The mechanics of Investiture causing longer post-death transition time (aka "Investiture is sticky")

[Oversleep]

UPDATE: Also, tl;dr: "Investiture is sticky" - Shards are prone to getting tied to places, Cognitive Shadows and entities are hard to move offworld etc.

So, first off: You probably remember that Mistborn are not Invested when not burning metals. That's no longer true. They're as Invested as Knights Radiant (WoB):

Quote

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the ability to become invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either (He cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought) so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them (like soulcasting or forgery) is harder.

Blightsong

Would they be harder (kek) with more Stormlight or Metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing shard plate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yea. The problem is like, invested is the wrong term for that, their spirit web is connected in different ways. (I deem this "Spirit Web Magical Connectivity Diversity, or SWMCD".

My theory is that it's not specifically Investiture keeping you in Cognitive Realm, but Connections that come out of that Investiture keep you like a chain to the anchor. In that case, the Connections probably go to Shards (like Allomancers)... or other things? Gonna discuss it below. Anyway, we know some Connections break the moment you die - vide Shardblades dropping - but some are kept (like Kelsier's Connection to Preservation as he was a Mistborn). And that are the anchors that take longer to break and result in longer transition time to Beyond.

Now I'm gonna discuss various types of Investment and how would those act upon death:

• Allomancers: Connection to Preservation, pretty straightforward.
• Feruchemists: No idea as we don't know how Feruchemy works Realmatically. Maybe Connection to both Preservation and Ruin? But wouldn't it mean longer transtion time as you are anchored to two Shards?
• Hemalurgists: It doesn't include Ruin's Investiture, so probably Connections to the Shards that the stolen abilities are of.
• Surgebinders are weird: Connection to the spren is broken at the time of death - vide dropping Shardblades - but we don't know how it works with living spren
• Awakeners: having a lot of Breath would tie you to Endowment but on the other hand there is (I'm not sure) a WoB stating that Breaths are not part of the soul?
• Selish people: Elantrians do have Connection to the Dor (as it flows through them all the time) but there's that thing with stronger Connections to the land... And now, for really weird - Cognitive Realm on Sel is packed full of Investiture they're Connected to.
  What if... what if Invested people on Sel don't go to the Beyond at all?! And just hang on in the Dor?

Edited February 1, 2017 by Oversleep

[Blightsong he/him]

12 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

So, first off: You probably remember that Mistborn are not Invested when not burning metals. That's no longer true. They're as Invested as Knights Radiant (WoB):

My theory is that it's not specifically Investiture keeping you in Cognitive Realm, but Connections that come out of that Investiture keep you like a chain to the anchor. In that case, the Connections probably go to Shards (like Allomancers)... or other things? Gonna discuss it below. Anyway, we know some Connections break the moment you die - vide Shardblades dropping - but some are kept (like Kelsier's Connection to Preservation as he was a Mistborn). And that are the anchors that take longer to break and result in longer transition time to Beyond.

Now I'm gonna discuss various types of Investment and how would those act upon death:

• Allomancers: Connection to Preservation, pretty straightforward.
• Feruchemists: No idea as we don't know how Feruchemy works Realmatically. Maybe Connection to both Preservation and Ruin? But wouldn't it mean longer transtion time as you are anchored to two Shards?
• Hemalurgists: It doesn't include Ruin's Investiture, so probably Connections to the Shards that the stolen abilities are of.
• Surgebinders are weird: Connection to the spren is broken at the time of death - vide dropping Shardblades - but we don't know how it works with living spren
• Awakeners: having a lot of Breath would tie you to Endowment but on the other hand there is (I'm not sure) a WoB stating that Breaths are not part of the soul?
• Selish people: Elantrians do have Connection to the Dor (as it flows through them all the time) but there's that thing with stronger Connections to the land... And now, for really weird - Cognitive Realm on Sel is packed full of Investiture they're Connected to.
  What if... what if Invested people on Sel don't go to the Beyond at all?! And just hang on in the Dor?

Nice theories. This was a WoB I was very interested in after that particular signing. An interesting example where I think these mechanics take place are the Heralds, and I'm exited to see how their Connections work.

[Nashan’Elin he/him]

Do we know if a savant would stay longer than, say, a Misting? Because it could be related to the "channels" that Investiture wears in a person's soul over time and use. 

[nervousnerd he/him]

I assume so.. It seemed to me like the more powerful you were, the longer you can easily resist the Beyond. This may be because using more power created more connection (if I understand this theory correctly).

[Oversleep]

9 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said:

Do we know if a savant would stay longer than, say, a Misting? Because it could be related to the "channels" that Investiture wears in a person's soul over time and use. 

Unfortunately we don't know much Realmatically about savants :< I think they neither get more Investiture nor they're more Connected to Preservation - by virtue of deepened cracks they are able to use the Investiture more efficiently...?

