The Shards are gay: wierd vibes

[RenegadeShroom]

Because art doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you're writing a character who is fundamentally different from you in way that would cause other people to treat them differently/worse in real life, you have to do research to make sure that you're not inadvertently portraying certain groups of people offensively. Yeah, people are people and should be treated as such, but there are certain things you can do with straight and cisgender characters that you can't with others because in the context of the real world, that could be a stereotype or trope that proves harmful to minorities. Essentially, it is entirely that, yes, Brandon is an author who's never experienced those particular hardships in his life.

 

Aside from that, there's also learning as much as you can so that you can do a character justice. Maybe you want the character to highlight differences by addressing something directly. For instance, Jasnah with her atheism. In that case, research will help you portray what a person with certain backgrounds or beliefs or whatever far more believably than otherwise.

[Kingsdaughter613]

There is also the problem that if you write an lgbtq character as just another character their sexuality may never come up. Then you can get accused of hiding them, or their sexuality.

As an example, Dumbledore may be homosexual, but it never came up in the books. Why? Because as 150 year old, not in an active relationship it was not important. Only Snape's relationship was plot relevant. McGonagal was the only other teacher who we know about and, again, it was not in the books. If JKR had not told us we would never have known.

So is that burying or is that just not plot relevant? It should be pointed out that some people just don't think their sexuality is that relevant to their identity. For some it is a defining factor. For most people it's somewhere in between the two. And in most cases you won't know unless that person is in an active relationship, or they mention it.

[RenegadeShroom]

Ah, bury your gays is something different. It's killing off gay characters, not hiding that they're gay, if that's what you're replying to when you say "burying", Kingsdaughter.

 

Anyway, the Dumbledore thing is a very good example for this, because there was ample opportunity for JK Rowling to actually include a confirmation in the books! It doesn't have to be super overt, nor distracting, nor does it require that every gay character be in a romantic relationship! With Dumbledore, there's exactly one line in the right scene that would have conveyed everything that needed to be conveyed, and fit in perfectly with the rest of the scene:

 

Imagine the Harry Potter books exactly as they are, with Dumbledore exactly as fully fleshed out and 100% as realized and well-rounded and plot-driving as he is in them as they exist right now.

Now picture the scene in King’s Cross Station, where Dumbledore is 1) dead, 2) no longer Harry’s teacher/headmaster, 3) past the point of all secrets, and 4) desperate to make his youthful actions understood to Harry.

Bear in mind as you’re picturing this scene that this man canonically believes that love is the most powerful force in the universe.

Imagine he says the words, “Harry, you have to understand, I was in love.”

The rest of that person's post goes into further detail, but simply put, the only reason that this ever is a problem is because creators-- for various reasons --tiptoe around same sex attraction and romance to a far greater degree than heterosexual attraction and romance. If you're hiding it, it's obvious in retrospect, especially in the Dumbledore example, because it will make things seem odd, and maybe even stilted, when (as per Dumbledore) the entire fate of their world can hinge on this sort of thing. Obviously, that won't apply to all, or maybe even many examples, but relationships are important, and stepping around a select few when they provide context for character development and plot progression is noticeably awkward writing.

[IndigoAjah]

Frankly the sexuality of most characters in Mistborn don't matter- many of them could be gay, but how would we find out, especially when Sanderson isn't comfortable writing sexually charged scenes?

[Pathfinder]

Frankly the sexuality of most characters in Mistborn don't matter- many of them could be gay, but how would we find out, especially when Sanderson isn't comfortable writing sexually charged scenes?

I don't think there has to be a sexually charged scene in order to show a character's sexual preference. That is something that has annoyed me when I have read some books with female characters as the protagonist or a lgbt protagonist. Suddenly they become this oversexed character that drools over another character and only thinks about sex. We know Shallan has a thing for Adolin and visa versa without them getting down and dirty. We know Raoden and Sarene are an item without a sexually charged scene. And so on. I believe it comes back to as it was stated, is it a plot point? Is the culture the character lives in hostile to it, or accepting to it? The topic becomes an issue, if in the story it is an issue. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Exactly. If it isn't important then it doesn't need to be mentioned. If the person is in a relationship it will come up. If they aren't, and it doesn't matter on that world, why should it? If the character was straight, would it ever be mentioned? If not, and it isn't a major character element, then it shouldn't be mentioned. The author can let us know outside the story if there is no natural way to tell us inside.

I loved the way we found out about Ranette. The way we were told was natural, and showed that it was not an issue in this world. The one issue was Wayne...

Sexuality is only a big deal if we make it one. If we simply accept it, then it's as likely to come up as anything else.

