Lifeless Shardblades

[+Kolten]

Could you create a lifeless shardblade? I know that there is not enough information on how different magic systems interact to really answer this question entirely, but the concept intrigues me. Spoilers follow . . .

I figure there are two ways it could work

1) It would act like an awakened corpse, and follow your vocal commands. Maybe it would not be much more than a dead shardblade except now it can change to the shape you tell it to take. 

2) You can somehow shape the command to try and fix the bond the shardblade had (this time to have it bond to you of course). This would obviously be cooler cause now you can use surges too! I like this as well for the symmetry it has. Normally spren find broken humans and fill in the cracks of the humans soul with their investiture. Now a human finds a broken spren in fills in the cracks of the spren's soul with their investiture. Also this would totally line up with Endowment's intent for whatever that's worth. 

Would this have an effect on the sprens intent as well? Would they become more endowmenty? 

 

Warbreaker Spoilers

 

The strongest "evidence" against this being possible is that there might not really be a reason to try and create Nightblood when you can just awaken dead shardblades. Then again maybe Vasher and friends were interested in the scientific challenge of creating a sentient sword artificially. Or maybe Nightblood was created before the day of recreance, and there just were not that many dead shardblades to go around

 

*note: I am kind of new here, so if I need more or less spoiler tags let me know . . . 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Kolten
spelling correction

[soulcastJam he/him]

So, two problems I see.  First, different types of investiture tend to interfere with each other, so it might be much more difficult to awaken an invested object like a shardblade.  Second, awakening is easier to accomplish the more your object is similar to a human.  A sword is not very human at all, so it would be much more difficult to awaken.  I'm not sure to what extent that is true only physically or whether that translates to the other two realms.  So if it is possible, I suspect it would require many more breaths than Nightblood did.

[+Kolten]

Hmm good point! I wonder would happen if you tried to awaken a dead mistborn, I highly doubt the resulting lifeless would be be able to use allomancy (though as far a sheer awesomeness goes, that would be be pretty cool, zombies that can riot fear? Pretty sweet). But yeah I guess investitures do not always mesh well, so it might not be so simple as saying a single command.

As for the human thing, I thought that the point of making things human shaped, and using organic materials and whatnot was just to make it seem more like it was once alive, or at least making the association between it and a living thing stronger. In a sense the shardblade was once alive, and so maybe its memory of having lived would make it organic enough to lower the number of breaths. I mean the lifeless squirrel vasher awoke only took a single breath if I remember correctly. In any case a once living shardblade seems closer to "life" to me than a sword shaped hunk of metal that has never actually been anywhere close to living before. 

I think what would matter more would be how much awakening would be able to affect the cognitive and spiritual realm, as a spren's presence in the physical realm is not really that strong. I mean it would not have to replace honor/cultivation's investiture at all, just shift the nature of what it thinks its bond is. (I believe the bond is "found" in the spiritual realm, seems the most likely place at least, as a hemalurgic spike can steal the bond according to WoB).

 

it would seem awakening can at least be used to erase memories, not sure if that is a cognitive or spiritual effect. If only dead shardblades were cognizant enough to repeat some words, then you could just have them forget that they were ever bonded at all! At least then they would not have to be screaming all the time. The breaking of a shardblade always did seem more like a mental issue than a true death anyway. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by Kolten

[Landis963 he/him]

In addition to the interference problem and the human shape problem, there's also the problem that a "zombie" spren is similar in case to the Post-Reod Elantrians - namely they're not entirely dead.  

[+Kolten]

Yeah, very true. If this could work, it would be much closer to whatever Vasher did to get that girl to forget than to awakening a corpse with breath.

[Yata he/him]

But you can't awake a living being... you will end just to give to him your Breath I suppose (this is a question nodoby did).

About the Squirrel liveless... Vasher used the one-breath-lifeless command... To be honest I don't think someone other than him may do this on a Squirrel without boost the Breath needed.

After all saying the right Command it's just a little part of the Awakening, the mental image is the hard part and the difference between a skilled Awakener or a noob it's just in their abilities to form solid Mental Images.

[+hwiles He/Him]

Not sure if this is too far off the main topic...but my personal understanding of Vasher's memory erasing technique was that he used some of his breath to fill the cracks/holes in the little girl's spirit web opened by her traumatizing ordeal.  Thus, her memory loss regarding what had been done to her during her kidnapping was simply a side effect of his patching up the holes that had been ripped in her web.  In that way, Vasher can't just arbitrarily erase people's memories, he can only erase specific memories relating to events traumatic enough to damage an individuals spirit web.

[Argel he/him]

How are we counting Nightblood? Didn't Brandon describe it as an automaton/robot spren or something along those lines?

Edited July 6, 2016 by Argel

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

Not sure if this is too far off the main topic...but my personal understanding of Vasher's memory erasing technique was that he used some of his breath to fill the cracks/holes in the little girl's spirit web opened by her traumatizing ordeal.  Thus, her memory loss regarding what had been done to her during her kidnapping was simply a side effect of his patching up the holes that had been ripped in her web.  In that way, Vasher can't just arbitrarily erase people's memories, he can only erase specific memories relating to events traumatic enough to damage an individuals spirit web.

