Long Game 25: A Breath of Power

[Metacognition]

Maybe. But, with everything else, I think it's a safe assumption to make. 

[Frozen Mint]

2 hours ago, Magestar said:

I think the best person to vote on right now would be Frozen Mint, partially because I think they are the least active of my suspicions, partially because I feel like voting on someone right now, to spark some discussion, seeing as so few people are, and partially because of Araris. If @Frozen Mint can provide a decent argument against this, I'll switch to Mark.

The suspicions that backed up my vote on day 1 were weak. But like I said in that post, I decided to vote for someone because I thought lynching would help us gather information. My suspicions of you were weak, but they were stronger than my suspicions of anyone else. 

As for not being as active, this is my first game. I'm trying to contribute, but I'm also hesitant since I don't know the playing field well.

[Straw]

Here are three points I would like to make.

1. There can be multiple winners to the lottery. Every time I have entered the lottery, I have won.

2. FrozenMint seems fairly innocent.

3. I think that the village should watch Ecthelion, Magestar, and AliasSheep closely.

 

[Magestar]

Huh.  Well, while that does not entirely allay my suspicions of you, I'll move to Mark, because he is next on my list, and because he seems like a likely target right now.

Straw, do you mind terribly backing up why Ecth, Alias, and I should be watched closely?  I partially understand myself, because of the apparently lingering ill feeling towards me, and the elim read I apparently give off, but I wonder why you suspect the others.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Magestar

[Straw]

We should watch Ecthelion for the reasons you put, AliasSheep is just a gut read.

[Magestar]

Oh.  I edit'd out those reasons a bit before you posted.  'Cause paranoia.  Sorry.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Magestar

[Ecthelion III]

Rox received his reply by a nearly identical strawman the next morning: "Ten o'clock. One unit northnorthwest of the usual spot." Rox smiled. That man and his paranoia.

When nine-thirty came around, Rox departed in shadow. His job as a spy was complete, and with luck, he could make it to the designated location without being caught up to by the boss--no, the former boss.

Luck was not in his favor.

Rox put up a good fight, but in the end, he caved to the sheer number of the woman's other guards and personal warriors.

"Well, well, well," the woman said. "Look what we have here. A deserter. You know I cannot allow this."

Rox struggled against his captors. "I'll just give you my Breath. I've heard it's less painful that way."

"You have already lost your chance to go painlessly, living or otherwise." The woman procured a dagger from her cloak. Rox's eyes widened. The dagger hit.

Pain. Pain and blackness. As Rox faded into final unconsciousness, he could vaguely make out the woman standing over him with a stone. Her lips moved, but no sound came out.

Darkness.

Darkness.

       *                      *                    *

Light.

Rox cracked open an eye. All was light.

Was this... was this... heaven? He assumed so, given the marked absence of infernal pits of flame and agony.

And then he heard a voice. A gruff voice. "Rough life, you know that?"

Rox opened the other eye. More light streamed in. "Vasher? Is that... is that you?"

The voice spoke again. "It's me, all right."

"Not to be rude or anything," Rox said, "but I didn't exactly imagine you, well, here. After all the things you've done."

"What do you mean, here?"

"Well, you weren't exactly the most--what's the word--righteous person back in your lifetime."

"What are you talking about, Rox? Do you have a hole in your brain as well as in your chest?"

Rox strained to open his eyes a little more, and was rewarded with the view of a cold concrete room. It smelled musty and the floor was dirty. Rox considered a moment. No, this definitely isn't heaven, he decided.

"So, does this mean I'm not dead?"

Vasher chortled, a sound Rox had never heard before. "No, Rox, you're not dead, though that woman sure tried her hardest. You're here at the safe house."

Rox groaned, slightly disappointed. Heaven would have been nice.

 

 

WOOOOOOOOOHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOO! I won the lottery! (Well, one breath of it, at least. And here's the rules clarifying your question, Magestar.

Quote

Each night, players may choose to enter the breath lottery. There will be a certain number of breaths available each night (based on number of alive players), which will be distributed randomly among the entries. The lottery may only be entered once each night.

As for me being a Potential Returned, seriously guys? How thick do you think I am? The last thing I'd want to do after being attacked would be to say that I'd been attacked. That would make people suspicious of me when I didn't actually die.

