Nyali she/her Posted April 12, 2016 Report Share Posted April 12, 2016 So, while re-reading The Way of Kings, something seriously confused me about the timing of the founding of the Knights Radiant and the writing of the in-universe book "The Way of Kings." I looked through this forum, but couldn't find an answer, so I'm sorry if it's out there and I just missed it. The text states that the Knights Radiant based their First Ideal off of Nohadon's book, "The Way of Kings." But, a key part of Nohadon's book was writing about his journey by foot from Abamar to Urithiru. I could be misremembering or misunderstanding, but I thought Urithiru was built to be the seat of the Knights Radiant, built specifically to not be part of any of the Silver Kingdoms, but a place linked to all of them via the Oathgates. If the Knights Radiant based their oaths on "The Way of Kings," then "The Way of Kings" had to have been written before they were founded. But, if they built the city of Urithiru after they were founded, using Surgebinding to construct the Oathgates, then how does that work? I feel like I'm missing or misunderstanding some key point, like the Oathgates pre-dated the Knights Radiant, or that non-Herald Surgebinders existed prior to the creation of the Knights Radiant as an order and simply didn't have the First Ideal (it's not like Radiants had to actually speak the First Ideal to gain power like the other Immortal Words). Or maybe the city of Urithiru was not built to be the home base of the Knights Radiant, but was built to be a city that linked all of the kingdoms together, and the Knights Radiant just decided to use it as the location for their base of operations when they were founded. I dunno. Could anyone please point out the detail that I have wrong or am missing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted April 12, 2016 Report Share Posted April 12, 2016 So, while re-reading The Way of Kings, something seriously confused me about the timing of the founding of the Knights Radiant and the writing of the in-universe book "The Way of Kings." I looked through this forum, but couldn't find an answer, so I'm sorry if it's out there and I just missed it. The text states that the Knights Radiant based their First Ideal off of Nohadon's book, "The Way of Kings." But, a key part of Nohadon's book was writing about his journey by foot from Abamar to Urithiru. I could be misremembering or misunderstanding, but I thought Urithiru was built to be the seat of the Knights Radiant, built specifically to not be part of any of the Silver Kingdoms, but a place linked to all of them via the Oathgates. If the Knights Radiant based their oaths on "The Way of Kings," then "The Way of Kings" had to have been written before they were founded. But, if they built the city of Urithiru after they were founded, using Surgebinding to construct the Oathgates, then how does that work? I feel like I'm missing or misunderstanding some key point, like the Oathgates pre-dated the Knights Radiant, or that non-Herald Surgebinders existed prior to the creation of the Knights Radiant as an order and simply didn't have the First Ideal (it's not like Radiants had to actually speak the First Ideal to gain power like the other Immortal Words). Or maybe the city of Urithiru was not built to be the home base of the Knights Radiant, but was built to be a city that linked all of the kingdoms together, and the Knights Radiant just decided to use it as the location for their base of operations when they were founded. I dunno. Could anyone please point out the detail that I have wrong or am missing here? The latter, non KR Surgebinders existed before the Knights Radiant were founded, Nohadon mentions it in one of Dalinars visions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyali she/her Posted April 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2016 Ah, I missed that. Or haven't gotten back to it in my re-read. Skimming ahead, I see that it's like, two chapters from where I am. Oops! Thanks for the clarification ^.^ I wonder how non-Radiant Surgebinders worked compared to the Radiants. Did they have the same Oaths, without the First Ideal? They had to have Oaths in order to Invest, so I guess they'd be like the main characters are, each discovering things for themselves with no one to guide them, and their actions in life attracting their bondspren independently of anyone or anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Windspren he/him Posted April 12, 2016 Report Share Posted April 12, 2016 AFAIK, before Ishar bound the Surgebinders so that they would have to follow certain Ideals exclusive to their orders, they could basically do whatever they wanted, as long as their spren didn't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulcastJam he/him Posted April 12, 2016 Report Share Posted April 12, 2016 I think it likely that when he founded the KR they were a fledgling group that built in strength and momentum over time. By the time he wrote the book they were already well established. He