Kel and Kal

[Imaginative Honorspren]

*Spoilers*

Have you ever noticed how similar Kelsier and Kaladin are? They are both leaders of a 'team' - for Kelsier, it's the crew, and for Kaladin it's Bridge Four. Kelsier is encouraging the skaa to rise up, and Kaladin is the one coming up with ways to keep Bridge Four alive. Even their names are almost the same - Kel and Kal!

 

Can anyone think of more characters who seem the same?

Edited April 16, 2016 by Imaginative Honorspren

[Purelake Earthquake]

Sazed and Jasnah are fairly similar.  Both are viewed as wise and knowledgeable.  One's an atheist, one's a believer.  Both are hiding awesome magical powers that aren't wildly known about in the world at the time.  Both escape the bounds of the physical realm.

I kind of want to say that Vasher and TenSoon, particularly Era 2 TenSoon, are similar.  But I have kind of a hard time reading them.  Especially TenSoon.

 

General Cosmere spoilers

In their first appearance they'd already been alive a long time (TenSoon as a third generation, Vasher as one of the 5 Scholars).  Both appear later in different books kind of down in the dumps: Vasher without Nightblood and TenSoon seemed kind of depressed.  Both killed someone they'd rather not have had to.

 

Both Kell and Kal had their lives defined by a tragic event in their past.  Particularly, loosing someone they cared deeply about.  Kal seems like he's almost as much of a survivor as Kelsier was.  Both are driven by vengeance and have a nasty, if understandable, hatred of the upper class.

[Voidus]

Kal actually cares about people though, Kel is significantly more sociopathic. 

[natc]

Kal actually cares about people though, Kel is significantly more sociopathic.

He's just ruthlessly classist to be honest. He does care about some people.

Not as much as he cares about himself obviously but hey.

[Yata]

To be honest I think that everything Kel did is quite all to himself.

 

Yeah He was the begin to an "rightful" revolution, but in the end... He did all for his own hurt ego.

[Arrae]

If you commit a selfless act of self-sacrifice for a definitely-not-selfless reason, is it still "right"?

[Vissy]

I don't know and I don't care, I just want to see Kelsier worldhop to Roshar and kick Drifter's butt.

[Imaginative Honorspren]

What definitely-not-selfless reason do you have in mind? It seems to me that Kel does care - when Yeden got the rebels slaughtered, Kel wanted to attack the army to save them. It was only Vin who held him back. Also, he had Mare's flower. He wanted to make the world the way she had imagined it. Yes, he was a bit selfish, but I think his ultimate motivation was selfless.

[Vissy]

I agree with that. To me, it seems that Kelsier has a strange mixture of mock narcissism, an exaggerated sense of worthiness and a great deal of care and love for his fellow people.

[Voidus]

What definitely-not-selfless reason do you have in mind? It seems to me that Kel does care - when Yeden got the rebels slaughtered, Kel wanted to attack the army to save them. It was only Vin who held him back. Also, he had Mare's flower. He wanted to make the world the way she had imagined it. Yes, he was a bit selfish, but I think his ultimate motivation was selfless.

His goal was selfless, his motivation was certainly not. Brandon has openly stated that Kel is basically a sociopath. He's charismatic and can be kind but he's narcissistic to a fault and doesn't care who gets hurt to achieve his goal Vin is one of the only people he actually genuinely shows a selfless attitude for.

[Vissy]

He has shades of both narcissism and sociopathy, but that he cares proves he is neither.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Varangian

[Purelake Earthquake]

It seems like every thread about Kell eventually turns into this discussion.

 

How good where his motivations?  Honestly, it's a mixture.  To say he did the things he did only to serve himself is as ridiculous as saying that he did them all for the greater good.  A person can do things for multiple reasons simultaneously.  He wanted to make the world a better place, he wanted to look after his friends, but he also wanted a lot of things for himself.  He wanted vengeance, he wanted to prove to himself that he could do it, he wanted to stick it to the man, he wanted to jump around in the mists and kill people.  (Sometimes people seem like they think Kell was all in it for the Survivorism worship, but I don't really get the vibe that that was a super strong motivator for him, not as much as some of the other self-interested ones.  Though he probably gets a good kick out of it.)

 

I would also posit that as his arc progresses he moves closer towards the good motivation side of the spectrum.   Learning to accept Elend, I feel, was a big step up for him.  Kelsier was lucky, those motivations were pretty well aligned for him.  We learn more about people when their self-interested desires and their more altruistic goals don't line up as well.

 

Anyway I think it's best to say that his motivations fall somewhere in the middle, not necessarily at the middle, just anywhere between the two extremes.  You could go on for pages and pages trying to decide where that ratio lies.

[Imaginative Honorspren]

I think I agree. He's a difficult character to understand, but I think you have it right.

[Ookla the Absent]

His goal was selfless, his motivation was certainly not. Brandon has openly stated that Kel is basically a sociopath. He's charismatic and can be kind but he's narcissistic to a fault and doesn't care who gets hurt to achieve his goal Vin is one of the only people he actually genuinely shows a selfless attitude for.

Yeah, it's pointed out that "in another time and place, Kelsier would be thought a madman" but because of circumstances, he instead became a hero.

