Where Is Adonalsium’s Investiture? [AU Spoilers]

[Confused]

I recently posted that the Dor is Adonalsium’s Investiture, changed by Dominion and Devotion only as necessary to create Sel’s magic systems. Responders cited the prepublication AU Selish essay in rebuttal. Khriss states that Devotion and Dominion’s Investiture alone constitutes the Dor.

Here’s my question for this thread: If Khriss is right, and Shardworld Investiture comes solely from the Shards, then where is Adonalsium’s Investiture? He created the Cosmere – where did his Investiture go?

Contrary to Khriss, I believe MOST Investiture in the Cosmere comes from Adonalsium. Except for Scadrial, a Shard-created planet, Shards piggy-backed on Adonalsium’s Investiture to make their magic systems. I’m working through a major unpublished theory, and this is a key component. In view of AU, I thought I’d throw this discussion open for advice and input. Where do YOU think Adonalsium’s Investiture went? Here are my thoughts:

1. Brandon says the Cosmere is identical to our universe’s physics, except for its magical component. He says that magic is PART of the Cosmere’s “physics.”

2. Brandon says that Adonalsium left “Ambient Magic” on Shardworlds – magic that is part of the “natural ecosystem” but that mortals cannot command. To me, “natural” means that Adonalsium created the ecosystem including its magic. By definition, anything Adonalsium created is “natural,” since nothing existed before he created it.

3. There are two known examples of Ambient Magic: First of the Sun and pre-human Roshar. First of the Sun’s magic stems from the Patje Shardpool, which Invests worms eaten by the Aviar that give the Aviar their magical abilities. The Aviar bond to specific mortals, like Sixth of the Dusk, and grant those mortals certain cognitive abilities. These mortals cannot command the magic to do anything.

4. Pre-human Roshar life was dominated by animals (and plants?) engaged in various symbiotic relationships with spren. Brandon describes how “natural” it is for spren to bond with listeners, and we see spren supporting greatshells, skyeels and other fauna. Listeners transform during highstorms, the bringers of Stormlight, and WoR suggests greatshells do as well.

5. Highstorms were originally “meteorological events” and were “later Invested.” I interpret this “later Investment” as coming from the Shards. I believe highstorms always produced Stormlight, since that was “natural” to Roshar. Without Stormlight, spren symbiosis would likely have been impossible. The listeners’ “Rider of Storms” predates human migration to Roshar.

6. If Stormlight is a natural part of Roshar’s ecology – part of Roshar’s Ambient Magic – then Stormlight must be Adonalsium Investiture. Otherwise, we’d have to conclude that the Shards created Roshar’s spren-based Ambient Magic. With all the Adonalsium spren on Roshar, that seems unlikely. [My unpublished theory concludes that Honor and Cultivation’s Investment created Radiantspren and made spren bondable to humans and stand-alone gemstones (that is, gemstones not part of “living” gemhearts). Spren in their “natural” state could only bond with native lifeforms. Shard Investment thus created the Surgebinding and fabrial magic systems.]

7. If Stormlight is Adonalsium Investiture and fuels Roshar’s Ambient Magic, why don’t we see similar things on other Shardworlds? I think we do; hence, my “The Dor is Adonalsium’s Investiture” post. I suggest the Shards picked the planets they did to Invest because Adonalsium had left more Investiture on those planets than others. That made it easier for the Shards to create their magic systems. [I’m leaving Scadrial out of this discussion, since it is a Shard-created planet. I do address it in my theory.]

8. Khriss is an arcanist, a “magical scientist.” Scientists make mistakes. I think Khriss over-values the role of the Shards and undervalues Adonalsium’s role in creating Cosmere magic. Brandon hints this may be so:

“I’ve begun to wonder if something greater is happening on Sel than we…have guessed. Something with origins lost in time.” (AU Kindle, p. 17.)

9. Khriss also doesn’t know how the Patje Shardpool came to be on First of the Sun. To me, this in particular highlights her blind spot about Adonalsium’s Investiture.

If you agree with Khriss, please answer this thread’s question: where is Adonalsium’s Investiture? We know for sure it’s on Roshar…where did the rest of it go?