wrote TWoK to give them further direction and a lasting focus, but it is likely that many of the concepts in the book were things he had already introduced to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Well, Surgebinders show up naturally as people exhibit traits which attract Nahelspren. I guess that Oaths are also natural, as I can't see how Nohadon could influence all the spren to adhere to the Way Of Kings. I think something else is happening here. Oaths are a natural part of the Nahel bond, Nohadon just codified them in his book and built parables around them. That way Knights Radiant had a universal embodimient of their ways of life and in turn the Way Od Kings influenced later Radiants who had it easier to live to their Oaths as they could read the Way Of Kings and meditate about the wisdom it holds.In fact, when I first read the Way Of Kings (this was my first Sanderson book and I knew nothing) this struck me as odd how swearing Oaths can influence magic at all... and how could a book influence the magic!Then I learned about cosmere and when you know that Surgebinding is of Honor and know stuff about how magic requires Intent and so on, then it all started making sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong he/him Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Well, Surgebinders show up naturally as people exhibit traits which attract Nahelspren. I guess that Oaths are also natural, as I can't see how Nohadon could influence all the spren to adhere to the Way Of Kings. I think something else is happening here. Oaths are a natural part of the Nahel bond, Nohadon just codified them in his book and built parables around them. That way Knights Radiant had a universal embodimient of their ways of life and in turn the Way Od Kings influenced later Radiants who had it easier to live to their Oaths as they could read the Way Of Kings and meditate about the wisdom it holds. In fact, when I first read the Way Of Kings (this was my first Sanderson book and I knew nothing) this struck me as odd how swearing Oaths can influence magic at all... and how could a book influence the magic! Then I learned about cosmere and when you know that Surgebinding is of Honor and know stuff about how magic requires Intent and so on, then it all started making sense. Yea, Nohadon did not create the first oath or anything, he merely adopted it to his philosophy. Brandon told me that the oaths are a natural outgrowth of the spren, so there is no way that a random human somehow dictated the laws of nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyali she/her Posted April 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 In fact, when I first read the Way Of Kings (this was my first Sanderson book and I knew nothing) this struck me as odd how swearing Oaths can influence magic at all... and how could a book influence the magic! Then I learned about cosmere and when you know that Surgebinding is of Honor and know stuff about how magic requires Intent and so on, then it all started making sense. I actually really love how speaking the oaths works. I felt the same way when I first started reading, but then I thought about it, and was like, oh! I get it! Honor + Cultivation = cultivating a specific virtue within you and speaking vows when you reach new levels of understanding. You strengthen your conduit to the two shards (Honor and Cultivation) linked to your investiture source (Stormlight) at each step. This allows you to more easily channel that investiture (Stormlight). It's so appropriate, it's beautiful. I also really love the reason why Surgebinders have to be under extreme stress in order for bondspren to bond them - they need cracks in their soul (their protrusion into the spiritual realm) so the spren can fill in the holes and hold their soul together, forging the bond through those cracks. As long as the soul they bond to is similar to them, the bond gets stronger, but if the soul changes to be different, the bond can break. The vows keep their souls similar to the spren such that they can only change their soul to differ from the spren by breaking those vows. It works so well. From re-reading chapter 60 of The Way of Kings (the vision about Nohadon), I wonder if there were vows before the Knights Radiant, or if the bond was just strengthened by the surgebinder becoming more similar to the spren's ideals (the spren's protrusion into the spiritual realm) without it being codified. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 I think that TWoK basically made the process of becoming a Knight Radiant more clear, less of the bumbling around and killing spren that (WoR spoilers) Kaladin accidentally participated in It's not just a good book, it's an instruction manual for becoming a Radiant. ADD: that would make for some interesting YouTube tutorials... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 (edited) ADD: that would make for some interesting YouTube tutorials... how about teleshopping?: CLUELESS ABOUT WHAT YOUR NEXT OATH IS? TIRED OF ACCIDENTIALLY KILLING YOUR SPREN? READ THIS REVOLUTIONARY BOOK AND BECOME A BETTER KNIGHT RADIANT! ORDER NOW AND OBTAIN THIS ELEGANT PAIN RELIEVING FABRIAL! ONLY TEN EMERALD BROAMS! Edited April 23, 2016 by Oversleep 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion he/him Posted April 24, 2016 Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 how about teleshopping?: BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY, GET ONE SHARDBLADE FREE WITH THE PURCHASE OF EVERY SPREN!!!! Act now! Offer only valid while supplies last! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyali she/her Posted April 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 And if that's not enough to convince you, listen to these moving testimonials! Dalanar: "This book has changed my life. I once met a blind and destitute man who never spoke. He could not find any words worth sharing. And then he found this book, and from that day forth, he could speak only in parables. That man is me." Teft: "This book led to everyone I ever loved killing themselves. Or me killing them." Rock: "This thing, he is good tinder. Wait, he was a book? Why would you give me a book? Airsick lowlanders." Sadeas: "Ha. Haha. Ahahahahaha" walks away, shaking his head Szeth son son Vallano: "This book is lies. I am Truthless. This book is lies. I am Truthless...." Kaladin: silent glare Shallan: "Oh, err, what spren? I don't know what you're talking about. Oh! Look over there! runs away and hides behind a rock Order now, and we'll throw in a Pattern plushie. Each impossible curve and spiral reproduced faithfully by our friends at Artifabrians and Friends! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Staccato he/him Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) And if that's not enough to convince you, listen to these moving testimonials! Dalanar: "This book has changed my life. I once met a blind and destitute man who never spoke. He could not find any words worth sharing. And then he found this book, and from that day forth, he could speak only in parables. That man is me." Teft: "This book led to everyone I ever loved killing themselves. Or me killing them." Rock: "This thing, he is good tinder. Wait, he was a book? Why would you give me a book? Airsick lowlanders." Sadeas: "Ha. Haha. Ahahahahaha" walks away, shaking his head Szeth son son Vallano: "This book is lies. I am Truthless. This book is lies. I am Truthless...." Kaladin: silent glare Shallan: "Oh, err, what spren? I don't know what you're talking about. Oh! Look over there! runs away and hides behind a rock Order now, and we'll throw in a Pattern plushie. Each impossible curve and spiral reproduced faithfully by our friends at Artifabrians and Friends! Rock and Sadeas ought to give out more testimonials if you ask me. Edited April 26, 2016 by Mr. Staccato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahak he/him Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 They had to have Oaths in order to Invest, An assumption with out evidence given some of the implications that the Magic system got altered by some or all of Talinvast/Honor, The Dawnshards, The Bondsmiths and Cultivation at the founding of the Knights radient. Nohandon even says it is a pity the other Nahel spren are not as particular as Honorspren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) I believe the organization of the KR was born from Nohadon's teachings, or perhaps imposition on the lands he ruled. However, most surgebinders were not bound to it, and its oaths were merely cerimonial, until Ishar forced order upon the spren, forcing the Oaths of the Knights Radiant to be part of tgeir very nature, creating the modern, oathbound surgebinders. Edited April 30, 2016 by DreamEternal 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted July 15, 2016 Report Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) It came to me when I was reading the Stormlight Trailer thread. Nohadon's Way of Kings is a tool to make new Surgebinders. Dalinar reads it, starts living adhering to the ideals and morals it represents and he becomes a person who can attract a Nahelspren. So you find someone with potential to be a Surgebinder (I mean correct moral system and so on; and probably being already broken, if we can find such person), give Way Of Kings to that person and wait. If it catches on, the person starts to live by ideals in the book and boom! we have a person who's exhibiting the traits which attract the spren. If it doesn't catch on, I doubt that person would come to the correct mindset anyway. P.S. I believe that Oaths were always part of the system. Anyway, nor Nohadon or Heralds did in any way make changes to the Surgebinding. Even Shards don't have direct control over their magic systems and can only play little tricks (like adding Intent to perform Hemalurgy or setting mists to Snap atium mistings instead of cadmium). Edited July 15, 2016 by Oversleep 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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