Vertigo Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 In Era 3, is it possible that we will see kandra forming organs (using corspes as a guide, or something similar), and then those organs being surgically removed to be used on patients? Because that seems like a logical step in the application of the kandra's ability. However, is it even possible for organs to be removed from a kandra? Does it stay in its form, or just dissolve into goop or nothingness. Or, would there even need to be a surgical procedure to extract the organs? Could the kandra just detach it from within themselves, and bring it out of their bodies? 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 This is the best Mistborn idea in forever. Props to you for thinking of it! Sure, that sounds plausible to me. Kandra could likely extrude working organs from their "bodies" too, just supported by a few tubes. Fix the original body up nice and perfect, in case there was any damage done to it by the cause of death. Produce perfect organs, maybe even more than one. Of course, there would be the typical social issues of "We want our loved ones to be buried, not eaten by Kandra," but I'm sure those could be worked out. However, this theory posits a stock of available Kandra, and I doubt that there are any Kandra who would willingly choose to mingle with people in that way. In Shadows, we see that the Kandra are detached from the regular humans, and I expect that this divide will only become worse in Era 3, if indeed we see Kandra at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Also, Kandra still only have oh-so-much mass, so they would die after a while of this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecohansen Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 BOM spoiler When talking about looking for ReLuur's spike, which would be embedded in flesh, it's confirmed that Kandra flesh stays human-like after it's been separated from the Kandra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 No, I mean that the kandra would die, or get smaller, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 No, I mean that the kandra would die, or get smaller, or something. right...but I'm pretty sure that it could just eat a pig or something to replace the mass. At worst there might be a delay in the time between organ productions. However, the problem that I see as being a possibility is simply a question of compatibility. Yeah the Kandra can produce an organ to the exact measurements needed...and yeah the flesh stays human looking after it's been separated from the kandra's body...but on some level it's still a blob of goo that been rearranged to look and function just like human flesh. But...who knows...maybe they're close enough that it would still work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 In "Hero Of Ages" TenSoon consumed a pig in order to build up mass to eat a horse. So eating in order to build up mass is confirmed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Cool idea! I think this will work. They'll have to discover immunosuppressant drugs first to prevent transplant rejection, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Sorry to pull the conversation in a different direction...but has anyone ever seen the anime Parasyte? That being said...I wonder if a kandra could actually form a kind of symbiosis with someone who was fatally injured in order to keep them alive for a while. Like...Wayne is out of stored health and gets blown up in one of Wax's habitual explosions. He's missing most of his left leg and arm, while also suffering internal bleeding. So MeLaan decides to ditch a bunch of her mass and just become the worlds best prosthetic until Wayne can get medical attention. Edited January 24, 2016 by hoidhunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Sorry to pull the conversation in a different direction...but has anyone ever seen the anime Parasyte? That being said...I wonder if a kandra could actually form a kind of symbiosis with someone who was fatally injured in order to keep them alive for a while. Like...Wayne is out of stored health and gets blown up in one of Wax's habitual explosions. He's missing most of his left leg and arm, while also suffering internal bleeding. So MeLaan decides to ditch a bunch of her mass and just become the worlds best prosthetic until Wayne can get medical attention. For that a kandra would need to attach to nerves, muscles, ligaments, bone, and a host of other things. I'm not sure if that's possible. I'm just imagining Wayne talking to his 'leg', and everyone around him thinks he is crazy when he tells them, "My leg is actually a Faceless Immortal!" Edited January 24, 2016 by Vertigo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 ...or Wayne getting into a drinking / belching contest with his foot??? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 For that a kandra would need to attach to nerves, muscles, ligaments, bone, and a host of other things. I'm not sure if that's possible. I'm just imagining Wayne talking to his 'leg', and everyone around him thinks he is crazy when he tells them, "My leg is actually a Faceless Immortal!" Well they do that already when they make a body, it's just that she wouldn't have control over his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) I just realized that a sufficiently skilled and knowledgeable kandra could theoretically modify his own cells to not have any antigens at all, completely removing any risk of transplant rejection.I'm even wondering if perhaps kandra DNA already lack histocompatibility genes by default, making kandra organ donation even more hassle-free for both the donor and the recipient. (Edit: Okay, could someone more knowledgeable about biology please tell us if it's even possible for human cells to function without human leukocyte antigens? Thanks.)This gives me a theory idea, but I'll have to post it in the Shadows of Self spoiler board. Edited January 24, 2016 by skaa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I just realized that a sufficiently skilled and knowledgeable kandra could theoretically modify his own cells to not have any antigens at all, completely removing any risk of transplant rejection. Maybe. That depends on how far the kandra's power goes, in a scale between reshaping their flesh and praticaly transmutating it dowm to the molecular level as if they were soulcasting themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 (Edit: Okay, could someone more knowledgeable about biology please tell us if it's even possible for human cells to function without human leukocyte antigens? Thanks.) This gives me a theory idea, but I'll have to post it in the Shadows of Self spoiler board. I am not a molecular biologist, but close enough, and from what I know, no, it would not work. They tried to remove antigens from cell surfaces in laboratories, and they saw that the cell work just fine by itself, but the body don't function correctly. Apparently those antigens are needed for cell-cell interactions, so removing the genes for their expression from mice embryo resulted in development defects and abortion. So, I would say the answer to the question lay in whether kandras can imitate human antigens. Sure, they can change a muscle cell into a brain cell, but can they change the recognition proteins on that cell membrane? if they do, how can they avoid having autoimmune reactions? if they cannot do, then kandra organs would have rejection problems like any other transplanted organ. But hey, better than nothing, it could still keep you going for several years, and I think a skilled kandra may be able to supply a few dozen organs per day. Certainly seems like a useful application for their powers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I