Do Radiants die of old age?

[xianpoxi]

This is actually a questions chain that leads to more interesting questions/speculation.

Radiants all appear to experience growth and regrowth thru stormlight. If the regeneration is so perfect, does it affect aging?  Does it slow it or stop it? 

If not, what happens to bonded spren when their Radiant dies?

Did Syl say "If you die, I go stupid again" ?  I don't remember accurately if I read this or not.

Either way there are a few possibilities that come to mind.

1. Yes, when a Radiant dies, the bond is lost and the spren loses its benefits. 

2. The bond is passed on to a successor

3. The spren dies, like the recreance.

 

I rather think that 1 and 2 are both likely.

Pattern said that spren are too static, that they always change in the same ways over and over.

 

However, there is also a difference in Pattern's description of the recreance and Syl's memories.  Pattern says that all the bonded spren were killed save a few like the stormfather. Syl doesn't seem to match Pattern's scenario.

However, Syl's vague memories in WoK often imply she was part of a Nahel bond before. Was she not bonded during the recreance? or did she survive it somehow?  I think she was unbonded, but I think she has been part of the bond before. I would also think that many spren and radiants would desire to keep the spren sentient after they pass away, and try to arrange for a successor if possible. I'll go hunt WoB for any hints, but wondering if anyone already has info or thoughts on this.

 

 

[galendo]

I'm pretty certain 1) is the correct scenario.  As you note, Syl says that she'll go stupid again if Kaladin dies.

I don't see any particular reason why Stormlight would halt aging, though.  If I understand correctly, Stormlight restores a person to what they think of as their natural state (or something like that), but I don't think there's anyone who really thinks they're twenty years old forever.  Aging is a natural part of life for everyone, even Radiants, so Radiants should age just like everyone else.  They might age more gracefully, sure -- think the active, marathon-running seventy year-old, not the bedridden one -- but I can't think of any particular reason why they should stop aging entirely.

[Eki]

It seems like the soul has an age in the Cosmere, so Radiants probably do age, even if they are resistant to injuries and diseases.

However, there are methods in the Cosmere that actually do seem to slow down or halt the aging of the soul. The Nahel bond might be one of those.

Regarding spren, I think 1), but it might be a gradual process. A spren whose Knight dies probably wants to rebond with someone else as quickly as possible, so they don't lose too many memories. But they're also grieving, so who knows. We know it isn't 3), at least.

What Pattern says, if I recall correctly, isn't that almost all bonded spren died. I think he says that almost all spren with minds died. So we don't know if the only ones to survive were the unbonded ones, if some actually survived their Knight's oathbreaking, or even if some Knights (other than the subterfuging Order) never did abandon their oaths, and died natural (or unnatural) deaths.

[xianpoxi]

6 minutes ago, Eki said:

 

Wow, I'm a noob at this forum tool, didn't mean to quote Eki at all.. can't quite figure how to delete the quote box..

I found this in WoB

Quote

Q:  What is the effect of the Nahel Bond on human lifespan.
A:  RAFO.

The suspicion about Stormlight or the Nahel bond affecting age for me is more from scifi/medical theories about aging. Our cells do not copy well. they deteriorate. So each cell is less perfect than the one before and after so many iterations, the body breaks down. meaning taking alot of injuries throughout life will age you faster.

However, Stormlight not only is healing them from anything but being brain-dead, but also regenerating body parts.  The comment about how you see yourself is a good point and often said in WoB. So again... If you see yourself as young, wouldn't it keep you young?

I do not at all doubt that some people see themselves as eternally in there 20's. The phenomena of a "Mid-life crisis" is all about the disillusionment of this belief. Sadeas describes exactly that perspective in WoR also.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by xianpoxi

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, Stormlight healing won't keep you young for the same reason that (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

compounding feruchemical gold doesn't, and TLR had to compound more and more atium to stay alive as he got older.

OTOH, Elantrians don't seem to age, and people with the Fifth Heightening don't, so being highly-Invested can do that.

[xianpoxi]

I found another pertinent WoB

Quote

Q:  We were talking that it's kind of a shame that Dalinar doesn't have his own "real" spren. I think it's an upgrade, is there a way I should think of this? Is it a cool thing or a bad thing?
A:  It's a cool thing, it's also a very dangerous thing.
Q:  Well [the Stormfather] controls the highstorms...follow-up question: if he dies, does that affect the spren?
A:  Dying, as long as the oaths are not broken, does not affect the spren in a very terrible way. There are effects.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

Stormlight regrowth and (Mistborn spoiler)

Spoiler

Feruchemcal Gold

don't prevent aging probably because they are based on cognitive. Most people cognitively view themselves as aging over the course of their life. As such,  neitherStormlight nor the other method would be able to repair changes from age because people see those changes as being a part of them, much in the same that Kaladin sees his slave brand as being a part of him such that he cannot heal it with stormlight, while rejecting the tattoo which would cover it.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[BrightVoid]

Of course, we have Lift who thinks that she is "this many".  It helps to believe you are young when you can't count past 10 

[Yata]

Maybe the Nahel Bond may do something to the RK's lifespan  but it's not the Healing propriety of Stormlight who are relevant in this case.

