Why didn't Kaladin take the shard plate?

[soulcastJam he/him]

So, why didn't Kaladin take the shard plate and leave the blade? And if having shards makes you a light-eyes, how do they treat people whose eyes don't turn light because they only have plate? Do their kids not become light eyes?

[Eki]

I think he saw the two as one set.

To be fair I think the situation would have turned out the same even if Kaladin had accepted the armor. Like many others, Amaram seems to overvalue the blades over the armors.

[Omniforce he/him]

On 6/30/2016 at 0:36 PM, Eki said:

I think he saw the two as one set.

To be fair I think the situation would have turned out the same even if Kaladin had accepted the armor. Like many others, Amaram seems to overvalue the blades over the armors.

I'd have to agree. Amaram would have killed everyone else anyways. It would have caused too many questions as to why he got only the shardblade and some lowly darkeyed got the plate.

Also iirc the Shardplate would be enough to change his eyes, and as long as he married a lighteyed their children would most certainly be lighteyed. Heck even if he married a darkeyed they could still be lighteyed. Rosharian eye genetics are weird though, so there's no telling what nahn or dahn they'd turn out.

[galendo]

 

3 minutes ago, Omniforce said:

Also iirc the Shardplate would be enough to change his eyes, and as long as he married a lighteyed their children would most certainly be lighteyed. Heck even if he married a darkeyed they could still be lighteyed. Rosharian eye genetics are weird though, so there's no telling what nahn or dahn they'd turn out.

I doubt having just Plate would change someone's eyes.  There's an actual bond between the Shardblade wielder and the blade which lets the user summon it; there isn't anything like that for Plate.  I suspect the changing eye color is a result of the bond, not just possessing the plate.  Similarly, although we haven't seen it, I suspect that just possessing a Shardblade without bonding it wouldn't be enough to make someone's eyes change color.

[Omniforce he/him]

Never thought about the bond being the reason. Moash had his eyes turning before the bond was complete. And they stopped a couple of days before the bond was actually complete. Never the less Kaladin would be 4th dahn just for owning the plate. Not sure about the kids if his eyes didn't change.

[KageNoOni]

1 hour ago, Omniforce said:

Heck even if he married a darkeyed they could still be lighteyed. Rosharian eye genetics are weird though, so there's no telling what nahn or dahn they'd turn out.

Nahn and Dahn aren't genetic, just a measure of privilege and social standing used within each caste.  If you want to raise your Nahn/Dahn, you do so by buying the improved privilege.  Also, your children are one level below you.  Shardbearer's are automatically of the 4th Dahn, so any children he had would be 5th Dahn, unless they could buy themselves back into 4th.

Edit: Did some searching, finally found the details.  It turns out that children being one rank lower is only for very high ranked lighteyes.  Those same ranks are the kind that can't be bought either.  Here's the WoB.

Edited June 30, 2016 by KageNoOni
Found the WoB

[Blightsong he/him]

I would also like to point out that Kaladin would really be able to fight with a spear effectively while in shard plate.

[Oudeis he/him]

22 hours ago, galendo said:

 

I doubt having just Plate would change someone's eyes.  There's an actual bond between the Shardblade wielder and the blade which lets the user summon it; there isn't anything like that for Plate.

 

I'm not certain I agree. There's clearly something with the plate. You use a mental command to release the bits of it, and when you die it starts to fall apart off your body. Now, maybe that's some connection that isn't a "bond". Maybe it's a bond that doesn't change eye color. But there seems to be something there.

[soulcastJam he/him]

23 hours ago, Omniforce said:

Never the less Kaladin would be 4th dahn just for owning the plate. 

4th Dahn of the light eyes caste. But if he doesn't have light eyes would he still be in that caste?  Let's separate this from kaladins actual circumstances with Amaram. Since plate doesn't change eye color, are you still considered light eyed if you win plate? Or do you just become 1st nahn (dark eyes).

[Samaldin he/him]

When Adolin offered Kaladin the full set he was curious to find out if the eyecolor really does change, so i take that to mean that the eyecolor wouldn´t matter. Maybe it could be that a darkeyed shardbearer gets the 4th Dhan but his children can´t inherit it (except if the also inherit a shard)

[Erklitt she/her]

23 hours ago, Oudeis said:

 

I'm not certain I agree. There's clearly something with the plate. You use a mental command to release the bits of it, and when you die it starts to fall apart off your body. Now, maybe that's some connection that isn't a "bond". Maybe it's a bond that doesn't change eye color. But there seems to be something there.

