[Edgedancer Spoilers] The one who lied to Darkness

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I seem to remember it being said that Dalinar being able to see the Recreance in the visions is proof that Honor was still alive at the time.

Anyway, regarding the Ishar quote, I prefer simpler answers - to apply Occam's Razor and use as few assumptions as possible. In this case, the "implications" that Ishar is referring to are likely to be about the fact that people suddenly gaining power can cause problems. Like I said, with great power comes great responsibility. To quote from the Nohadon scene in tWoK:

 

I believe this was one of the driving reasons behind Ishar's actions from that excerpt.

[Jondesu he/him]

3 hours ago, jofwu said:

This is what I'm referring to:

He required the organization and threatened their destruction because of an understanding of something deeper about Surgebinding.

I definitely think the Recreance is connected, but I could have sworn there's a WoB suggesting that Honor died quite a bit before the Recreance. No clue where it is unfortunately...

Other way around, Brandon has confirmed it was after (which makes sense since Honor had a vision of the Recreance to send to Dalinar).

I do love the idea of there being something more to Surgebinding. There's always another secret, right? Perhaps Surgebinding itself brings the Realms closer (since Kaladin apparently sees into the Cognitive and/or Spiritual, can't remember which), and with enough users could breach those barriers to a degree that allows the Voidbringer spren to make the jump, when they don't have that ability innately.

Perhaps there's even "True Voidbringers" that have never before made it to Roshar because the Desolations were defeated and Honor kept the Realms in check. If so, things could go very badly for the Rosharans.

[Pattern he/him]

My first idea reading about Ishar lying to Nale was: There is the traitor from the epigraphs of WoR. As my understanding is, the Oathpact had as a result - unknown wether intended or not - that Odium was bound to the Greater Rosharan system. He was always able to move in the system as soon as the Heralds in Damnation broke and were sent back to Roshar. This time, Taln breaks at the end of WoK and the voidspren come right after. Or the other way around, since Venli seems to be experimenting with Voidspren for longer than she admitted to Eshonai and Hoid has the impression that Taln is too late this time. So I don't think the appearance of Surgebinders leads to a desolation, but the appearance of Voidspren on Roshar. In the past, the Orders existed between desolations, so their existence didn't trigger the next desolation immediately. Don't forget, Odiums influence can be felt in the whole system. For example, the Unmade, splinters of Odium, are still on Roshar between desolations / after the last desolation: The Thrill already exists in Dalinar flashbacks (ok, thats not canon, yet) and is caused by Nergaoul, a Splinter of Odium. I understand this happens way before Gavilars' murder and the first appearance of Surgebinders (6 to 7 years before the start of the main timeline of WoK). Also, Szeth was made Truthless because he warned of an upcoming desolation - before he was given the Honorblade to kill with. Though it is still a bit unclear what is cause and what is implication, I tend to favour the appearance of Surgebinders being a reaction to an upcoming desolation. I side with genius Taravangian here: "The Desolation needs no usher. It can and it will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious, that the spren anticipate it doing so soon." - WoR p.998-

Ishar denying the fact that the desolation is already there can have many reasons. Mental instability might be one of those, and is supported by the fact that the other Heralds also seem to have mental issues: Taln is understandably traumatized by 4500 years of torture, so he cannot be compared to the other Heralds. But Shallash destroying art (or just pictures and statues of her?) and Nale killing for feeble reasons without any compassion are examples, that longevity far above the usual lifespan seems to play games with your mind (Heralds seem to have lived all the time, without time dilation effects and other stuff, as opposed to Worldhoppers). So perhaps Ishar doesn't want a desolation very very badly and so refuses to see the signs.

I don't think that is the case: "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others." - WoR p.1027- The repeated reassurance that there are no new Voidbringers is manipulating Nalan to kill new developing Surgebinders, thus playing directly into the hands of Odium. It is too clever and directed to be the result of a mere denial of undesired facts. That scheme targets the only order of Radiants who didn't abandon their oaths. Also Ishars argument, that without the regulation of Honor, Surgebinders might usher a desolation, is not valid: Desolations also happened with Honors regulation, or better said, ALL desolations until now happened with Honor alive. Either way, the spren regulate as Splinters of Honor, they mainly still have the shards intent. Talenel holding up in Damnation is the reason for the long absence of desolations. Perhaps they can happen, as soon as the first Herald breaks, so strongwilled Talenel could hold them back way longer than the 10 Heralds together. (Question for Brandon: Did Ishar often break first in Damnation?). Ishar seems to have proposed the abandoning of the Oath Pact. The Oath Pact was what bound Odium to the Greater Roshar system, so the abandonment is in Odiums interest. That Talenel alone hold out much longer than all Heralds together would have been an undesired side effect. Most of this is speculation, of course, since the narrators could be unreliable. I am fairly convinced though, that Ishar is the mentioned traitor to the others.