Your Spiritweb (or Soul) "knows" how old are you thanks to the Connections to the times of your life. If you manage to not age or revert aging your Soul will notice a difference between yourself and "how you have to be" and press yourself to re-allign with your rightful self. This effect may be countered with Investiture but more your actual self and your spiritual self are different more Investiture you will need....But in the end you will revert to your real age in the moment you are without Investiture (and if you are beyond your lifespan...you die).

This of course IF Stormlight's Healing is really capable of age reverting or stopping....But as someone before said, "Healing" in Cosmere is more "restore my Cognitive's image of myself"...It's the reason for some oddities with Stormlight's Healing....For example Kaladin's Scar doesn't heal because Kal see himself as a Slave and in his mental Image...The Scars are part of him.

 

Anyway this doesn't meant (as said at the beginning) that Nahel Bond don't affect Lifespan....But if it does, it's not something related to Stormlight's Healing

[Eki]

12 minutes ago, Yata said:

But in the end you will revert to your real age in the moment you are without Investiture (and if you are beyond your lifespan...you die).

I'm not so sure about this. (Warbreaker and Mistborn HoA spoilers)

Spoiler

If you have enough Breaths to become ageless, I don't think you "revert" to your real age if you ever lose them. I think there is a fundamental difference between, say, atium compounding, and the Fifth Heightening.

I like to think of it as the difference between constantly rewinding a cassette tape as it plays (atium compounding), and pausing it (Fifth Heightening).

The first one will strain the tape, damaging it over time. In other words, your soul is aging all the time, but you keep temporarily reverting it over and over.

But the second one just pauses the process in some way, so that the soul doesn't actually age.

I think the only old person we know to have lost the Fifth Heightening is Vasher, while he is suppressing his Divine Breath. But he's such a special case that it's hard to draw any conclusions about how things normally work.

 

[Yata]

4 minutes ago, Eki said:

I'm not so sure about this. (Warbreaker and Mistborn HoA spoilers)

Yeah I know but probably the method you write work with another principle, maybe changing the Connection or something like that....I proposed the model of the Youth manipulation and Healing as comparative with the Stormlight's Healing because they are very similar.

It's the reason at the end of the post I said it's possible that a Nahel Bond does something to your Lifespan but for an effect different of Stormlight's healing. We saw in other series being functionally Immortal....therefore is some way is possible to achieve an infinite lifespan throught magic

[Eki]

8 minutes ago, Yata said:

Yeah I know but probably the method you write work with another principle, maybe changing the Connection or something like that....I proposed the model of the Youth manipulation and Healing as comparative with the Stormlight's Healing because they are very similar.

It's the reason at the end of the post I said it's possible that a Nahel Bond does something to your Lifespan but for an effect different of Stormlight's healing. We saw in other series being functionally Immortal....therefore is some way is possible to achieve an infinite lifespan throught magic

Right. I was mostly replying to your comment about how soul aging works, rather than your argument about the Nahel bond in particular.

[Oversleep]

Anyway we can quite safely assume that simple Stormlight/Regrowth healing won't stop aging. Case in point: Miles, the ever-healing man with infinite (for practical purposes) storages of health was aging normally.

[+hwiles]

10 hours ago, Eki said:

I'm not so sure about this. (Warbreaker and Mistborn HoA spoilers)

  Hide contents

If you have enough Breaths to become ageless, I don't think you "revert" to your real age if you ever lose them. I think there is a fundamental difference between, say, atium compounding, and the Fifth Heightening.

I like to think of it as the difference between constantly rewinding a cassette tape as it plays (atium compounding), and pausing it (Fifth Heightening).

The first one will strain the tape, damaging it over time. In other words, your soul is aging all the time, but you keep temporarily reverting it over and over.

But the second one just pauses the process in some way, so that the soul doesn't actually age.

I think the only old person we know to have lost the Fifth Heightening is Vasher, while he is suppressing his Divine Breath. But he's such a special case that it's hard to draw any conclusions about how things normally work.

 

An important point to add to this: breaths deteriorate over time. A person at the fifth (or even 10th) heightening would eventually age if they never accepted a new breath. This is actually completely intuitive, as it prevents lifeless hamsters running on wheels from generating infinite energy on Nalthis.

Spren do not appear to be subject to aging (at least, we have no evidence that they age in the conventional sense). If the part of a Radiant's spirit Web which is filled by their spren is immune to aging, and also in possession of its own independent cognitive identity, then I see no reason for a radiant to not be theoretically biologically immortal, provided they never ran out of stormlight. I'd posit that while they hold stormlight, they don't age, but as soon as they run out, the clock begins ticking again, though possibly still at a reduced rate. Between Desolations and weepings, it would be difficult for a radiant to last as long as a returned like Vasher, though its probably technically possible.