I agree there certainly is something about plate. Some more reasons:

• Originally, shardplate radiated light.
• Originally, the helms could be commanded (again, mentally) to disintegrate / become completely transparent / invisible, as evidenced by the first of Dalinar's visions that's described in the book (the one with the midnight essence creatures)
• IIRC, Brandon was once asked whether the windspren dancing around Kaladin on his first flight across the plain had anything to do with 'proto-plate', and the answer was something like 'You are a very wise man'.  

So, in a sense the plate also is 'dead' now. It seems clear that Syl doesn't react to 'dead plate' like she reacts to 'dead blades'. Yet I think that in a lesser sense, there still might be something reprehensible even about current-day plate. Kaladin might have felt that instinctively. In his rationalization, he concentrated on the blade as the tool that had killed his friends. But one big reason for that shardbearer to be so unstoppable was his plate.

Anyway, I don't think Kaladin was concerned about dahns or lighteyed children when he refused the entire set. He just hated the whole concept of a shardbearer after what had happened.

And I'm really curious to find out more about the origins and development of shardplate!!

[Emerald101 he/him]

Here's a WoB on shardplate bonding with the user. (source)

Quote

KIMANIAK

When Kaladin killed the Shardbearer (Helaran) in WoK, Amaram remarked that Amaram knew the Shardbearer was dead because the Shardblade didn’t disapper and because the Shardplate began to fall off of him. Is there some type of “lesser” bond between Shardplate and its wearer?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes there is

So the question is, is that's enough to change somebody's eyes?

Edited July 2, 2016 by Emerald101
grammar/spelling

[Jondesu he/him]

16 hours ago, Emerald101 said:

Here's a WoB on shardplate bonding with the user. (source)

So the question is, is that's enough to change somebody's eyes?

I would guess so. Also, I wonder if some of the tricks Shardplate could do just aren't done because no one knows how. The visor turns transparent, or opaque when needed (like with the lightning); I wonder if someone who knew it was possible could command the entire helm to go transparent.

jW

[maxal she/her]

3 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I would guess so. Also, I wonder if some of the tricks Shardplate could do just aren't done because no one knows how. The visor turns transparent, or opaque when needed (like with the lightning); I wonder if someone who knew it was possible could command the entire helm to go transparent.

jW

Probably not. You probably need to be a real Radiant to command your Shardplate.

[Jondesu he/him]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Probably not. You probably need to be a real Radiant to command your Shardplate.

But we know they can command parts to loosen and come off (Adolin and I think Dalinar both do that). I bet they can command the visor to go opaque or transparent at least, since it's likely just unconscious commands the way it works now.

jW

[maxal she/her]

4 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

But we know they can command parts to loosen and come off (Adolin and I think Dalinar both do that). I bet they can command the visor to go opaque or transparent at least, since it's likely just unconscious commands the way it works now.

jW

From my understanding, they don't truly control their Plate parts... All we see is Adolin releasing his gauntlet (this is the scene I remember, during his fight with Eshonai, he has to drop it when he loses his arm band as it was too heavy), I always figured there was some mechanical command involved such as twisting the muscles or something.

I don't think they can't have their Plate appear or disappear on them as former Radiants used to do.

[Erklitt she/her]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

From my understanding, they don't truly control their Plate parts... All we see is Adolin releasing his gauntlet (this is the scene I remember, during his fight with Eshonai, he has to drop it when he loses his arm band as it was too heavy), I always figured there was some mechanical command involved such as twisting the muscles or something.

I don't think they can't have their Plate appear or disappear on them as former Radiants used to do.

 

There is some level of mental command:

Quote

He [Dalinar] looked down at her, then mentally unlatched his right gauntlet, letting it drop to the ground with a plank.

WoK Chapter 69: 'Justice' (Dalinar's meeting with Navani after the rescue from the Tower.)

However, other people can help with the process (e.g. Kaladin in WoR on the dueling ground - iirc there's even some mention of 'straps' there). The way I imagine it, mental commands are the usual way for fully functioning shardplate, while there is a mechanical backup for locked plate.

But mostly, I agree: I don't think they could make their plate do what the Radiants did. Like with the blades: all can summon the blades they have bonded, but only Syl and Pattern can change form and size according to current needs.

2 hours ago, Jondesu said:

But we know they can command parts to loosen and come off (Adolin and I think Dalinar both do that). I bet they can command the visor to go opaque or transparent at least, since it's likely just unconscious commands the way it works now.

jW

First part: agreed. Second part: could be, but to me that doesn't sound like they give any command, conscious or unconscious, but rather like the usual behavior of current-day shardplate. I think they are stuck on this part-transparency once the visor is closed, just like the blades are stuck to a definite form.