Possible counterarguments:

A. “Adonalsium’s Investiture is still in the Spiritual Realm and is now controlled by the Shards.”

That’s true, but it doesn’t fully answer the question. My question is what happened to Investiture Adonalsium ALREADY INVESTED on Shardworlds before he Shattered. Investiture exists in all three Realms, just like everything else. Stormlight, for example, exists in the Physical Realm in gaseous form; exists in the Cognitive Realm as collectively perceived by Roshar’s inhabitants; and exists in Roshar’s Spiritual DNA, part of the planet’s SpiritWeb. It is the Ambient Magic Adonalsium built in to the planet, the Investiture he already Invested in that planet.

B. “Adonalsium’s Investiture was left in small amounts on many, many planets. He didn’t Invest any one or more planets with enough magic to create a magic system.”

This argument has merit, except for the contrary example of Roshar. Adonalsium Invested A LOT of Stormlight, enough to sustain the entire planet’s flourishing ecosystem. If it happened once, it happened more than once.

C. A corollary to this argument is that Adonalsium mostly Invested in the Cosmere’s matter and energy. He Invested little or nothing in Investiture, as Khriss’ “Drominad System” essay suggests. Again I pose Roshar as contrary evidence.

What do you think? Where is Adonalsium’s Investiture?

[Titan Arum]

Aren't the 16 Shards basically the pieces of Adonalsium's Investiture? He/She held all 16 Intents before, right?

[natc]

Well, I was under the impression that the intents were only what they were because of the vessels that shattered Adonalsium being who they were . . . there are many ways to break an object into equally sized pieces after all.

 

 

But on the point, I'm sure once you somehow "contaminate" investiture with a shard's intent it would basically be theirs. The Rider of Storms seems to predate the settlement of humans on Roshar, which if religion is at all correct on the matter is caused by shardic intervention.

Edited November 24, 2016 by natc

[Spoolofwhool]

As far as I'm aware, Adonalsium's investiture is either kind of everywhere, at basic levels forming physical, cognitive and spiritual entities while at advanced levels forming ambient magic phenomenon's such as aviar, shades, stormlight and Listener transformation. Otherwise, the investiture is under the domain of the different shards, either as a collected mass or splintered. 

What I don't understand is why you're hung on the idea that the investiture would've had to have been left in specific places, and why it has to be the same on all worlds. Based on what Brandon has said, it seems to me that Adonalsium's investiture is just spread over the Cosmere, at possible random. 

2 hours ago, Confused said:

Here’s my question for this thread: If Khriss is right, and Shardworld Investiture comes solely from the Shards, then where is Adonalsium’s Investiture? He created the Cosmere – where did his Investiture go?

Also, Khriss didn't say that Shardworld Investiture only comes from shards, she said the Dor came from Dominion and Devotion. There can be other investiture on a major shardworld from Adonalsium, such as Roshar, as you pointed out.

[Yata he/him]

First of all I want to say that I read only the public essay of the AU therefore something I may say could be disproved by Essays I could not read yet.

Now, returning in the topic:

Your points 4 and 5 contraddicts each other...If there is need of Stormlight to sustains the Roshar's ecosystem from the beginning. The Hightstorm had to spread Stormlight from the beginning.

As a little correction (it's not stricly relevant to the topic): Humans were on Roshar from before the Shattering (maybe just some ethnicity as the Shin.....I don't know), there are only two planets in the Cosmere where Mankind didn't predate Shards' arrive (and of course one of them is Scadrial)

In the main topic, just yesterday we recive a WoB who may point to the "Stormlight is H&C's Investiture" (it's a bit long therefore I will put under spoiler tag for the length):

Spoiler

Dj: So, say you have a gold/gold Twinborn and they worldhop to Roshar and they study the magic and do the whole Khriss and Nazh thing for a while so that they know a lot about the magic, but they've also left themselves a lot of options with what they can do. So then they manage to pull up a gold shadow of them having actually become a Surgebinder and then kind of meld themselves with that shadow a bunch, could they change their Cognitive Identity enough so that they could, like, tap a lot of Gold and grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder?

