theory The Red Eyed Immortals on Scadrial

[VirtuousTraveller]

The general consensus about the force coming at Scadrial is either Odium or Autonomy.  Here's an alternate idea:

The red haze Sazed showed Wax and red-eyed faceless immortals are related to The Evil that caused havoc on Threnody.

Support for this idea:

In MB: SH we see there being a connection in the Cognitive Realm via the Ire that the Threnodites may be coming toward Scadrial.  Three hundred years later, perhaps The Evil made its way from Threnody to Scadrial (or almost to Scadrial) and is causing trouble there.  It seems like a weird coincidence that Brandon mentions the Threnodites at all in MB: SH, unless there's a connection to the story.  Miles Hundredlives was under the influence of something.  Since SH shows the Ire (most likely from Sel) and a risk of Threnodites, to me the something would be related to one of these places.

If the red haze/red-eyed faceless immortals are influenced by something from Sel, to me it's likely related to the Svrakiss.  Interesting idea though, what if the reason the Ire are so worried about something coming from Threnody is because they know the Svrakiss came from there in the first place?

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From the Coppermind:

The Svrakiss are the souls of men barred from entrance into heaven for hating Jaddeth in life, and so are condemned to wander Sel, bitterly cursing their fate and preying on the living.

Quote

From the Elantris Glossary (on Brandon's website):

A Svordish concept integrated into the Derethi Religion. The Svrakiss are beings forbidden entrance to heaven. They are forced to wander the world, preying on the living. They are half-ghost, half-demon, in the Derethi religion, and are often used to represent all that is evil.

Sounds awfully similar to shades to me (with cultural references added in to make it religious).  Not that they're the exact same thing, but similar.

Whatever The Evil was/is, it created an issue with the afterlife on Threnody, which is why shades float around everywhere.  This could be a result of The Evil's ability to put a barrier in the Cognitive Realm, preventing souls from moving on to the Great Beyond.  The red-eyed faceless immortal that speaks with Suit at the end of BoM says that he can "serve in another realm."  Perhaps The Evil is starting the same kinds of mischief that it caused on Threnody.

Disclaimer:  It is completely possible that Odium was The Evil on Threnody, but I find it very unlikely that Autonomy was.

Let the story overlapping begin!  It's beginning to look a lot like cosmere! =)

Edited November 16, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Spoolofwhool]

Interesting idea. Someone did in fact ask Brandon if Miles had been affected by a Svrakiss at the end, which is what caused his "death-rattle". That was RAFOed.

It is a good thought that the Evil caused the phenomenon of shades and is now on Scadrial. However, since the Evil is not shard-based, I don't think it is related to what is happening on Scadrial, since that is clearly shard-based.

[Khyrindor]

@Spoolofwhool What makes you say it isn't Shard-based?

[Jondesu]

4 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

@Spoolofwhool What makes you say it isn't Shard-based?

Probably because we have (mostly?) confirmation that there is no Shard on Threnody.  It's possible it could be related to a Shard somewhere else, but that would seem to be fairly unlikely based on what we've seen previously (though it's been speculated that there was one on Threnody at some point in the past, who has now moved on to a different location).

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

@Spoolofwhool What makes you say it isn't Shard-based?

WoB. 

Quote

SWEETNESS

Since the evil on Threnody isn't a Shard, can you tell us anything about its actual nature? Is it an actual being, and is it related to Adonalsium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Everything is related to Adonalsium in the Cosmere, most of the magic you're seeing is a just a natural outgrowth of Cosmere related magic and cognitive shadows. The Evil is similarly related.

[Source]

While he doesn't specifically say so here, he appears to be agreeing with the questioner statement that it isn't, and is just, in some other ways, related to Adonalsium.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Khyrindor]

Could be a giant spren-type? Like a sentient bit of Investiture that isn't really from a Shard, but from Adonalsium?

[VirtuousTraveller]

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BRANDON SANDERSON

It's called Threnody, it is one of the Cosmere worlds. There's not a Shard there but there are interesting things happening.

