Investiture bestowed sentience

[Voidus]

In the Mistborn threads someone posed the question of why the Atium cache never became sentient despite being a large piece of Investiture without a governing mind, I was about to say it was for the same reason that Elantris isn't sentient but then I realized that we don't actually know that.

Certainly the city probably has a cognitive aspect much like the almighty Stick does, but it is also a huge repository of Investiture, probably on par at least with Nightblood, couldn't it have similarly gained sentience? As an Aon it has something quite akin to a command as well, we're not entirely sure what exactly Aon Rao does, but the best translation we have is 'spirit' something that could potentially be conceived as being a sentient force of some kind.

Just some random musings I had, anyone have any thoughts?

[Moogle]

Funnily enough, I was actually going to make a big theory thread on Splinters and the need for focuses at their core for sentience. I'm still working on that one though...

 

On the atium pit question specifically, we have a WoB on this:

 

Viper
Ok. The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way Atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson
It's similar. The pits are an area where there's like a leak from the spiritual realm into the physical. That's what happens there.
(source)

 

So the question should be less "why is atium not sentient when other Investiture is?" and more "why is atium special and gemhearts not?".

 

Anyways, my speculation on atium not being sentient is that it seems to be due to a lack of presence of the Cognitive - you get Spiritual energy leaking into the Physical without touching the Cognitive.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Moogle

[iBambam]

I think the biggest difference between Nightblood being sentient versus the Atium cache or Elantris being sentient is that it didn't just receive an enormous amount of investiture, but also a very specific command, in a system where commands are given in awakening.

I think while Elantris has a cognitive presence, and investiture, it's not guided by anything, preventing sentience. Or, you could argue that it is sentient, but only through the Elantrians themselves. Meaning that the city is gaining sentience directly from the Elantrians using the Aon Dor.

Or, it could be argued again that since the investiture chooses who becomes an Elantrian, it is sentient.

As far as the Atium goes, I think it doesn't become sentient because, while there is a lot of investiture there, it's not in one massive geode, but many small ones. Also, the fact that the investiture doesn't pass through the cognitive realm probably has something to do with it. Unlike the gemhearts that are infused with spren (I may be wrong here, it's been a while since I've read SA) which come directly from the cognitive realm and manifest as the giant beasts in the physical.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

On the Atium, I'd say that the individual beads just aren't significant enough amounts of investiture to be gain sentience. if they were larger, then maybe. 

 

How do we know that Elantris is Invested? It is a focus for the power of the Dor itself being an Aon, and there are many such smaller foci in the city with different Aon's drawn everywhere, but does the city itself actually retain any of that investiture? 

 

Even then though, the only investiture that we've seen that is truly sentient are Splinters, and we have a confirmed WoB that Atium is NOT a splinter of Ruin. As iBambam said too, I think it's the intent that makes the sentience and lack of other overriding consciousness. Ruin still controlled his intent and all his little bits too (since the beads weren't splintered off his power). 

 

As for the Gemhearts, they are just gems that grow inside of the greatshells. Until they are invested by the High Storms that is, and then they become a great repository for stormlight. In which per WoB:

 

Alterodent: With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

A: In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Q: Would it actually give off light?

A: Ooh... Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Q: No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different

A: Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a lightbulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.
(source)

 

Is very similar state to the Atium. it is a leak of the Spiritual that is captured in another medium for a while. Gems storing stormlight vs. power stored as metal. 

[iBambam]

That's an interesting fight for sure. It would definitely make sense that they would be similar. I think that also reinforces the stance that large amounts of investiture don't necessarily mean sentience

[Lazarus52980]

If "large amounts of investure means sentience" would a logical progression from that mean that investure itself is sentient?

[Yata]

So the question should be less "why is atium not sentient when other Investiture is?" and more "why is atium special and gemhearts not?".

 

Anyways, my speculation on atium not being sentient is that it seems to be due to a lack of presence of the Cognitive - you get Spiritual energy leaking into the Physical without touching the Cognitive.

Yeah, I know it, this days my answers to every question is "Adonalsium" .... But follow me for a minute 

<Speculative mode on:

Atium isn't special at all, and is exactly the same thing of the Roshar's gemstone.

They are both "matter" that came to existence from leaked Investiture.

But Where Does this leaked investiture came from ? Both from Sealed away Investiture's repository (without any better word) one of Ruin (the Pits) and the other from Adonasium (I know that you were waiting it XD), maybe Roshar at all is a "leaking spot" for this Repository.