PS: I like contradicting myself.  So what if my thoughts are wrong and Ishar was right all the time? Then we might have a candidate for the secret that destroyed the Knights Radiant: Deep Understanding of Surgebinding (possible only with all oaths) can lead to events that have a desolation as a consequence. So the Day of Recreance might have been an attempt to stop desolations forever. The question tough is, how much time lay between the Last Desolation and the Day of Recreance. If that is millennia, there is no reason to believe that the mere existence of Surgebinders causes a desolation. So, perhaps Honor was dying at the Day of Recreance and without him, the mere existence of Surgebinders would cause a desolation. That also doesn't fit together, since the Skybreakers didn't disband, they went into hiding. So there were still Surgebinders existing without causing a desolation while Honor was dead. So Ishar was probably not right: Why should Skybreakers be different from the other orders?

Edited December 29, 2016 by Pattern
Removing more typos and adding another thought

[CalaCrisp88]

On 12/4/2016 at 0:37 PM, Jondesu said:

I do love the idea of there being something more to Surgebinding. There's always another secret, right? Perhaps Surgebinding itself brings the Realms closer (since Kaladin apparently sees into the Cognitive and/or Spiritual, can't remember which), and with enough users could breach those barriers to a degree that allows the Voidbringer spren to make the jump, when they don't have that ability innately.

Perhaps there's even "True Voidbringers" that have never before made it to Roshar because the Desolations were defeated and Honor kept the Realms in check. If so, things could go very badly for the Rosharans.

Is there much evidence for this? It sounds like a fun theory. Maybe the true danger is the "ideal" form of the Voidbringers in the Spiritual Realm?

[cometaryorbit]

I'm not sure Ishar lied. He's wrong about there not being a Desolation beginning, but that doesn't mean he's lying - he could just be wrong, especially since this Desolation doesn't seem to fit the historical pattern. There was no Everstorm before, for example, and Jasnah & Hoid talk about how it is different this time.

"One is almost certainly a traitor to the others" probably doesn't refer to the Heralds. They aren't an united group anymore as far as I can tell, and the other 2 quotes from the "Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer" are about the Unmade.

On 12/29/2016 at 4:19 AM, Pattern said:

Also Ishars argument, that without the regulation of Honor, Surgebinders might usher a desolation, is not valid: Desolations also happened with Honors regulation, or better said, ALL desolations until now happened with Honor alive.

 

I don't know that that follows. Definitely Desolations happened with Honor there, but that doesn't mean that Honor's death didn't open up a new vulnerability.

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The Oath Pact was what bound Odium to the Greater Roshar system, so the abandonment is in Odiums interest.

Do we actually know that? IIRC there's a quote that the connection is only indirect. It could well be that Honor and the Heralds' attack pushed Odium into Investing in Braize, and the Investing is the direct cause of him being unable to leave. If so, the failure of the Oathpact wouldn't necessarily free Odium.

[Pattern he/him]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't know that that follows. Definitely Desolations happened with Honor there, but that doesn't mean that Honor's death didn't open up a new vulnerability.

Since the vulnerability would be new, Ishar had no way of knowing about it. Kind of reckless strategy: Kill everyone with surgebinding powers, so something that might happen doesn't happen. Definitely not in line with "Journey before Destination". But Heralds are not bound by that, or are they? I see kind of Odiums influence there, like it manifested in Shallan's father - though no emotions are outlined with Ishar.

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Do we actually know that? IIRC there's a quote that the connection is only indirect.

The letter from [Frost?] to [Hoid?] implies that Odium is bound and an equilibrium is reached. So he is bound to the Greater Rosharan system by the actions of Tanavast, wether intended or not. That probably is not in the shards intent, so breaking free by the True Desolation would be in the interest of Odium/Rayse. Also somewhere it is said, that by letting the Rosharans be for a time, instead of fighting regularly, weakened the resistance against Odium. So some more delaying, while saying there is no Desolation coming and stretching FAR to ignore evidence of an upcoming Desolation, fits to that strategm.