I don't know... It seems to me too specific for Sanderson.

I think simply He implant some Cognitive Command in his Breath (like any other Awakening) and then give those Breath to the Girl...in this way the Erase Breath would merge with the girl's one and affect her cognitive.

Probably this may be used to performe other mental manipulation

[+Kolten]

3 hours ago, Argel said:

How are we counting Nightblood? Didn't Brandon describe it as an automaton/robot spren or something along those lines?

Yes I am pretty sure he called it a robot spren. From what I understand, Vasher was attempting to create a shardblade artificially out of breaths. The result was certainly not perfect though. As far as we have seen, Nightblood has to remain in the physical realm, not to mention certain other inconveniences in trying to actually use him. Brandon Sanderson has also called him a sort of "Frankenstein" spren, I kind of like that description better. 

 

Whatever the specific mechanics of how the girl forgot her captivity, I am pretty sure she was the one who had to say the command. Didn't Vasher say something along the lines of "repeat after me, and think about what you are saying?" Also for some reason I remember there was a scene where Vivienna suspects that Vasher was able to get some dogs to like him. Did anything like that ever happen?  Found it!

 

quotes from warbreaker

Quote

As they reached the mansions, Vasher paused on the street, setting the girl down. “Child,” he said. “I’m going to say some words to you. I want you to repeat them. Repeat them, and mean them.”

So that makes me think it is some sort of self inflicted use of breath to change your own cognition? Maybe that is how Vasher is able to control his divine breath so well, he can say a command and sort of "forget" that he is divine? 

Quote

A pair of guard dogs began barking. They howled and growled, getting closer. Vivenna cringed. Yet, as soon as they saw Vasher, they grew quiet, then trailed along happily, one hopping up and trying to lick his hands.

Did he modify his Connection to the dogs somehow? These seem like fairly spiritual effects. Maybe in a similar way you could increase your connection to a shardblade? Maybe to the point where you could re swear the oaths and "fix" it? 

Edited July 6, 2016 by Kolten
Found some quotes

[william_wallace]

BLIGHTSONG

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren people would feel are corrupted. But that is corruption where the mixing of different shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, people are meaning the mixing of shards powers.

BLIGHTSONG

So is there a mixing of shards power with Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Could we make an assumption from this quote that Nightblood could be an awakened lifeless (dead spren) shardblade?

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, william_wallace said:

Could we make an assumption from this quote that Nightblood could be an awakened lifeless (dead spren) shardblade?

Well Nightblood's look doesn't fit with a Shardblade's one, neither is weight

[shadowwisp]

On 7/5/2016 at 7:32 PM, soulcastJam said:

 Second, awakening is easier to accomplish the more your object is similar to a human.  

Just being nitpicky, Awakening is not just easier if the object is more similar to humans but to any form of life. Thus a dead shardblade would be magnitude times easier to awaken than a similarly invested steel sword metal mind. 

 

On 7/6/2016 at 3:41 PM, Kolten said:

Did he modify his Connection to the dogs somehow? These seem like fairly spiritual effects. Maybe in a similar way you could increase your connection to a shardblade? Maybe to the point where you could re swear the oaths and "fix" it? 

I had previously asked Brandon Sanderson if there was an overlap with the above ability and using Bronze. He stated that there is an overlap that involves "playing with spirit webs and/or the cognitive realm"

 

6 hours ago, william_wallace said:

Could we make an assumption from this quote that Nightblood could be an awakened lifeless (dead spren) shardblade?

To play devil's advocate, there is WoB that Nightblood is not his real name. Perhaps his real name is the dead spren sharblade's name. Similar to how Returned are named. 

That being said, I don't think Nightblood is an awakened lifeless.  I think Nightblood is supposed to be "proof" that you can use one magic system to replicate another. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by shadowwisp

[Yata he/him]

7 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

That being said, I don't think Nightblood is an awakened lifeless.  I think Nightblood is supposed to be "proof" that you can use one magic system to replicate another. 

Yes Awakening a Shardblade will have no sense to Vasher.

If the "base" needs to be a Shardblade....where is the risk in Vasher's wife will to spread the "Living Steel"'s knowledge.?

[shadowwisp]

6 minutes ago, Yata said:

Yes Awakening a Shardblade will have no sense to Vasher.

If the "base" needs to be a Shardblade....where is the risk in Vasher's wife will to spread the "Living Steel"'s knowledge.?

Yup, and I believe the Warbreaker sequel is to stop Yesteel from mass producing "Nightbloods". It wouldn't be that great of an issue/threat if he needed shardblades. 

[ARARITA he/him]

I've been saying Nightblood is a Zombieblade for eeeevvvvvvvver - I've never been convinced it is not a dead blade brought back ....

[Voidus]

On 06/07/2016 at 8:29 AM, Kolten said:

Could you create a lifeless shardblade? I know that there is not enough information on how different magic systems interact to really answer this question entirely, but the concept intrigues me. Spoilers follow . . .