 

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BRANDON SANDERSON

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science.

 

I would agree that Threnody does not have a shard on it and that the "magic" we see on the planet (if you can call it that) is not shard based from the information we have in these two WoBs.  I don't know that I'd agree that this means a shard couldn't have been the cause of the issues with the shades though.  Odium never invested on Sel, but the results of his actions definitely were felt there.

I have a feeling that there's way more to The Evil than we yet know.  Obviously it wasn't a shard that opposed Adonalisum in the first place, nor was it a shard that shattered it.

[Spoolofwhool]

10 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I would agree that Threnody does not have a shard on it and that the "magic" we see on the planet (if you can call it that) is not shard based from the information we have in these two WoBs.  I don't know that I'd agree that this means a shard couldn't have been the cause of the issues with the shades though.  Odium never invested on Sel, but the results of his actions definitely were felt there.

There is still the fact that it seems fairly clear from WoB that the Evil is not a shard, and seems to be implied that it isn't related to a shard either. 

11 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I have a feeling that there's way more to The Evil than we yet know.  Obviously it wasn't a shard that opposed Adonalisum in the first place, nor was it a shard that shattered it.

Could you rephrase the second sentence? At the moment it seems very redundant as obviously no shard opposed nor shattered Adonalsium since none existed at that time, unless you're referring to the original vessels when you say shard. 

[VirtuousTraveller]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Could you rephrase the second sentence? At the moment it seems very redundant as obviously no shard opposed nor shattered Adonalsium since none existed at that time, unless you're referring to the original vessels when you say shard. 

I was just affirming what you were saying - assuming The Evil is not a shard or the influence of a shard, there exists somewhere in the cosmere something that opposed Adonalsium in the first place.  It wasn't a shard of Adonalsium that opposed Adonalsium (duh) and it wasn't a shard of Adonalsium that shattered Adonalsium (double duh).  

Something powerful, maybe even more powerful than a shard, maybe even as powerful as Adonalsium itself, still exists.  Perhaps this is The Evil.

[Yata]

 

The Evil may be a group or an being pretty physical who did thinghs on Therenody for his own agenda with or without connection with the Adonalsium's opposition (it may be also the Ire who think that a Shadow od Therenody manage to ruin their plan and wanted revenge)

PS: Remember that the famous WoB about the "force aganist Adonalsium" may refer also at the 16 Vessels who killed him.

[Mason Wheeler]

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Interesting idea. Someone did in fact ask Brandon if Miles had been affected by a Svrakiss at the end, which is what caused his "death-rattle". That was RAFOed.

Maybe I wasn't the only one to ask this, but I asked Brandon a few years ago, something like this:

Q: It appears that the death rattle phenomenon began at right about the same time as Szeth killed the king.

A: Yes.

Q: What he said there at the end, about having to find the most important words a man can speak--that's really cryptic and weird.  Were those actually his own words, or did they come from somewhere else?

A: No, those were actually his own words.

Q: OK.  Now, we've got some concepts that seem to cross worlds.

A: Yeah...

Q: When Miles died, he had some really cryptic stuff he said there.  Was that really him speaking, or someone else?

A: Oh, that's a good question.  Gonna have to RAFO that one.

I didn't ask anything about Svrakiss specifically, though.

[VirtuousTraveller]

As we've brought up Miles, perhaps The Evil is Trell?  I hope we get some insight into these things in AU!

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Maybe I wasn't the only one to ask this, but I asked Brandon a few years ago, something like this:

Q: It appears that the death rattle phenomenon began at right about the same time as Szeth killed the king.

A: Yes.

Q: What he said there at the end, about having to find the most important words a man can speak--that's really cryptic and weird.  Were those actually his own words, or did they come from somewhere else?

A: No, those were actually his own words.

Q: OK.  Now, we've got some concepts that seem to cross worlds.

A: Yeah...

Q: When Miles died, he had some really cryptic stuff he said there.  Was that really him speaking, or someone else?