[Arcanea]

I agree. Being a lesbian myself I loved the inclusion on Ranette's sexuality and I thought it was done very well by Brandon. It showed that sexuality, while misunderstood by some (Wayne), is not an issue on Scadrial and this was an interesting difference in culture to our world. However I would love to see more development of this relationship or maybe another queer couple in books to come. If Brandon can write maturely and effectively about an atheist (Jasnah) then I see no reason why he couldn't write just as well about a homosexual couple with the same level of research that he performed to write Jasnah.

[DeadFencer]

It would be good to see better representation of LGBT in media in general (and Cosmere in particular). However, keep in mind that at best census data LGBT people make up around 3.5% of the population, with around half that group being bisexual. So statistically, only around 2.5% of humans would be in a homosexual relationship, or actively seeking one in the context of this kind of story.

Which means that around 1 out of every 50 characters 'should' be gay, if that makes sense.

Well, those statistics are based on right now, the first time that LGBT people have been in the public eye. Look at how more youths identify as non-hetero: it's more acceptable, so more will appear. I feel like we can't use modern statistics to determine how many people "should be" heterosexual. However, even if those statistics were somehow accurate, they still wouldn't be useable for Scadrial. The people of Scadrial aren't humans. They're a species created by two Shards based on the humanoid inhabitants of Yolen. We can't assume they even have the same internal organs as humans, let alone ratios of sexualities.

[Your3rdShadow]

Well, those statistics are based on right now, the first time that LGBT people have been in the public eye. Look at how more youths identify as non-hetero: it's more acceptable, so more will appear. I feel like we can't use modern statistics to determine how many people "should be" heterosexual. However, even if those statistics were somehow accurate, they still wouldn't be useable for Scadrial. The people of Scadrial aren't humans. They're a species created by two Shards based on the humanoid inhabitants of Yolen. We can't assume they even have the same internal organs as humans, let alone ratios of sexualities.

Sexuality aside, I'm pretty sure it's a safe bet to say that their close enough to human that they don't have any extra/missing organs. I have nothing to back that statement up with, but if someone has proof to the contrary, please post it.

[DeadFencer]

Do we even know the original Shardholders weren't dragons

[IndigoAjah]

Do we even know the original Shardholders weren't dragons

Pretty sure we do know, I'm looking for a WoB but at the very least Leras and Ati leave human bodies  so they were in human form at some point

 

 

Edit: found it - it implies that some might not have been human but I'm pretty sure that Leras and Ati were human

Quote

 

 

NUTIKETAIEL

Were the original sixteen Shardholders after the shattering all human?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uh … RAFO. There are three races on Yolen. Three sentient races.

Edited March 30, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[DeadFencer]

So basically a one in three chance of dragon

[natc]

That's not how probability works Pear.

You have no idea what circumstances even lead up to the event being calculated, nor do we know the population distribution of each race.

[KidWayne]

Yep, I can see it now... Dragonsteel - a novel by a Mormon author - is going to detail the homosexual relationship between two gay dragons who in the course of a lovers' quarrel inadvertently reveal the secret of how to kill Adonalsium to a secret society with a grudge against God.

@natc - can you make a few actuarial assumptions and calculate the probability on that?

Edited March 31, 2016 by KidWayne

[Pathfinder]

Yep, I can see it now... Dragonsteel - a novel by a Mormon author - is going to detail the homosexual relationship between two gay dragons who in the course of a lovers' quarrel inadvertently reveal the secret of how to kill Adonalsium to a secret society with a grudge against God.

@natc - can you make a few actuarial assumptions and calculate the probability on that?

I have just about never downvoted anyone on this site, but kinda had to in this case. Sanderson has done an amazing job separating the religious doctrine of his religion from his books and has fairly treated other religious concepts and ideas as best as he can. I do not think it is right or fair to make that kind of joke. 

[ParadoxicalZen]

Yep, I can see it now... Dragonsteel - a novel by a Mormon author - is going to detail the homosexual relationship between two gay dragons who in the course of a lovers' quarrel inadvertently reveal the secret of how to kill Adonalsium to a secret society with a grudge against God.

I'd read that, it sounds fascinating

[IndigoAjah]

That doesn't sound all that unlikely really, Sanderson writes outside of his own religious perspective in my opinion and I've read weirder Fantasy

[DeadFencer]

Um that sounds like the best book ever. And I could see Brandon Sanderson writing it. He hasn't been rude about his religion to anyone, so we shouldn't be rude to him about it.

[DSC01]

Anyone know who Vax is?

 

I don't know if anyone answered you about this. It certainly sounded like Ati was talking about a person, from the context. However, the only thing we know for sure is that Vax is almost certainly a planet.

 

From the Elantris 10th Anniversary Ars Arcanum (the author is musing about how no one knows how Elantrians are initiated):

 

 

Even Taldain's and Vax's methods do not seem to apply here.