[Spoolofwhool]

This doesn't sound too ground-breaking. Hasn't this been around already by virtue of the knowledge they have a greater amount of innate investiture which is why they last longer after death?

2 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Unfortunately we don't know much Realmatically about savants :< I think they neither get more Investiture nor they're more Connected to Preservation - by virtue of deepened cracks they are able to use the Investiture more efficiently...?

My opinion is that when investiture is in a vessel, it changes the vessel to hold it more effectively. This is the basis for both savantism and ascension, with the latter being an extreme example of the former. In both cases, the investitures changes the body so it is more receptive to the investiture, which has the benefit of improving the effects the investiture has on the body. In the case of ascension the amount of investiture essentially cannot be contained at all by the physical vessel, so it removes it while maintaining the cognitive and spiritual aspects. 

 

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This doesn't sound too ground-breaking.

You're right.

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Hasn't this been around already by virtue of the knowledge they have a greater amount of innate investiture which is why they last longer after death?

Yeah, but I explain why more Investiture equals more time post-death. Nothing shocking but it fits nicely.

[skaa he/him]

3 hours ago, Oversleep said:

• [...]What if... what if Invested people on Sel don't go to the Beyond at all?! And just hang on in the Dor?

It would be interesting to see how dead Elantrians experience the violent environment of the Selish Cognitive Realm, since we know that living Elantrians get ripped apart by the Dor when they travel there.

[Blightsong he/him]

5 hours ago, Oversleep said:

You're right.

Yeah, but I explain why more Investiture equals more time post-death. Nothing shocking but it fits nicely.

 

5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This doesn't sound too ground-breaking. Hasn't this been around already by virtue of the knowledge they have a greater amount of innate investiture which is why they last longer after death?

My opinion is that when investiture is in a vessel, it changes the vessel to hold it more effectively. This is the basis for both savantism and ascension, with the latter being an extreme example of the former. In both cases, the investitures changes the body so it is more receptive to the investiture, which has the benefit of improving the effects the investiture has on the body. In the case of ascension the amount of investiture essentially cannot be contained at all by the physical vessel, so it removes it while maintaining the cognitive and spiritual aspects. 

 

I think you guys are missing the point of part of the WoB. He is distinguishing that the connections aren't investiture.

[Yata he/him]

10 hours ago, Blightsong said:

 

I think you guys are missing the point of part of the WoB. He is distinguishing that the connections aren't investiture.

Actually Connections are made of Investiture, but you have right...It's not a meaningful amount of it. Every being crafts new connections in his life.

To be honest I think Kaladin without stormlight in him is more invested than TLR without burning metal or tapping metalmind (yes this would kill him...but it's an example) this would change when TLR starts to use his powers.

A Radiant Knight is actually High Invested, because He has a Splinter worth of Investiture fused with his Soul (a situation a bit similar to people with Breath). An Allomancer has just a soul deformed by Investiture. Probably a Koloss/Kandra is still more Invested than an Allomancer (without metals) thanks to the bit of extra Soul alone.

16 hours ago, Oversleep said:

• Surgebinders are weird: Connection to the spren is broken at the time of death - vide dropping Shardblades - but we don't know how it works with living spren

I think the Bond to a Living Spren is broken too. You may notice some difference between the F-Gold and Stormlight's Healing. In the first case a Ferring could heal almost every kind of damage (also tap his metalmind after death to restore himself...with enough charge) while a Radiant may be killed with a Head crushing blow. I think this happen because both of them "die" with certain kind of damage, but the Radiant at the moment of death, lose his bond and for extention his Surgebinding...Therefore he cannot use the Stormlight to heal the damage, while a Ferring has not this kind of problem.

PS: Notice that if I have right, a Radiant who recive a fatal wound but He is restored by some other kind of Healing (Regrowth,ecc..) may need to re-bond his Spren. In a Desolation a fallen Radiant also if recovered, would be quite useless for the actual battle.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Yata

[Blightsong he/him]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually Connections are made of Investiture, but you have right...It's not a meaningful amount of it. Every being craft new connections in his life.

Yeah, I could've phrased that better. Connectionsare made of investiture, but in the same way that all matter is supposedly investiture in the Cosmere.

[+Extesian he/him]

16 hours ago, Blightsong said:

 

I think you guys are missing the point of part of the WoB. He is distinguishing that the connections aren't investiture.

Yeah my understanding is something like this - investiture = matter = energy, a level of connection is required to tap into a specific Shard's power, once you have that connection through genetics/bonding (and the gap in your spirit Web to allow it) you can access the Shard's power. That gives you a certain level of innate investiture, more than the average jane doe. But what really affects sticking around after body-death is how much you channel. Each time you use the Shard's investiture it is channeled through the gap in your spirit Web, and each time you do that the gap widens and further cements the connection you have to that Shard. It's circular. Well, more like an upwards spiral. It is then that connection, cemented by the repeated channeling of a specific Shard's investiture, that anchors your spirit Web to that Shard and allows you to stick around longer.

