Shardic Pairs - Villains beyond Odium?

[Silarn]

I think we've already had a lot of hints that the investiture system on Scadrial was modeled closely after the nature of Adonalsium and the Shards. 16 powers, each with opposing pairs. It's heavily implied that Ruin and Preservation were not just happy partners but indeed perfect opposites. Two sides of the same coin. They belonged together - not just as two parts of the same overarching power but as aspects in their own right. I think this is further supported by some recent answers by Sanderson about the theoretical matchup of Honor and Odium. He says they would pair well but were not a perfect match.

We also know that there are supposedly a total 16 shards in the Cosmere, with only 10 currently accounted for in some manner. However, even with four Shards totally unknown - we should at least have two perfect pairs. Even if the remaining four paired 'perfectly' with those we currently know about - that leaves four that we already know.

In this sense, though we may not have a perfect definition of all of these shards' intents, we can at least make some decent guesses based on their names alone.

While this is conjecture - I think the best pairings I can come up with based on our current knowledge would perhaps be Dominion/Autonomy or Devotion/Ambition (though I could easily see the pair of Ambition being the Shard that just wants to hide).

But that leaves us with a lot of Shards with no obvious pair. I'm not sure what the opposite of Endowment would be, though it would seem to be something about taking rather than giving. But we can make some interesting inferences about other Shards.

Since Honor is not a perfect 'pair' to Odium, we don't have a good opposite for it. But Deceit/Betrayal/Subterfuge seem like some of the best alternatives. Yet I don't know of another Shard matching those words just yet. Similarly, Cultivation implies growth, and an opposite might be Stagnation or Repression (not necessarily destructive or hateful like Ruin and Odium).

Not all is negative though, as we have no opposite of Odium. Devotion seems close, but better would be Compassion or perhaps Empathy.

I think these missing 'pairs' have quite a bit to do with what must follow the Stormlight Archives...

 

I find it unlikely that we will have not dealt, in some way, with Odium by the time the series ends. I don't doubt that things will likely get a lot worse and maybe Odium will even survive. But the missing Shards leave open a lot of space for perhaps even graver Shard threats and alliances. The mysterious red constellation - the red rip - taln's scar. This could well be a threat that predates Adonalsium or the Shattering - but it could also be a home to several negative Shards - the pairs of those we already know.

 

If there is indeed an opposite of Honor as yet unknown - a Shard of Deceit, say - this seems to fit quite well with the mysterious Set and their seeming connection to Trell. The Set works with a network of subterfuge and secrecy. They also imply that they don't want Scadrial to advance, technologically, and must cleanse the planet. Perhaps a force of repression?

It make sense to me that there may be more than a single Shard confronting Harmony. After all, while one aspect of Harmony may be slightly weakened by giving the spark of intellect to Humanity on Scadrial, he still wields the majority of the power of two shards. That immediately makes him far more powerful than any one other Shard, probably even a determined Odium.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Silarn

[Calderis he/him]

To start with I'd recommend Reading this thread if you haven't. 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/58284-narrowing-down-the-last-shards-au/

It's fairly recent and touches on a few of your points, and discusses a lot about the "pairings" 

I do want to point out that Brandon has said not all shard have perfect opposites though. For example, Ruin, Preservation, and Cultivation seem to be three points on a spectrum, with Ruin and Cultivation as the opposites of growth and decay with Preservation in the center as a form of stasis. 

I do like the idea of a Shard of Subtlety though, encompasses deceit, betrayal and misdirection, as an opposite of Honor. 

[Silarn]

Fair enough, I hadn't seen that particular info from him yet. On the other hand, I see some problems with throwing cultivation into the mix with Harmony. Their duality is strongly implied in Hero of Ages. Preservation, by itself, is a bit closer to stagnation, with less negative connotations. Without ruin forcing decay and change, there would be no room for cultivation. Adding cultivation to the mix, then, would allow that change to flourish. Cultivation is more of a guided growth, but growth can still happen without cultivation. Oppression may be a truer opposite to cultivation.

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Silarn said:

Fair enough, I hadn't seen that particular info from him yet. On the other hand, I see some problems with throwing cultivation into the mix with Harmony. Their duality is strongly implied in Hero of Ages. Preservation, by itself, is a bit closer to stagnation, with less negative connotations. Without ruin forcing decay and change, there would be no room for cultivation. Adding cultivation to the mix, then, would allow that change to flourish. Cultivation is more of a guided growth, but growth can still happen without cultivation. Oppression may be a truer opposite to cultivation.