[Frozen Mint]

44 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said:

As for me being a Potential Returned, seriously guys? How thick do you think I am? The last thing I'd want to do after being attacked would be to say that I'd been attacked. That would make people suspicious of me when I didn't actually die.

You declared that your breath was stolen on day 1. You wouldn't have known that you were a Potential Returned until night 1, so you would have discovered it after the fact. 

To be clear, I don't think that you're a Potential Returned right now, but your argument doesn't work to defend you.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Frozen Mint

[Doc12]

2 hours ago, Paranoid King said:

Who else got a PM from Mark, and was anything important shared?

As I've told Meta, I myself received a PM from him on night zero, where he claimed to be a villager with three Breaths. When i called his bluff, he shrugged it off and asked if i had any information or suspicions. 

I don't know if this actually makes him suspicious, as i myself have been trying to contact most of you (including you,  Plathar) 

In terms of reads right now, Sheep is accusing Magestar a bit too vehemently without any solid reasons. Sure,  Araris did a good analysis, but Sheep was honestly vague about his reasons. I'm not accusing him yet, but I agree on watching him. 

[Metacognition]

3 minutes ago, Doctor12 said:

As I've told Meta, I myself received a PM from him on night zero, where he claimed to be a villager with three Breaths. When i called his bluff, he shrugged it off and asked if i had any information or suspicions. 

I just went back through our PM. I don't see where you said that he said he had three breaths. He told me that he had 4. That helps confirm it in my eyes that he was fishing for information though. 

[Doc12]

16 minutes ago, Metacognition said:

I just went back through our PM. I don't see where you said that he said he had three breaths. He told me that he had 4. That helps confirm it in my eyes that he was fishing for information though. 

Meta, he confirmed to me outright that he was fishing  for information. And in the same message said something like "I don't actually have three Breaths, or do i? I don't know if you're evil" 

[TheMightyLopen]

I've got a PM with Mark too, although we haven't been talking much since early on. There's not much that's very noteworthy in the PM, except he did mention he had gut suspicion against Meta, but then immediately followed that up with saying that Meta usually ends up being good. Which I think kind of backs up what Meta is saying about him. I've seen eliminators try to just give a little nudge to people to start making them paranoid about villagers that could end up in a leadership type of role in the thread so that that villager won't have as much influence and won't be as big of a problem. Which could possibly be what's happening here. So yeah, I'll add my vote on Mark as well.

[Ecthelion III]

1 hour ago, Frozen Mint said:

You declared that your breath was stolen on day 1. You wouldn't have known that you were a Potential Returned until night 1, so you would have discovered it after the fact. 

To be clear, I don't think that you're a Potential Returned right now, but your argument doesn't work to defend you.

Wait, do the Potential Returned not know that they're Potential Returned? Where does it say that? I thought it was a role like any other SE game.

[Elbereth]

Potential Returned are not aware that they have that role. 

[luckat]

I'm surprised whoever lost their Breath hasn't spoken up yet. I wonder if that means it's one of the inactive players, or if someone's keeping quiet for in case they are a Potential Returned.

I think the best way of dealing with Ecthelion for now is for someone with a Strawman to target him. Any use of a Strawman reveals whether the target is a Potential Returned, and I confirmed with Elbereth that a person is still revealed as a Potential Returned after they Return. If a Strawman finds that Ecthelion is not a Potential Returned, then we can assume he was lucky enough to win the Lottery. If they find that he is a Potential Returned, then it’s still possible he won the Lottery, but he is likely a Returned now.

On the topic of Mark, I received a PM from him Day 1, a bit after my first post. He asked if I had 4 Breath because it seemed like a common number. When I pressed, he said he'd only had one claim, but both that and his own Breath count were 4. Then he was concerned about appearing suspicious. I implied anyone trying to steal my Breath wouldn't get much. There hasn't been anything in that PM since Day 1.

I think Mark's fishing for info was suspicious. I also think it's interesting that he was the first person to put a second vote on someone Day 1. However, I'm surprised that he got three votes in a row relatively quickly. I'll hold onto my vote for now so we don't decide on the lynch too early and so Mark gets a chance to respond. However, if no better target presents itself, I'd be fine with lynching him.

Also, I'd be interested in hearing from Meta what the plan to help find the Returned that he shared with Mark was.

