stickstickstick Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 This theory is that the phrase 'stones unhallowed' has more to do with the worldbuilding in Roshar than thought. There are many lines, moments and opinions in Stormlight that suggest there is a deep (time lost) ideology directing the Shin to not walk on Stones unhallowed. I can go through the book if necessary, though I'm sure the members here are familiar with them anyway. My theory here is that the stones that are 'hallowed' are a way for Odium to connect to individuals on Roshar, in much the same way that Ruin used spikes to impersonate/talk-to various mistborn ppls and used the non-metal prophesies to manipulate the world. This theory is that the Shin live on stones 'unhallowed' (and that this is an actual ancient truth), but Szeth as truthless was given a 'hallowed' stone and commanded to obey the holder. I believe this is a similar corruption (as Ruin) by Odium. This is what allows Odium into his head aka the screams in the darkness. we have a WoB that the screams are real (to him at least). Since he died, Szeth hasn't heard the screams (please check me on this, but make sure he wasn't on stone at the time). He believes it's because he died, but maybe it's because he gave up the stone. A lot of this is hidden in the history of Roshar and I believe Brandon will unveil it in coming pieces and tie it into the desolations in the same way as Mistborn. If you've read 'Mistborn the secret history; you'll have a good idea of what I'm thinking. I'll add one last thing here. The Shin have the honourblades. If kept anywhere, shouldn't the cosmic design arrange them to be held where Ati can't see them? (yes I know what I did there). The Stormfather fades in the Shin land, stones are unhallowed and they have the honourblades? Coincidence? Or design? (My theory is design from when the Heralds were sane). 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erandeni he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 Cool theory, Shin also belive that after their death, their souls go to the stone, so I belive that all that "walk on stones is profane" has more to do with the fact that some voidbringer as thunderclast seems to born from stones, as we see in Dalinar´s visions. I agree with you about the Shin having the honorblades is not a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickstickstick Posted January 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) Possibly, but then what is the distinction between hallowed and unhallowed stones? In your idea the Thunderclast can only animate hallowed stones? (not trying to be offensive, just fleshing this out). Edit: Also where did you get that Shin belief info? is the WoB? Edited January 22, 2017 by stickstickstick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickstickstick Posted January 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 Thanks Oversleep, Good news is it's a semi-solid theory. Bad news is I'm a year too late. Oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erandeni he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 1 hour ago, stickstickstick said: Possibly, but then what is the distinction between hallowed and unhallowed stones? In your idea the Thunderclast can only animate hallowed stones? (not trying to be offensive, just fleshing this out). Edit: Also where did you get that Shin belief info? is the WoB? I belive that the only unhallowed stone is Urithiru´s, which i presume has some kind of potection against voidbringers. So yes, I think the thunderclast can only animate hallowed stones. Szeth says several times that his soul is going to get trapped in the stone when he´ll died, the coppermind´s Shin page says that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corax Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 My understanding was that the natural stone of Roshar is considered sacred or 'hallowed.' To walk on it would be profane, as would cutting into it for mining, etc. We are shown this in Rysn's interlude; they want only soulcast metal. Thus, "stones unhallowed," such as those of Urithiru, are likely soulcast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, stickstickstick said: Szeth as Truthless was given a 'hallowed' stone and commanded to obey the holder. I believe this is a similar corruption (as Ruin) by Odium. This is what allows Odium into his head aka the screams in the darkness. we have a WoB that the screams are real (to him at least). Since he died, Szeth hasn't heard the screams (please check me on this) I'll add one last thing here. The Shin have the Honorblades. 