Long Game 22: Corenne al'Daishar

[Elbereth she/her]

Nyali there's so many other instances where the eliminator kill could've not gone through. I don't think it was a good idea to claim just to lynch one possibility.

We don't even know how many channelers are out there.

The Whitecloaked person could've attempted the eliminator kill themselves.

Anyone targeting or redirected to the Whitecloaked person could've made the kill.

The eliminators could've just made no kill at all, which nobody is considering.

What does how many channelers are out there have anything to do it?

We've discussed Elodin making the eliminator kill, and agreed it's a bit less likely since he's so high in suspicion right now.

Do you really think the eliminators would target Elodin with their kill? That'd be a terrible idea. And how many Ta'veren do you really think there are? And how likely is it that multiple Ta'veren redirected someone onto Elodin?

And yes, I did consider them making no kill at all (EDIT: here). And I think it's much less likely since they're not in a comfortable enough position not to be killing given that they just lost their Forsaken Day 1.

So... none of those alternate options are really valid, in my opinion.

Sigs and titles. Also I assume that Gunshy has read Wilsons sig, and looked through some old games. Those make it evident that both Wilson and Meta are scary players.

Yes, but where? Point me to one sig/title that contains either of those phrases. The closest I've found is Wilson being "Brightness Ascendant". Which doesn't exactly convey the same thing. The quotes in her sig are better, but even so I don't think they're quite enough to describe her/Meta as "setting people on edge". EDIT: And reading past games is possible, but definitely not something you should assume. (Plus, neither of them have even played much in recent games, so I'm not sure that you would automatically get the idea that they're scary from reading a past game.)

Anyway. I think it's better at this point to wait until Gunshy shows up and explains him(?)self.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Elbereth (Lomion)

[Nyali she/her]

Nyali there's so many other instances where the eliminator kill could've not gone through. I don't think it was a good idea to claim just to lynch one possibility.

We don't even know how many channelers are out there.

The Whitecloaked person could've attempted the eliminator kill themselves.

Anyone targeting or redirected to the Whitecloaked person could've made the kill.

The eliminators could've just made no kill at all, which nobody is considering.

I agree. See my prior post (the one after yours) - but, if I'm going to be killed soon with all this suspicion on me and two town vigs who are willing to kill night one (*shudder* - on the forum I used to play on, vigs were considered so strong and making games so swingy that it was regulated to at most one town vig per game regardless of size with a single kill attempt only. This is very different!), I might as well get the most mileage out of what info I have.

[Hellscythe he/him]

What does how many channelers are out there have anything to do it?

We've discussed Elodin making the eliminator kill, and agreed it's a bit less likely since he's so high in suspicion right now.

Do you really think the eliminators would target Elodin with their kill? That'd be a terrible idea. And how many Ta'veren do you really think there are? And how likely is it that multiple Ta'veren redirected someone onto Elodin?

And yes, I did consider them making no kill at all. And I think it's much less likely since they're not in a comfortable enough position not to be killing given that they just lost their Forsaken Day 1.

So... none of those alternate options are really valid, in my opinion.

Channelers have two different types of role blocks? And if there are 5 channelers any one of their role blocks could've been the successful block on the eliminators as well.

NOW Elodin has suspicion on him. That has nothing to do with last night and him deciding whether he'd make the kill or not.

I honestly don't know if they'd target Elodin. I don't know who is on the team. I wouldn't but I'm not an eliminator so I don't get a vote.

I don't see why it's not a valid option. They've gotten so much information, claiming and distrust out of it I think they've made a great play if that's really what happened.

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Another thing I noticed is that he tried to discourage discussion over the corrupted despite no discussion about the corrupted occuring. However, if he was detained, then he can't be Fain, so I'm not sure if that tells anything useful.

 

Good point, I hadn't thought about that! We also know that Bard can't be Fain either because of this. Of course, it appears likely we're gonna lynch one of them regardless, but that is an interesting point.

 

I would like to emphasize caution about roleclaiming in the thread people. So far we've already had like, 3 or 4? Plus it feels like the direction we're going is asking for more roleclaims to happen, so I felt like pointing it out. Even if you don't have an important role, you claiming allows the Darkfriends and Fain to narrow down who does have the important roles.

[Nyali she/her]

It's still against Fair Play rules to copy & paste from PMs, regardless of what has happened.