am not a molecular biologist, but close enough, and from what I know, no, it would not work. They tried to remove antigens from cell surfaces in laboratories, and they saw that the cell work just fine by itself, but the body don't function correctly. Apparently those antigens are needed for cell-cell interactions, so removing the genes for their expression from mice embryo resulted in development defects and abortion. So, I would say the answer to the question lay in whether kandras can imitate human antigens. Sure, they can change a muscle cell into a brain cell, but can they change the recognition proteins on that cell membrane? if they do, how can they avoid having autoimmune reactions? if they cannot do, then kandra organs would have rejection problems like any other transplanted organ. But hey, better than nothing, it could still keep you going for several years, and I think a skilled kandra may be able to supply a few dozen organs per day. Certainly seems like a useful application for their powers. But do kandra really change muscle tissue into any othe tissue? I thought kandra are just a bunch of muscles and... and... Okay. How is it that mistwraiths are the same as kandra, biologically speaking, but they only start to think after receiving spikes? (I know about Cognitive block. So what, mistwraiths are basically braindead?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 So, I would say the answer to the question lay in whether kandras can imitate human antigens. Sure, they can change a muscle cell into a brain cell, but can they change the recognition proteins on that cell membrane? if they do, how can they avoid having autoimmune reactions? It is possible the kandra shapeshifting is even more supernatural than we think, like they were also soulcasting their flesh into the right kind of tissues instead of simply shifting their muscles and nervous tissue around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 25, 2016 Report Share Posted January 25, 2016 It is possible the kandra shapeshifting is even more supernatural than we think, like they were also soulcasting their flesh into the right kind of tissues instead of simply shifting their muscles and nervous tissue around. It is, of course, fully possible. As a rule of thumb, when a reasonable scientific explanation is available, I tend to assume that magic is not at work, but of course that is only a working hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 25, 2016 Report Share Posted January 25, 2016 It is, of course, fully possible. As a rule of thumb, when a reasonable scientific explanation is available, I tend to assume that magic is not at work, but of course that is only a working hypothesis.The problem is that magic is at work, otherwise kandra wouldn't exist. The way I understand it, the changes the feruchemists who were transformed suffered were as intense on the spiritual and cognitive aspects as in the physical one.Plus, while it may be theoretically possible that kandra can makes their tissues macroscopically identical to anything from a human eye to a brain, to do so would require changing their flesh down to the celular level. And doing so without magic hosts many more potential problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 25, 2016 Report Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Plus, while it may be theoretically possible that kandra can makes their tissues macroscopically identical to anything from a human eye to a brain, to do so would require changing their flesh down to the celular level. And doing so without magic hosts many more potential problems.Well, I think it would be possible to have cells capable of changing their properties; they would have to revert back to indifferentiated staminal cells and then differentiate again to something new. Problem with it is, it would take hours, or possibly days; biochemistry is fast and efficient, but even it has limits. And second, it would take a lot of energy to disassemble most of the cell's proteins and build new proteins in its place. Which is probably the reason nature didn't use that mechanism. So, kandras are not physically possible without magic, but they would be if their transformation was slower, so it is within the limit of "scientifically possible with some artistic licence" Edited January 25, 2016 by king of nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 25, 2016 Report Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Well, I think it would be possible to have cells capable of changing their properties; they would have to revert back to indifferentiated staminal cells and then differentiate again to something new. Problem with it is, it would take hours, or possibly days; biochemistry is fast and efficient, but even it has limits. And second, it would take a lot of energy to disassemble most of the cell's proteins and build new proteins in its place. Which is probably the reason nature didn't use that mechanism.Yes, those are the problems I was talking about. Reverting the differentiation of mature cells, breaking down and reabsorving things like fibers, large proteins and fluids and moving it all around in a few seconds notice without great loss of energy?Biology can do freaky things, but Realmatic shenigans seem like something that would work better in this regard. The biggest problem is that the way I see it, there would need to be a greater conection between physical and cognitive aspects for this kind of transmutative shapeshifting to work, and kandra aren't supposed to be more attuned to the Cognitive Realm than humans or parshendi, are they? I know mistwraiths aren't. Edited January 25, 2016 by DreamEternal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 king of nowhere, I have hidden your post as material from Bands is NOT to be discussed (even in spoiler tags) outside the spoiler forum as per the current spoiler policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I just had a thought from the part where people were talking about Wayne talking to his leg. If a bunch of kandra got together and cooperated, they might be able to get four kandra into one set of clothes. Doesn't seem like a benefit? What if the kandra you're fighting throws its arm at you, which turns into a blob and then eats you? I know kandra have a policy about eating living humans, but kandra become a lot more cool when you use them as foot soldiers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I just had a thought from the part where people were talking about Wayne talking to his leg. If a bunch of kandra got together and cooperated, they might be able to get four kandra into one set of clothes. Doesn't seem like a benefit? What if the kandra you're fighting throws its arm at you, which turns into a blob and then eats you? I know kandra have a policy about eating living humans, but kandra become a lot more cool when you use them as foot soldiers. Kind of like babushka dolls. They just keep coming. And that's an interesting thought. Can kandra eat living humans? I guess they can, because I can't think of a reason why they couldn't. And even a Thug couldn't keep fighting when there's this slime dissolving his leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinnacle-Ferring Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 While reading this I thought of an interesting story concept. Say in the far future of Scadrial kandra and humans coexist peacefully. There is a kandra-human couple, but the human needs an organ transplant and they can't find a donor. So the kandra sacrifices their life in order to become the organ that the human needs. It's a bit of a strange story, but I think it has dramatic potential. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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