[SH spoilers] [Theory] Steelpush/Ironpull affects really metals ?

[Yata]

(very little Spoiler from Mistborn: Secret History)

 

 

Hello sharder, I am here with a strange idea that come to my mind.

 

We know that Steel/Iron Allomancy allows to push/pull Metals, but is it possible that we have wrong all this time ?

(and the effect we saw is only a specific istance of Steel/Iron Allomancy outcome)

 

The doubt come after reading Secret History, we see how on Scadrial every Metal is a gateway to Investiture and in the Cognitive Realm they glows like Beacons for this reason.

 

Now what if Does Steel (and Iron) Allomancy let you spot this Beacons and to use it as Anchor to Push (or Pull) ?

(like if the Metal is more compatible to be manipulate through Investiture)

 

Of Course on Scadrial this let you to Push/pull on metals (this is the "Specific istance"), but off world the Beacons to be used as target may be something different (and maybe something not physical like the Command on Nalthis).

 

 

I know this idea of mine may be very probably wrong, but I find this possibility quite intresting and I want your opinions

Edited February 27, 2016 by Yata

[Oversleep]

...aaaand walked into spoiler-mine again    I'm pretty sure spoiler topics have to be posted in respective subforums, or at least tagged as spoilers from BoM or/and MSH.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Oversleep

[Yata]

...aaaand walked into spoiler-mine again    I'm pretty sure spoiler topics have to be posted in respective subforums, or at least tagged as spoilers from BoM or/and MSH.

Actually as far as I know after 2 week of the book's release one can post about a book on Cosmere Theory.

 

I read it just today on another topic... Am i wrong ?

 

 

Anyway I am sorry to spoil something to you, i will edit the first post  (it's just a little thing, but sorry)

Edited February 27, 2016 by Yata

[Observer]

...aaaand walked into spoiler-mine again    I'm pretty sure spoiler topics have to be posted in respective subforums, or at least tagged as spoilers from BoM or/and MSH.

What was the spoiler? We've known metal is Invested since Hero of Ages, and we know metal glows in the Cognitive because Vin saw it as such while holding Preservation. Am I missing something?

 

Also, very interesting idea. But somehow I don't think Steel/Iron would work on, say, gemstones on Roshar or Color on Nalthis. But I do agree, only being able to push on metal is fishy.

[Yata]

it's probably a stupid idea but it may be a possible explaination about Steel/Iron Allomancy.

 

On 27/2/2016 at 6:51 PM, Observer said:

Also, very interesting idea. But somehow I don't think Steel/Iron would work on, say, gemstones on Roshar or Color on Nalthis. But I do agree, only being able to push on metal is fishy.

Yeah but the Nalthis Focus is Commands not Colors and we don't know what Roshar's Focus is.

 

With my interpretation on many Shardworlds you will have nothing to Push/Pull 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Yata

[Jondesu]

That's a very interesting concept.  I would say it's entirely possible from what we know of Investiture and Shard-magics, though it could just be metal itself as we've thought too.  If that's the case, though, then a Mistborn or Coinshot/Lurcher visiting another planet could run into some interesting issues, or benefits.

 

jW

[King's Twit]

I wonder what this theory would say about Aluminum? It is one of the base sixteen metals, but maybe it can't be pushed because it doesn't represent a gateway, an "open channel", to the power of Preservation. But then what is it?

 

It could be a  pseudo-godmetal of its own, but I would think that the Scadriens would have discovered by Era 2 if it could be alloyed in more ways than just duralumin to produce allomantic effects. Aluminum is rare, but not that rare.

[IndigoAjah]

Aluminium is anti-invested, maybe?

[Yata]

I wonder what this theory would say about Aluminum? It is one of the base sixteen metals, but maybe it can't be pushed because it doesn't represent a gateway, an "open channel", to the power of Preservation. But then what is it?

 

It could be a  pseudo-godmetal of its own, but I would think that the Scadriens would have discovered by Era 2 if it could be alloyed in more ways than just duralumin to produce allomantic effects. Aluminum is rare, but not that rare.

Well to explain why the Allumin can't be push/pull through Allomancy, I need another theory: the Alluminium has not a Spiritual Aspect (or at least misses some) .

In that ways the Alluminium can't be affected through Steel/Iron simply beacuse the Steelsight (that work through the Spiritual Realm) can't "see" it. But of a reason indipendent from this explaination of Beacons as avaliable target.