 

Edited by Gamma Fiend.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gamma Fiend

[Dustbringer12 he/him]

 

Rubik, I look forward to your list then! Why are you gonna wait to vote though? I suggest voting as early as possible, because, IMO, that's what generates discussion best. You don't have to be certain about your suspicions to vote, otherwise hardly anyone would ever vote and nothing would get done!

I am waiting because I have insufficient data.  In day one, I made several allegations against people who are probably innocent, and I would not like to repeat that mistake.  Nyali just happened to come out at the top while ranking players (though now, as noted, she is second behind bard) and both of them are at the bottom for a bunch of little things.  I don't think I can really accuse either of them being honest with myself.

 

Edit: fixing a phrasing that could be interpreted wrong

Edited June 7, 2016 by RubiksCube

[Hellscythe he/him]

Sent to me just now:

Edited by Gamma

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gamma Fiend

[Dustbringer12 he/him]

 

Sent to me just now:

Edited by Gamma

 

 

edit: fixing a repeat on the quote inside the quote.

 

second edit: I feel to some extent that this is partially my fault.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gamma Fiend

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Do you really have to leave over this Nyali? It's fixed now and it shouldn't really affect all that much.

[Elbereth she/her]

Channelers have two different types of role blocks? And if there are 5 channelers any one of their role blocks could've been the successful block on the eliminators as well.

Five channelers, each with a Warder as well? That's... really, really unlikely. And there's also the necessity of those channelers that do exist also using their power last night. And none of them (or their Warders) coming forward to counterclaim a roleblock.

NOW Elodin has suspicion on him. That has nothing to do with last night and him deciding whether he'd make the kill or not.

Look back at last night. Elodin was the primary suggestion for wolf-killing. Don't tell me he didn't have suspicion on him.

I honestly don't know if they'd target Elodin. I don't know who is on the team. I wouldn't but I'm not an eliminator so I don't get a vote.

Well, I'm pretty sure we won't get anywhere if we assume the eliminators were stupid.

I don't see why it's not a valid option. They've gotten so much information, claiming and distrust out of it I think they've made a great play if that's really what happened.

Because they're in a bad position right now. They need to be reducing numbers as fast as possible, not just sitting back and let the village kill each other. It seems likely that at least one of them has come under suspicion since Sart died. And I seriously doubt they'd have known what would come of it if they hadn't killed.

Now, Wilson's suggestion (none of them having actions available to kill) is certainly possible. But deliberately choosing not to kill when they could? That seems unlikely to me.

 

Sent to me just now:

Edited by Gamma

...Storm it.

I am waiting because I have insufficient data.  In day one, I made several allegations against people who are probably innocent, and I would not like to repeat that mistake.  Nyali just happened to come out at the top while ranking players (though now, as noted, she is second behind bard) and both of them are at the bottom for a bunch of little things.  I don't think I can really accuse either of them being honest with myself.

 

Edit: fixing a phrasing that could be interpreted wrong

That's the thing about SE, though. Mislynches and mistakes happen. They happen a lot. You can revise your assumptions about players. Votes can always be retracted. But the way discussion happens is through the lynch, really. So even if you don't distrust someone all that much. Vote on them anyway! That way they can respond to you, and you (and everyone else) can get a better sense of their alignment, hopefully. It's okay if you make a mistake, or if you accuse the wrong person. It happens all the time. You just learn from it, and get better.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gamma Fiend

[Dustbringer12 he/him]

As a note ahead of time: I have stuff I need to be working on, and will probably not be posting for the rest of the day, my time (MDT).

[AliasSheep]

Wait. What happened with Nyali

[Elbereth she/her]

Essentially, Gamma was supposed to have told her that her action failed, and he forgot until now. So she claimed for nothing, and is understandably irritated as a result.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

So I want to apologize for any errors or confusion in regards to any rulings or clarifications I have given, or anything misleading. I have been doing my best to keep on top of everything and keeping it all consistent. That is my bad, as GM, and I should've been more on top of things. With that said.

Nobody, for any reason should ever copy & paste anything sent to them by the GM in the thread or to other players. If you have an issue, please take it up with the Impartial Mod for the game, that is why we have them. Apologies again, and I will keep doing my best to be as diligent as possible with everything going forward. Thank you.

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Well, I don't think Nyali should have been so upset at to leave the game, but I'll let the Gamma and Alv figure out what to do with that. I think we should try and focus on something other than that while that gets worked out.

 

Since it appears that Nyali's action was roleblocked(or something?), I guess I'm not so suspicious of Bard anymore. Elodin, still suspicious. Bard, not so much. I think I'll go back and look through Elodin's posts and do that big long post about why I think he's evil next.