Hope that makes sense. Royal Rumble drinking game hangover has damaged my spirit web somewhat.

[Blightsong he/him]

37 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Yeah my understanding is something like this - investiture = matter = energy, a level of connection is required to tap into a specific Shard's power, once you have that connection through genetics/bonding (and the gap in your spirit Web to allow it) you can access the Shard's power. That gives you a certain level of innate investiture, more than the average jane doe. But what really affects sticking around after body-death is how much you channel. Each time you use the Shard's investiture it is channeled through the gap in your spirit Web, and each time you do that the gap widens and further cements the connection you have to that Shard. It's circular. Well, more like an upwards spiral. It is then that connection, cemented by the repeated channeling of a specific Shard's investiture, that anchors your spirit Web to that Shard and allows you to stick around longer.

Hope that makes sense. Royal Rumble drinking game hangover has damaged my spirit web somewhat.

You have some correct ideas, but are applying the mechanics of some magic systems to all magic systems.

 

We know via the above WoB that not all magic systems increase your level of innate investiture. My idea of how innate investiture works is that it increases the power of already present connections. For example, we know that savantism increases a person's level of investiture, and that it also makes someone more powerful with that magic. Another example is the Heightenings. By holding more breaths it strengthens already existing connections, increasing hearing and sight among other things. In video game terms, innate investiture bestows passive abilities, while connections (like the ones gained from Lerasium) bestow active abilities.

 

I think you are not putting enough stock in how much the Connections themselves affect the post death transitional period. When I spoke to Brandon in the above WoB he seemed adamant that the connections, and not just the innate investiture that inhabited them, were most of the reason why mistborn stay around longer than normal people.

 

I also want to point out that not all magic systems/magical connections require a crack in the spirit web like in Allomancy and Surgebinding.

[Oversleep]

35 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

For example, we know that savantism increases a person's level of investiture

we do?

35 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

In video game terms, innate investiture bestows passive abilities, while connections (like the ones gained from Lerasium) bestow active abilities.

Nah. Lerasiumborns are stronger Allomancers because lerasium adds on more Preservation's Investiture. By extension it strenghtens their Connection to Preservation.

My theory is that Innate Investiture is correlated and proportional to the respectful Connections. In that model the Innate Investiture of Mistborns and their Connections are functionally indistinguishable in the context of post-death transition.

[+Extesian he/him]

56 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

 

I think you are not putting enough stock in how much the Connections themselves affect the post death transitional period. When I spoke to Brandon in the above WoB he seemed adamant that the connections, and not just the innate investiture that inhabited them, were most of the reason why mistborn stay around longer than normal people.

It would explain why Hoid seems far more interested in gaining connection to every Shard rather than just beckoning super-invested. The number of connections he has is probably more what makes him almost unkillable than his inate investiture and the powers he can use. (And quite right, I was thinking very Scadrial/Roshar-centric).

[Blightsong he/him]

15 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

we do?

Yup, WoB that Investiture is permeating the soul

18 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Nah. Lerasiumborns are stronger Allomancers because lerasium adds on more Preservation's Investiture. By extension it strenghtens their Connection to Preservation.

My theory is that Innate Investiture is correlated and proportional to the respectful Connections. In that model the Innate Investiture of Mistborns and their Connections are functionally indistinguishable in the context of post-death transition.

But this contradicts part of the conversation that ended in the WoB you presented above. Brandon states "The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that.". In conclusion, mistborn are not more invested until they actively use metals, but the use of these metals over time does leave a kind of investiture residue that forms innate investiture. This is why mistings are more specialized with their power, innate investiture seems to use investiture more precisely while a powerful connection only affects the brute strength of the power you can channel. If connection and innate investiture were the same thing then full lerasium mistborn would have no trouble floating on a coin.

[Blightsong he/him]

Double post because it won't let me edit.

 

I think you misinterpreted the WoB. Brandon was saying that Mistborn are as invested as Knights Radiant, but because Knights Radiant aren't particularly invested as well.

[Oversleep]

52 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Yup, WoB that Investiture is permeating the soul

I hesitate to take that WoB to confirm that savantism does increase the amount of Innate Investiture. Because Brandon on many occassions had said that savantism is about wider cracks in the Spiritweb which allow more power to flow in.
Here's one of those WoBs. It's implications are that "stronger Mistborns are "quantitative difference" while savants are "qualitative difference". And Brandon even says that "Wax can do more with less". "

The thing with with permeating the soul is that "they[the powers] are changing his soul, and so the powers are morphing and changing".

