What happened to the metals when Harmony came into power?

[OblivionRapture]

I'm sure there is something else out there about this, but does anyone have anything on what happened to the metals? Do they still exist, but no one has the ability to use them (in the same way that mistborns no longer naturally occur)? Was all of atium burned up, or is there more in existence, or did it become harmonium? If there is still atium, could harmony use it to manifest in physical form, and could he do this would ettmetal as is?

[A Budgie]

I can't remember where I saw this, but I'm pretty sure Brandon mentioned that burned metals somehow return to Scadrial. If you remember how the Pits of Hathsin 'grew' atium, I'm pretty sure that was part of the process.

[Eki]

We know atium still exists and works, because Marsh is using some of it (which we saw him steal from a kandra during HoA) to keep himself alive through compounding. Most, if not all, of the remaining atium was burned by the mistfallen at the end of HoA. We don't know if there are new Pits creating atium again after the Final Ascension.

Because atium works, I assume lerasium does too, but there might not exist any at the moment.

 

[spectacularfail]

If I remember correctly, the godmetals (and maybe all metals, but I'm not sure) once burned transfer into a  "raw energy" investiture state of sorts which eventually pools back out in the form of metal deposits in the ground (Pits of Hathsin). So, presumably, there is more atium in the ground somewhere, but I do remember a quote from the first trilogy about the time it would take for the Pits of Hathsin to recover being very high, so maybe not. It's possible that Harmony geographically moved the shardpool to a point that it is not feasible for anyone to access the atium.

[VirtuousTraveller]

10 hours ago, spectacularfail said:

If I remember correctly, the godmetals (and maybe all metals, but I'm not sure) once burned transfer into a  "raw energy" investiture state of sorts which eventually pools back out in the form of metal deposits in the ground (Pits of Hathsin)

I'd never thought about this idea, but is the metal itself that is consumed, or does burning the metal drain it of the power and then is excreted from the body in an unusable (no longer invested) form?  That can't be the case, as metals are a focus of investiture rather than an object that contains it.  So does this make Atium (and Lerasium AND Ettmetal/Harmonium) a strange rule breaker in that it actually is an invested object in the Physical Realm?

Also, while the ratio of allomancers to metal deposits on Scadrial is, I'm sure, intentionally so that they would never run out of metal, however - perhaps over time (and with the introduction of new technology) this is what eventually drives the Scadrians off planet?  Metal hunting?  Unlike Atium geodes, I don't think steel or bronze work that way of natural recreation.

[spectacularfail]

Quote

1 hour ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I'd never thought about this idea, but is the metal itself that is consumed, or does burning the metal drain it of the power and then is excreted from the body in an unusable (no longer invested) form?  That can't be the case, as metals are a focus of investiture rather than an object that contains it.  So does this make Atium (and Lerasium AND Ettmetal/Harmonium) a strange rule breaker in that it actually is an invested object in the Physical Realm?

Also, while the ratio of allomancers to metal deposits on Scadrial is, I'm sure, intentionally so that they would never run out of metal, however - perhaps over time (and with the introduction of new technology) this is what eventually drives the Scadrians off planet?  Metal hunting?  Unlike Atium geodes, I don't think steel or bronze work that way of natural recreation.

 

From everything I've seen, the metals are indeed physically consumed/burned away; I believe there's WoB saying if a nicroburst touched someone compounding (and thus allomantically burning) through an earring or bracer, the earring itself would burn away in a flash of energy.

The recent post in the forums where a chemistry major discussed the chemistry of metals in mistborn said that, in essence, the godmetals were made of pure investiture mimicing atomic structure (i.e. investiture protons, neutrons, electrons). This is why atium was considered the "body" of ruin; it was his shard's investiture consolidated in the Physical realm, so when it was burned, it was dispersed into either a realm Ruin could not access, or it was dispersed in a form Ruin could not use. If I'm remembering correctly, this was WoB from a discussion the Chem major had with Brandon, but it could be wild speculation.

[Charlie.x.3000]

Also, it's been the requisite one hundred (two hundred?) years for the Pits of Hathsin to start producing atium again.

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, Charlie.x.3000 said:

Also, it's been the requisite one hundred (two hundred?) years for the Pits of Hathsin to start producing atium again.

Three hundred. So there's a fairly good chance we might see some atium. Although, Harmony might have repossessed the power constituting atium in favour of dispersing it in the form of Ruin-imbalanced Harmonium.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[A Budgie]

Since Harmony did totally reconstruct the planet itself, it wouldn't surprise me if he made sure that the planet was very rich in metals.
Does anyone actually know (as in confirmed) whether all metals return to the planet, or just atium? I would have thought all of them, since Allomancy is supposedly end-positive: meaning energy is gained with nothing lost. That may be me interpreting it wrong.
As for atium reapearing in the later Mistborn books...I get the sense that's something that might be a plot point in one of the stories. Since atium is very powerful, it's quite possible Harmony has hidden it, or given it to the kandra to protect or something like that. Or he might have done away with it althougher, as mentioned.