 

I would like to hear some analysis from you Wilson, if you really need someone to ask you for it.

 

Meta, I'd like to hear from you as well, since you haven't posted in a while.

 

(Although I realize that Wilson and Meta are both Mods of this forum so they might be preoccupied with the Nyali situation, so no rush or anything.)

Edited June 7, 2016 by TheMightyLopen

[Conquestor he/him]

That's terrible Nyali! I believe that Elodin is evil, because he did so much D1 and if he is going to be protected at night time and time again, then it will be best to lynch him. Another reason to lynch him is so we stop using a lot of our resources on him, if you hadn't noticed, all discussion has been about him (like Sart) and he is either being protected at night or we are counteracting each other.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Conquestor

[Elbereth she/her]

Um. I... don't think we can assume he'll be protected every single night just because he was detained once. And honestly? Him being detained every night as protection wouldn't be so bad, because then at least we'd know he didn't take any actions, and if he is a Dreamwalker it'd keep PMs alive indefinitely while rendering him mostly harmless (if he's an eliminator).

And also, all of the discussion has not been about him, just like not all discussion was about Sart D1. There's been plenty of other topics, although I agree he's the focus. There was discussion of Bard. There was discussion of Gunshy. There was mention of me, and Straw. He may predominate, but that doesn't mean nothing else has been mentioned.

Okay, I'm going to the beach. Hope nothing else explodes while I'm gone.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Elbereth (Lomion)

[Conquestor he/him]

Um. I... don't think we can assume he'll be protected every single night just because he was detained once. And honestly? Him being detained every night as protection wouldn't be so bad, because then at least we'd know he didn't take any actions, and if he is a Dreamwalker it'd keep PMs alive indefinitely while rendering him mostly harmless (if he's an eliminator).

And also, all of the discussion has not been about him, just like not all discussion was about Sart D1. There's been plenty of other topics, although I agree he's the focus. There was discussion of Bard. There was discussion of Gunshy. There was mention of me, and Straw. He may predominate, but that doesn't mean nothing else has been mentioned.

Okay, I'm going to the beach. Hope nothing else explodes while I'm gone.

Your right, but discussion has been mostly about him and it has been confusing. If he is a dreamwalker it might be best to keep him alive, but pms aren't as useful this game anyway. I know it sounds like I am downplaying pms, but first of all, there are no day pms, second, Fain could corrupt a person you were talking to and use that against you. It also gives some info.

[little wilson she/her]

Sigs and titles. Also I assume that Gunshy has read Wilsons sig, and looked through some old games. Those make it evident that both Wilson and Meta are scary players.

 

You're assuming he reads sigs for one thing (a number of people skip right over sigs or even ignore them as a whole) and you're also assuming he took the time to read past games and those games he took the time to read happened to be the games that Meta and I played in (as El said, we haven't played in many games recently). I would venture to say that he didn't read any games. Not everyone is like Elbereth. In fact, from what I've seen, most players who join the games have maybe followed along with one game prior. Maybe.  Possibly more if they know someone. Now, Gunshy does know someone. Bugsy. Let's see what Bugsy has to say about this topic:

 

Actually, it might be a valid point because he joined literally for this game, and his only exposure in the forums has been to these threads relevant to the game. I'll have to go back and check some of the context, but we shouldn't dismiss it completely out of hand.

 

Oh, interesting. His only exposure to the forums has been threads relevant to this game. No past games. So how is he getting the idea that we're scary and not just well-known? Well-known does not immediately equate to scary. The only quote in my sig that would give people the idea that I'm a scary player is the one from Kas. The other two don't really give any indication one way or the other.

 

Lastly, Elodin, why do you care so much about whether we think Gunshy is evil? Worried about your teammate?

 

I would like to hear some analysis from you Wilson, if you really need someone to ask you for it.

 

For you, Lopen, I got off my phone and booted up my laptop. Though I'm not sure how much analysis I can really do, since that was specific to Nyali, who has apparently bailed on the game, which renders my analysis of her pointless, not only because she's done but also because I see no reason why an eliminator would bail on the game, so my read of her was wrong--which I was actually started to collect evidence for so that kind of makes me sad for the time I spent on that, but it's probably for the best that I didn't pull a MaillLynch on Nyali by writing up an essay about why she's evil.....though it's been a while since I've done one of those essays. Maybe I should do one for Maill for old times' sake. What do you say, Maill? Do you miss my essays condemning you to death?

