[Edgedancer Spoilers] The one who lied to Darkness

[dantlee]

I've seen a few comments here and there but thought it would be a good idea to pull them together as a separate discussion topic.

So, it's pretty clear that Ishar was blatantly lying to Nale about being able to stop the desolation by just going around slaughtering surgebinders left and right.

Spoiler

"But..." said the male initiate. "Is it really ... I mean, shouldn't we want them to return, so we won't be the only order of Knights Radiant?" 
"Unfortunately, no," Darkness said. "I once thought as you, but Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation... Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us - the greater law of protecting Roshar - is required."

And a few pages later:

Spoiler

"I saw them return," the assassin whispered. "the new storm, the red eyes. You are wrong, Nin-son-God. You are wrong." 
"A fluke," Darkness said, his voice firm. "I contacted Ishar, and he assured me it is so."
.....
"You're wrong. So wrong..."
"The Voidbringers have not returned," Darkness said firmly. "Ishar has promised it, and he will not lie."

It's thus very heavily implied that he has betrayed the heralds, and may have been working for Odium for quite some time. After all, it was at his suggestion that they decided to break the Oathpact in the first place:

Quote

[Jezrien]: "...A decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end." 
Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. "What will that do?"
"Ishar believes that so long as there is one of still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." 

My question is, why? Nale obviously has nearly unshakable trust in Ishar, despite massive amounts of evidence contradicting everything he said. We also know that Ishar was instrumental in the original creation of the Knights Radiant: 

Quote

"But as for Ishi'elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph 

Finally, I think it's very plausible, if not likely, that this part of the Diagram is referring to Ishar as well: 

Quote

"One is almost certainly a traitor to the others." - Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer, Paragraph 27

I'm guessing that his betrayal happened sometime after the creation of the KR, possibly after the Recreance? But I have no idea what his reason, and what the implications for Dalinar and the Bondsmiths, could be. I encourage and welcome any and all rampant speculation on these topics. 

[Argent he/him]

I am in favor of Ishar just being so sick of the endless torture, he decided to get himself out of the Oathpact - even before the prologue (prelude?). I don't think he was evil in any way, at least not back then (it's debatable now), so he saw no harm in getting all the surviving Heralds out along with himself. Taln had to suffer anyway, I imagine him thinking, and we can't help him, but we don't have to suffer with him. In this theory, He may have formed an alliance with Odium back then, but I don't think so - I think he acted on his own there, and continues to act on his own. Which suggest to me that he is afraid of the return of the Radiants, probably because he is afraid their return will somehow cause the Oathpact to force him to fight and/or be tortured.

I expect Ishar's story will be a sad one once we learn it.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I can see it either way, though I think Ishar may just be misguided (keep in mind the Diagram says "almost certainly"). That being said, it's possible that before the Desolation we witness end during the Prelude, Ishar had made an agreement with Odium while being tortured. I don't think he's actively working against our heroes, but it's possible he was told convince the others and abandon the Oathpact, and in return, Odium would spare him and his friends.

And you've gone ahead and quoted a passage I've wanted to refer to for a long time. Guess I should go to the Edgedancer Reactions thread with it, though, since it doesn't relate to this topic and I don't think it warrants creating a new one.

[Subvisual Haze]

I had similar thoughts when reading and I could also see it going either way.  Perhaps Ishi is a traitor or openly lying to the other Heralds to spare himself from further suffering.  He could also be in a similar boat as Nale though, going progressively crazy and desperately clinging to a poorly founded theory to avoid having to face an unpleasant reality.

[dantlee]

All fair points. One of the reasons I think it's more likely that he actually betrayed the heralds, instead of being motivated by self-preservation, is that he seems to be by far the most knowledgeable regarding the Oathpact, surgebindings, and Desolations among the heralds. Both Nale and Jezrien are surprisingly deferential to his advice,

There's a big difference in his potentially malicious intent between the prelude, when he was theorizing that Taln alone might be able to hold the Oathpact, and the present day, when he is promising and convincing Nale that everything is okay, even when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Ishar would at least have to consider the possibility that he's wrong, and the consequences if he is, but he not only denies this possibility, he actively encourages Nale to kill anyone displaying surgebinding abilities.

This is particularly strange behaviour considering the second ideal of the Bondsmiths ("I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together.") and the heavy implication that the Bondsmiths had a specific leadership role within the KR. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

People deny reality all the time, though, particularly when their own sanity is on the line  just look at Shallan. Plus, he might feel incredibly guilty for abandoning Taln in an attempt to stop the cycle of Desolations, since it's lately being proven to have only have made things worse.

Additionally, he could honestly believe that the Radiants resurfacing are what allowed the Everstorm to begin. I mean, let's look at the chain of events.

1. Gavilar begins receiving visions from the Stormfather, becoming a proto-Bondsmith, like Dalinar is now.
2. Gavilar is assassinated by the Parshendi for attempting to restore their "gods"(?), sparking the War of Reckoning.
3. The War of Reckoning forces the Parshendi into a corner, forcing Eshonai to bond a Stormspren.
4. Eshonai and many other Parshendi are now influenced by Odium, and via him, summon the Everstorm, bringing the Last Desolation.