Vote Tally:
Mark (3?): Meta, Magestar?, Lopen
Magestar (1): Araris
Ecthelion (1): Conq
Araris (1): PK
Frozen Mint (1?): Magestar?

@Magestar You didn't retract your vote from Frozen Mint. I'm not sure how Elbereth will count this, but many GMs just count the first red vote that isn't later retracted in green.

On 8/23/2016 at 10:59 PM, Araris Valerian said:

If we didn't have an inactivity filter, I would jump at those players, but we do, so hopefully we can get a bit more discussion this cycle.

There’s an inactivity filter? I don’t remember one being mentioned.

7 hours ago, Magestar said:

Oh.  I edit'd out those reasons a bit before you posted.  'Cause paranoia.  Sorry.

You shouldn’t be editing content out of your posts. It’s not fair to the players who miss seeing what you said before, and it just smacks of Ruin .

[Young Bard]

OK, I was busy yesterday, but I'm very surprised someone hasn't brought this up before.

Ecth lost his Breath Night 0. He declared so on Day 1. If he were a villager, he would have died at the end of Day 1 unless someone passed their Breath. No-one did pass their Breath, because then they would have been killed at the end of Night 1, and there was no mention of it in the write-up. Ecth is a confirmed Returned. (Either that or he's being a Chaotic and lied for no clear reason. But I consider the first much more likely.) The Lottery is on the Night Cycle, after Ecth would have died.

El, do you mind confirming that Drab victims will die at the end of the Day Cycle?

It makes me wonder about a number of other players now.

Araris - I thought that Bugsy being innocent made you seem more like a villager in my eyes, but now you defend Ecth. The thing is, I almost feel as if you're too obvious an Eliminator to be an Eliminator somehow. You're a good player - unless you were truly desperate, I don't think you'd act the way you did. Then again, I find it likely that the Eliminator team is a bit smaller than usual to compensate for the Potential Returned, maybe 2 or 3 people, so perhaps you're desperate enough to try and keep Ecth alive long enough that the new trustworthy recruits can swarm in.

Magestar - Honestly, I haven't read Meta's most recent long post yet, but I'm about to. Ignoring that, I consider Magestar a possible candidate, again for his ties with Ecth and Araris, and because he got noticed by Meta, one of the best analyzers in SE, at the beginning of the game, but I'll edit my new thoughts in once I start reading in greater depth.

[luckat]

9 minutes ago, The Young Bard said:

OK, I was busy yesterday, but I'm very surprised someone hasn't brought this up before.

Ecth lost his Breath Night 0. He declared so on Day 1. If he were a villager, he would have died at the end of Day 1 unless someone passed their Breath. No-one did pass their Breath, because then they would have been killed at the end of Night 1, and there was no mention of it in the write-up. Ecth is a confirmed Returned. (Either that or he's being a Chaotic and lied for no clear reason. But I consider the first much more likely.) The Lottery is on the Night Cycle, after Ecth would have died.

El, do you mind confirming that Drab victims will die at the end of the Day Cycle?

Here's the order of night actions from the rules:

Quote

Order of Actions
Breath Receiving/Lottery
Drab death
Awakened Rope
Lifeless
Breath Stealing
Lifeless Rabbit
Retrieve breath from Awakened objects
Awaken Objects
Strawmen

Drab death is at the beginning of the night after the Lottery, but before anything else. Breath receiving was moved to the end of the day so it would be a day action in a later clarification, but Drab death is still at night after the Lottery. So it is entirely possible Ecthelion survived due to getting a Breath in the Night 1 Lottery.

[Young Bard]

Quote

0 Breaths (Drabs): If you spend one full turn as a drab, you will die. (The Idrian Returned have hired an assassin to kill all drabs, because drabs are useless to their purposes and they don’t want any drab from whom they have stolen Breath to reveal them.)

From the rules - it specifically says "Turn", not "Cycle". So Drab kills come with the Day and Night Cycles. Ecth should have died at the end of Day 1, before he could ever have entered the Lottery.

[luckat]

6 minutes ago, The Young Bard said:

From the rules - it specifically says "Turn", not "Cycle". So Drab kills come with the Day and Night Cycles. Ecth should have died at the end of Day 1, before he could ever have entered the Lottery.