[Yata]

3 hours ago, A Budgie said:

Since Harmony did totally reconstruct the planet itself, it wouldn't surprise me if he made sure that the planet was very rich in metals.

Possible, unsure but possible.

3 hours ago, A Budgie said:

Does anyone actually know (as in confirmed) whether all metals return to the planet, or just atium?

As far as I understand only the Atium works in this way and only because it's blocked in a close system...Any other metal (Lerasium included) would return at its rightful source (Preservation with the Lerasium, both Preservation and Ruin with any other mundane metal).

3 hours ago, A Budgie said:

I would have thought all of them, since Allomancy is supposedly end-positive: meaning energy is gained with nothing lost. That may be me interpreting it wrong.

The end-positive/neutral/negative is from the user's pov, this mean that if the user gain power is end-positive whatever the external resources are consumed or not.

3 hours ago, A Budgie said:

As for atium reapearing in the later Mistborn books...I get the sense that's something that might be a plot point in one of the stories. Since atium is very powerful, it's quite possible Harmony has hidden it, or given it to the kandra to protect or something like that. Or he might have done away with it althougher, as mentioned.

Possible but without Mistborn, the Atium isn't really so usefull to anyone.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Yata

[A Budgie]

12 minutes ago, Yata said:

Possible but without Mistborn, the Atium isn't really so usefull to anyone.

Oh of course, I'd totally forgotten about that.

[Spoolofwhool]

7 hours ago, A Budgie said:

Since Harmony did totally reconstruct the planet itself, it wouldn't surprise me if he made sure that the planet was very rich in metals.

He changed the geography and ground composition, similar to what TLR did. I don't think he reconstructed the entire planet. 

7 hours ago, A Budgie said:

Does anyone actually know (as in confirmed) whether all metals return to the planet, or just atium?

WoB has confirmed that the metals in Scadrial are slowly running out. 

[BlackYeti]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

Possible but without Mistborn, the Atium isn't really so usefull to anyone.

I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you.

Firstly, do we know whether Seers are still being born or not? Secondly, just think how much easier it would be to experiment with Haemalurgy if you had a universal spike that can steal anything. Thirdly, I suspect that all of the god metals can be used in ways that we don't know about yet: just look at what the southerners are doing with ettmetal/harmonium.

[Yata]

7 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you.

Firstly, do we know whether Seers are still being born or not? Secondly, just think how much easier it would be to experiment with Haemalurgy if you had a universal spike that can steal anything. Thirdly, I suspect that all of the god metals can be used in ways that we don't know about yet: just look at what the southerners are doing with ettmetal/harmonium.

You may have right, but I think Sazed fixed the Snapping manipulation, so no more Seers once the old one died. About the Atium's use for Hemalurgy...it may be usefull but no very much. You have to want to store the specific attribute to performe Hemalurgy, therefore an Atium's spike isn't really very good. It was an huge help in the era1 when some of the 16 metals weren't avaliable, now you may craft spikes of every compatible metal

[BlackYeti]

7 minutes ago, Yata said:

You may have right, but I think Sazed fixed the Snapping manipulation, so no more Seers once the old one died. About the Atium's use for Hemalurgy...it may be usefull but no very much. You have to want to store the specific attribute to performe Hemalurgy, therefore an Atium's spike isn't really very good. It was an huge help in the era1 when some of the 16 metals weren't avaliable, now you may craft spikes of every compatible metal

I think we're mostly in agreement then, but if you will allow me to clarify the point on Haemalurgy.

In order to steal anything with Haemalurgy you need 3 things: the correct intent, the correct bind point, and the correct metal. If you were to try and find a new combination therefore, you would need to test every bind point with every metal (though depending on how much you know of the system, you could narrow the metal down by the category of the attribute that you're trying to steal). We know that there's between 200 and 300 bind points in the human body, so if we assume 256 to keep to the base 2 nature of the metallic arts, that means that you'd need a maxiumum of 256*16 = 4096 guinea pigs.

Whereas if you had atium, you would effectively eliminate one of the variables. You would still need to test for the correct metal afterwards, but it reduces the maximum to 256+16 = 272 guinea pigs, a far more manageable number.  [This doesn't look anywhere near evil enough, why don't we have an evil grin option?]

[Eki]

39 minutes ago, Yata said:

You may have right, but I think Sazed fixed the Snapping manipulation, so no more Seers once the old one died. About the Atium's use for Hemalurgy...it may be usefull but no very much. You have to want to store the specific attribute to performe Hemalurgy, therefore an Atium's spike isn't really very good. It was an huge help in the era1 when some of the 16 metals weren't avaliable, now you may craft spikes of every compatible metal

I think atium Mistings were created even without Preservation's intervention. At least we know that they were created long before the mists started snapping people. Seers are probably a direct side effect of Ruin being Invested in the planet together with Preservation.