Perhaps Ishar is just stupid, you can't be a 100% sure at book 2, but still I would put my spheres on him being a traitor.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Pattern

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

Since the vulnerability would be new, Ishar had no way of knowing about it.

Depends on how much he knows about the underlying mechanics of Surgebinding and Desolations (the way they used to work, anyway). It might be quite predictable if you understood the Realmatics of it sufficiently - we don't, but a Herald might.

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The letter from [Frost?] to [Hoid?] implies that Odium is bound and an equilibrium is reached. So he is bound to the Greater Rosharan system by the actions of Tanavast, wether intended or not. That probably is not in the shards intent, so breaking free by the True Desolation would be in the interest of Odium/Rayse.

Oh I agree that he's bound and that Tanavast had something to do with that. But if it's only indirectly a result of the Oathpact destroying the Oathpact might not accomplish anything. The True Desolation probably would free Rayse/Odium, but we don't know how.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure Ishar lied. He's wrong about there not being a Desolation beginning, but that doesn't mean he's lying - he could just be wrong, especially since this Desolation doesn't seem to fit the historical pattern. There was no Everstorm before, for example, and Jasnah & Hoid talk about how it is different this time.

"One is almost certainly a traitor to the others" probably doesn't refer to the Heralds. They aren't an united group anymore as far as I can tell, and the other 2 quotes from the "Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer" are about the Unmade.

[..]

Do we actually know that? IIRC there's a quote that the connection is only indirect. It could well be that Honor and the Heralds' attack pushed Odium into Investing in Braize, and the Investing is the direct cause of him being unable to leave. If so, the failure of the Oathpact wouldn't necessarily free Odium.

Finally. Someone other than me who never jumped on the Ishar is evil bandwagon. The biggest thing that kept me from jumping over was Jezrien's words: "Ishar thinks." He wasn't certain.

As for the Book of the Drawer, people have pointed out how many paragraphs are between Unmade and the traitor. And the fact that he left the unmade topic and went to kingship. There is still the possibility that his traitor line has to refer to some manner of kingship, perhaps one of the other world leaders or something. It's a stretch, I know.

 

Lastly, I believe the wording of the WoB was that the Oathpact is binding Odium to the Roshar system, but not directly binding him. It has been theorized in another thread or two that the pact itself could bind any wayward shard who happens to show up, and wasn't specifically designed to trap Odium. Sure they are happy that Odium can't escape because of it, but they may not have built it for that purpose.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Finally. Someone other than me who never jumped on the Ishar is evil bandwagon. The biggest thing that kept me from jumping over was Jezrien's words: "Ishar thinks." He wasn't certain.

Jezrien says "Ishar believes" in my copy of TWoK, not thinks. And in any case, I don't know that the argument follows. If I say, "My niece thinks that Santa Claus gave her a bike for Christmas," am I saying that my niece isn't sure about Santa Claus giving her the bike, or does that mean that I'm not so sure the bike came from Santa Claus? In other words, it reads to me like Jezrien isn't 100% sure in his heart of hearts.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Harry the Heir
to elaborate on my argument

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Harry the Heir said:

Jezrien says "Ishar believes" in my copy of TWoK, not thinks. And in any case, I don't know that the argument follows. If I say, "My niece thinks that Santa Claus gave her a bike for Christmas," am I saying that my niece isn't sure about Santa Claus giving her the bike, or does that mean that I'm not so sure the bike came from Santa Claus? In other words, it reads to me like Jezrien isn't 100% sure in his heart of hearts.

You're correct about the specific word use, but without the full context of Ishar's understanding, "he thinks" and "he believes" may still be synonymous, regardless of how certain he is. We don't know yet.

For example:   "I think this will work."   And   "I believe this will work."   I can use both of these sentences to imply uncertainty, or to imply being fairly certain. It's all dependant upon my tone of voice when I say it.

According to the New Oxford English Dictionary, "think" is defined as: 

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1. [ with clause ] have a particular opinion, belief, or idea about someone or something

I personally feel that using "think" to imply uncertainty is a trope in its own right. One that became pretty popular (as I used it in my prior post ), but the definition leaves plenty of room for it to be used when you are of the opinion that something will work.

