested by other shards (a la Odium on Roshar, Trell on Scadrial).

Then whats up with Shades? WoB is that no shard has heavily invested in Threnody.

[Steeldancer]

2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Then whats up with Shades? WoB is that no shard has heavily invested in Threnody.

Well perhaps they connect to a different shard when somebody breaks the simple rules. It can't be a coincidence that their eyes turn red. Maybe we'll learn more once we see the evil and whatever the deepest ones are

[Borio Singaldi]

This is just me, but I've always associated the frequent appearances of the color red with Odium. It's a weird habit of mine where I try pairing Shards with colors. But if while we're on the topic of red being a frequent occurrence in the cosmere with some potential importance, then what about... Shu-Dereth?

[Naurock]

6 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Then whats up with Shades? WoB is that no shard has heavily invested in Threnody.

Yes, but Arcanum Unbounded hints that Adonalsium originally invested on Threnody. Threnodites apparently knew how to become Cognitive Shadows upon death (See Nazh from Mistborn: Secret History) and when Odium and Ambition fought in space nearby the damage Ambition took literally sent massive waves of investiture twisting everything on the planet. Seems like that's what created the Shades. Idk why the rules are so important to them, though, just corrupted beings.

[Steeldancer]

14 hours ago, Firerust the Terris Gyorn said:

This is just me, but I've always associated the frequent appearances of the color red with Odium. It's a weird habit of mine where I try pairing Shards with colors. But if while we're on the topic of red being a frequent occurrence in the cosmere with some potential importance, then what about... Shu-Dereth?

We learned in a WoB that the red eyes are not associated with any particular shard. 

 

11 hours ago, Naurock said:

Yes, but Arcanum Unbounded hints that Adonalsium originally invested on Threnody. Threnodites apparently knew how to become Cognitive Shadows upon death (See Nazh from Mistborn: Secret History) and when Odium and Ambition fought in space nearby the damage Ambition took literally sent massive waves of investiture twisting everything on the planet. Seems like that's what created the Shades. Idk why the rules are so important to them, though, just corrupted beings.

Ok, if they were able to do that before and they had ceremonies to become one, and it is those ceremonies that the simple rules are based on? Furthermore, if adonalsium is what was the original power on threnody, why doesn't everybody on roshar also have red eyes? Unless the matter is changing the rules on the planet, and because honor and cultivation embraced the way that adonalsium set up the planet, and ambition changed the rules (red eyes) and odium changed the rules (again red eyes) now that might work. Do you get what I'm getting at?

[Blightsong]

14 hours ago, Naurock said:

Yes, but Arcanum Unbounded hints that Adonalsium originally invested on Threnody. Threnodites apparently knew how to become Cognitive Shadows upon death (See Nazh from Mistborn: Secret History) and when Odium and Ambition fought in space nearby the damage Ambition took literally sent massive waves of investiture twisting everything on the planet. Seems like that's what created the Shades. Idk why the rules are so important to them, though, just corrupted beings.

Adonalsium originally invested every Shardworld we've seen except for Scadrial, so I don't see your point. Following this train of logic, every Spren on Roshar would have red eyes.

 

We really don't know what created the shades, and WoB is that they are a product of how the Cosmere works and it's rules, not a specific Shard's investiture. Also, isn't this case, massive waves of investiture is relative. We don't actually know how much affected the system, but because we have WoB that it is a very low investiture system, we can assume it isn't that much comparatively.

[Steeldancer]

On 4/29/2017 at 0:23 PM, Blightsong said:

Adonalsium originally invested every Shardworld we've seen except for Scadrial, so I don't see your point. Following this train of logic, every Spren on Roshar would have red eyes.

 

We really don't know what created the shades, and WoB is that they are a product of how the Cosmere works and it's rules, not a specific Shard's investiture. Also, isn't this case, massive waves of investiture is relative. We don't actually know how much affected the system, but because we have WoB that it is a very low investiture system, we can assume it isn't that much comparatively.

This is kind of my point. So the shards who invested most of these worlds followed the rules that Adonalsium had set up previously. But things with red eyes are evidence of things breaking these rules. Like spren becoming corrupted, or kandra that aren't really kandra

[Vissy]

On 24.4.2017 at 11:01 PM, What's a Seawolf? said:

Maybe red just means corrupted?

Although I like the idea that all the red/corruption in the Cosmere is unknowingly growing/powering some greater big bad, something akin to your idea of investiture that has developed independent intelligence.

According to WoB, corrupted in turn just means mixed investiture, the investiture of different Shards mixing together. And the color of mixed investiture has always, so far as we've seen (Nightblood, Gavilar's Sphere) been black. Red is a color which is only ever associated with Odium in the series.

[Steeldancer]

16 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

According to WoB, corrupted in turn just means mixed investiture, the investiture of different Shards mixing together. And the color of mixed investiture has always, so far as we've seen (Nightblood, Gavilar's Sphere) been black. Red is a color which is only ever associated with Odium in the series.

I will note that Brandon says that the corruption we had pointed out so far. That does not leave out that there might be actual true corruption of investiture, just that the black stuff isn't it. But red... nothing says that isn't actual corruption. 

[Yitzi2]

On 4/25/2017 at 10:38 PM, ILuvHats said:

Could red have anything to do with Adonalsium's opposite (as confirmed by WoB)?  I mean, since the God Beyond created everything, presumably his opposite would seek to undo what he did and destroy everything.

I don't think it is at all clear that the God Beyond refers to Adonalsium.

[DocHoliday]

Anyone considered red-shift being the cause of Taln's Scar?

I mean, is there a WoB that clarifies Taln's Scar is red "supernaturaly" or is a simple mechanic of physics? And if so, is the cause of that red-shift Investiture related?

