Telmond Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 So I was wondering if there's a direct correlation between Ruin and seeing into the future. Why does burning Atium specifically give you the ability to see into the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elendtheking Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I admit it's strange because Ruin can't see in the future very well accaording to a WOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferumancer Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 So first off, I think why ruin can see into the future very well is because of the atium. And second off, the future shows what changes will happen, and ruin is all about change. That may be why. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I would refrain from over-thinking this one. Allomancers burning atium, which is a more-or-less crystallized form of Ruin's Investiture, are able to peek into the spiritual realm, which just so happens to grant brief future sight and an expanded mind. I think @Ferumancer 's second explanation is probably about as good as we can hope for at the moment. Plus, didn't Leras basically suckerpunch Ruin in order to rip away the Investiture needed to create The Pits and atium to begin with? I would think that once the Investiture was separated from Ruin, the form it manifested could be determined independent from Ruin's limitations, Intent, and Influences. At least to a degree. SH spoilers: Spoiler Before Leras dies, he grants Kelsier a glimpse into the spiritual realm (granting him insight on the metallic arts and the future) that appears much more intense and detailed than the glimpse typically provided by atium. Whether this is because he's better at seeing the future than Ati or simply because he was fueling Kelsier's peek into the spiritual realm directly is unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telmond Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, hwiles said: I would refrain from over-thinking this one. Allomancers burning atium, which is a more-or-less crystallized form of Ruin's Investiture, are able to peek into the spiritual realm, which just so happens to grant brief future sight and an expanded mind. I think @Ferumancer 's second explanation is probably about as good as we can hope for at the moment. Plus, didn't Leras basically suckerpunch Ruin in order to rip away the Investiture needed to create The Pits and atium to begin with? I would think that once the Investiture was separated from Ruin, the form it manifested could be determined independent from Ruin's limitations, Intent, and Influences. At least to a degree. SH spoilers: Hide contents Before Leras dies, he grants Kelsier a glimpse into the spiritual realm (granting him insight on the metallic arts and the future) that appears much more intense and detailed than the glimpse typically provided by atium. Whether this is because he's better at seeing the future than Ati or simply because he was fueling Kelsier's peek into the spiritual realm directly is unclear. So your saying burning atium only allows you to see into the spiritual realm? That it has no other properties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Telmond said: So your saying burning atium only allows you to see into the spiritual realm? That it has no other properties? Yes. And only looking into the future, at that. Alloys of it show you different facets (e.g. Malatium only shows you the past), but spiritual realm insight is atium's primary power. When burned Allomantically, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Ferumancer said: So first off, I think why ruin can see into the future very well is because of the atium. Do you mean why he "can't see into the future very well" ? My response would be based on if you said that, so if you did mean specifically what you wrote, then I'd have to wait until you further explained your idea. Which I am curious to see either way, your sentence is intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferumancer Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 No. I meant it the way you thought. I just missed the typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Ferumancer said: No. I meant it the way you thought. I just missed the typo. Well, upon rereading your statement, it's still an interesting idea. We've been operating under the concept that the Shardic Intent is what determines their strength of future-sight, which seems to be more or less confirmed by this WoB. But if your sentence means what I think it does then it could still work, just a bit differently. If you have the time, explain your idea. It's been a while since someone suggested something a bit further out there that still made a lot of sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I've wondered if looking into the Spiritual Realm to see the future is related to what people say on Roshar about... Spoiler how predicting the future is of the Voidbringers. Maybe it's as simple as people on Roshar thinking "telling the future is witchcraft and black magic," but I've wondered if there might be some connection between this and what Atium allows Allomancers to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Andy92 said: Hide contents how predicting the future is of the Voidbringers. Maybe it's as simple as people on Roshar thinking "telling the future is witchcraft and black magic," but I've wondered if there might be some connection between this and what Atium allows Allomancers to do. Stormlight Spoilers (yours and mine) Spoiler The "of the Voidbringers" rhetoric is due to the Sunmaker and the Heirocracy. Sunmaker is the one who started the "prophecy is evil" movement; very, very recently in overall Rosharan history, so I don't think it ever really was something nefarious, but I'm curious about what parallels you are thinking of drawing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just wanted to point out that seeing years... decades... centuries into the future is a VERY different thing from seeing a few seconds into the future. If Brandon has said that Ruin isn't very good at seeing into the future (which makes sense), he was probably referring to the former. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 It makes people more effective at killing other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Reveal hidden contents The "of the Voidbringers" rhetoric is due to the Sunmaker and the Heirocracy. Sunmaker is the one who started the "prophecy is evil" movement; very, very recently in overall Rosharan history, so I don't think it ever really was something nefarious, but I'm curious about what parallels you are thinking of drawing Spoiler I gotcha, I didn't remember where the "of the Voidbringers" terminology originated from. When I first read about the Voidbringers, I remember thinking that I thought it was similar to how Atium gives you a short glimpse into the future. It made me wonder if certain Shards like Ruin and Odium were the cause of that sort of thing is all really. I never really had evidence to back it up, just me being curious if there was a connection someway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 32 minutes ago, Andy92 said: Hide contents I gotcha, I didn't remember where the "of the Voidbringers" terminology originated from. When I first read about the Voidbringers, I remember thinking that I thought it was similar to how Atium gives you a short glimpse into the future. It made me wonder if certain Shards like Ruin and Odium were the cause of that sort of thing is all really. I never really had evidence to back it up, just me being curious if there was a connection someway. All shards can see into the future as they're powerful spiritual entities. However, some are better than others at it, such as Preservation being better than Ruin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Telmond said: So your saying burning atium only allows you to see into the spiritual realm? That it has no other properties? No, but I can see now how my previous statement was misleading in that way. We haven't received a precise WoB explaining literally what is going on when someone burns atium. I believe Sanderson spoke about Elend's experience duralumining his atium and basically confirmed that he was "looking into," "partially entering," or otherwise "expanding his presence" in the spiritual realm, which then let him see and understand Preservation's ultimate plan. From this, the community has generally extrapolated that burning atium allows a person to "look into," "partially enter," or otherwise "expand their presence," in the spiritual realm, simply to a lesser magnitude than what Elend experienced. We also have it confirmed that, 1) the power granted by atium isn't and never was fully understood by anyone we've seen use it (he said this before BoM and SH came out though I believe, so this may be revised in the future), 2) atium might have a side-effect, similar in nature but distinct in function to lerasium's side-effect, and 3) WoB for clarity: Quote As a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy. The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves The simplest answer to your original question is that the power received by burning a God metal doesn't have to be related to the Intent of the Shard it came from. This is pretty well confirmed. I, like you, find this to be a relatively unsatisfying answer, however, getting a more rigorous canonical explanation might be unlikely before Sanderson has finalized when, where, how, and which, shards are going to interact with Scadrial, Scadrians, and Ruin/Preservation/Harmony. (though Lost Metal might also shed some light on your inquiry) In the meantime, I think I'm going to adopt @Ferumancer 's explanations. They're simple elegance makes them, IMO, decent candidates to eventually be, if not actively acknowledge as canon, then at least generally accepted. I'm with @The One Who Connects , if you have some further musings on atium and Ruin I'd be interested in giving them a look. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telmond Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, hwiles said: No, but I can see now how my previous statement was misleading in that way. We haven't received a precise WoB explaining literally what is going on when someone burns atium. I believe Sanderson spoke about Elend's experience duralumining his atium and basically confirmed that he was "looking into," "partially entering," or otherwise "expanding his presence" in the spiritual realm, which then let him see and understand Preservation's ultimate plan. From this, the community has generally extrapolated that burning atium allows a person to "look into," "partially enter," or otherwise "expand their presence," in the spiritual realm, simply to a lesser magnitude than what Elend experienced. We also have it confirmed that, 1) the power granted by atium isn't and never was fully