Technically, neither of them would mean the Ishar is certain, as both "think" and "believe" are opinions in that context. If he was certain, Ishar should've said "I know" or "I'm certain" 

Lastly, as Kalak's "you're broken too" revelation implies, Jezrien is not completely sure if they are making the right choice. I definitely agree with you there.

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As for the Book of the Drawer, people have pointed out how many paragraphs are between Unmade and the traitor. And the fact that he left the unmade topic and went to kingship.

Kingship doesn't really have much to do with one of the Heralds betraying the others either. Also, I'm not sure the statement even makes sense in relation to the Heralds - the Heralds already "betrayed" the Oathpact (and apparently Taln - "The burdens of nine become mine").

And the Diagram says that the Unmade are a distraction that he can't help but think about. It wouldn't be surprising for the topic to circle back to the Unmade. Unknowable at this point, though - hopefully there'll be more Diagram material in Oathbringer.

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There is still the possibility that his traitor line has to refer to some manner of kingship, perhaps one of the other world leaders or something. It's a stretch, I know.

The other thing I considered is that it refers to one of the Highprinces, but this epigraph is very late in WOR, so we already know Sadeas is evil. (But is he actually a traitor? Hmm... maybe one of the other Highprinces was working with the Parshendi or is influenced by an Odium-spren?)

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Lastly, I believe the wording of the WoB was that the Oathpact is binding Odium to the Roshar system, but not directly binding him. It has been theorized in another thread or two that the pact itself could bind any wayward shard who happens to show up, and wasn't specifically designed to trap Odium.

Sure, but indirectly can mean pretty much any degree of connection. It's not clear to me that the Oathpact actually has any imprisoning function at all. (My personal theory is that the Oathpact just made the Heralds incredibly powerful as Honor's Champions, so Odium had to fully Invest in the Roshar system to produce Champions to match them. Being Invested is actually what traps Odium, but since he was driven to that measure by the Oathpact, it's the indirect cause.)

[The Invested Beard]

So after reading all this, I have a question.
 Could it be that the Recreance was actually the KR finding out that what they were doing was going to set Odium free somehow? I don't have all the logistics laid out but it would fit I think.

[Frostlander]

Not sure why the Heralds were seemingly all at the breaking point (with the possible exception of Taln) during that last desolation, but assuming they were, did Ishar make plans with Odium knowing at least eight would accept his theory? And if so, is it possible that Ishar killed Taln in that final battle because he was the least likely to go along with the plan and/or the most likely to hold out under torture for the longest? All we know about Taln in the battle is what Jezrien said:

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“You might call it a miracle. Only one of us died this time.” “Talenel,” Kalak said. His was the only Blade unaccounted for. “Yes. He died holding that passage by the northern waterway.” Kalak nodded. Taln had a tendency to choose seemingly hopeless fights and win them. He also had a tendency to die in the process.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 16). Macmillan. Kindle Edition. 

2

Where did Jezrien get this information, and is it true? The whole thing is speculation, and Ishar's motives aren't clear, but it's an intriguing possibility. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 hours ago, Frostlander said:

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Talenel,” [..] He died holding that passage by the northern waterway.” Kalak nodded. Taln had a tendency to choose seemingly hopeless fights and win them. He also had a tendency to die in the process.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 16). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Where did Jezrien get this information, and is it true? The whole thing is speculation, and Ishar's motives aren't clear, but it's an intriguing possibility. 

I imagine any of the normal soldiers, or some surviving Radiants that likely helped him out defending the area could corroborate that story. And Kalak accepts that line as "typical Taln, too stubborn for his own good." which I'll admit is there to make it more believable to us, the readers.

Come to think of it, I don't think any troops he had with him would leave him behind to help out elsewhere long enough for Ishar to attack him. Or rather, I have a hard time believing that Talenel "stubborn to the point of immortality" 'Elin would hold back at the waterway while the battle was still going on and just let his troops take care of whatever may still be alive. The prelude starts just after Kalak kills a Thunderclast, so we know some of those were still alive out there.

Secondly, if Ishar showed up and Taln did send his troops out with an "I'll be right behind you." I imagine they would suspect something if he was somehow dead, especially given whatever hell he stomped by the waterway earlier.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I imagine any of the normal soldiers, or some surviving Radiants that likely helped him out defending the area could corroborate that story. And Kalak accepts that line as "typical Taln, too stubborn for his own good." which I'll admit is there to make it more believable to us, the readers.