Welcome to the shard! Have an upvote. This is an interesting idea. And does anybody bother to read my thread on the scar? Please do! People keep mentioning it and it's KILLING ME

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/58593-talns-scar/

Btw I actually don't know how to link a different thread... but yeah speculation on the thread and what it may represent there. 

 

[Silarn]

Thanks - yeah, I've been keeping an eye on the theories since Way of Kings came out (and I started to really catch on to the Cosmere stuff) and just finished a reread of the original Mistborn Trilogy (which was originally loaned to me and I didn't have my own copy for quite some time) after which I decided to fully jump in.

Since Taln's Scar etc. etc. has seemed to be cropping up more and more in the last few years, I think it's a significant foreshadowing that it's more than just some random constellation. Exactly what that means is hard to say, though!

--

Made a few additions and alterations to my OP. Particularly in relation to the driving power behind the Set and the 'red force' confronting Harmony.

--

However, I've just read some more stuff regarding Autonomy and I could be convinced that she may be behind "Trell". The fact that she meddles didn't seem strong enough to me to equate to destroying the whole world, though. I'm still somewhat of mind that it may be Autonomy working with another shard. Again, it seems foolhardy for any one shard to go up against Harmony, with the power of two shards. This could be Odium, but something just tells me that it's not Odium's direct hand at work there - even despite the red eyes. Maybe I'm wrong.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Silarn

[ZenBossanova]

I think any Shard could be a villian, or a hero, depending on the intelligence directing them. 

I think it is a better question (and unfortunately a much harder question to answer) to ask if the personalities that hold the shards would be villians. 

I suspect, that they all really think what they are doing is for the best, but that just might involve mass destruction. Even Hoid isn't adverse to that, if it has to come to that. They have strong motivation for their goals. We just don't know what those goals really are, or why they have them. We are going to need for Dragonsteel to get a full explanation, unless we get really lucky. (The Liar of Partinel suggests some things, but that isn't canon, yet)

[Silarn]

49 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I think any Shard could be a villian, or a hero, depending on the intelligence directing them. 

I think it is a better question (and unfortunately a much harder question to answer) to ask if the personalities that hold the shards would be villians. 

I suspect, that they all really think what they are doing is for the best, but that just might involve mass destruction. Even Hoid isn't adverse to that, if it has to come to that. They have strong motivation for their goals. We just don't know what those goals really are, or why they have them. We are going to need for Dragonsteel to get a full explanation, unless we get really lucky. (The Liar of Partinel suggests some things, but that isn't canon, yet)

I think that's possible to an extent, but remember that the people that retain the most autonomy over their Shard's Intent are those that have personalities that gel with that intent. Rayse was selfish and hateful, in addition to desiring absolute power. He doesn't want his Intent to be muddled by the Intents of other shards. Since his personality is so compatible, he's quite dangerous because he's less controlled by his own Shard.

Contrast that against Ati, who was originally kindly, and his psyche was almost entirely perverted by the Intent of Ruin, his original personality supplanted because it basically wasn't very compatible. Note that he's extremely confused before 'passing on', after being killed. You get the sense that he just doesn't remember much about being Ruin. His mind basically just became the intelligence for Ruin to use.

So the more innately benevolent a Shard's Intent is, the less likely they are to be villainous. That being said, there are several shards we know of that are fairly neutral, in that sense, and they could be swung one way or another with a highly compatible Vessel. I have the feeling Bavadin fits this bill - and that she may well have worked with Odium/Rayse when it was in her interests - in keeping with Autonomy. However, I can easily see her switching allegiances if Odium became a threat.

I still don't necessarily feel that this makes sense as a motivation to oppress Scadrial's technological growth, however. I can't help but feel that we have an as-yet-unknown force driving that conflict. I feel like Odium would be extremely wary of Harmony - particularly since it inflames his worst fears about the merging of Shards.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Silarn

[ZenBossanova]

I suspect that when we understand the reasons for why Rayse wants the shards shattered, we might even partially agree with him. It will be a compelling reason. 

I suspect that the reason behind shattering Adonalsium and various shards is the same reason. They probably didn't want to kill Adonalsium, but didn't feel like they had a realistic choice.

[Silarn]

2 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I suspect that when we understand the reasons for why Rayse wants the shards shattered, we might even partially agree with him. It will be a compelling reason. 

I suspect that the reason behind shattering Adonalsium and various shards is the same reason. They probably didn't want to kill Adonalsium, but didn't feel like they had a realistic choice.