After this long assumption we may see that Atium isn't special at all (well just a bit), is just a Ruin's matter as a standard rock is a Adonalsium's rock (therefore an Adonalsium's Gemstone is... a standard gemstone).

 

Speculative mode off>

Of course this whole theory of mine may works only if the Stormlight is Adonalsium's Investiture and not of Honor & Cultivation.

 

Now you may begin to dismantle this idea of mine 

 

PS: Sazed himself said that the difference between the Atium and a rock, is  only that the Atium is made by Ruin's Investiture alone.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Yata

[Voidus]

If "large amounts of investure means sentience" would a logical progression from that mean that investure itself is sentient?

Well the Dor itself is probably the closest thing to pure Investiture in a large enough source which is undirected. Which brings up another question, has the Dor gained sentience? My instinct on that would be that it hasn't due to all the WoB on it.

 

 

I think the biggest difference between Nightblood being sentient versus the Atium cache or Elantris being sentient is that it didn't just receive an enormous amount of investiture, but also a very specific command, in a system where commands are given in awakening.

I think while Elantris has a cognitive presence, and investiture, it's not guided by anything, preventing sentience. Or, you could argue that it is sentient, but only through the Elantrians themselves. Meaning that the city is gaining sentience directly from the Elantrians using the Aon Dor.

Or, it could be argued again that since the investiture chooses who becomes an Elantrian, it is sentient.

As far as the Atium goes, I think it doesn't become sentient because, while there is a lot of investiture there, it's not in one massive geode, but many small ones. Also, the fact that the investiture doesn't pass through the cognitive realm probably has something to do with it. Unlike the gemhearts that are infused with spren (I may be wrong here, it's been a while since I've read SA) which come directly from the cognitive realm and manifest as the giant beasts in the physical.

Well that was one of my thoughts but then if you think about it an Aon is essentially the same thing as a Command, just the Selish variant of it.

[Master_Moridin]

Well the Dor itself is probably the closest thing to pure Investiture in a large enough source which is undirected. Which brings up another question, has the Dor gained sentience? My instinct on that would be that it hasn't due to all the WoB on it.

 

 

Well that was one of my thoughts but then if you think about it an Aon is essentially the same thing as a Command, just the Selish variant of it.

 

Aren't Aons much closer to the metals used in Allomancy though?  Not a driving directive, but just something that shapes and filters power into a new form.

[iBambam]

Well that was one of my thoughts but then if you think about it an Aon is essentially the same thing as a Command, just the Selish variant of it.

True, but I feel that there is a big difference between using breath to literally breathe life into something with awakening, and using an Aon to, say, heal someone. Because in the case of awakening, you are literally giving something a simple kind of sentience. While Aons, to my knowledge, do not.

[Brgst13]

I think the fundamental difference between atium and Nightblood is that Nightblood received its investiture simultaneously with its sentience.  In fact, based what we know about the creation of Scadrial, humans received their innate investiture at the same time as their sentience as well.  Atium does not receive sentience when it is created.  

 

In fact, is it possible that the requirement for sentience is an infusion of Investiture that touches all 3 realms?  This could explain how atium is not sentient, since it bypasses cognitive.  This would also explain why gems on Roshar are not sentient.

[iBambam]

I would say that it is absolutely necessary for investiture to come from all three realms for sentience to exist. It has to be a combination, I think that you'd have your physical shape from the physical, intelligence from the cognitive, and morality from spiritual(?). All of these combine to make you who you are, and bestowing sentience.

[Moogle]

I would say that it is absolutely necessary for investiture to come from all three realms for sentience to exist. It has to be a combination, I think that you'd have your physical shape from the physical, intelligence from the cognitive, and morality from spiritual(?). All of these combine to make you who you are, and bestowing sentience.

 

How would you propose spren involve the Physical?

[Oversleep]

How would you propose spren involve the Physical?

Well, we've seen Syl interact with things Physically, Pattern did open some locks, Wyndle have wobbled the roll. All of that is evidence of already bonded (aka already pulled stronger into Physical than average) spren; we don't know if lesser spren could also interact with things and of course there are also spren not leaving Shadesmar...

[Master_Moridin]

While my personal theory is that consciousness/subject experience is a result of the interaction between the Spiritual and Physical, spren always seemed like an obvious exception to any theory like that.