B: Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

Dj: They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

B: They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

Dj: So if they had Regrowth cast on them, would that do it?

B: hems and haws for a second.

Dj: A really, really big Regrowth like in the middle of a Highstorm.

B: Hmmm, this, you are getting to the realm of plausibility at that point. I still don't think gold is the way to do it. I think you just get all that Investiture. It would become sapient by you sticking a whole bunch of Investiture, and then you can bond to that. But it's not like people gain what you would have done. Does that make sense? That's just what's going to happen, is you're gonna, you can create a, potentially create a spren that way, but you are more likely to end up with something like Nightblood. But you could potentially create a spren, but I mean you're just gonna end up...

My own model for Roshar was made with the basic concept of Stormlight as a Adonalsium's Investiture leaved there to sustain the ecosystem (but I considerated it an unique case in the Cosmere) but I probably failed too.

Now that about the ambient Investiture: I imagine that almost all the minor Shardworlds have some magical weirdness caused by the simple Realmatic Interaction with the Investiture used to build them. There would be probably places where the Investiture condensate more, but nothing extreme (maybe Paaji's Eye)

Of course we don't know actually how Adonalsium worked in those day, but if we used the assumption that He worked as a Uber-Shard with a galaxy wide influence. You may see how the whole Cosmere is a upscaled version of Scadrial (the only Shard made planet so far)... So the question would be, if you remove the perpendicularity and actually attive use of Investiture by Harmony. Where is Harmony's Investiture on Scadrial ?

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Yata

[Landis963 he/him]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

So the question would be, if you remove the perpendicularity and actually attive use of Investiture by Harmony. Where is Harmony's Investiture on Scadrial ?

In anyone practicing Allomancy, Feruchemy, or Hemalurgy, of course.  

[Yata he/him]

Just now, Landis963 said:

In anyone practicing Allomancy, Feruchemy, or Hemalurgy, of course.  

Yes..actually just in Scadrialan's Souls (that are "things" in a strictly PoV)  the rest is yet in Harmony's being/body/shard.
In the same way almost all the Adonalsium's Investiture that He didn't spend to made things was yet in Adonalsium....and now in the 16 Shards.

[Spoolofwhool]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

So the question would be, if you remove the perpendicularity and actually attive use of Investiture by Harmony. Where is Harmony's Investiture on Scadrial ?

Isn't it just in the spiritual realm, waiting to be used?

[Yata he/him]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Isn't it just in the spiritual realm, waiting to be used?

Yes I just wanted to point that it's useless to think that "you have to find Adonalsium's Investiture somewhere"

 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

Yes I just wanted to point that it's useless to think that "you have to find Adonalsium's Investiture somewhere"

 

Yes, that was what I was trying to point out earlier. The idea that it has to be connected to a physical location doesn't make much sense.

[Yata he/him]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes, that was what I was trying to point out earlier. The idea that it has to be connected to a physical location doesn't make much sense.

Well there may be some Vaults of Adonalsium's Investiture somewhere. But there is no actually need of them, there is no oddity if you don't find one or more of them (I had to be honest, until yesterday I thought that Roshar had one of this Vault...as Stormlight).

There is no "missing Investiture" in the Cosmere, The Shard got almost all the avaliable A's Investiture from what we know.

[Confused]

Your posts make me think I’ve been unclear. There IS magic on certain planets in the Cosmere – that’s indisputable. My only question is “who put it there?” Khriss assumes it all comes from the Shards. The OP questions that assumption.

If Stormlight started as Adonalsium Investiture, why not the Dor? Why not Taldain’s or Nalthis’ Investiture? I agree and accept that the Shards ALSO Invested on Major Shardworlds (by definition). I suggest, however, that Adonalsium’s Investiture – the Investiture that fuels Ambient Magic – may have been there first and may underlie the Shard-built magic systems.

If I understand you all, you have two main objections to that thought: (1) The Shards now hold all of Adonalsium’s Investiture; and (2) Adonalsium’s Investiture wouldn’t be located on any planet.