I agree insofar as to why Adonalsium was originally shattered... What we know about the original Vessels seems to indicate that they were far too diverse a group to have been merely after power.

However, I'm not convinced that Rayse has a bigger reason beyond wanting to be the most powerful guy around, and he doesn't want to risk losing the Intent he agrees with by merging with another Shard. It might change his persona too much. So, best to shatter the other Shards and remove the possibility/temptation while eliminating the competition.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Silarn

[kaellok he/him]

On 4/3/2017 at 5:31 PM, Silarn said:

Fair enough, I hadn't seen that particular info from him yet. On the other hand, I see some problems with throwing cultivation into the mix with Harmony. Their duality is strongly implied in Hero of Ages. Preservation, by itself, is a bit closer to stagnation, with less negative connotations. Without ruin forcing decay and change, there would be no room for cultivation. Adding cultivation to the mix, then, would allow that change to flourish. Cultivation is more of a guided growth, but growth can still happen without cultivation. Oppression may be a truer opposite to cultivation.

If you look at Hindu, the goddess triumvirate Tridevi comprises Mahasaraswati to Create, Mahalaxmi to Preserve, and Mahakali to Destroy.  Such a triumvirate already exists within a current human religious system, and so I think it fits neatly (given Sanderson's propensity to borrow themes from the real world that fit well within his own)--especially since all 16 Shards have to fit together to create one Deific All-Being.  It seems likely to me that there will be at least a few different axes that the Shards would lay upon, and would be the easiest to merge back together.  So one axis would be Preservation/Cultivation/Ruin (and probably one other Shard as well).

Honestly, in order to try and predict what the unknown Shards are, I would look to polytheistic religions, or religions that have very defined Aspects and Attributes of their deity.  The Shards are portions of God, after all

Given the strong duality implied by Hero of Ages is easily explained by the fact that only Preservation and Ruin were known about at all in the book.  Greater knowledge of the Cosmere and its history are absent.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

In a relatively recent WoB (might've been Leipzig, come to think of it) we learned that Odium's bearer was human, but we also got a "not anymore" from that same question. This has led me to infer that even meshing with your Shard's Intent can only keep you separate for so long, and that Rayse is well and truly warped by Odium, just as Ati was.

The point is that while Rayse's motivations may have shaped Odium's actions, those motivations are probably set in stone now, filtered through pure hatred.

[Silarn]

@The One Who Connects That may simply mean that becoming a Vessel in and of itself transforms you into something that's not really human anymore. I'm not sure that answer necessarily speaks to their personality or individuality. Certainly, over time your decisions are going to be bound more and more to your Shard's intent, but I thought it had been pretty established already that having a personality much more inline with your Shard's Intent would allow you to preserve far more of your original personality and drives.

Basically, at this point Rayse isn't going to have a change of heart. His Hatred is absolute. That doesn't preclude him from, say, hating certain individuals more than others - based on his past life. Being totally consumed by his Intent would probably mean he couldn't really work with another Shard to further his goals. The pure hatred wouldn't allow it... But I think it's likely he was/is willing to work with Bavadin because he had a connection to her as Rayse. He'll eventually kill her too, but he'll work with her now to kill those he hates more.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Silarn

[+Extesian he/him]

Yeah the Poland signing had this

Quote

Q:I wanted to ask, is the shardbearer of Odium a human?

A: Not any longer.

Q:Ok, that's... I didn't expect that one

A: But what the answer to your question you really want to know is, was he originally human?

Q:yeah

A:Yes. That's a good question!

I think it's simply about sDNA? We've been told before Hoid is essentially not human any more

Quote

QUESTION

Is Hoid human?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hoid was human a long time ago. Now... It's complicated. We would call him human, and so will pretty much everyone else, but he is not exactly that.

I'm guessing it would be the same answer about TLR and anyone else who has had vast changes to their sDNA. 

[Thanatos]

Talking about any shard can potentially be a villain... 

Kel with Honor... Honor amongst theives. Lol

Although Kel is not a villain i consider him being an anti-hero

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thanatos

[Silarn]

@Thanatos I agree that this is a possible path for Kelsier. His Snapping turned him into a better man, but he was also still after revenge to some extent. He only barely empathized with the nobility by the time he died. In death, he has also become obsessed with Survival. He still cared enough to help stop Ruin from destroying everyone he loved, but that didn't put him above potentially using Spook to experiment with hemalurgy and return to the physical realm. (Despite considerable pressure to pass on.) It remains to be seen if he'll end up being a force of good or evil now that he's a sliver. It's not clear how much Sazed can see into the future as Harmony, but it's interesting that he tried to dissuade Kelsier from finding a way back into a body.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Silarn

[Thanatos]

Well he does team up with Hoid in Mistborn era 4. The space one. 