I'd say it's likely atium Mistings are being born, but never find out which power they have - just like chromium Mistings among others, back in the ash era.

[Yata]

12 hours ago, Eki said:

I think atium Mistings were created even without Preservation's intervention. At least we know that they were created long before the mists started snapping people. Seers are probably a direct side effect of Ruin being Invested in the planet together with Preservation.

I'd say it's likely atium Mistings are being born, but never find out which power they have - just like chromium Mistings among others, back in the ash era.

Mist snapped people for thousands of years, not only in the last days of the Ash World. Leras putted in place the whole system when He was still in full mind.

 

13 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

In order to steal anything with Haemalurgy you need 3 things: the correct intent, the correct bind point, and the correct metal. If you were to try and find a new combination therefore, you would need to test every bind point with every metal (though depending on how much you know of the system, you could narrow the metal down by the category of the attribute that you're trying to steal). We know that there's between 200 and 300 bind points in the human body, so if we assume 256 to keep to the base 2 nature of the metallic arts, that means that you'd need a maxiumum of 256*16 = 4096 guinea pigs.

Yes but many bindpoints may be in not lethal places, if the Hemalurgy didn't trigger the victim may easily survive to those.

[Jondesu]

On 12/24/2016 at 2:53 AM, Yata said:

Yes but many bindpoints may be in not lethal places, if the Hemalurgy didn't trigger the victim may easily survive to those.

I'm not so sure about this part. My headcanon has been that bindpoints are the places where spikes get attached to the recipient, but that all spikes are created by being driven through the victim's heart. Since I don't think we know for sure, though, I asked on Reddit and I'll let ya'll know if I get an answer.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

I'm not so sure about this part. My headcanon has been that bindpoints are the places where spikes get attached to the recipient, but that all spikes are created by being driven through the victim's heart. Since I don't think we know for sure, though, I asked on Reddit and I'll let ya'll know if I get an answer.

It seems me strange, but it's possible.

Do We know if a Spike out points  and Spike In points  are the sames ? Because a Bindpoint is surelly on the ear, another in the eyes another on the Shoulders,ecc....

The human body has 300 bind points...I feels strange if they are all on the heart

[Jondesu]

Exactly why I'm thinking bindpoints refers only to where the spike is placed to bind the stolen attribute onto the recipient. The victim has to be stabbed through the heart with the Intent to create a spike (the metal decides the attribute in most cases, unless it's an Atium spike, in which case Intent may still guide the choice of the attribute stolen), but then it must be affixed to the proper bindpoint to attach (bind) that attribute to the recipients spiritweb.

[Eki]

On 2016-12-24 at 8:53 AM, Yata said:

Mist snapped people for thousands of years, not only in the last days of the Ash World. Leras putted in place the whole system when He was still in full mind.

I suppose that's true. I still think the existence of Atium Mistings is a property of Ruin investing in the same world as Preservation, rather than something Leras did.

[OblivionRapture]

On 12/23/2016 at 7:50 AM, Yata said:

Possible, unsure but possible.

As far as I understand only the Atium works in this way and only because it's blocked in a close system...Any other metal (Lerasium included) would return at its rightful source (Preservation with the Lerasium, both Preservation and Ruin with any other mundane metal).

The end-positive/neutral/negative is from the user's pov, this mean that if the user gain power is end-positive whatever the external resources are consumed or not.

Possible but without Mistborn, the Atium isn't really so usefull to anyone.

of course, lerasium should exist, or have the possibility to exist, if atium does. So, if harmony deemed necessary, it could create lerasium enough to balance out atium...? Or maybe just make two beads of lerasium to balance out each other? Harmony is complicated in that we don't quite know what balances out in the end, where harmony clearly has positive intent (from his nature as sazed, I assume).

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, OblivionRapture said:

of course, lerasium should exist, or have the possibility to exist, if atium does. So, if harmony deemed necessary, it could create lerasium enough to balance out atium...? Or maybe just make two beads of lerasium to balance out each other? Harmony is complicated in that we don't quite know what balances out in the end, where harmony clearly has positive intent (from his nature as sazed, I assume).

The atium was already balancing out the excess power of Ruin. Creating lerasium would unbalance Harmony a bit.

[Voidus]

Some relevant WoBs:

 

Quote

DALENTHAS (15 OCTOBER 2008)
Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...
BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)
The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

Quote

QUESTION

Is metal a renewable resource on Scadrial, or is it going to run out?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It does run out

There are a few contradicting WoBs on both points, on whether or not the Well/Pits exist to my knowledge all other WoB has been a RAFO but they were mentioned to possibly exist by someone in-world so he may have changed that one or Harmony may have created new Pits.

[OblivionRapture]

12 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The atium was already balancing out the excess power of Ruin. Creating lerasium would unbalance Harmony a bit.

could harmony not create atium to balance out the lerasium, then?