52 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

But this contradicts part of the conversation that ended in the WoB you presented above. Brandon states "The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that.". In conclusion, mistborn are not more invested until they actively use metals, but the use of these metals over time does leave a kind of investiture residue that forms innate investiture. This is why mistings are more specialized with their power, innate investiture seems to use investiture more precisely while a powerful connection only affects the brute strength of the power you can channel.

I assume you mean this WoB? The thing is, few sentences later he goes back on it:

Quote

so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web.

Knight Radiant have a Splinter attached to their soul, so it pretty much confirms what I'm saying.

52 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

If connection and innate investiture were the same thing

I meant that those pieces of Innate Investiture have Connections tied to them - so one thing means the other; and in the scenario we're discussing (you died) they're pretty much interchangeable since we're only considering how they affect transition time.

52 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

then full lerasium mistborn would have no trouble floating on a coin.

And who says they would have trouble with that (BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by floating on the coin. I assume you mean some specific thing with Steelpushing)? We've seen what, Zane do it? With Allomantic steel spike? Wax, a savant with like 20+ years of experience with one power only? Vin, who's some kind of space ninja?

BTW, please let's move the discussion of savants somewhere else. Here?

EDIT: ALSO, update to the main theory:
"Investiture is sticky" - Shards are prone to getting tied to places, Cognitive Shadows and entities are hard to move offworld etc.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Oversleep

[Blightsong he/him]

4 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

 

 

• BLIGHTSONG

  Would it be harder to soulcast a Knight Radiant?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Yes.

  BLIGHTSONG

  Would it be harder to soulcast a mistborn?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Yes, investiture disrupts investiture. It's harder for her to even soulcast a regular person than, say, a rock.

  BLIGHTSONG

  Is a Mistborn invested?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no, you're right on that. (Here he clarifies that Mistborn are not particularly invested when not burning metals)

  TAGS

  Knights Radiant, soulcasting ,  Mistborn ,  investiture

• 27

  BLIGHTSONG

  So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the ability to become invested? (I followed up, being interested in how this related the death and the beyond)

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial (confirmation that using the magic over time actually invests Mistborn). Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either (He cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought) so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else (he is explaining that Knights Radiant are also not particularly invested), but there is the spirit web (here he further expands on the fact that it is the spirit web and connections that are the main factor in a Mistborn and Knight Radiant staying around longer in the cognitive realm). Investing is the wrong term (even further confirmation that these magic users are not particularly invested), but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

  BLIGHTSONG

  Would they be harder with more Stormlight or Metals burning? (Me trying to clarify on if actually using investiture would increase how long you stayed around)

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing shard plate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yea (I think he misinterpreted what I was trying to say as I wasn't very clear) The problem is like, invested is the wrong term for that, their spirit web is connected in different ways (further confirmation). (I deem this "Spirit Web Magical Connectivity Diversity, or SWMCD) (me being a dork).

  TAGS

  Kelsier ,  investiture ,  Spiritual Realm

@Oversleep I'm just going to do a breakdown of the WoB, I think that would get my point across better than snippets out of context. My new comments will be emboldened and in parentheses.

 

(Sorry for bad formatting, the mobile UI is being very difficult)

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 1/30/2017 at 4:10 PM, Oversleep said:

Awakeners: having a lot of Breath would tie you to Endowment but on the other hand there is (I'm not sure) a WoB stating that Breaths are not part of the soul?

Having more breath on you when you die increases the pseudo-sentience of a Lifeless made from you. The example being Clod of course, which is why I believe it was in the Annotations, but I'll have to check tomorrow
Edit: the point being that breath does affect you in some way, so I do see it as holding you back from the Beyond

Edited February 1, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Actually, I don't think you can say that "the innate investiture that lets you use magic" and "connection" are exactly the same thing (they are closely related). They are distinct spiritual attributes, as evidenced by the fact that they are stored in distinct feruchemical metals (duraluminum for connection, nicrosil for innate investiture). If you are an allomancer, you have both a connection to preservation and a bit of your spirit coded to allow you to use allomancy (innate investiture).

As for which one keeps you around as a cognitive shadow after you die... Its quite possible that you are right about that being connection, and not innate investiture.

Which has some interesting implications. If it is connection, and not innate investiture... A strong enough connection to something other than a shard should also let your cognitive shadow linger.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Drake Marshall

[Oversleep]

7 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

Actually, I don't think you can say that "the innate investiture that lets you use magic" and "connection" are exactly the same thing (they are closely related).

Let me state it again: I am not saying they are the same thing. I'm saying that in the context we're discussing there is no functional difference...
It's like we are talking about rumoured ban on having more than four dogs in your house but the actual ban (which we do not know) is on having more than four pets and dogs and cats are always sold together in pairs (you cannot buy a dog without buying a cat and vice versa). In that scenario dog is essentially the same thing as a cat. That's what I'm saying.

@Blightsong I interpret those WoBs differently but I'll write about it later.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Oversleep