A: Oh, that's a good question.  Gonna have to RAFO that one.

I didn't ask anything about Svrakiss specifically, though.

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QUESTION

Miles Hundredlives, is he possessed by a svrakiss from Elantris?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*long pause* That's a RAFO, you are onto something... I wouldn't say possessed, but influenced by something is definitely a possibility. You are not 100% on.

[Source]

Basically, all Brandon said was that those words at the end were not his, but we basically knew that already.

[VirtuousTraveller]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Basically, all Brandon said was that those words at the end were not his, but we basically knew that already.

That's right.  The WoBs you shared make me think of three possible liklihoods:

1.  Miles' last words were a "death rattle" (also seen on Roshar, known to be influenced by Moelach, an unmade, splinter of Odium).

2.  Miles' last words were the result of possession by a svrakiss (also seen on Sel, viewed as half-ghost, half-demon spirits who were not allowed into heaven, according to Shi-Dereth, though the word is of Svordish origin).  The svrakiss could also be related to Odium or as a result of his splintering activity on Sel. They seem unrelated to the skaze, Jaddeth, or Dominion (as they sound more like something of legend and myth, not so much official church teaching).

3.  Miles' last words were the result of the influence of The Evil (powerful force that caused trouble on Threnody, a system that has some cognitive proximity to Scadrial and Sel, according to the Ire's worries in MB: SH).  It's also possible that The Evil is Odium, but unlikely considering it seems more like a non-shardic force.

Edited November 17, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

That's right.  The WoBs you shared make me think of three possible liklihoods:

1.  Miles' last words were a "death rattle" (also seen on Roshar, known to be influenced by Moelach, an unmade, splinter of Odium).

2.  Miles' last words were the result of possession by a svrakiss (also seen on Sel, viewed as half-ghost, half-demon spirits who were not allowed into heaven, according to Shi-Dereth, though the word is of Svordish origin).  The svrakiss could also be related to Odium or as a result of his splintering activity on Sel. They seem unrelated to the skaze, Jaddeth, or Dominion (as they sound more like something of legend and myth, not so much official church teaching).

3.  Miles' last words were the result of the influence of The Evil (powerful force that caused trouble on Threnody, a system that has some cognitive proximity to Scadrial and Sel, according to the Ire's worries in MB: SH).  It's also possible that The Evil is Odium, but unlikely considering it seems more like a non-shardic force.

These are possible. I doubt it's from Roshar though. We know Moelach is regionally-bound in its influence, so for it to be affecting Miles, it would have to be on Scadrial.

Result of the Evil is possible, though we know so little about it, so really anything goes at this point. 

Brandon said he wouldn't consider it a possession. Odium doesn't have any power on Sel though so whatever Svrakiss are would probably be of Dominion or Devotion, some other splinter perhaps. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

It should be noted that at one point Threnodians may have chosen to become Shades. The evil may have been an event that caused those Shades to become badly warped.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

I'm still working through the particulars, but I'm building a theory that the Evil mentioned on Threnody is the Cognitive Shadow of Adonalsium, perhaps warped by the Shattering.

[VirtuousTraveller]

7 minutes ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

I'm still working through the particulars, but I'm building a theory that the Evil mentioned on Threnody is the Cognitive Shadow of Adonalsium, perhaps warped by the Shattering.

I'm really interested in the star chart and introductory essay for Threnody.  I think this, more than anything, is the ripest ground for new cosmere-wide information.  We know the littlest about it, and yet it seems to have major implications for a lot of things - I look forward to seeing your thoughts when they come together! =)

[Nebelskind]

19 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It should be noted that at one point Threnodians may have chosen to become Shades. The evil may have been an event that caused those Shades to become badly warped.

I remembered this from Secret History:

"One doesn't merely decide to become a shadow!" the man [Nazh] exclaimed... "It's an important rite! With requirements and traditions."

I have this thought that Nazh is supposed to be from Threnody...right? Maybe? If so, maybe he's referring to the shades here, which kind of makes it seem like you're right.