What if a Shard is going AWOL with their (super/sub)-cluster of invested stars/Solar system?

[Djarskublar]

I would just like to point out a few things. Many spren are composed of Honor/Cultivation Investiture. They are therefore corrupted by Brandon's definition. They don't have red eyes. Or any red that we've seen.

I personally think red is insignificant to the general Cosmere. There may be a Shard or three that associate red with 'evil' but that doesn't mean red is important overall. It's the same with numbers. It's just good imagery for us readers.

I would feel really bad if I was the Returned with a red palace if this was the case. I am the Returned Djar the Evil! No thanks.

This makes me wonder, though. Are certain colors better for awakening than others? Say, some shade of green vs blue? Assuming the same intensity of color.

I really feel we are looking too close into the color red.

[Yitzi2]

7 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

Anyone considered red-shift being the cause of Taln's Scar?

I mean, is there a WoB that clarifies Taln's Scar is red "supernaturaly" or is a simple mechanic of physics? And if so, is the cause of that red-shift Investiture related?

What if a Shard is going AWOL with their (super/sub)-cluster of invested stars/Solar system?

If it were being red-shifted enough for those stars to actually appear red, I'm pretty sure they would have enough movement to be noticeable from other systems.

[Complexityspren]

Breeze also mentions in The Hero of Ages

Quote

"Well, if I were a force of doom, then I certainly wouldn't have used my power to turn the land black. It just lacks flair. Red. Now, that would be an interesting color. Think of the possibilities- if the ash were red, then the rivers would run like blood. Black is so monotonous that you can forget about it, but red- you'd always be thinking, 'Why, look at that. That hill is red. That evil force of doom trying to destroy me certainly has style.'"

This could be foreshadowing for a doom-force such as Odium which is more actively Evil than Ruin was, and it associates that hypothetical force with red.

[Djarskublar]

On 5/4/2017 at 5:04 PM, Yitzi2 said:

If it were being red-shifted enough for those stars to actually appear red, I'm pretty sure they would have enough movement to be noticeable from other systems.

It is. Just under different names. For example, the Red Rip.

On 5/8/2017 at 3:32 PM, Complexityspren said:

Breeze also mentions in The Hero of Ages

This could be foreshadowing for a doom-force such as Odium which is more actively Evil than Ruin was, and it associates that hypothetical force with red.

Lol. Breeze is the final boss of era 2 confirmed

Seriously though, that's an interesting point.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Djarskublar said:

It is. Just under different names. For example, the Red Rip.

I think he specifically meant that if the color were due to red shift, it would be visibly moving enough to be noticed. 

[Djarskublar]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I think he specifically meant that if the color were due to red shift, it would be visibly moving enough to be noticed. 

I guess that makes sense too. Ambiguous wording. Still, I don't know a lot about astrophysics, but isn't everything red shifting? Maybe it's just moving really fast for some reason. I'm not sure how that would work into the 3D aspect of it all with different viewpoint planets.

[Vissy]

Not everything. Some things are moving away from us and some are moving towards us, redshift and blueshift respectively. For example in our own universe, Andromeda is moving towards our Milky Way which is why we can see blueshift when we observe it. Taln's Scar is apparently a string of planets / stars. It might be due to Odium's influence or because of redshift or because of both. I think if it was *only* redshift, Brandon wouldn't have RAFOed all of the questions pertaining Taln's Scars. There's something Realmatically interesting going on in that place.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Yitzi2]

15 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

It is. Just under different names. For example, the Red Rip.

I must have been unclear: I didn't mean that Taln's scar should be noticeable from other systems.  I meant that, if it were moving fast enough for the red color to be due to redshifting, that movement should be noticeable in the systems from which it can be seen.  i.e. Taln's Scar at the time of the Last Desolation should be in a different place in the sky (and a lot closer) than at the current day.

Edit: Just saw that Calderis already explained what I meant.  So I wasn't all that unclear.

And yes, most things are red-shifting due to the expansion of the universe...but even leaving aside the exceptions like Andromeda, for something to red-shift so much that the stars appear red (rather than just a tiny bit redder) due to that it would have to be quite far away, and Taln's Scar does seem to be in the same dwarf galaxy as the others.

To put it another way: Dwarf galaxies seem to range from 200 to 8000 light-years across; let's assume the Cosmere is 1000.  Then if Taln's Scar were moving fast enough for yellow stars to appear red due to redshift, it would cross the Cosmere in about 7500 years (I'm approximating and assuming quite a bit, but somewhere in the 5000-10000 years range seems fairly likely.)  That's a while, but noticeably moving in the sky would take a lot less time.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Yitzi2

[Steeldancer]

17 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

It is. Just under different names. For example, the Red Rip.

Lol. Breeze is the final boss of era 2 confirmed

Seriously though, that's an interesting point.

Red is directly something going on as confirmed by WoB. 

[The One Who Connects]

4 minutes ago, The Flash said:

Red is directly something going on as confirmed by WoB. 

Can you link this WoB?

[Steeldancer]

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Can you link this WoB?

I would love to... I actually just don't know how. Is it the link function? Anyway for now here is a copy and paste: Are all the red-eyed characters influenced by the same shard?  No, but the red is significant.  (it has meaning in the cosmere)

Edited May 10, 2017 by The Flash

[The One Who Connects]

5 minutes ago, The Flash said:

I would love to... I actually just don't know how. Is it the link function? 

Yes, although you can copy/paste links into your post as well.

It might also be useful to copy the WoB itself into a quotebox so that it's in the discussion(because some mobile users and links don't always work together)

[Andy92]

I found another one that touches on the concept from 2015 on a Shadows of Self tour according to the tags.

Quote

KAYLA

Is the use of the color red before/during bad events a deliberate pattern?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.