 

I mean, they're living Cognitive entities.  They're made of thought-stuff.

[Stormgate]

I have been working on a theory that the process of creating a Splinter takes a Shard's Investiture out of its normal realm--most of a Shard's Investiture is in the Spiritual Realm--and puts it into the Cognitive Realm. This created the Aons, Skaze, and the emotionspren and naturespren (Honor and Cultivation). After a Shard's consciousness is Splintered in such a manner, there is a considerable amount of power remaining, which has already been Invested into one of the other Realms. This created the Dor. The highstorms were occurring before Honor Splintered, and likely provided an outlet for the power, especially with the Stormfather directing it.

This is not directly supported by anything I can think of. It makes sense to me, though.

[Brgst13]

Well, we've seen Syl interact with things Physically, Pattern did open some locks, Wyndle have wobbled the roll. All of that is evidence of already bonded (aka already pulled stronger into Physical than average) spren; we don't know if lesser spren could also interact with things and of course there are also spren not leaving Shadesmar...

We know that without the bond, spree cannot affect the physical realm very much, if at all. Also, Syl tells Kala din that if he dies, she goes "stupid". This suggests that sentient spree gain this sentience from the bond, and the bondholder's Physical realm manifestation.

[natc]

And yet they apparently have fully developed politics in the cognitive and appear to be prearranging which spren gets sent to who (as Wyndle suggests).

They're definitely sentient prior to gaining physical presence.

[iBambam]

How would you propose spren involve the Physical?

I think the fact that spren can manifest in the physical is proof that they have some investiture from the physical realm, but they're main source comes from the cognitive and spiritual realms.

[Pathfinder]

Not trying to prove or disprove anything, this is a genuine question which if anyone could answer for me I would appreciate. If spren cannot affect the physical without a bond, then how do wind spren play pranks on people by making things stick? Is that not considered acting on the physical? If so why? So I can understand the realms better.

[Yata]

Not trying to prove or disprove anything, this is a genuine question which if anyone could answer for me I would appreciate. If spren cannot affect the physical without a bond, then how do wind spren play pranks on people by making things stick? Is that not considered acting on the physical? If so why? So I can understand the realms better.

In my own opinion,  the wind spren didn't make things stick, is just superstition. Or the conclusion of someone who watch a mindless Honorspren (like happen to Kal with Syl).

[Pathfinder]

In my own opinion,  the wind spren didn't make things stick, is just superstition. Or the conclusion of someone who watch a mindless Honorspren (like happen to Kal with Syl).

But in WoR, page 515 in my kindle edition, Shallan notices windspren pranking a merchant. Here is the quote "They passed a merchant cursing as a windspren darted through his enclosure, making objects stick together."

[Yata]

But in WoR, page 515 in my kindle edition, Shallan notices windspren pranking a merchant. Here is the quote "They passed a merchant cursing as a windspren darted through his enclosure, making objects stick together."

Well, I was wrong after all :S

[iBambam]

I think when he says they can't affect the physical without a bond, I think it's meant in kind of a drastic way, such as being a weapon for a radiant. I think the fact that they can manifest in the physical means that they can subtly manipulate things, such as what wind spren do.

That's just my speculation though, I don't really know for sure tbh.

[Confused]

@Pathfinder, Physical Realm power is proportionate to the Cognitive Realm mind that wields it. “Sentient” spren can exercise a “sentient” amount of power – affecting a merchant’s wares or tripping Kaladin, etc.

 

Here’s what I said about this on another thread:

 

“In my…post on how spren become sapient, I posit that every Radiantspren other than the Stormfather began its Physical Realm existence as merely a sentient ‘natural phenomenon’ spren from Cultivation: windspren, creationspren, flamespren, etc. That amount of investiture that confers sapience remains in the Cognitive Realm, ‘carried’ by the ‘escort’ sentient spren. When the sentient spren finds a suitable host, the cognitive investiture it carries bonds with the KR’s own mind, enabling the KR to use the spren’s cognitive investiture to direct magical effects. Thus, Syl remains a mischievous windspren in the Physical Realm, though now she is bonded with Kaladin and has the greater mental capacity of sapience to understand and execute Kaladin’s commands.”

 

Does that help or make things hopelessly Confusing? (I’m good at that.) The cited post may or may not clarify things for you.