 

Therefore the Alluminium is an Avialiable target but it's invisible to the "tool" used by Coinshot to uses his powers.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Yata

[Ari]

Well, this isn't so much a "Iron/Steel" debate directly, so much as an extension of the question of "Does a spike on Roshar need to be made of gems?"

 

I suspect we'll find out that the Scadrian powers apply to metals because metals are the focus for Scadrial. I don't expect you could hack the power to apply to other focuses/investiture manifestations/etc... either.

 

edit: The one good thing you've theorised IMO is that Aluminium might be invisible to Ruin and Preservation. Totally worth asking Brandon if Sazed can see silver utensils and aluminium hats.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Ari

[IndigoAjah]

But we know Allomancy at least works in Roshar, don't we? It's suspected that Hoid Soothed Shallan

[Jondesu]

But we know Allomancy at least works in Roshar, don't we? It's suspected that Hoid Soothed Shallan

However, do we actually know that it was metal Hoid used?  Perhaps it was flakes/dust from a gemstone instead, if this theory is correct.

 

jW

[Argent]

I actually had a different idea - since we now know that Wax's superpowered steel & iron while he is holding the Bands allow him to essentially see Investiture (kind of), I had the idea that the reason Allomancers believe steel and iron affect metals specifically is because metals are the easiest to affect (them being sort of gateways to the Spiritual Realm), but with enough power, they could Push and Pull on anything. After all, if Wax can see the blue lines pointing to everything, and we know that traditionally those lines point to valid targets for Steelpushes and Ironpulls, then why not be able to affect those things too?

[ccstat]

But how do you account for the difficulty in pushing on metalminds? If it is easiest to push on something that is a gateway for investiture, why would extra investiture either mask or shield that thing from your push?

[Argent]

You are still pushing on things in the Physical Realm though - in my mind it's the difference between trying to open a door laden with gold versus trying to open a door to a treasury. I obviously don't have a detailed idea of how this could work, but it makes sense to me and I don't see obvious contradictions.

[Ari]

However, do we actually know that it was metal Hoid used?  Perhaps it was flakes/dust from a gemstone instead, if this theory is correct.

 

jW

 

Or he could totally have used metal, but maybe it's possible to have Iron and Steel affect Gems, or to use gems instead, if you hack the power properly, and Hoid had no reason to bother because he had metals on him or found them cheaper to acquire than hacking the magic.

 

But how do you account for the difficulty in pushing on metalminds? If it is easiest to push on something that is a gateway for investiture, why would extra investiture either mask or shield that thing from your push?

 

Perhaps anything Invested is harder to push on, but invested metal is still easier than uninvested other things. It's not an unreasonable theory for his Pulling the airship.

[Master_Moridin]

I actually had a different idea - since we now know that Wax's superpowered steel & iron while he is holding the Bands allow him to essentially see Investiture (kind of), I had the idea that the reason Allomancers believe steel and iron affect metals specifically is because metals are the easiest to affect (them being sort of gateways to the Spiritual Realm), but with enough power, they could Push and Pull on anything. After all, if Wax can see the blue lines pointing to everything, and we know that traditionally those lines point to valid targets for Steelpushes and Ironpulls, then why not be able to affect those things too?

 

It is also possible that Wax seeing lines pointing to everything was the result of seeing lines pointing to the atoms of the metallic elements that make up a lot of things.

[Voidus]

Actually as far as I know after 2 week of the book's release one can post about a book on Cosmere Theory.

 

I read it just today on another topic... Am i wrong ?

 

 

Anyway I am sorry to spoil something to you, i will edit the first post  (it's just a little thing, but sorry)

You're not wrong, I tend to tag topics that are SH spoilers because I know a lot of people still haven't read it but they can be posted in cosmere theories now.

It's a nice theory, I'm doing a complete Mistborn readthrough now so I'll keep an eye out for anything for/against.

[Yata]

On 28/2/2016 at 0:07 AM, Ari said:

Well, this isn't so much a "Iron/Steel" debate directly, so much as an extension of the question of "Does a spike on Roshar need to be made of gems?"

Actually there are two really different things:

- the "Gemstone Spike" argument is about "change the deep mechanics of a Manifestation of Investiture from World to World, and actually I don't think this is possible (for the old reason about: Shard's Investiture+Shardworld's focus), to me until Harmony de-invested Scadrial all the Metallic arts will need metal as Focus.

- my point about "Steel/Iron" argument is just a local misunderstood about how this powers has always worked.