Come to think of it, I don't think any troops he had with him would leave him behind to help out elsewhere long enough for Ishar to attack him. Or rather, I have a hard time believing that Talenel "stubborn to the point of immortality" 'Elin would hold back at the waterway while the battle was still going on and just let his troops take care of whatever may still be alive. The prelude starts just after Kalak kills a Thunderclast, so we know some of those were still alive out there.

Secondly, if Ishar showed up and Taln did send his troops out with an "I'll be right behind you." I imagine they would suspect something if he was somehow dead, especially given whatever hell he stomped by the waterway earlier.

Depending on how many troops stayed behind with Taln, Ishar could have killed them as well. But if Taln is like to get himself killed anyway, Ishar could have been more subtle. If he has any influence on battlefield communications, deploying reinforcements, or so forth, then he could do a lot to ensure that Taln's forces were overwhelmed. (And Guiding is one of his attributes; presumably this is within his wheelhouse.) There's no reason why he should have do anything big and splashy like kill another Herald when a Desolation should offer so many other possibilities for mischief.

And if I can go from speculation to wacky conspiracy theories... maybe it's no miracle that only Taln died. If Ishar and Odium are working together, couldn't he direct his forces knowing that the only Herald he really wants to kill is the one too stubborn to quit no matter what? He could in essence be throwing this Desolation in order to bag a more lasting victory.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

12 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

If he has any influence on battlefield communications, deploying reinforcements, or so forth, then he could do a lot to ensure that Taln's forces were overwhelmed. (And Guiding is one of his attributes; presumably this is within his wheelhouse.) 

Upvote purely for cleverness. Well done.

12 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

If Ishar and Odium are working together, couldn't he direct his forces knowing that the only Herald he really wants to kill is the one too stubborn to quit no matter what? He could in essence be throwing this Desolation in order to bag a more lasting victory.

I... yea that is a wacky one. We've speculated that the Intent of Hatred would allow him a decent level of future-sight, so the patience for a plan like this is feasible enough. Depending on the overall size and terrain of the battlefield and/or Odium's forces, I am not sure if he could direct enough of them to that area and not have them wander off in search of better prospects. I mainly add this because (to me at least) "passage by a waterway" implies some form of choke-point rather than a clearing that Taln and Co. could be swarmed from all sides in. 

. . .

I'm gauging the odds of it having been a trap vs a rout based on the geography of the area after the battle. What have we become?

Edited January 3, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Frostlander]

On 1/3/2017 at 0:53 PM, Harry the Heir said:

Depending on how many troops stayed behind with Taln, Ishar could have killed them as well. But if Taln is like to get himself killed anyway, Ishar could have been more subtle. If he has any influence on battlefield communications, deploying reinforcements, or so forth, then he could do a lot to ensure that Taln's forces were overwhelmed. (And Guiding is one of his attributes; presumably this is within his wheelhouse.) There's no reason why he should have do anything big and splashy like kill another Herald when a Desolation should offer so many other possibilities for mischief.

And if I can go from speculation to wacky conspiracy theories... maybe it's no miracle that only Taln died. If Ishar and Odium are working together, couldn't he direct his forces knowing that the only Herald he really wants to kill is the one too stubborn to quit no matter what? He could in essence be throwing this Desolation in order to bag a more lasting victory.

 

I suspect that it really was more a matter of Ishar setting Taln up to die, though we don't know how. One other passage that stood out to explain why Odium might recruit a traitor Herald comes from Stormfather:

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"Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another. Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing."

 

The loss and recovery of knowledge, which is a major theme of these books, lines up with the idea that Odium understood that his best chance of winning was to keep the span between desolations long enough that Roshar would forget how Desolations and Voidbringers/Voidbinding worked. Then, something "new" like the Everstorm could be set in motion. Jasnah says that even the Highspren were in the dark about this and that her information was likely all wrong.

So, it seems possible that Ishar "choreographed" things so that the person who could hold out the longest under torture and buy Odium enough time for humans and spren to forget would be the only one to die. Kalak speculates that the Heralds were broken in the Prologue, and that might be how Odium worked Ishar.

The most exciting thing is that now that Ishar is the main suspect for the traitor mentioned in the Diagram, much of what we thought we knew is potentially suspect, up to the very highest levels.