I figure there are two ways it could work

1) It would act like an awakened corpse, and follow your vocal commands. Maybe it would not be much more than a dead shardblade except now it can change to the shape you tell it to take. 

2) You can somehow shape the command to try and fix the bond the shardblade had (this time to have it bond to you of course). This would obviously be cooler cause now you can use surges too! I like this as well for the symmetry it has. Normally spren find broken humans and fill in the cracks of the humans soul with their investiture. Now a human finds a broken spren in fills in the cracks of the spren's soul with their investiture. Also this would totally line up with Endowment's intent for whatever that's worth. 

Would this have an effect on the sprens intent as well? Would they become more endowmenty? 

 

Warbreaker Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

The strongest "evidence" against this being possible is that there might not really be a reason to try and create Nightblood when you can just awaken dead shardblades. Then again maybe Vasher and friends were interested in the scientific challenge of creating a sentient sword artificially. Or maybe Nightblood was created before the day of recreance, and there just were not that many dead shardblades to go around

 

*note: I am kind of new here, so if I need more or less spoiler tags let me know . . . 

Moved to cosmere theories due to spoilers.

[JoModius]

Quote

Did he modify his Connection to the dogs somehow? These seem like fairly spiritual effects. Maybe in a similar way you could increase your connection to a shardblade? Maybe to the point where you could re swear the oaths and "fix" it? 

The Warbreaker annotations actually seem to say that it isn't anything Vasher did himself.  Babies and dogs just naturally like Returned because they can sense the Divine Breath inside of them

Warbreaker Annotation - Chapter Forty-Nine

Spoiler

In this chapter, we also get the first hints that children and animals like Vasher. That’s another hint about his nature—though a very, very subtle one, since I haven’t talked about how animals and children all like Returned. They can sense the divine Breath within him, and it comforts them.

I was also of the mind that Vasher did not use any of his breaths on the little girl directly.  As mentioned, he showed her what command to use on herself.  This is probably quite similar to the 'suppress your divine breath' trick.

Edited September 11, 2017 by JoModius

[Calderis he/him]

On 7/5/2016 at 4:58 PM, Kolten said:

As for the human thing, I thought that the point of making things human shaped, and using organic materials and whatnot was just to make it seem more like it was once alive, or at least making the association between it and a living thing stronger. In a sense the shardblade was once alive, and so maybe its memory of having lived would make it organic enough to lower the number of breaths. I mean the lifeless squirrel vasher awoke only took a single breath if I remember correctly. In any case a once living shardblade seems closer to "life" to me than a sword shaped hunk of metal that has never actually been anywhere close to living before. 

It has more to do with the shape of the person who is holding the breath when they give the command. 

Quote

EarthRester

In Warbreaker, the closer an inanimate object is to a humanoid shape, the easier it is to awaken it.

Hypothetically, say a race of sentient quadrupedal canines had access to BioChromatic Breath. Would they have an easier time awakening objects if they were closer to a canine shape, or is the rule still that it needs to be more humanoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Closer to canine.

 

[Steeldancer he/him]

On 10/15/2016 at 11:26 AM, shadowwisp said:

Yup, and I believe the Warbreaker sequel is to stop Yesteel from mass producing "Nightbloods". It wouldn't be that great of an issue/threat if he needed shardblades. 

Ah a point here. 

Roshar is suspiciously missing a large number of shardblades from the recreance. Since Warbreaker is considered a prequel, I wouldn't imagine it to be too farfetched to say that the 5 scholars picked up a wagonfull of shardblades when they visited roshar, to try and awaken. 

An issue with this idea is how heavy nightblood is. But I don't think it's out of the question. 

[FiveLate]

4 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Ah a point here. 

Roshar is suspiciously missing a large number of shardblades from the recreance. Since Warbreaker is considered a prequel, I wouldn't imagine it to be too farfetched to say that the 5 scholars picked up a wagonfull of shardblades when they visited roshar, to try and awaken. 

An issue with this idea is how heavy nightblood is. But I don't think it's out of the question. 

Shard blades are pretty well tracked....they would have had to discover an unknown cache or something.

[Steeldancer he/him]

30 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Shard blades are pretty well tracked....they would have had to discover an unknown cache or something.

Look at the recreance. Dalinar commented on how many radiants left their shards, and there are not that many known blades in the world, and that was only 2 orders. I think it's totally possible. Known blades are tracked, yes. Forgotten ones from the recreance? Not. 

[Yata he/him]

10 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Ah a point here. 

Roshar is suspiciously missing a large number of shardblades from the recreance. Since Warbreaker is considered a prequel, I wouldn't imagine it to be too farfetched to say that the 5 scholars picked up a wagonfull of shardblades when they visited roshar, to try and awaken. 

An issue with this idea is how heavy nightblood is. But I don't think it's out of the question. 

There is no point in made Nightblood-like weapon if you have already hundred of Shardblades and much more we don't even know if it's possible to take a Shardblade out of Roshar's System as the Spren are bound to homeland from the Investiture they are composed.

 

The point as "Nightblood as an Awakened Shardblade" arose periodically and there are already tons of topic about the pros and contros of that theory (for example here )