It's much more like the Bronze Allomancy, on Scadrial everyone though it "senses Allomancy" but actually it's just a local misunderstood for its real effect "senses Investiture"... as far as I know nobody on Scadrial knows for example that they can sense Feruchemy too... But it's just for their lack of knowledge and testing.

 

 

On 28/2/2016 at 1:58 AM, Argent said:

I actually had a different idea - since we now know that Wax's superpowered steel & iron while he is holding the Bands allow him to essentially see Investiture (kind of), I had the idea that the reason Allomancers believe steel and iron affect metals specifically is because metals are the easiest to affect (them being sort of gateways to the Spiritual Realm), but with enough power, they could Push and Pull on anything. After all, if Wax can see the blue lines pointing to everything, and we know that traditionally those lines point to valid targets for Steelpushes and Ironpulls, then why not be able to affect those things too?

It's possible Argent, and the metals is just more "Investiture compatible" on Scadrial. But I can't remove the option that in that case, He may simply pick little trace of metal to Push/Pull .... After all the elements of the periodic table isn't a huge number and many of them are metals.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Yata

[natc]

It is also possible that Wax seeing lines pointing to everything was the result of seeing lines pointing to the atoms of the metallic elements that make up a lot of things.

That's generally how Inquisitor steelsight is described, so yes, most likely in my opinion.

[Argent]

So, I was going to get all salty about how everyone is ignoring the WoB I got, and then I realized I hadn't actually shared it here... 

 

So, from the Calamity Chicago signing:

 

 

Q: At the end of Bands of Mourning, Wax begins seeing what seems like souls, as he’s holding the bands. He sees lines. He ponders that man/metals are the same thing. Is he seeing investiture there?

A: Yeah, to an extent. Yes. He’s seeing the cosmere-equivalent of atoms/investiture/energy waves all being the same thing.

Q: Okay, so kind of a building block of things

A: Yes; it’s almost like he’s seeing the ____, the atoms.

[soyperson]

On 2/27/2016 at 0:02 PM, Oversleep said:

...aaaand walked into spoiler-mine again    I'm pretty sure spoiler topics have to be posted in respective subforums, or at least tagged as spoilers from BoM or/and MSH.

If you're afraid of spoilers, you should probably not be on this website in the first place. 

Or, even better, read the books.

[Oversleep]

55 minutes ago, bleeder said:

If you're afraid of spoilers, you should probably not be on this website in the first place. 

Or, even better, read the books.

1) You do realize the post you're quoting is over six months old?
2) You do realize that the thread you're posting on is almost six months old?
3) You do realize that my post was refering to the fact that at the time it was just a few days since the spoiler-ban in Cosmere Theories ceased to exist? Few people keep tabs on when the spoiler policy would allows things to be posted outside of their respective subforums and I was a pretty fresh member back then. So I did not know that.
4) You do realize that not all people here are lucky enough to live in USA or English speaking countries and have the books released immediately? There are some that just won't pay three times more just so they could read it in English (and probably ebook, at that). If you do not know that, you should probably not be on this website in the first place. Or, even better, you could think before you post something.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Oversleep

[soyperson]

25 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

1) You do realize the post you're quoting is over six months old?
2) You do realize that the thread you're posting on is almost six months old?
3) You do realize that my post was refering to the fact that at the time it was just a few days since the spoiler-ban in Cosmere Theories ceased to exist? Few people keep tabs on when the spoiler policy would allows things to be posted outside of their respective subforums and I was a pretty fresh member back then. So I did not know that.
4) You do realize that not all people here are lucky enough to live in USA or English speaking countries and have the books released immediately? There are some that just won't pay three times more just so they could read it in English (and probably ebook, at that). If you do not know that, you should probably not be on this website in the first place. Or, even better, you could think before you post something.

"Is it terribly difficult for you?" Bleeder asked softly. "Living with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? Is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance, Oversleep?"

[Oversleep]

5 minutes ago, bleeder said:

"Is it terribly difficult for you?" Bleeder asked softly. "Living with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? Is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance, Oversleep?"

It's not brilliance to know what necroing a thread is and it's definitely not brilliance to know that telling people that they should not be on the site just because they can't read a book fast enough is rude.

So nope, it's definitely not difficult as I am not particularly brilliant and it seems that I'm just about the Shard's average.

I hope it won't be difficult for you, to suffer our average wits and simple thoughts.