[hoidhunter]

Personally, I love a hero who is completley unhinged.  It makes for a much more intersting story.  Between the two of them, I like Kel a lot more.  Kal has his great moments, but he's so whiney.  I think he could use a little bit of the "smile through difficult times" that Kel does so insanely well.

[Jondesu]

I wonder if that stark contrast wasn't part of why Brandon decided to write Kaladin that way.  He'd already done the hero who was upbeat and joking when he shouldn't have been able to, now he's got the hero who barely knows how to smile, let alone joke.  It's a great exercise in characters, and the fact that it fits so well in each of their stories means it's not a bad decision.

 

jW

[asterion137]

Terris and Shinovar have always seemed really similar to me. (isolated countries, different customs, odd, enigmatic people, not warlike at all)

[Vissy]

That is true. I hope for this perception to change when we learn more about the Shin people, though. So let's keep waiting for Stormlight 3! It'll probably answer our questions.

[KidWayne]

If you commit a selfless act of self-sacrifice for a definitely-not-selfless reason, is it still "right"?

Journey before Destination, friend. I'd say no.

---

Warning: Random subject change ...that may involve Batman

On the other hand, isn't it kind of a major trope in any hero story that the hero - if he hangs around long enough - becomes the villain?

Heroes tend to save the day by either (1) preventing events or actions that would up end the status quo or (2) rescuing innocent people from oppression/victimization. Heroes that accomplish #2 by overthrowing a tyrant soon find themselves in a position of authority or influence and they maintain that position by repetitively accomplishing #1. It takes a hero like Batman - who maintains anonymity and avoids directly wielding political/social power - to avoid this trap. (SIDE NOTE > I just realized that Hoid has both of those qualities and that he likes to operate "from the shadows" in a way not unlike Batman... hmm.) However, it can be argued that even Batman simply upholds the status quo of a capitalist plutocracy by enforcing laws made by politicians whose campaigns are primarily financed by contributions from the wealthy. He generally avoids being labeled this way though because he generally saves more people from being victimized than he protects the fortunes of the wealthy.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system...

My point is that it's hardly abnormal for Sanderson to take a hero revolutionary and slowly mold him into a villain, we probably should have seen it coming since Kelsier has the makings of an awesome bad guy.

Edited April 27, 2016 by KidWayne

[Vissy]

Honestly if that happened, I'd probably just end up rooting for him. Kelsier for next Odium Vessel!

Edited April 27, 2016 by Varangian

[Stormgate]

You take a decent villain, and they make an amazing hero. Vice versa, a decent hero could be an amazing villain.

[CaptainRyan]

If Kelsier become a full-blown villain I will be pretty disappointed/upset. Kelsier is an anti-hero imo, not a villain.

 

That being said, Sanderson might have been doing some foreshadowing by having Uncle Ladrian (Mr. Set) talk to Wax about how Wax would have hunted the Survivor's crew and imprisoned them. A hero in one setting might just be a villain in another, no?

[Blackhoof]

I have a hard time believing that Wax would have happily gone along with the Final Empire, however. He has too much internal goodness. Like Elend, he would have despised it.

 

At the very least, despised wanton killing of Skaa.

[Voidus]

If Kelsier become a full-blown villain I will be pretty disappointed/upset. Kelsier is an anti-hero imo, not a villain.

 

That being said, Sanderson might have been doing some foreshadowing by having Uncle Ladrian (Mr. Set) talk to Wax about how Wax would have hunted the Survivor's crew and imprisoned them. A hero in one setting might just be a villain in another, no?

That's kind of a low blow though, the crew were all thieves, yes they eventually changed into rebels but Wax can't burn Atium, there's no way he could know that. So even in the FE I doubt he'd really be a villain, perhaps an obstacle the crew would need to overcome but not a villain.

[Pathfinder]

Journey before Destination, friend. I'd say no.

---

Warning: Random subject change ...that may involve Batman

On the other hand, isn't it kind of a major trope in any hero story that the hero - if he hangs around long enough - becomes the villain?

Heroes tend to save the day by either (1) preventing events or actions that would up end the status quo or (2) rescuing innocent people from oppression/victimization. Heroes that accomplish #2 by overthrowing a tyrant soon find themselves in a position of authority or influence and they maintain that position by repetitively accomplishing #1. It takes a hero like Batman - who maintains anonymity and avoids directly wielding political/social power - to avoid this trap. (SIDE NOTE > I just realized that Hoid has both of those qualities and that he likes to operate "from the shadows" in a way not unlike Batman... hmm.) However, it can be argued that even Batman simply upholds the status quo of a capitalist plutocracy by enforcing laws made by politicians whose campaigns are primarily financed by contributions from the wealthy. He generally avoids being labeled this way though because he generally saves more people from being victimized than he protects the fortunes of the wealthy.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system...

My point is that it's hardly abnormal for Sanderson to take a hero revolutionary and slowly mold him into a villain, we probably should have seen it coming since Kelsier has the makings of an awesome bad guy.

Just a little nitpick. Batman does directly wield political/social power and uses it. Just that is when he is Bruce Wayne the head of a multi billion dollar company.