So in other words, the Last Desolation wouldn't have began when it did if it weren't for proto-Radiants, and thus Ishar was technically right. He could have just refused to accept he failed, like Nale.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Argent he/him]

1 hour ago, dantlee said:

Ishar would at least have to consider the possibility that he's wrong

Which is why I think his betrayal got worse over time. I do believe he knows what he is doing by lying to Nale about the cause of the Desolations and sending him to kill Surgebinders, but I think he is doing it to avoid the (re)inforcement of the Oathpact somehow. The Oathpact, the Desolations, and both the return and the departure of the Heralds are all connected somehow, and so I think he has a reason (valid or not) to believe that the return of the Radiants will somehow result in him being sent back to the "place of fire."

[Subvisual Haze]

He could also just be flat out wrong.  That's one thing I particularly enjoy about Sanderson's Cosmere, even the incredibly knowledgeable and powerful characters don't know everything and occasionally make bad guesses based on bad information.

As far as we know every desolation before this one was triggered by a very standard set of events.  Ishi couldn't really be faulted for failing to predict alternate methods of summoning a desolation as he had no existing data set to draw from.  After that, just toss in some all too human self-deception and desperate subconcious fear to avoid future torture, and his clinging to a false belief in the face of overwhelming evidence doesn't seem impossible.

[Jaconis]

Is it possible that he has some way of contacting Taln?

This idea assumes that the theory that a Desolation in the past was triggered when the Heralds couldn't take the torture anymore.

We know for sure that the man we know as Taln thinks he's the Herald of War, but may not be. If he's not, and the real Taln is still being tortured, and Ishar has a way of checking that, he may feel certain that an actual capital D Desolation is not occurring. Just as Nale suggests, Ishar thinks this is just a small contingent of listeners who found a voidform, and are no real threat. Perhaps when Nale confronts him (which is what I assume he went off to do), Ishar will see the truth?

[djammmer]

8 hours ago, Argent said:

 I do believe he knows what he is doing by lying to Nale about the cause of the Desolations and sending him to kill Surgebinders, but I think he is doing it to avoid the (re)inforcement of the Oathpact somehow. 

Additionally / Alternatively (take your pick), he could be doing it to keep this oath he made ages ago:

Quote

"But as for Ishi'elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph 

That as surgebinders are popping up without precepts and laws... he is destroying them like he promised to.  Using Nale to do his dirty work.

[djammmer]

Also, i find it interesting... that as the leader of the Bondsmiths, Ishar is doing the opposite of bonding.  He's dividing.  And i find it intriguing that "tension" could have potentially opposite meanings.  Tension as in a tense rope when "pulling" things together.  Or tension as an emotional state... as in all the emotional chaos he is causing.

[Kanrei]

5 hours ago, djammmer said:

Also, i find it interesting... that as the leader of the Bondsmiths, Ishar is doing the opposite of bonding.  He's dividing.  And i find it intriguing that "tension" could have potentially opposite meanings.  Tension as in a tense rope when "pulling" things together.  Or tension as an emotional state... as in all the emotional chaos he is causing.

Well I see Heralds more as patrons of Orders then literal leaders.

We shouldnt assume that Heralds adhere to same Oaths like Radiants do.

Oaths are checks on Radiants provided by sprens. But we dont know if sprens actually mimicked Heralds in that or only on surges provided by Honorbaldes and very general idea Heral represented.

[Argent he/him]

8 hours ago, djammmer said:

Additionally / Alternatively (take your pick), he could be doing it to keep this oath he made ages ago:

This is interesting. I find it very very likely too. I don't know whether it is more or less likely (to me) than my "he wanted to not suffer anymore" theory, but I know I find it difficult to choose between them.

[Stark he/him]

@Argent I thought the oath he took, and organization he enforced had to do with the five ideals?  

[1stBondsmith he/him]

10 hours ago, djammmer said:

Also, i find it interesting... that as the leader of the Bondsmiths, Ishar is doing the opposite of bonding.  He's dividing.  And i find it intriguing that "tension" could have potentially opposite meanings.  Tension as in a tense rope when "pulling" things together.  Or tension as an emotional state... as in all the emotional chaos he is causing.

In the scientific/engineering world, Tension is the power of something to be held together when being pulled apart. Something with low tensile strength, or low tension, is easily pulled apart. Something with high Tension (can sustain high tension), has a high tensile value. Giving something a low tension will allow it to break. So a person that can control Tension would be able to keep together or separate things by changing the tensile strength. This is not done in our world because tension is an innate property of materials, but if it becomes a Surge, I assume you can change that. It becomes a very powerful surge when applied to physical materials, or the spiritual bonds between people.

[Argent he/him]

10 hours ago, djammmer said:

[Ishar] let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws

@Stark this is what I am referring to. Not the Radiants' oaths, but Ishar's own vow to mess them up if they go bad.