I anticipated the first objection in the OP’s paragraph “A.” I distinguish unused Investiture in the Spiritual Realm (that is now connected to the Shards) from Investiture Adonalsium already used, already Invested in the Cosmere. My OP only addresses magic like Stormlight, the Dor, etc., that’s already associated with a planet.

Can we all agree with the following premises? Investiture is the magical substance in the Cosmere. Investiture can be converted into matter and energy and other Investiture. Magic is “natural” in the Cosmere and augments our own universal “laws.”

From these premises, I argue that Adonalsium left more than just matter and energy on planets. On certain planets (at least), he left this “magical substance” – Investiture – that the local lifeforms could use as part of their ecosystem. It’s “natural” like fire, rain and wind. This Investiture is built into that planet’s “Essence” (which Shai describes as an object’s “soul”). This Investiture IS located on a planet because it’s already been Invested there, the Investiture is no longer exclusively in the Spiritual Realm.

I hope that clarifies – I just want to raise the possibility that not all planetary magic comes from the Shards. And that raises further possibilities about the nature and structure of magic systems.

@Yata:

Brandon says “people” were on Roshar before the Shattering. Humans were not. Human migration began after Honor and Cultivation arrived there. Brandon defines “people” as any sapient species. Listeners qualify as “people,” and they lived on Roshar pre-Shattering.

I also don’t see any contradiction between my OP paragraphs 4 and 5 – highstorms are a “natural” feature of Roshar that always brought Stormlight even before the Shards Invested in that planet.

Finally, I agree with your WoB, but it doesn’t make your point. The questioner asked if it was possible for a “gold/gold Twinborn” to “grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder.” Surgebinding requires a bond with a Radiantspren. Adonalsium did NOT create Radiantspren; Honor and Cultivation’s Investiture did, as you state. (I think the spren themselves actually created Radiantspren, using H & C’s Investiture, since Honor tells Dalinar that he was “surprised” the spren had “imitated” what he did with Honorblades.) Regardless of whose Investiture creates spren, the WoB does NOT address whose Investiture composes Stormlight.

@SpoolofWhool, in the entire AU, Khriss mentions Adonalsium exactly three times – twice when she describes “Shards of Adonalsium” and again in her conversation with Kelsier in M:SH. Other than having been the “God” that the Shards’ Vessels Shattered, she does not credit Adonalsium with anything in any of her essays and presumes that Shardworld magic comes from the Shards. 

*   *   *   *   *   *   *

A REQUEST: I’ve asked some of you to review the summary of my draft theory about Cosmere magic. Your review has already sparked several changes. If others would like to see that draft post, please let me know. I’ll create a group PM for us to discuss it together and will acknowledge you by name when I go public. Thanks in advance!

[Spoolofwhool]

Okay. That clarifies things. The OP gave me the impression that you were trying to find specific places for where Adonalsium's investiture went after the Shattering. If I understand you correctly now, you're rather theorizing that the underpinnings of a number of the manifestations of investiture on the major shardworlds are in part due to the presence of Adonalsium's investiture augmented with a shard's power, versus just entirely the shard's power. Fair enough.

I agree that this is possible. However, I can also agree that it isn't necessary to have a foundation of Adonalsium's power in order for a shard to create a manifestation of investiture. 

I would be interesting in seeing the summary of the draft theory.

[Yata he/him]

I am a bit @Confused (ok bad joke), did you read all the WoB ?
There are almost all the logical steps to point to Stormlight as H/C/H&C's Investiture:
- The overpowered Gold Twinborn can't create a Radiant Spren because the "investiture is from another god/shard" (in this case Preservation)

- But it's at least theorically possible using Progression Surge (fueled by an highstorm to remove the power level problem) instead of Feruchemical Gold.

- This would (probably) mean that Stormlight is from the same source/god/shard as Radiant Spren are.

- As you said Radiant Spren are made by a mix of H&C's Investiture, with the previous step we may conclude that probably (if we don't put strange exceptions) is made by the same Source.

If I made some incredible logical mystake please tell me where...because I see quite logic in what I wrote.

[JoModius]

Very interesting thread!