It's stated rather unclearly there. Initially, I believe it said cycle, and it was changed to something that was equally unclear. Drab death doesn't occur after a full turn or a full cycle. The actual rule is in the clarifications post below the rules:

Quote

9. If you are a drab at the point in the OoA when drab death occurs during the night, you will die (regardless of how long you have been drab). 

The order of actions for the day is given here:

There's no mention of Drab death there. Drab death always occurs at night.

[Magestar]

I knew I had forgotten to do that but never got arround to fixing it.  Frozen Mint  There.  That should do it.

I understand that there are lingering bad feelings for me, and that you guys want me watched, which is fine, but I have litterally done maybe two suspicious things; make a mistake about the game, and get on Meta's bad side.  I don't know that I have really done anything else suspicious.

What ties do I have to Ecth, exactly?  I think I said I was getting a bad read on him, and that the lost breath thing confused me.  BTW, thanks for clearing that up, guys.

4 hours ago, luckat said:

You shouldn’t be editing content out of your posts. It’s not fair to the players who miss seeing what you said before, and it just smacks of Ruin.

I did that literally two seconds after I put it in, because I decided that there was not enough evidence to defend Ecth with.  I was pretty certain no one had seen it.

Straw had seen it.

I think we should probably have Ecth inspected, as you suggest.  I don't know how you can find out if I am a Returned, and even I don't know if I'm a Potential.

@Elbereth, what would a Returned show up as for a Strawman?

3 hours ago, The Young Bard said:

(Bard Talking About Araris) - The thing is, I almost feel as if you're too obvious an Eliminator to be an Eliminator somehow.

Bold mine for clarification.  This line hurts my head.  Wat.  The overanalysis that goes into lines like this makes me crazy.

The worst part is, it's catching.  I'm starting to do it too.  Dang it guys, I've caught SE.

On a more serious note, I have not really payed much attention to Araris.  Didn't he vote for the same person you did, Bard?  No wait, just checked it; He voted for me!  What connections do I have with this guy either?  

And would you clarify why he seems bad?  When did he defend Ecth?  Not today, I don't think.  At least not that I can see.  

However, I will continue checking the other days until you get back to me.  Actually, I'll be doing that just in general to see how what people are saying match up to what they said before.

[twelfthrootoftwo]

I had a gut suspicion of Mark after last cycle, and he's had ample time to defend himself so that's where my vote will go for now.

I got a PM from him too. Nothing about breath count - he was asking about secret roles, and trying to save Ecthelion. (I mentioned I was suspicious of him in my first reply, and he hasn't responded for two days!)

On the other hand, Magestar's responses to suspicion still seem strong, and we now know Bugsy was a villager, so this is another potential avenue if Mark turns out to be village too.

[Mark IV]

15 hours ago, Metacognition said:

So firstly, before I start off, Yes I was phishing for information. That's because I'm trying out a new playstyle. I don't blame you if you can't believe that though. But, just so this isn't ambiguous, I definitely was phishing for info. Except for you meta. I know you're too good at this to fall for that.

So I had quite the conversation with Magestar in PMs over the night and while he hasn't allayed all of my suspicion of him, I'm at least willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. But, if Mark is a villager (I highly doubt it), I'll probably be going back to him because part of my read on Mark is based on the idea of Magestar being innocent. 

As I eluded to, I went back through the first day and I really think that Mark is most likely a Returned. 

To start with, he contacted me during Night Zero basically just because. He asked me if I had anything I wanted to say to him even though basically nothing had happened. This, in and of itself, wouldn't be all that concerning as I could see villagers creating preemptive PMs just as likely. But, when combined with everything else, I think this was Mark wanting to have a means of getting my thoughts before I went to the thread with them.As if I thought you'd give me a full out suspicions post before going with it on the thread. A way to keep tabs on me and see if I was suspicious of him You were already suspicious of me or his teammates. 

So starting with Night Zero: 

He starts off fairly suspicious of me, but also seems to be hedging about it as well. Yeah,  because I found your post suspicious (explained later). So, my gut acted up. But, my gut feeling is almost always wrong. So, I was trying not to let that cloud my judgement. I agree to take full credit if and when you die by my vote. Or by an action I did. Almost as if he doesn't want to get the blame for if/when I die. 