But i dont think anyone but a shard can assemble a shattered shard. 

Also how do u reply to someones post?

[Jondesu he/him]

13 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Well he does team up with Hoid in Mistborn era 4. The space one.

I don't think we know that he teams up with Hoid, and in fact I suspect it's very much the opposite.  It probably won't be as simple as them being antagonists exactly, but we know that they hate each other (or at least there would be a strong chance of violence if they were in the same room) and while it's possible they would work together against a common enemy, I don't expect that's what will be happening.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Kelsier is leading the Scadrian space forces, and runs afoul of Hoid in an attempt to conquer or take control of another planet or some portion of it.

I also would bet it's entirely possible (though incredibly difficult) to reassemble a Shard without being one yourself.  The prevailing theory I've heard is that you'd have to collect enough of the splinters that you reach a sort of "critical mass" that would allow you to ascend, though you'd probably still be weaker than other Shards until you could find and reabsorb all of the various splinters. Kelsier would be one of the people driven enough to actually succeed at that, if he learns how.

To reply to a post, just click the "Quote" button under their post, or you can respond to multiple posts at once by clicking the + button under each of the ones you want, and then there will be a "Multiquote" button that hovers on the bottom right corner of the screen.  Works on mobile or a computer.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Jondesu

[Silarn]

@Jondesu I agree, for the most part, though it's hard to say with Kelsier. We know that, as a cognitive shadow, he couldn't fully absorb Preservation's power. However, he was transformed a bit by holding it. Perhaps being a Sliver now makes him a bit more compatible - and I suppose if he does manage to regain a body then perhaps that's another facet.

Brandon has cloaked both Hoid and Kelsier's drives and actions enough that it's hard to know where they're going to fall in the end. Hoid seems more than happy to ignore a world's problems or attack strangers when it suits his purposes - but he's also shown a measure of compassion, giving advice and even physical help on several occasions. I tend to think he means well in the long run but is a bit Machiavellian. But he may also be misguided and is clearly gradually collecting powers for his own purposes.

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, Silarn said:

@Jondesu I agree, for the most part, though it's hard to say with Kelsier. We know that, as a cognitive shadow, he couldn't fully absorb Preservation's power. However, he was transformed a bit by holding it. Perhaps being a Sliver now makes him a bit more compatible - and I suppose if he does manage to regain a body then perhaps that's another facet.

I have some problem to believe that Slierhood gives him an advantage to pick up.

He was already using a trick to become the perfect host and honestly if his time as Preservation didn't improved his chances to manipulate the Shard (I mean while he was holding It)...I really doubt some residues could do something.

PS: notice also that Kelsier was already something like a Preservation's Sliver due the influence of Well's Investiture. I don't think there is a good difference between him and Ati After his Death (except one is of Preservation and the other of Ruin)

Edited April 7, 2017 by Yata

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

He COULD have picked up Ruin though, and he's probably be able to pick up Ambition or Autonomy. Odium too actually... Honor would not be the best fit; but possibly better than Preservation. (Kell does have a code of some sort, albeit not necessarily one we'd agree with.) Cultivation could actually suit him very well; he's VERY good at that. I doubt he will Ascend again though; he already made the choice to NOT take up a Shard when he could. I also got the indication that Kell is on a hero's journey which will span all four eras. Having him take up a Shard feels like a waste.

I think, provided Kell was changed, being a Sliver might have made him a stronger Mistborn. And imparted a lot of info he can't consciously access. I doubt it would enable him to take up another Shard more easily.

I disagree that he's obsessed with survival though; yes, he wants to live if he can and he'll try his best to do so, but that isn't the same thing. He was very surprised Ruin didn't kill him when he gave up Preservation. He certainly expected to die properly that time, but it didn't stop him from doing the right thing. And I don't blame him for not going beyond; as far as he is concerned oblivion awaits him there. Why would he possibly want to go? I don't blame him for wanting to rejoin the physical realm either or for trying to get help; the way he returned though... well, I'm holding off judgement until I know exactly what he did. Highly suspicious however...

And Spook's choices are his own.

Personally, I suspect Era 4 will have Scadrial journey to Yolen, and we will be dealing with a scouting team. And Kell and Hoid will be VERY reluctant allies, who will annoy and amuse (but mostly annoy) the other characters with their passive aggressive interactions.