 

Anyway. The person I suspect most now is Gunshy, but I don't really want to do anything with that until he posts something, so I'm going to wait to do further analysis on him until then. And if he doesn't post, I'd highly recommend him as a target for a wolf-kill.

[Haelbarde he/him]

You're assuming he reads sigs for one thing (a number of people skip right over sigs or even ignore them as a whole) and you're also assuming he took the time to read past games and those games he took the time to read happened to be the games that Meta and I played in (as El said, we haven't played in many games recently). I would venture to say that he didn't read any games. Not everyone is like Elbereth. In fact, from what I've seen, most players who join the games have maybe followed along with one game prior. Maybe.  

 

Pointing out that when on mobile, sigs are disabled anyway, and that while I read 4-5 games before playing my first game, I'd agree that most players don't do that when they join up 

 

Oh, interesting. His only exposure to the forums has been threads relevant to this game. No past games. So how is he getting the idea that we're scary and not just well-known? Well-known does not immediately equate to scary. The only quote in my sig that would give people the idea that I'm a scary player is the one from Kas. The other two don't really give any indication one way or the other.

This makes me sad. Warm fuzzy feelings should be associated with the Brightness Ascendant, not trembling fear..

Edited June 7, 2016 by Haelbarde

[Master Elodin]

Ok, Wilson. First, my assumption was completely reasonable. Second, you deliberately cut out the edit. But enough about him, let's talk about you. You are nearly cleared of being a Darkfriend, but there's one thing that you aren't cleared of: being Padan Fain. Now, let's go back and look at your actions for a second, and see what they reveal.

First Day:

You lynch Sart. This is good for us, as he was a Forsaken. But what was your initial reason for lynching him? Semantics. At least to me, it seemed like you were searching for a reason to lynch someone without much contest. This alone makes me suspicious. Then, the second Day rolls around.

Second Day: Hmm, ok, you're voting for Gunshy. I wonder why this is. Oh! I see. It's another semantically constructed reason! Better yet, one that was could be interpreted in at least ten different ways. For some reason, you decided to immediately interpret it in the most damning way possible. And now you suggest that a Wolf-Brother kills him. No, you strongly suggest it. Is this because you want him to die even if you can't convince everyone to lynch him? Seems likely.

So, there you have it, ladies and gents. My strongest suspicion for the day.. I give you.. Wilson! To sum up, she has repeatedly tried to lynch people with no reason, and also recently suggested killing one with no real reason. All of these things suggest that she's a Darkfriend, but she can't be one. Therefore, the only logical solution is that she is Padan Fain!

EDIT: Dangit, I can't make Padan pink!

EDIT: Thanks Hael. It's not perfect but it works.

EDIT: Yay! It works!

Edited June 8, 2016 by Master Elodin

[Haelbarde he/him]

EDIT: Dangit, I can't make Padan pink!

Try

[color=purple]Fain[/color]

Edit: 

Now to actually respond to the content of your post:

 

Second Day: Hmm, ok, you're voting for Gunshy. I wonder why this is. Oh! I see. It's another semantically constructed reason! Better yet, one that was could be interpreted in at least ten different ways. For some reason, you decided to immediately interpret it in the most damning way possible. And now you suggest that a Wolf-Brother kills him. No, you strongly suggest it. Is this because you want him to die even if you can't convince everyone to lynch him? Seems likely.

I took what she said to mean that she wanted to hear from Gunshy, but if he continues to be inactive, he would make a good candidate for a wolf kill - Bugsy indicated that he thought Gunshy's technical problems were now resolved, so there was nothing preventing him from posting any more. I think it's reasonable to suggest a player who has been called out to be wolf killed if they don't respond (I mean, we've still got ~24 hours of the cycle left - it's plenty of time)

 

EDIT 2;

Re: the colour - thing is that Gamma used a custom pink the code is #ff00ff, i.e.

[color=#ff00ff]Padan Fain[/color]

Edited June 7, 2016 by Haelbarde

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Maybe I should do one for Maill for old times' sake. What do you say, Maill? Do you miss my essays condemning you to death?

If El misses my QF15 (edit: QF14, I mean) lynch strategy.

So, from what I gather with the situation with Nyali, Gamma forgot to inform her that she was roleblocked and she c/ped that PM in here, which is now edited out? I assume that post also had her deciding to leave the game?

First, Nyali, sorry about that. It sucks when that happens. But, GMing is a lot. There were multiple times in LG20 where I PMd someone after rollover, sometimes a day or two after, forgetting to tell them that they received an item or something. Heck, I even killed Burnt on accident. these things happen and, while frustrating, shouldn't be cause to quit a game. I hope you come back and can continue to help.

