Braize = Yolen

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Yes, a cool theory. I have a hard time seeing how Braize could be Yolen though. A number of problems:

1. Frost never left the planet. If it shattered, as someone proposed, then I wonder why he stayed. Seems safer to "ABANDON SHIP!" 

2. If Frost stayed, Braize/Yolen is still inhabited by Odium. How easy would it be for Frost to hang around on Yolen when Odium is there? Again, abandon ship would be logical. Of course, Odium might be blocking travel to or from Braize. But still, would Frost even be allowed to leave?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

42 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

Yes, a cool theory. I have a hard time seeing how Braize could be Yolen though. A number of problems:

1. Frost never left the planet. If it shattered, as someone proposed, then I wonder why he stayed. Seems safer to "ABANDON SHIP!" 

2. If Frost stayed, Braize/Yolen is still inhabited by Odium. How easy would it be for Frost to hang around on Yolen when Odium is there? Again, abandon ship would be logical. Of course, Odium might be blocking travel to or from Braize. But still, would Frost even be allowed to leave?

Well... I can see some reasons why you would want to stay on Braize if Odium was there... The problem is, Frost is avoiding intervention of any kind it seems. If that were the case, he would probably want to keep his distance from Odium's affairs (after all that's what he is asking Hoid to do, right?).

So yeah, Frost probably wouldn't stay on Braize in this case. Unless he was unable to leave. But if that is the case, how is he sending and receiving letters and organizing things like the 17th shard across different worlds?

[PallonianFire he/him]

One thing to take into account (and I suppose there could be a grain of salt with this, but Khriss is THE most Cosmere-aware character, so I find that doubtful) is that Khriss says Yolen is hidden. Braize is pretty clearly not hidden, since people on Roshar can see it and Shards know about Odium being there.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, PallonianFire said:

One thing to take into account (and I suppose there could be a grain of salt with this, but Khriss is THE most Cosmere-aware character, so I find that doubtful) is that Khriss says Yolen is hidden. Braize is pretty clearly not hidden, since people on Roshar can see it and Shards know about Odium being there.

The OP's theory is that Yolen was renamed to Braize without anyone realizing, thus hiding it. 

Personally, I doubt this. That said, I haven't read Mistborn: Secret History or Dragonsteel so I'm missing some information. On the other hand, a fairly strong argument for this theory is that there were spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived, which means they were likely directly of Adonalsium. This would make sense if Roshar was near Yolen.

[Argel he/him]

38 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

On the other hand, a fairly strong argument for this theory is that there were spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived, which means they were likely directly of Adonalsium. This would make sense if Roshar was near Yolen

As far as we know, Scadrial is the only planet created post-shattering. The whole Cosmere is filled with stuff influenced to some degree or another by Adonalsium. And Roshar could have been a pet project. Sorry, but it's not arguably not even weak evidence.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Argel said:

As far as we know, Scadrial is the only planet created post-shattering. The whole Cosmere is filled with stuff influenced to some degree or another by Adonalsium. And Roshar could have been a pet project. Sorry, but it's not arguably not even weak evidence.

Honestly, yes it is pretty weak. First of all though, this isn't my idea, just something that I agree is within the realm of possibility, though barely, that has been mentioned earlier in this topic. Using strong was perhaps a poor word choice, but compared to other arguments for the "Yolen = Braize" theory, it's definitely up there. Secondly, I didn't say that Roshar was created post-shattering, I just said that bits of Adonalsium's power ended up on it. The two are not related. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

6 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

Khriss is THE most Cosmere-aware character

Isn't Hoid more cosmere aware than Khriss? I haven't read white sand so I might be missing something... But I mean Hoid was literally around since before the shattering, and unlike the shards he spends all his time worldhopping around and getting involved in every single interesting occurrence in the cosmere. Oh and also unlike Khriss he almost certainly does know where Yolen is located.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Jondesu he/him]

8 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Isn't Hoid more cosmere aware than Khriss? I haven't read white sand so I might be missing something... But I mean Hoid was literally around since before the shattering, and unlike the shards he spends all his time worldhopping around and getting involved in every single interesting occurrence in the cosmere. Oh and also unlike Khriss he almost certainly does know where Yolen is located.

There's a WoB saying that Khriss is the most knowledgeable about the Cosmere. That doesn't mean she knows everything Hoid knows or vice versa, but she is said to have the most (largest collection) of knowledge, which makes sense since that's what she is all about, while Hoid has other goals.

jW

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Well Hoid does have other goals, this is true...

If Axies ever became cosmere aware he would probably become a lot like Khriss is...

[Xaladin he/him]

Braize is not Yolen.

Remember Hoid told Frost to "leave that place" to help with the Rayse problem? If you think about that, it only makes sense if Frost is not in the Rosharan system. Also, Frost in the letter back refers to the Rosharan system (where Rayse is "trapped"), and it doesn't sound like the author of that letter is there.

EDIT: I upvoted the theory though, for good thinking.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Xaladin

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Xaladin said:

Braize is not Yolen.

Remember Hoid told Frost to "leave that place" to help with the Rayse problem? If you think about that, it only makes sense if Frost is not in the Rosharan system. Also, Frost in the letter back refers to the Rosharan system (where Rayse is "trapped"), and it doesn't sound like the author of that letter is there.

EDIT: I upvoted the theory though, for good thinking.