[Yata he/him]

On 7/4/2017 at 7:50 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He COULD have picked up Ruin though, and he's probably be able to pick up Ambition or Autonomy. Odium too actually... Honor would not be the best fit; but possibly better than Preservation. (Kell does have a code of some sort, albeit not necessarily one we'd agree with.) Cultivation could actually suit him very well; he's VERY good at that. I doubt he will Ascend again though; he already made the choice to NOT take up a Shard when he could. I also got the indication that Kell is on a hero's journey which will span all four eras. Having him take up a Shard feels like a waste.

He could have picked up Ruin with the same outcome of his Preservation (but without the Ire's orb needed) He was Connected enough to Ruin but he was still a CS, therefore a second class Vessel, with limited access to Shard's possibility and something like that. The same thing will happen for every compatible Shard.

On 7/4/2017 at 7:50 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think, provided Kell was changed, being a Sliver might have made him a stronger Mistborn. And imparted a lot of info he can't consciously access. I doubt it would enable him to take up another Shard more easily.

Honestly I don't think, Ire's Orb gave him all the Connection to Preservation He needs. If He was a living being probably this would make him Ascend to a Preservation who could actually do stuff (If He doesn't try to act aganist the Mandate), so I think be a Sliver didn't change this thing too much (notice also he was already a Mistborn and spent at least an year in Preservation's perpendicularity...his Connection to Preservation didn't seems significative aganist his natural one to Ruin).

Lastly but this is really tangential, I don't think become a Preservation's Slive gave you Mistborn's power or boosts your already present abilities and honestly I am neither to faitful Kelsier retains his former Allomancy after his death.

[Calderis he/him]

15 minutes ago, Yata said:

Lastly but this is really tangential, I don't think become a Preservation's Slive gave you Mistborn's power or boosts your already present abilities and honestly I am neither to faitful Kelsier retains his former Allomancy after his death.

How could his death have effected his ability to use his Allomancy? Allomantic ability is written into someone's sDNA and his connection to the spiritual realm wasn't broken. Without the connection to the physical realm he has no way to manifest his ability, but it should still be intact. Once he regains his body, what would hinder his spiritual aspect from expressing it's magic through what is effectively a new "vessel" for Kelsier? 

[Yata he/him]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

How could his death have effected his ability to use his Allomancy? Allomantic ability is written into someone's sDNA and his connection to the spiritual realm wasn't broken. Without the connection to the physical realm he has no way to manifest his ability, but it should still be intact. Once he regains his body, what would hinder his spiritual aspect from expressing it's magic through what is effectively a new "vessel" for Kelsier? 

His Soul was also replaced by Preservation's Investiture and binded to Scadrial/Realms/Shards in different ways....The difference between a living being and a Shadow isn't only the cutted physical string.

So I am unsure He could be again a Mistborn once he returned with a physical body. I didn't mean "He has no more his Allomancy" but "we can't be sure He is still an Allomancer".

Of course this doesn't prevent him from gaining Allomancy again with some external source (Hemalurgy/Lerasium/Medallion tech).

Edited April 8, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis he/him]

@Yata I can see what you're saying but disagree. Yes his investiture has been suffused and replaced with that of Preservation, but that power basically replaced the existing framework. I find the idea of his powers being strengthen by the expansion of having held a shard more likely than that power wiping away the framework that makes Kelsier who he is. If it did that, I don't think a Cognitive Shadow would be recognizably the same person. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Yata I can see what you're saying but disagree. Yes his investiture has been suffused and replaced with that of Preservation, but that power basically replaced the existing framework. I find the idea of his powers being strengthen by the expansion of having held a shard more likely than that power wiping away the framework that makes Kelsier who he is. If it did that, I don't think a Cognitive Shadow would be recognizably the same person. 

Well Rashek had to activelly use the Shard's power to gift himself Allomancy so be a Sliver to default didn't give you Mistborn's power.

On another note (but maybe it's better to start a new topic instead of go too off topic there) the Lerasium (for example) rewrite your Spirit Web without change "who you are" so the two things could be done without change the "you" (that is mostly Cognitive). The Investiture want to be used, so it's possible the Spirit-web's "useless part" over time start to twist to accomodate new functions and losing his original purpose.

Again, I am not saying this is the way the Cognitive Shadows work, simply we can't be sure any scenario yet. We know too little, as far as we know Honor's choice of giving the Surgebinding via Honorblade to Heralds could be dictated by their impossibility to their Spirit-web to keep this ability in their long time intervals without a physical body.

We know too little