[killersquirrel59]

At least in my own opinion, I think that the way LGBTQ characters are often highlighted does far more damage than good. Far too often creators (authors/directors/producers/etc.) feel they need to force the issue by making gay characters take the spotlight because they are gay and making that be their only real defining characteristic. This is an easy trap to fall into, and I genuinely think is usually done with the best intentions, but it often comes off false, preachy, and sometimes offensive. I personally think that the best way to see an increase in the presence of LGBTQ characters is exactly the kind of thing we saw with Ranette. Show that there are gay characters, then make it completely not matter further in the story. The more we see scenes like that, the more it will be seen as commonplace and ordinary for someone to be gay. 

[KidWayne]

I have just about never downvoted anyone on this site, but kinda had to in this case. Sanderson has done an amazing job separating the religious doctrine of his religion from his books and has fairly treated other religious concepts and ideas as best as he can. I do not think it is right or fair to make that kind of joke.

Ok, I think that I must have come across the wrong way here. I have a really positive view of Mormons; specifically, I think they put other Christian sects to shame in living out what they believe (FYI, I hail from the Reformed Protestant Christian camp). Personally, I have a conflicted position on homosexuality. I don't think it's right or justifiable to hate, judge, or disparage homosexuals; at the same time, I believe what the bible teaches about homosexuality as well. Many see this as impossible to reconcile, but I don't. I equate homosexual sex with the use of pornography; that is, it's something that the bible would single out as a sin. I don't end relationships with people just because I discover they watch porn, and I don't protest adult video/novelty shops in an effort to harass or shame their patrons. I simply choose to avoid both, because I believe it is right to do so. I find that this view on the subject allows me to see people as people and treat them as such. I also try to watch out for any anti-LGBT biases with the same vigor I apply to racial bias.

That said, I struggle with adult-ADHD. For anyone who doesn't know, people with ADHD have problems with impulse control. It would seem that - in my previous post - I failed to consider my words carefully before I shared the first thing that came to mind. I'm sorry. I meant no offense to anyone. I was just casually playing with sarcasm and hyperbole and I didn't pause to consider that those things might not translate well in a text only format. Again, I'm sorry.

---

The idea I was trying to convey was simply this: The idea that someone with Brandon Sanderson's background would even attempt to write a story such as the one I described is unlikely. It certainly wasn't meant to disparage Mr. Sanderson, his faith, or his ability to separate his personal and professional life. I don't know Brandon personally, but based on what I've read, he's compassionate, sensitive to others, and a little innocent.  As a result, he is willing to write homosexual characters but he is hesitant about giving them major roles (because he doesn't want to portray them in an offensive, stereotyped, or unconvincing way). Obviously, authors overcome these kinds of obstacles all the time; I doubt Brandon has ever been an assassin, princess, con-artist, or a policeman.

My point is that authors write about what they know. Brandon is more likely to write about things that he personally finds interesting or about his own experiences. I suspect that this is why we read about an unusual number of arranged marriages (Brandon has publically said that he and his wife waited to consummate their relationship until after they got married) as opposed to characters with a series of lovers. For the same reasons, I think that Brandon is more likely to write characters with gay friends instead of gay protagonists. Unless homosexuality asserts itself in the life of an author (i.e. personal experience, a family member or close friend coming out, frequent contact with LGBT individuals at work, etc.), I don't think its likely that an author will feel comfortable enough with that perspective to write from it - not because of homophobia but for lack of experience.

[Argent]

I doubt Brandon has ever been an assassin, princess, con-artist, or a policeman.

 

Oh, how innocent you are...

[KidWayne]

Oh, how innocent you are...

Lol, touché.

+1

[DeadFencer]

For the same reasons, I think that Brandon is more likely to write characters with gay friends instead of gay protagonists. Unless homosexuality asserts itself in the life of an author (i.e. personal experience, a family member or close friend coming out, frequent contact with LGBT individuals at work, etc.), I don't think its likely that an author will feel comfortable enough with that perspective to write from it - not because of homophobia but for lack of experience.

This argument requires the assumption that homosexuality, and homosexual relationships are inherently different from heterosexual ones, and so different that an author couldn't write a homosexual relationship without direct experience. I'd argue that authors like Mr. Sanderson are more skilled than that, since he can, for example, write a relationship from a female perspective when he isn't female. Direct experience isn't needed to write a relationship.

[Argent]

That's the thing, though, maybe homsexual relationships do work differently - one can't know without some kind of experience, e.g. talking to people. I happen to agree with the assumption that relationships are relationships, and the only differences come when sexytime happens; but I am not an author, my beliefs reach a fairly small number of people, and if I get something wrong I can apologize to all of them personally. I wouldn't be nearly as confident if my words were reaching thousands of people.