Then the PM happens, which seems a bit weird to me. Kind of like he wanted to see how I felt about him accusing me in thread.Tbh, yeah I did. But, that in itself isn't too indicative of either alignment. We talk for a bit and he tries to get my breath total out of me by supposedly telling me his total.oh please. This statement is a contradiction in and of itself. You tell me in your first line in your first message that you find me suspicious and are not willing to divulge any information. Then, you assume I think I'm smart enough to think I can outsmart you, or even get any info out of you. and, my intention in telling you my breath count was to signify that I couldn't be part of this plan. I'd been a bit frustrated since the beginning of night 0 that I couldn't make anything I thought useful, and thought you might provide some input on the situation if you'd had any. So he was already fishing for information. Then, I tell him about one of the rudimentary plans I had to help us find Returned. good plan, btw I told him that I was exhausted though, due to being so busy at the start of this game, and I'd try to get it up tomorrow. Then Mark offers to post it instead. To me, it felt like he was trying to take some credit for the idea which would make sense if he was a Returned.in which case, I would post it on the thread without your permission. I only asked because you were tired and I understood and agreed with the plan. Remind me not to offer to help next time. If he could attach his name to a plan that he knew came from a villager to stop the Returned, then that would make him look a lot more like a villager later on. can't really argue with this statement. True for every villager.

That's the last I hear from him, which makes sense for the 180 he did once Day 1 started. 

The next time that Mark mentions me, he's gone from suspicious of me to voting along beside me. just because im suspicious of you doesnt mean i cannot agree with a point youre making. There's some Latin name for this kind of fallacy- to invalidate a fact Based on the source. And again, hedging on why he's voting a certain way. Plus, I think that his wording, "Given that this lynch isn't really in the hands of villagers" sounds like a slip up to me. How was that lynch not in the hands of the villagers? We'd only had a few votes by that point in time and there was still plenty of time and there were a lot of people who hadn't voted yet. what I'd meant was that the lynch wouldn't benefit the villagers. I guess I can't really defend that very much. I'm not sure what I was thinking in wording it that way. I guess you could count that as a point against me.

But what really got me when I read back through was this whole bit that he said next: 

This just doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like he's trying to put suspicion on me, but then goes on to say that it's something that I do every game? what I'm saying is that though you do seem to target one specific person at the start of each game.  the manner in which you did it had seemed suspicious to me. Secondly, that first line was in response to the fact that you voted on Magestar while affirming that you'd been acting unusual because you weren't posting much. But, others said you were acting weird because of how you voted, which I agreed with. He votes with me, but isn't convinced by my reasoning? my complete reason for voting for Magestar was to try to save bugsy  because I feel bugsy acted exactly as I would've in his position. And finally, I don't even know what to make of the last part, but it does seem like he's using outside knowledge to come to those conclusions. This entire thing just seems to be a bunch of double talk. Meta is suspicious, but he's not. He could die or he might not. It's like he doesn't want to come off too strongly in either direction; much like an Eliminator would want.

Finally, last night:

He doesn't seem all that concerned about the possibility that he could be the next target from the Returned. In fact, he's downright nonchalant. Perhaps because he knows he won't be targeted due to being a Returned?So,  I don't get to joke when night falls? Am I to sit cowering every moment in this game because I might die? I've barely been killed at all by the eliminators(I might have been killed a couple of times, but I'm not too sure about that.), so unlike some people, who are killed almost every game, I don't really have that forgoing sense of doom every time I start a game.

 

So that's my case. I really think I'm on to something here. And if I'm right, we soft clear Magestar as well since the vote was pretty close and I don't think they would've taken that big of a risk. Magestar was pretty well set to be lynched until fairly late in the day after all. 

 

The emboldened parts are me.

13 hours ago, Doctor12 said:

Meta, he confirmed to me outright that he was fishing  for information. And in the same message said something like "I don't actually have three Breaths, or do i? I don't know if you're evil"  yeah. Let me explain the context. Doc here had just called my bluff (that I was sharing info with him too easily) and I told him that, "yes i lied. I definitely claimed village alignment because everyone would do that (my claim said that I was hallandren and I had 3 breath) and i might or might not have 3 Breaths.  I'm not sure if you're evil ,so I'm not telling you." 