It actually raised one question in my mind that has never occurred to me before:

Did/Does Adonalsium have a perpendicularity?

I am not sure if he would have had one in the first place as creating one in the first place involves investing yourself in a localized position and as was mentioned previously Adonalsium spread out his investiture without heavily investing in any one location, at least not enough to create a legit magic system.

Now, of course the one notable exception to this may be Yolen, of which we know little and less.  There are magic systems present on Yolen (Yolish Lightweaving) which could mean that Adonalsium invested more heavily here and so if there is any place for an Uncle Andy Perpendicuarity, I believe it would be here.  However, I do not know if it can be confirmed that this magic system can even be solidly attributed to Adonalsium or if it could come from one of the other 'dead gods' that existed there.

At this point one might bring up that now that Adonalsium is shattered his perpendicularity (if it existed) may not exist anymore but I think we have precedent for this not being true.  We have WoB that splintering can be likened to a small-scale shattering and we have seen that shardpools remain from two deceased shards.  

- Honor has been splintered but his perpendicularity still exists (Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it is in the highstorm)
- More shakily, D&D are both deceased (though not splintered) but a shardpool still exists above Elantris.

The last candidate worth noting is Patji's eye.  We know this is a perpendicularity not attributed to any shard so it is our strongest proof for an Adonalsium perpendicularity.  I have a hard time believing that this could be THE Adonalsium perpendicularity though which leads me to wonder if Adonalsium was so powerful that he/she had more than one perpendicularity, something no other shard has been capable of to my understanding.

Anyway, that's the end of my pondering.  Let me know if I've forgotten any glaring inconsistencies!

  

[FiveLate]

20 minutes ago, JoModius said:

 

- More shakily, D&D are both deceased (though not splintered) but a shardpool still exists above Elantris.

D&D are both splintered and shoved into the cognitive realm.  

Speculation follows:

The fact that one shard pool exists indicates there should be two.

The shard pools would have have to form before the arrival of Odium most likely.

OR

The one and only shard pool formed from the Dor itself in Elantris for some reason.

Edited August 31, 2017 by FiveLate

[The One Who Connects he/him]

24 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

45 minutes ago, JoModius said:

- More shakily, D&D are both deceased (though not splintered) but a shardpool still exists above Elantris.

D&D are both splintered and shoved into the cognitive realm.  

Speculation follows:

The fact that one shard pool exists indicates there should be two.

The shard pools would have have to form before the arrival of Odium most likely.

OR

The one and only shard pool formed from the Dor itself in Elantris for some reason.

They should each have a Pool of their own. The Pools still exist because their Investiture is still there. It's not like D&D left the planet and took their Investiture with them, which would remove the pool if they took the time to fully Divest. (This is one of the reasons why Odium doesn't like staying in one place for too long. He either has to leave that invested power behind and be weak, or spend however long consolidating that power back into himself, leaving him vulnerable/distracted for a while)

[FiveLate]

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

They should each have a Pool of their own. The Pools still exist because their Investiture is still there. It's not like D&D left the planet and took their Investiture with them, which would remove the pool if they took the time to fully Divest. (This is one of the reasons why Odium doesn't like staying in one place for too long. He either has to leave that invested power behind and be weak, or spend however long consolidating that power back into himself, leaving him vulnerable/distracted for a while)

Actually, I was saying if Odium shattered them early enough, they might not have been invested enough in the planet to each have their own shard pool.

It is like...If Ruin and Preservation had been merged before they had formed pools, would harmony only form 1?

Edited August 31, 2017 by FiveLate

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, FiveLate said:

Actually, I was saying if Odium shattered them early enough, they might not have been invested enough in the planet to each have their own shard pool.

Oh. Misread you I guess. It.... could work, but I doubt it, mostly because that means the one and only pool just happened to form near the same place that they built Elantris.

Feels too convenient for my taste, but who knows.

[FiveLate]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh. Misread you I guess. It.... could work, but I doubt it, mostly because that means the one and only pool just happened to form near the same place that they built Elantris.

Feels too convenient for my taste, but who knows.

Yup was my thought too, but there is nothing to discount it.