 

What I wonder about every time I read the scene is Kaladin's use of a helm as a gauntlet / shield during the duel. He wears no other plate to support it, while Dalinar has to let go of his gauntlet during the battle of the Tower after the connection to the rest of the plate is lost. I have two theories but can't decide which is the more likely: 

1) Dalinar's gauntlet might still have worked as a shield in this way but didn't fully function anymore (giving him strength and feeling in his fingers), something Kaladin never needed or expected from that helm-gauntlet, but Dalinar rather went without a gauntlet than be encumbered in this way

2) Kaladin could only wield it like he did because of his enhanced strength courtesy of the stormlight.

Maybe something of both? Any other ideas?

[antgrgmn he/him]

I thought that Kaladin was feeding it stormlight @Erklitt

 

[maxal she/her]

1 minute ago, Erklitt said:

 

There is some level of mental command:

However, other people can help with the process (e.g. Kaladin in WoR on the dueling ground - iirc there's even some mention of 'straps' there). The way I imagine it, mental commands are the usual way for fully functioning shardplate, while there is a mechanical backup for locked plate.

But mostly, I agree: I don't think they could make their plate do what the Radiants did. Like with the blades: all can summon the blades they have bonded, but only Syl and Pattern can change form and size according to current needs.

First part: agreed. Second part: could be, but to me that doesn't sound like they give any command, conscious or unconscious, but rather like the usual behavior of current-day shardplate. I think they are stuck on this part-transparency once the visor is closed, just like the blades are stuck to a definite form.

 

What I wonder about every time I read the scene is Kaladin's use of a helm as a gauntlet / shield during the duel. He wears no other plate to support it, while Dalinar has to let go of his gauntlet during the battle of the Tower after the connection to the rest of the plate is lost. I have two theories but can't decide which is the more likely: 

1) Dalinar's gauntlet might still have worked as a shield in this way but didn't fully function anymore (giving him strength and feeling in his fingers), something Kaladin never needed or expected from that helm-gauntlet, but Dalinar rather went without a gauntlet than be encumbered in this way

2) Kaladin could only wield it like he did because of his enhanced strength courtesy of the stormlight.

Maybe something of both? Any other ideas?

Thanks for the mental command quotes: I had forgotten about those, thinking some mechanical mechanism was also involved.

Your second questioning however was answered by Adolin during his fight with Eshonai. He loses his arm Plate and he says he has to let his gauntlet go because it was too heavy for him without the arm Plate to support it. In other words, neither Adolin or Dalinar can support the weight on one Plate part without the others to yield them strength. Kaladin has no such limitation as he had strength enhancing stormlight to palliate to this problem. 

[Erklitt she/her]

25 minutes ago, antgrgmn said:

I thought that Kaladin was feeding it stormlight @Erklitt

Yes, but usual plate gets its stormlight from its gemstones, so as far as I can see, that matches: shardplate always needs stormlight, either you provide infused gems or you provide an infused Radiant.

35 minutes ago, maxal said:

Thanks for the mental command quotes: I had forgotten about those, thinking some mechanical mechanism was also involved.

Your second questioning however was answered by Adolin during his fight with Eshonai. He loses his arm Plate and he says he has to let his gauntlet go because it was too heavy for him without the arm Plate to support it. In other words, neither Adolin or Dalinar can support the weight on one Plate part without the others to yield them strength. Kaladin has no such limitation as he had strength enhancing stormlight to palliate to this problem. 

Thanks, you're right. I only had one quote in mind where it said about Dalinar that the 'gauntlet wouldn't work properly now' (roughly quoted from memory) but with Eshonai the text clearly states it was too heavy.

[Emerald101 he/him]

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

just like the blades are stuck to a definite form.

Just a little side note: this is technically incorrect. Blades will change shape slightly over time. (Source)

Quote

RIT

Alright, glowing Shardplate and retractable helmets. Is that a similar origin of the Shardblades—

BRANDON SANDERSON

There's a similarity, but they are also very different.

RIT

Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and how they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly

(emphasis mine)

Edited July 3, 2016 by Emerald101
better phrasing/formatting

[Erklitt she/her]

3 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

Just a little side note: this is technically incorrect. Blades will change shape slightly over time. (Source)

(emphasis mine)

Thanks! One more time I deplore the fact I don't have access to theoryland... Thanks all the more for the full quote!

[Emerald101 he/him]

1 minute ago, Erklitt said:

Thanks! One more time I deplore the fact I don't have access to theoryland... Thanks all the more for the full quote!

I do what I can.