1. The problem with his Oathstone being "corrupted" and why he can hear the screams is that Taravangian is the one who has it. Szeth is the better half of the Rosharan super-continent away in Azir or the Plains, most of the time. The screams being in his head (real or not) suggests something to do with the Cognitive Realm, where distance matters. It's a spiritual thing actually, refer to the WoB in Point 2. Additionally, per the Shinovar page on the Coppermind, any Shin who picks up a weapon is required to be bound to an Oathstone and live life as a warrior, not just the Truthless 2. Secondly, we have a WoB (may be a tad older/Nope, April of '16) that anyone who did the things he did would have a similar effect, which pulls even further away from the Oathstone and Odium. Now that I've read the WoB, the plot thickens again: "What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic." This statement messes with any and all interpretations about the origin of his screams. The lack of screams after his death.. I think that is a true statement. At least, I don't remember anything to the contrary thus far. Lastly, the Shin having the Honorblades. Quoth Brandon, "historically, they kept all of them." We have used this to assume that modern day Shinovar was built around/atop of the Circle of Blades in the Prologue. Given that it was a wasteland that didn't seem to stop any Shard: Dustbringers seemed to function just fine despite the modern "no Spren" issues, Kalak notes where Thunderclasts spawned from the ground nearby, etc.., I don't know about the area being safe from Odium's eyes in that way. Edited January 22, 2017 by The One Who Connects Off mobile, time to link to WoB's 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmann966 he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 Don't we have references that Shinovar is not originally from Roshar? That the people, animals, and land itself is transplanted onto the Rosharan continent? If so, it lends credence to the "modern day Shinovar was built around/atop of the Circle of Blades in the Prologue." as nine honorblades given form and abandoned together could, in theory, cause a perpendicularity where a foreign land and people could come through to Roshar. At the same time, if all of Shinovar is transplanted from elsewhere, their "stone" would be fundamentally different from the rest of Roshar, and indeed could be considered the difference of the "hallowed ground" thought. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 32 minutes ago, Zmann966 said: At the same time, if all of Shinovar is transplanted from elsewhere, their "stone" would be fundamentally different from the rest of Roshar, and indeed could be considered the difference of the "hallowed ground" thought. The only problem with this is brought up in the first post of the topic Oversleep linked. Quote Chapter 6, Jasnah: Quote And then, there are storeis - ones I dare to believe - claiming that Urithiru was holy and protected from the Voidbringers. I-10, Szeth (in Urithiru): Quote The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy. I'm not going to dispute your idea about Honorblades forming a perpendicularity, because I do not know if having a literal pool is a Shard only restriction or a natural effect. Lastly, I want people's opinions on this response Quote This is a yes-no-RAFO question. Did Shinovar originate on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Mhm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmann966 he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 See that's what I wasn't sure, if we had a WoB on Shinovar's origins. But Szeth's thoughts on Urithiru makes it far less of an actual difference in the stones, but a more cultural/religious one. There's no confirmation either way, but it makes it seem far less of an Odium influence or actual difference in the stone and just a cultural Shin thing. As for the perpendicularity, we know they don't have to form pools, and that the shardpools is simply how we saw them in Mistborn/Elantris. But that Honor's is definitely not a pool (and it moves!) Elsecaller's perpendicularities are another example of a non-pool opening. Brandon has commented that all it takes is a large amount of investiture to create one, so it's possible that honorblades could form one, (links back to a discussion in another topic I had about how the Heralds move between Damnation and Roshar during the Desolations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Zmann966 said: Elsecaller's perpendicularities are another example of a non-pool opening. This is why I wasn't sure if it was a Shardic rule rather than an underlying one. It may have to do with how much Investiture there is that it has to "pool up" for the Shards, but not for your average worldhopper. 8 minutes ago, Zmann966 said: As for the perpendicularity, we know they don't have to form pools, and that the shardpools is simply how we saw them in Mistborn/Elantris. But that Honor's is definitely not a pool (and it moves!) I'll admit to having forgotten about Honor being the odd one out so far, point challenger All I know is that Ruin, Preservation, Devotion and probably Dominion have a liquid pool. Brandon has been unhelpful when asked about Endowment's Shardpool. And the recent thing with Honor. But it does make me wonder what is different about Honor's mobile perpendicularity, especially since there is a proper Pool in the Horneater peaks, which Hoid used at some point. (Which I'm now assuming belongs to Cultivation, but that's another story...) That's 4 physical Pools, 1 unknown, a RAFO, and a mobile Perpendicularity that isn't a pool. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmann966 he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 55 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: This is why I wasn't sure if it was a Shardic rule rather than an underlying one. It may have to do with how much Investiture there is that it has to "pool up" for the Shards, but not for your average worldhopper. I'll admit to having forgotten about Honor being the odd one out so far, point challenger All I know is that Ruin, Preservation, Devotion and probably Dominion have a liquid pool. Brandon has been unhelpful when asked about Endowment's Shardpool. And the recent thing with Honor. But it does make me wonder what is different about Honor's mobile perpendicularity, especially since there is a proper Pool in the Horneater peaks, which Hoid used at some point. (Which I'm now assuming belongs to Cultivation, but that's another story...) That's 4 physical Pools, 1 unknown, a RAFO, and a mobile Perpendicularity that isn't a pool. Hey now! Ati's wasn't completely confirmed as a pool. We just know that his perpendicularity existed beneath the pits and—at the time we didn't have the name "perpendicularity" so just called everything a "shardpool"—Brandon used the terminology too for lack of a better term. We also knew the Shards exist as solids, liquids, and gases, so it stands to reason that every shard would have a "pool" (and a metal and a smoke/fog) but whether or not their perpendicularities are always in liquid form... /shrug RAFO. Remember that Drominad has a pool too, without the (current) presence of a Shard. So even going the other direction in logic, it doesn't always hold true. I think Brandon has come out recently simply stating that he didn't have good enough comprehension over perpendicularities and how everything on that level functioned at the time he wrote Elantris/Mistborn, so shardpools just ended up being the form they took. It'd be another good question to have him clarify in a future Q&A. For now we just have to reference the chat from the Chicago signing about perpendicularities where he goes into vague descriptions of Honor's and the Elsecaller's and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) There's a WoB where someone asked if Szeth was bounded to the Oathstone (master) with magic/force or just with his honor, and Brandon responded with RAFO. So it's possible that the Oathstone is causing Szeth to be controlled by some force within the Cosmere. I've noticed a theme throughout Brandon's Cosmere books that he likes to explore the idea of freedom of choice. In Mistborn, Ruin had the ability to talk to anyone pierced with metal, but his hold wasn't necessarily strong enough to take away freedom of choice. (There are some exceptions with characters such as Koloss.) Szeth might be a character that is being somewhat controlled by Odium, but his confrontations with Kaladin in WoR make him realize that he still has the ability to choose not to kill. I think Bradon wants the characters in his books to be tempted by external forces without necessarily being strictly controlled. The latter abdicates responsibility from those who do wrong because you could write it off as "I only did it because Odium made me do it." Edited January 22, 2017 by Andy92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Zmann966 said: Hey now! Ati's wasn't completely confirmed as a pool. Oh no? Quote Pools of metallic liquid are said to exist below the Pits of Hathsin and this is the liquid form of Ruin's power. Before the days of the Final Empire, these pools were a black lake with a metallic sheen, located high in the Terris mountains, close to the Well of Ascension.[5][6] [6] is a dead link leading to TWG. [5] however, takes us to Final Empire Chapter 33. The epigraph of which is as follows: Quote We are close now. Oddly, this high in the mountains, we seem to finally be free from the oppressive touch of the Deepness. It has been quite a while since I knew what that was like. The lake that Fedik discovered is below us now - I can see it from the ledge. It looks even more eerie from up here, with its glassy - almost metallic - sheen. I almost wish I had let him take a sample of its waters. Perhaps his interest was what angered the mist creature that follows us. Perhaps...that was why it decided to attack him, stabbing him with its invisible knife. Strangely, the attack comforted me. At least I know that since another has seen it. That means I'm not mad. Edit; as for Drominad having a non-shard pool, I decided to change my tune to it becomes a "pool" once it passes a certain threshold of Investiture lying around. But yes, the logic of perpendicularities doesn't really work within set rules.. sigh Edited January 22, 2017 by The One Who Connects random h at the top of the post, also text size 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: The lack of screams after his death.. I think that is a true statement. At least, I don't remember anything to the contrary thus far. Actually... When Nalan offers him death if this is what he wishes, Szeth closes eyes and says something like "screams waited for him in the darkness. Screams of those who he killed." (I'm retranslating it back to English, so it's not verbatim) And... Spoiler Edgedancer spoilers Spoiler He does mention screams in the shadows when he talks with Lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 Personally I think Szeth's oathstone was just a regular stone to symbolizes his master since some of what Nale says at the end implies that Szeth stayed on his path under his own volition, and that the choice to break his oath as Truthless was within his power. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy Savant he/him Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Don't Rosharans refer to the layers of crem build up as stone? And wasn't there a WoB where he stated that under everything on Roshar (excluding Shinovar because it is pretty much cremless) there are real "continents" and what not? What if Voidspren need the invested Crem to give rise to Thunderclasts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, Itchy Savant said: Don't Rosharans refer to the layers of crem build up as stone? I haven't seen a specific reference, but that doesn't mean much. They've called dirt "earth" so calling crem "stone" wouldn't surprise me. Brandon has definitely referred to it as stone though. Quote Roshar had to grow up--I had to find a mechanism by which stone was deposited by rain, because I felt that the constant weathering over that long of a time would leave no continents. So the crem was my kind of scientific-with-one-foot-in-magic hack on keeping the continent. 22 minutes ago, Itchy Savant said: And wasn't there a WoB where he stated that under everything on Roshar (excluding Shinovar because it is pretty much cremless) there are real "continents" and what not? Do you literally mean underneath? Either way, I haven't found anything like that so far, but I'm by no means good at searching for WoB's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy Savant he/him Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) I'm no good at finding them either, but I thought I remember seeing one about how under all the crem Roshar was a more of a normal planet. I am at work right now so I can't search but i will look when i get home. Regardless I am going to stick to the theory that Voidspren can only bond with crem, because it is invested (or closely tied to investiture). Perhaps something similar to Sel? Where investiture is causing the land to gain some sentience. just enough of a sentience to form a bond perhaps? Sorry for the crazy theory Will try and back it up later with more proof Edited January 23, 2017 by Itchy Savant typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Goradel Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) On 1/22/2017 at 4:25 AM, stickstickstick said: This theory is that the Shin live on stones 'unhallowed' I don't think they live on stones at all. The ecology of shinovar is very different than anywhere else on roshar. I think their desire for soulcast metal is economical more than it is theological. Shinovar just doesn't have the same ore and mineral deposits (and rocks at all) as the rest of the world. Sorry to change the subject from the more cosmere-y explanations bouncing around, I just think it's simpler than that. Edited January 23, 2017 by Capt. Goradel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaconis Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Itchy Savant said: Don't Rosharans refer to the layers of crem build up as stone? And wasn't there a WoB where he stated that under everything on Roshar (excluding Shinovar because it is pretty much cremless) there are real "continents" and what not? What if Voidspren need the invested Crem to give rise to Thunderclasts? I was going to come in and suggest this very thing. Perhaps under the "stone" the entire planet is like Shinovar. Over thousands and thousands of years, highstorms deposited enough crem to cover all of it except where the storms are at their weakest, i.e. Shinovar. Urithiru, built in mountains high above the storms, never saw any crem, and is therefore the stone in its "natural" continent form. This may even help the op theory, given that we have an epigraph stating that Urithiru had to be built "close to Honor." Close to honor and/or far from Odium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy Savant he/him Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yeah and like I said earlier I am pretty sure there is a WoB somewhere that states that Roshar is like Shinovar all over, Its just been sculpted and shaped by the high storm crem deposits throughout the years. The more i think about it the more i really like the Invested Crem + Voidspren = Thunderclast theory. And add in the possibility of the investiture giving Crem sentience like Sel's landscape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalaCrisp88 Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 On 1/22/2017 at 3:38 PM, Oversleep said: And... Hide contents Edgedancer spoilers Hide contents He does mention screams in the shadows when he talks with Lift. Don't have my book with me right now, but I figured that Spoiler The voices during Edgedancer were from Nightblood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 38 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said: Don't have my book with me right now, but I figured that Reveal hidden contents The voices during Edgedancer were from Nightblood Spoiler Nightblood doesn't cause screams though, just nausea, and that's only when drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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