understood by anyone we've seen use it (he said this before BoM and SH came out though I believe, so this may be revised in the future), 2) atium might have a side-effect, similar in nature but distinct in function to lerasium's side-effect, and 3) WoB for clarity: The simplest answer to your original question is that the power received by burning a God metal doesn't have to be related to the Intent of the Shard it came from. This is pretty well confirmed. I, like you, find this to be a relatively unsatisfying answer, however, getting a more rigorous canonical explanation might be unlikely before Sanderson has finalized when, where, how, and which, shards are going to interact with Scadrial, Scadrians, and Ruin/Preservation/Harmony. (though Lost Metal might also shed some light on your inquiry) In the meantime, I think I'm going to adopt @Ferumancer 's explanations. They're simple elegance makes them, IMO, decent candidates to eventually be, if not actively acknowledge as canon, then at least generally accepted. I'm with @The One Who Connects , if you have some further musings on atium and Ruin I'd be interested in giving them a look. Thx a lot that's a perfect answer. Have an upvote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan_rd Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Reveal hidden contents The "of the Voidbringers" rhetoric is due to the Sunmaker and the Heirocracy. Sunmaker is the one who started the "prophecy is evil" movement; very, very recently in overall Rosharan history, so I don't think it ever really was something nefarious, but I'm curious about what parallels you are thinking of drawing I kind of thought it was a reference to the actual Voidbringers and the Listeners ability to predict the Highstorm from their rhythms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferumancer Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 So, I think I have the time. My idea is that perhaps all of the shards started off as very similar (other than intent), but because of certain things (preservation making people/allomantic powers, for example) made them worse at certain things. This would explain why ruin does not have great future sight, and Spoiler Preservation isn't very human in secret history. I don't have more examples, but i like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 18 hours ago, Sheridan_rd said: Spoiler I kind of thought it was a reference to the actual Voidbringers and the Listeners ability to predict the Highstorm from their rhythms Stormlight Spoilers Spoiler That very well may be a connection to be made, but the Vorin Church's (the ones disparaging future-sight) reasons are rooted in the proclamation by the Sunmaker at the end of the War of Loss. As for your new idea Ferumancer, it isn't where I thought you were going but I do like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan_rd Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Reveal hidden contents That very well may be a connection to be made, but the Vorin Church's (the ones disparaging future-sight) reasons are rooted in the proclamation by the Sunmaker at the end of the War of Loss. As for your new idea Ferumancer, it isn't where I thought you were going but I do like the idea. Yeah, I haven't had the privilege of attending a book signing and discuss my theories with the source. I just read the books and make educated guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Sheridan_rd said: I just read the books and make educated guess You should check the wiki. It's nowhere near up to date on some things, but it's still got some tidbits most of us don't remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardplateJoe III Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 I am of the opinion that a Shard's manifestation of investiture cannot do anything that the shard itself is incapable of. Not opposed to do, like how the intent of Preservation made it difficult for him to kill, as we seen allomancers killing people a lot. Basically, if a Shard cannot do something well because of an issue not directly relating to intent, then the magic that that shard is responsible for cannot do that very same thing. At least as well as another format of magic. But the ultimate reason that future sight was of the voidbringers was in part to the Heirocracy, but mostly because if someone were to see into the future, it probably was not of Honor, it would have to have been either of Cultivation or Odium. And seeing as how the world seems to have forgotten about Cultivation, I am inclined to believe that the world had associated future sight with the voidbringers. In the case of atium, it is not a matter of the atium itself granting the future sight, because if I am right, it had to have been from Preservation. Instead, anyone who is burning atium is taking Ruin's essence, and using that to fuel Preservation's magic. Because allomancy is of Preservation, that is why people can see into the future with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 I think the 'see a second or two into the future' effect is what an Allomancer burning atium "normally" gets, but isn't the fundamental limit of what that Allomantic power can do. Elend's duralumin-atium burn does suggest you can get significantly more out of it under the right circumstances. And I think there's a WOB about atium helping to place Hemalurgic spikes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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