 

[JoModius]

They've never brought up a second shard pool but there is a lot of Sel we've never seen, including that third mysterious empire.

We also don't know how much D&D had intermingled prior to being killed by Odium.  They were said to be lovers and worked very closely, perhaps they worked closely enough that their essence pooled in the same spot in the physical realm.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 9/1/2017 at 10:07 AM, JoModius said:

We also don't know how much D&D had intermingled prior to being killed by Odium.  They were said to be lovers and worked very closely, perhaps they worked closely enough that their essence pooled in the same spot in the physical realm.

I don't like the idea that non-combined Shards could have a combined Shardpool.

• Odium killed Aona and Skai, meaning that both vessels were alive when he showed up. Had they merged into Unity/Benevolence/etc.., there should only be one Holder, meaning only one of them for Odium to kill.
• Additionally, they have distinct splinters: Seons and Skaze. I feel that if they combined enough to have a merged pool, they should have a merged type of Splinter.

You could still be right, but it doesn't feel right. Either way, Elantris 2 is supposed to be in Fjordell and delve into the Dakhor, so we may learn the truth there.

[Thanatos]

Just because a shard is shatteted does not mean the shard pool disappears.

The shard is still there, the power is still there, it just can't be held by someone anymore. 

[ForcesOfNoodles]

I'm actually working on a theory where aluminum is actually really heavily Invested as a remnant from Adonalsium, and that's how it blocks Investiture.

It destroying metal when burned could be explained by the fact that Preservation chose all the Allomantic abilities.

It kinda falls apart once you realize that it can be Soulcasted though.

[Pattern he/him]

I am quite sure there is a WoB that the highstorms were on Roshar before the coming of Honor and Cultivation but that they were filled with Stormlight later. Adonalsium's Investiture (that what he/she/it left in the system) can be found as splinters, Adonalsium-spren. Also somewhere the energy for the Highstorms themselves have to come from. This mechanism could also be originated from Adonalsium's Investiture. Or just "natural" weather patterns, as the time of the weeping is related to the orbital position of Roshar.

Spoiler

Interview: Dec 3rd, 2016

Little City Books-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

Mason Wheeler

OK. Now, the Weeping that happens each year on Roshar, does that occur each time when the 3 moons are in a particular alignment?

Brandon Sanderson

no, it's more related to the planet's orbital position than the moons' position.

The symbiosis between spren and the fauna of Roshar does not necessarily need Stormlight, as it also upholds during the weeping when all Stormlight reserves have run out. The Nahel bond also still exists in absence of Stormlight.

Parshendi going out into the storms to change their forms is possibly not related to the Stormlight in there but to the presence of many spren in the Highstorms. Before the arrival of the Shards on Roshar, those would have been Adonalsium spren only, now there are also mixed spren of Honor and Cultivation (for example the masses of windspren riding the Highstorm in WoR). As far as I know, the spren doing symbiosis are mainly lesser spren who don't really realize what happens when they are caught in a gemheart. It's part of their natural life cycle. Of course with Odium riding the Everstorm and the voidspren on Roshar once more, it won't be lesser spren only anymore.

Back to the main topic. I guess most of Adonalsiums Investiture went into the Shards, that is all of the Investiture that hasn't been left behind on one or the other planet. With the individual Intent of each shard this Investiture got another type of flavour for each Shard, so it cannot be called Adonalsium's Investiture anymore. Remnants of Adonalsium's Investiture can be found as Adonalsium spren on Roshar (possibly the ancient spren facilitating the Parshendi transformation) or as ambient magic on lesser shardworlds like First of the Sun and Threnody. Since not all shardpools/perpendicularities are associated with a Shard, those which are not should still be caused by a greater gathering of Investiture. This then can only be Adonalsium's Investiture.

Additionally, should Adonalsium have left behind a bigger chunk of free Investiture, it should have gained sentience by now and might not be recognizable as "of Adonalsium" anymore.

Like Roshar, all planets predating the shattering of Adonalsium could have some remnants of that Investiture, during rereads one could look for stuff that does not fit properly into the respective Shard's magic system. No examples come to my mind right now.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Pattern