Isn't it the other way around? Frost told Hoid to "leave that place" in the second letter. While this does indicate that Frost is far removed from Roshar, and not being a worldhopper, would still be on Yolen, therefore making Braize Yolen impossible. A possible thought though, is that while Frost is confirmed to not be a worldhopper, he may have been moved to another world by someone else's power. Could be wrong though, not sure if it is confirmed that he has never traveled between worlds before.

[Yata he/him]

much more this line seems to be strange if Frost is in the Great Roshar:

Quote

Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited. 

Whether this was Tanavast’s design or not, millennia have passed without Rayse taking the life of another of the sixteen.

Also the "life of another of the sixteen" seems point to an external group, with he isn't part of (but those part may isn't too strong)

Edited August 12, 2016 by Yata

[Xaladin he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Isn't it the other way around? Frost told Hoid to "leave that place" in the second letter. While this does indicate that Frost is far removed from Roshar, and not being a worldhopper, would still be on Yolen, therefore making Braize Yolen impossible. A possible thought though, is that while Frost is confirmed to not be a worldhopper, he may have been moved to another world by someone else's power. Could be wrong though, not sure if it is confirmed that he has never traveled between worlds before.

Yes.

[Argel he/him]

Brandon defined a worldhopper as someone who has been to another world. There was no requirement that they had to make it their on their own. IIRC, there was a comparison being made to the Doctor's companion leading up to the explanation. 

With that said, if Braize was formed from a part of Yolen, then there could be some wiggle room. But we're really splitting hairs at that point, and Frost would presuably know if he's on what used to be a part of Yolen.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Argel said:

Brandon defined a worldhopper as someone who has been to another world. There was no requirement that they had to make it their on their own. IIRC, there was a comparison being made to the Doctor's companion leading up to the explanation. 

True point. My theory on that is moot then. If we therefore assume Frost is still on Yolen, then I have little doubt that Yolen is not a part of the greater Roshar system, due to the how Frost references in externally. Makes me wonder how the letters are being carried to the other. Magical Shadesmar post?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Frost has an entire organization of worldhoppers on call. They might not be able to actually catch Hoid, but they can probably arrange for the letter to get to him.

As for how Hoid sends his letters... Well he's Hoid.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Argel he/him]

I think it's implied Frost and Hoid have some way to communicate because why have the 17th Shard chase him if they can just wait at the mail drop? It's probably not a coincidence the letters in the series with spanreeds....

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

What I'm curious to know is whether or not worldhoppers existed pre-Shattering. We know that many of the Shardworlds already existed....only some like Scadrial were created by the Shards. But did the people of Yolen have knowledge of these other Shardworlds? Could they worldhop?

Because if so, while Braize may not be Yolen, it could still be a world that has some significance to Hoid and the original Vessels because they could worldhop. Whether Hoid had ever been on Braize could be 'the biggest RAFO' ever not because he'd been on it since the Shattering, when it was 'Rayse's territory' so to speak, but because something significant happened there before the Shattering, and this ties into why Braize is now Damnation. I don't know, this is totally baseless speculation, but like what if the weapon that killed Adonalsium originally came from Braize. And that's why Rayse set up shop there, because he didn't want any other Vessels (or Hoid) to have access to Braize and use it against him. Something like that.

(Incidentally, this would also explain Ati's question about Vax. Unless Ruin spent time on another Shardworld before creating Scadrial with Leras, confusing Shadesmar with the planet Vax doesn't make a lot of sense unless his familiarity with it came from before the Shattering, like as a worldhopper).

[Argel he/him]

It should have been possible, but it may have been harder to enter the CR. Of course, in theory Adonalsium was a worldhopper. 

Regarding "the biggest RAFO ever" according to the quote, Brandon was laughing when he said it. So I think we should be careful not to read too much into it. It could be an inside joke or it could be a RAFO because of the comedic value (don't tell the punchline of a joke ahead of time). Hoid is known for his crazy antics.

[Blackhoof]

I'm honestly most curious as to how a dragon writes letters. What sort of dragon is he? Did he dictate it to a human servant? Can he take humanoid form? Does he ink them out with the tip of a giant claw?

 

questions....

[Argel he/him]

EDIT: Having seen a dragon in human form may just be headcanon.  

 

According to a WoB, we've seen a dragon in human(oid) (cannot the exact wording) form. Good luck figuring out who it is though. It could be as obscure as the terriswoman in Warbreaker and the worldhopping Kandras. But anyway, they can take human(oid) form. Maybe someone who has read DragonSteel could chime in with more details?

Anyway, Brandon read a lot of dragon stuff in his early fantasy reading days, and of course is a bit of a gaming geek, so there are plenty of influences to draw from.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Argel

[Pagerunner he/him]

5 hours ago, Argel said:

According to a WoB, we've seen a dragon in human(oid) (cannot the exact wording) form. Good luck figuring out who it is though. It could be as obscure as the terriswoman in Warbreaker and the worldhopping Kandras. But anyway, they can take human(oid) form. Maybe someone who has read DragonSteel could chime in with more details?

Can you please source that? I've seen speculation that that is the case, but not a direct WoB about having already seen a dragon on-screen.

[Argel he/him]

@Pagerunner, I think you right -- I think that slipped into my headcanon!! Good catch!  

[Djarskublar he/him]

Regarding "the biggest RAFO ever." my bet is that it's not the most important, just that it refers to something large like a planet- Braize. Simple.

[NamelessThirteenth]

OMG YOUR THEORY FITS!!!!

barndon said that theer is a shard that just wants to survive. this could be Frost, and thats why he can exist on the same system as Odium and not be detected! plus, you kinda expect Yolen to become dystopian after the shattering so it fits!!!!