[Yata]

@hwiles well The more "Spren-like" Human we saw (Lift) still regular age. She is struck nearest than any mortal in the Cognitive Realm so close to the Spren ,Bonds with one of them and with the ability to turn any nutriment in Stormlight...But She still age

[Eki]

(Warbreaker spoilers)

Spoiler

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

An important point to add to this: breaths deteriorate over time. A person at the fifth (or even 10th) heightening would eventually age if they never accepted a new breath. This is actually completely intuitive, as it prevents lifeless hamsters running on wheels from generating infinite energy on Nalthis.

We only know of deteriorating breaths in awakened things, not when they are held by a living person, I think. And even though you are right about the hamsters (since they are awakened things, and their breath will deteriorate), when magic is involved, there are no rules that stop infinite energy from being produced.

 

2 hours ago, Yata said:

@hwiles well The more "Spren-like" Human we saw (Lift) still regular age. She is struck nearest than any mortal in the Cognitive Realm so close to the Spren ,Bonds with one of them and with the ability to turn any nutriment in Stormlight...But She still age

Lift has only had her bond for a few months, so we don't actually know for sure if she ages.

Also (again, Warbreaker spoilers),

Spoiler

Returned age until they are adults. We don't actually know what happens if a normal child gains the Fifth Heightening...

But I do think you are right, and that Lift does age.

I think the true answer is that Radiants age like anyone else, but that they are healthier, and thus live longer. In normal humans, age never really kills: the breakdown of DNA and other issues that come with age lead to diseases that the body can't stop, and those are the ones that kill the person in the end. But the soul ages, and we don't really know what that means, exactly.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Eki said:

Lift has only had her bond for a few months, so we don't actually know for sure if she ages.

Edgedancer novella spoiler

Spoiler

We have confirmation in the excerpt of the novella Brandon has released that Lift is aging physically, when Wyndle referencies Lift having her first period. 

 

[Eki]

17 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Edgedancer novella spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

We have confirmation in the excerpt of the novella Brandon has released that Lift is aging physically, when Wyndle referencies Lift having her first period. 

 

Hadn't read that excerpt! I think Edgedancer is the story I'm most looking forward to in Arcanum Unbounded.

[Argel]

Well, Shallan had her bond at a ridiculously young age before losing it (or almost losing it) when her mother was killed and we have no hints she stopped aging/maturing. Supposedly Renarin has been bonded longer than we think, and it looks like Jasnah bonded either the night of her fathers assassination or shortly thereafter (recall that she enters Shadesmar). If Jasnah stopped aging for 6 years you would think it might start to stand out. Though I could see the case being made that it would be attributed to her stunning beauty.

But in Sci-Fi/Fantasy, sometimes stuff that stops aging does so immediately, and you find 1000 year old beings that still look like a little kid. Other times,  it does not prevent the being from growing to maturity.  The former sounds more like Young Adult material, so I am not sure Brandon will go that route with a Cosmere magic system -- Lift's situation is probably good enough to cover some of those tropes (speculation is she is maturing physically but has not matured mentally -- sounds like she should have phrased her wish to the Nightwatcher better).

8 hours ago, Eki said:

Hadn't read that excerpt! I think Edgedancer is the story I'm most looking forward to in Arcanum Unbounded.

Well, considering it's the only new story....

Edited October 13, 2016 by Argel

[Eki]

2 minutes ago, Argel said:

Well, considering it's the only new story....

Not to me. I haven't read any of the short stories, or even The Emperor's Soul. Not to mention the planet introductions by Khriss, which are also new.

I was planning on getting to them earlier, but then the collection was announced, so it felt a bit unnecessary to buy them separately.

[+hwiles]

10 hours ago, Eki said:

(Warbreaker spoilers)

  Hide contents

We only know of deteriorating breaths in awakened things, not when they are held by a living person, I think. And even though you are right about the hamsters (since they are awakened things, and their breath will deteriorate), when magic is involved, there are no rules that stop infinite energy from being produced.

It's actually been confirmed that the Breath of a child is generally more potent (is more magically significant) than that of an adult, which is why the Returned gods exclusively feed on the breath of the young.  It's possible that if a person has two Breaths, each Breath might "age" or "deteriorate" one at a time, but we really just don't know enough to say yet; I think Vasher indicates near the end of Warbreaker that he carried some number of Breaths more or less continuously for several centuries, so who knows what's going on there.

Kinda nitpicky I know...

[Eki]

2 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Kinda nitpicky I know...

That's true. I had forgotten about that. I looked at the annotations for that chapter, and the word Brandon uses is "vigorous". So I'm not sure what that means in terms of Investiture.