 

12 hours ago, TheMightyLopen said:

I've got a PM with Mark too, although we haven't been talking much since early on. There's not much that's very noteworthy in the PM, except he did mention he had gut suspicion against Meta, but then immediately followed that up with saying that Meta usually ends up being good.explained above. Also, I did reference that the topic had been discussed on discord that Meta had been evil only thrice or something. And I said that that was my reference. I'll admit, I committed gamblers fallacy there and that Meta isn't really more likely than usual to be evil though. My bad there. Which I think kind of backs up what Meta is saying about him. I've seen eliminators try to just give a little nudge to people to start making them paranoid about villagers that could end up in a leadership type of role in the thread so that that villager won't have as much influence and won't be as big of a problem. Which could possibly be what's happening here. So yeah, I'll add my vote on Mark as well.

For those of you wondering, as of the end of N1,  I had exactly 4 breaths.

[Magestar]

28 minutes ago, twelfthrootoftwo said:

On the other hand, Magestar's responses to suspicion still seem strong, and we now know Bugsy was a villager, so this is another potential avenue if Mark turns out to be village too.

I will always respond strongly to suspicion.  It's a problem, I know, because of the whole 'He doth protest to much' thing, and I would agree, but it's just how I am.

21 minutes ago, Mark IV said:

I'd been a bit frustrated since the beginning of night 0 that I couldn't make anything I thought useful, and thought you might provide some input on the situation if you'd had any.

I felt the same way.  Except that to start, I had even less breaths than you did.    

21 minutes ago, Mark IV said:

I've barely been killed at all by the eliminators(I might have been killed a couple of times, but I'm not too sure about that.), so unlike some people, who are killed almost every game, I don't really have that forgoing sense of doom every time I start a game.

I started with a foreboding sense of doom.

By the way, I really sympathize with Marks position right now.  I can't tell whether or not he is an Elim, but I really see where he is coming from.  If he is an Elim, than I think I will have a much better idea why you guys have such a bad feeling about me.  

If Mark is not an Elim, I am going to start suspecting Meta, especially considering that, through his posts, he put himself in a position to turn this on me, if he kills a villager.  Sounds like a pretty good Elim strat to me.  Kill a villager, get to kill another.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Magestar

[Elbereth]

7 hours ago, luckat said:

@Magestar You didn't retract your vote from Frozen Mint. I'm not sure how Elbereth will count this, but many GMs just count the first red vote that isn't later retracted in green.

Ah, something I forgot to mention. I will count the last vote made in red (because I mark votes as they appear in thread, not at the end of the day). As a corollary to that, if you retract a vote without making a new one, please retract in a new post, not just in the post in which you originally voted, because I will not see it there. 

6 hours ago, The Young Bard said:

El, do you mind confirming that Drab victims will die at the end of the Day Cycle?

I do mind.  Because they don't. They die at the point when Drab death occurs in the order of actions. It is rather unclear; sorry about that. 

2 hours ago, Magestar said:

@Elbereth, what would a Returned show up as for a Strawman?

 

[AliasSheep]

14 hours ago, Doctor12 said:

In terms of reads right now, Sheep is accusing Magestar a bit too vehemently without any solid reasons. Sure,  Araris did a good analysis, but Sheep was honestly vague about his reasons. I'm not accusing him yet, but I agree on watching him. 

I haven't actually accused Magestar yet, I was just explaining Araris' point to him, though I acknowledge that could be read as me agreeing with Araris.  I don't actually, a few of Mage's posts have seemed quite eliminatory to me, and few generic.  If anything, I'm going to accuse him now.  I have a few things I want to comment on.

First, is Magestar's defense of himself, primarily yesterday but also today, in which he made several fairly emotive posts, expressing frustration and sadness at being voted on.  This strikes me as eliminatory, in that emotive posts are much easier to get people to empathise with one with, thus require less potentially flawed logic from an eliminator to explain something.

Second, I'll like @Magestar to provide some more reasoning for his vote on Mark, which occurred in his first post after Meta's accusation of Mark.  He provides no reasoning of his own for this, simply stating that he found Mark also suspicious and that Mark was a likely target (I'm not quite sure I understand this last bit, clarification would be nice).  It seems a bit like bandwagoning to me, thus why I'd like to see some clarifications and further explanation from Magestar.

And finally, in his last post, Magestar says he sympathises with Mark's position and says he can't actually tell whether Mark is an elim or not.  I'm not quite certain why he would say this and vote for Mark, so perhaps he could explain that as well.