[Stark he/him]

@Argent I guess my confusion comes from that.  If they can't gain power without following the Oaths/Ideals, you can't have porto-radiants unless they are behaving.  So unless he has gone completely nuts, killing them to keep from organizing makes no sense.  By definition they have to follow.

 

So if he is intentionally harming them, I don't think it has to do with his old Oath - they are still following that command, if unknowingly.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we see him try to use that justification, we will know it is false, and likely be able to conclude that Ishar has changed sides.

[Argent he/him]

11 minutes ago, Stark said:

@Argent I guess my confusion comes from that.  If they can't gain power without following the Oaths/Ideals, you can't have porto-radiants unless they are behaving.  So unless he has gone completely nuts, killing them to keep from organizing makes no sense.  By definition they have to follow.

The difference between a Surgebinder and a Radiant is the social structure around the latter. The (inworld) Words of Radiance quote suggests Ishar was instrumental in establishing the Orders - the laws that governed them, their rules, their place in society. In other words, he saw that men and spren were bonding, an he wanted to minimize the risk of strongly invested individuals wrecking havoc in the world. He could've gotten a little upset about the Recreance...

[Savanorn he/him]

It seems pretty straightforward to me. 

We have Shallash, patron of art, who destroys art. 

We have Jezrien, patron of regality, who is a beggar. 

We have Ishi, patron of Bondsmiths, who is a traitor (he is dividing the Heralds and world).

It fits in the idea of the Corrupted Heralds more or less becomming their opposite. 

It is worth noting though that even if Ishi is a traitor, it doesn't necessarily mean he is lying about everything. The Everstorm is a new thing, and so far as I can tell it isn't the same as a Desolation.

[Jofwu he/him]

What's this theory about Ishar being a traitor? I missed it. Link please? :-)

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

52 minutes ago, jofwu said:

What's this theory about Ishar being a traitor? I missed it. Link please? :-)

This is the page. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by Ookla the gatorgirl00

[Jofwu he/him]

2 hours ago, Ookla the gatorgirl00 said:

This is the page. 

Ha! I don't know how I got down here without reading the top. Sorry and thanks!

My gut tells me that Ishar is just lying to himself. His concern back when the KR were founded seems to be consistent with the argument for why they can't be allowed to return. Unless he was bad all the way back then, I think we have to accept that there's merit to his argument. Right? Something about the nahel bond truly risks creating a scenario that allows for voidbringers to return and start a Desolation.

This makes me think it's more likely that his denial is rooted in desperate fear. He denies the Desolation has come not because he's a traitor trying to hide the truth but simply because the truth would be unbearable.

However...

Nale describes going to Ishar with his concerns and leaving certain that Ishar told him the truth. This all seems to imply that Nale believe Ishar SHOULD know the truth. Why else would Nale go to the man for answers? He must have reason to believe that Ishar knows what's going on better than he does. Nale being a Herald himself, that's saying something. And if Nale's acknowledgement of this is well-founded... It implies that Ishar IS lying after all. I dunno... Just feels odd how he says "Ishar wouldn't LIE," rather than something more like "Ishar can't be wrong."

[kari-no-sugata]

Quote

"But as for Ishi'elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph 

Regarding the quote above, I would say that the highlighted part and what is happening now is definitely not "more of the same". Assuming this quote is true, then back then Ishar was basically saying "with great power comes great responsibility" while now it's more like "you must be killed before your powers develop". You could say that one is a corrupted version of the other but they're certainly not the same.

Ishar's in-world argument to Nale is this:

Quote

If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds.

The critical difference between then and now (according to this argument) is that Honor is no longer around to "regulate this". This is why I suggested in another thread that perhaps Honor's impending death (around the time of the Recreance) led Ishar to actually instigate the Recreance. Putting it another way, if Ishar believed in this same argument (or at least, was making it) at that time then it could become the basis for the Recreance. I don't believe we know exactly when Honor died but I believe Brandon has hinted he was close to death around the time of the Recreance or at least didn't survive much beyond it - Dalinar has not had any visions from times after it as far as we know.

This doesn't tell us whether Ishar actually believes this or not or whether it's true (or plausible) or not of course.

[Jofwu he/him]

This is what I'm referring to:

Quote

... he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men...

He required the organization and threatened their destruction because of an understanding of something deeper about Surgebinding.

I definitely think the Recreance is connected, but I could have sworn there's a WoB suggesting that Honor died quite a bit before the Recreance. No clue where it is unfortunately...

Edited December 4, 2016 by jofwu

[kari-no-sugata]

I seem to remember it being said that Dalinar being able to see the Recreance in the visions is proof that Honor was still alive at the time.

Anyway, regarding the Ishar quote, I prefer simpler answers - to apply Occam's Razor and use as few assumptions as possible. In this case, the "implications" that Ishar is referring to are likely to be about the fact that people suddenly gaining power can cause problems. Like I said, with great power comes great responsibility. To quote from the Nohadon scene in tWoK:

Quote

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”