Back to the game now. I think Elodin may be evil, yes. Though, that doesn't mean you should stop playing like this, Elodin! He's probably in my top three suspects, along with Bard and Meta(which I still can't explain).

Yes, I know. Nyali was blocked, so it means nothing about Bard. Ah, but it does. Now we know that both Elodin and Bard were detained or that Nyali specifically was roleblocked. Granted, now that I'm actually writing this, it doesn't seem to help much. I still am curious, as now we have two possible Whitecloaks.

Nyali, if you do come back, can you say if you were detained or just unsuccessful?

Orlok's Channeler, I propose you come out. You are going to die in two days. Nothing to do about that. Why would the Darkfriends waste a kill on you? Why would Fain corrupt you? I propose you inform us if you used Water or Air last night as it may clear up quite a bit.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Mailliw73

[Seonid he/him]

Well this has been an interesting discussion. Sorry for taking so long to write up my thoughts on it - every time I thought of something I wanted to say, somebody else would post changing things significantly, so eventually I decided to wait until things calmed down a little before posting my take.

 

I'm surprised that discussion of Bard dropped so significantly; the fact that Nyali's action failed could have been a roleblock or could have been Bard being detained - I believe that Gamma has said that the GM response to both of those situations would be identical. If Bard was detained, then we are back at the same situation we had before Nyali told us her action failed.

 

Actually, I'd like to hear a response from Bard. I think we're dropping this too fast. I'll likely bring my vote back to Elodin before the end of the cycle, unless Bard's response brings up more suspicion, but I don't want to let him off the hook so easily.

 

Finally, I agree with Wilson that Nyali is likely village. Also, Wilson, I'm interested to know why you think that Gunshy is more suspicious than Elodin.

 

Honestly, with Elodin's claim of Dreamwalker, I feel that the scenario you constructed falls apart. Why would an evil!Whitecloak detain Elodin if Elodin could go Dreamwalker? Elodin's Dreamwalk would have blocked scans and wolfbrother kills on him with the same efficacy as a detention, not to mention given a more plausible reason for failing actions. And without a Whitecloak (or at least one targeting Elodin - this isn't evidence that there isn't a Whitecloak on the team) as the 3rd member of the Eliminator team (hypothesized to be Gunshy, Elodin, and one other), Gunshy is not left as the only one who could have made the kill - and therefore his computer being dead no longer points to that possibility.

 

Now, I'm more than willing to admit I could be wrong - after all, I don't have any evidence to convince me of Gunshy's innocence. I'm not emotionally invested in him not being a Darkfriend. But I don't think that your argument points to Gunshy's guilt anywhere near as strongly as you think it does, and there are - by my reckoning - much stronger leads out there to follow up on.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Seonid

[Metacognition he/him]

Sorry I haven't been on recently everyone. The last few days have been busier than expected. I'm hoping that from here on out, I'll be good to go by tomorrow. 

 

After my reread the other night, my two biggest suspicions of people that seemed to be trying to save Sarah are Cenn and Ruon. Ruon in particular wound up switching his vote almost as much as Ba'Alzamon did and yet no one has really brought that up as they have with Ba'Alzamon. To me, it seemed like he was more than willing to hop on any vote that got close enough to possibly save Sarah. 

I'm voting for Ruon because he's still my biggest suspect; not because of the miscalculation from today's events. 

 

Also, Jak. While I don't necessarily trust him, unless we want the mayor role to just be up in the air, we need more votes for mayor. It only takes one vote to change the mayor and we've already had a few votes (some of them for Ruon no less). So, if you don't have someone else in mind for mayor, might as well stick with the one we have right now. 

 

 

 Therefore, the only logical solution is that she is Padan Fain!
 

 

I'll be honest, I've had the same thought. I even asked Keland about it last night. I'm not saying I actually think this is the case, but that I could see it. Having both Keland and myself be Villagers, some could consider that pretty powerful in and of itself. I could see Gamma balancing things by putting her not as a Darkfriend, but on a team by herself for awhile. But this is very metagame reasoning, so I don't give it too much weight.

 

As far as Gunshy and Keland's arguments for it, I could see it. It does seem to be a bit of a slip and that's exactly the type of thing we're looking for. Just depends on how much Bugsy would talk about the subforum with Gunshy before getting them to sign up. I'd like to hear from Gunshy before we wind up lynching them for it though.