Or else it's something very similar, which still supports the idea that you can choose to become a Cognitive Shadow on some worlds. I really like the idea of the Evil changing this, though, since that fits with some of the theories about Odium and the Tranquiline Halls. I think that initially the Evil wasn't related to the shades though, at least in the minds of the Threnodians who fled the Homeland; they seemed to already know that the new land would have spirits (hence why they called it "hell")

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Nazh is from Threnody. That's why I suggested it may once have been a choice, based on his statement there. Thanks for looking up the quote.

[Weltall]

It's possible that when Brandon said Miles was 'influenced by something' it was as simple as him knowing something we don't, some tiny detail about the Set's plans that he figured out, and he was trying to warn people what was coming. His last words fit neatly into what we later learn about how the Set is working on behalf of Trell in a plan that they expect to take decades or centuries. 'Worship Trell and wait' fits with that and the possibility of being influenced by something leaves a lot of wiggle room for what Brandon actually means.

Now, the 'men of gold and red' bit is rather less clear, as is the 'final metal'. The latter could be Harmonium which was later revealed to be A Thing, ot ir could somehow relate to the mystery godmetal seen in Paalm's spikes.

[cometaryorbit]

On 11/17/2016 at 6:44 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Nazh is from Threnody. That's why I suggested it may once have been a choice, based on his statement there. Thanks for looking up the quote.

Maybe Nazh left Threnody before the shades became a problem, when Cognitive Shadows were still a rare special ritual thing rather than a plague?

According to Coppermind's chronology, "Shadows for Silence" is relatively late in the Cosmere timeline but before Stormlight Archive.

Silence is 2nd generation born in the Forests (her grandmother was one of the first settlers, IIRC). Given that she's probably between 35 and 50 (her daughter is 14 according to Coppermind), and assuming that her grandmother moved to the Forests as a relatively young adult, the migration to the Forests was probably something like 65-90 years ago.

Now, as Nebelskind points out, the shades were apparently known before the migration. But if "Shadows for Silence" is say 50 years before Stormlight, that's still almost 300 years after the first Mistborn trilogy, and we know from "Secret History" that Nazh was off Threnody then. So the origin of shades could still be after Nazh left Threnody.

say something like (very speculative)

0 Hero of Ages / Nazh shows up in Scadrial's Cognitive

0-100? Shade problems start

170? Evil attacks, Migration from Homeland to Forests

250? "Shadows for Silence"

~330? Stormlight

341 Alloy

[VirtuousTraveller]

Arcanum Unbounded Spoilers

Spoiler

Fortunately I have personal access to someone from Threnody, the third planet in the system. Judging by the records that Nazh has provided, I have concluded that some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards. However, the waves of destruction— carrying ripped-off chunks of Ambition’s power— twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody.

From the Threnody essay, Arcanum Unbounded

 

Spoiler

I would say that we can now rule out Odium as the identity of The Evil on Threnody, however based on Kriss's description above, perhaps it is a splinter that has gained sentience?  Mindless ambition strikes me as something that could easily consume everything around it.

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Nebelskind]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:42 AM, VirtuousTraveller said:

Arcanum Unbounded Spoilers

  Hide contents

Fortunately I have personal access to someone from Threnody, the third planet in the system. Judging by the records that Nazh has provided, I have concluded that some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards. However, the waves of destruction— carrying ripped-off chunks of Ambition’s power— twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody.

From the Threnody essay, Arcanum Unbounded

 

  Hide contents

I would say that we can now rule out Odium as the identity of The Evil on Threnody, however based on Kriss's description above, perhaps it is a splinter that has gained sentience?  Mindless ambition strikes me as something that could easily consume everything around it.

 

I agree completely; that's actually a pretty cool thought. Like the Stormfather, but less Honor-able. One of those running loose would definitely be able to cause some havoc in multiple Realms.

[Full Metal Rithmatist]

Does harmony not say he doesnt know what the thing surrounding Scadrial is ? if it was odium i think hed know.