The Shattering of a Shard

[Confused]

Moogle, Sazed himself highlights the difference between the mind that directs the power and the personality of the person who becomes the Shard.

 

“These two minds [Ruin and Preservation] were, of course, independent of the raw force of their powers. Actually, I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place – but I believe they were not there originally.”

 

HoA, Epigraph to Chapter 55 (emphasis added).

 

You may have read my post on what I think happened at the Shattering. (No, not the post where I “speculate” Adonalsium was a dead dragon dissected by the people who became Shards; they inadvertently dropped Adonalisum’s gemheart and shattered it.) The serious Shattering post analyzes other passages to further confirm this important distinction between “mind” and personality.

 

That's why my point about the word “intent” isn't completely irrelevant or semantic. I truly don't care what word is used, but people keep ascribing personality traits to the Shards. Honor should BEHAVE "honorably" and Odium should BEHAVE "hatefully." NO, NO, NO!!! The concept applies to POWER EXERCISE ONLY. If we'd all remember that, then we'd all be better off regardless of our personal word choice.

 

I didn't realize the Vorins fabricated the KR chart. But knowing that now doesn't change my view. I'm guessing the Vorins did their typical thing and recharacterized an earlier chart to their liking. What possible reason would there be for Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers to represent animals and plants?

 

Specific Surges have meaning only in the context of a Shard’s mandate. I’ve advocated that every Shard can exercise the same powers of creation, altered only by the interaction of their mandate with the influences of the local Shardworld. Honor's "bonding" mandate is synonymous with Bondsmiths. Cultivation's "time" mandate is best exemplified by Truthwatchers. Why Truthwatchers?

 

Because one who cultivates anything visualizes what they want the cultivated object to look like in the future. They see into the future and turn the present into that future. Shallan “transforms” her guards from what they are into what they could be. Lift's seeds grow instantly. Healing involves the immediate regrowth of body tissue. Jasnah transports herself instantly. The salient feature of each of these Surges is the compression of time to achieve a visualized future effect – the Truthwatcher power thus underlies all of the Cultivation-based Surges.

 

Compare the more “Honor-y” upper orders of the chart, which affect bonds more than time. Kaladin is obvious. Skybreakers implement the bonds of the law. Stonewards and Releasers assemble and disassemble molecular bonds.

 

Why do we care? I agree that the Cognitive Shadow issue is misleading. On reflection, it's only relevance may be the visions the Stormfather shows Gavilar and Dalinar. Yata has persuaded me that only humans (or other sentient mortals) can have ghosts.

 

BUT the investiture that comprises the Stormfather remains significant. In my overarching theory of SLA, he helps maintain the investiture balance necessary to prevent Desolations. His Highstorms sweep investiture to the mountains east of Shinovar, where IMO the Honorblades consume it, reconstitute it as Stormlight, and prevent the investiture’s passage into Shinovar. All of that is a “bond-related” function. And though the Stormfather seems to have no discretion in the matter, he accepts the KR oaths. Is he still the Rider of Storms? Maybe, at some vestigial level – the original non-magical Highstorms. He did nothing to block the stormspren from invading Eshonai, though, and admitted his impotence to help her. Finally, he is DALINAR’S spren – the Bondsmith’s spren. Why give Dalinar a “godspren” who isn’t comprised of the god’s investiture?

 

I do think the presence of the Stormfather at Honor’s death will prove significant for a variety of reasons, some of which I've stated in earlier posts. In addition, I’ve held a suspicion that the Stormfather might even in some way have been complicit in that death. We’ll see…

 

One more thing about mandate-meshing: In my long-languishing post on how spren become sapient, I posit that every Radiantspren other than the Stormfather began its Physical Realm existence as merely a sentient “natural phenomenon” spren from Cultivation: windspren, creationspren, flamespren, etc. That amount of investiture that confers sapience remains in the Cognitive Realm, “carried” by the “escort” sentient spren. When the sentient spren finds a suitable host, the cognitive investiture it carries bonds with the KR’s own mind, enabling the KR to use the spren’s cognitive investiture to direct magical effects. Thus, Syl remains a mischievous windspren in the Physical Realm, though now she is bonded with Kaladin and has the greater mental capacity of sapience to understand and execute Kaladin’s commands.

 

IOW, every Radiantspren other than the Stormfather has something of Cultivation in them, in varying degrees. But EVERY Radiantspren has something of Honor in them, because that is necessary to form the bond between the KR and their spren. In the Truthwatcher’s case, that bond may be reduced simply to what’s necessary to attach Glys to Renarin, and Glys is otherwise pure Cultivation investiture.

 

Anyone out there still following this thread?

[Yata he/him]

I am still following this thread, but without any new informations I suppose we are unable to speculate more.

[Moogle]

That's why my point about the word “intent” isn't completely irrelevant or semantic. I truly don't care what word is used, but people keep ascribing personality traits to the Shards. Honor should BEHAVE "honorably" and Odium should BEHAVE "hatefully." NO, NO, NO!!! The concept applies to POWER EXERCISE ONLY. If we'd all remember that, then we'd all be better off regardless of our personal word choice.

 

This is a very fair point. I was too hasty in labeling this part of the discussion "semantics" and rushing on to what I thought was the root of the discussion.

 

As Harmony puts it (I believe we're past the SoS spoilers period):

 

Waxillium, I— the personality you speak to— agree with your indignation. But the powers that I am, the essence of my self, cannot allow me to take sides.

 

I disagree slightly with your view here. Holding a Shard perverts your own personality. It is not purely a mandate restricting how you use your powers - it is a sort of Intent that becomes your own over time. By WoB, it is a matter of willpower. Your desire to do something that the Shard does not wish to do requires a contest of willpower.

 

So I would say that Shards do have an actual desire to do particular things. Ruin (separate from the personality holding it) wishes to destroy, Preservation wishes to put things into stasis. The nature of the powers pushes their wielders to do things. It is not 100% correct to say that Odium should behave hatefully, but it's not very inaccurate - Odium desires to behave hatefully, demands that Rayse do so, though Rayse has the chance to filter/resist this desire. Indeed, a Shardholder can always overpower their Shard, for all that it becomes more difficult as the centuries pass.

 

Of course, this speaking of Shardholders as separate from their Shards seems to me to be wrong. Rayse is Odium. The essence of hatred is his soul, as Sazed seems to imply. So it is almost tautological to say that Odium is hateful - that is an impulse anyone who picks the Shard up is going to have. Rayse does not have to act hatefully because hatred is not his entire personality, but it forms a great part of it.

 

Put another way, it seems the Spiritual in some regard deals with desires or motivations... intent. A Shard bereft of a holder is all Spiritual, lacking a mind (Cognitive component). (See: Kurk's Motivation, Execution, Consequence.)

 

Of course, we don't disagree with too much here, as I understand it. Your own post on this says many of the same things. I am merely arguing in favor of the word Intent over mandate, as I feel mandate does not quite grasp the nature of the perversion of a Shardholder's personality.

 

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I didn't realize the Vorins fabricated the KR chart. But knowing that now doesn't change my view. I'm guessing the Vorins did their typical thing and recharacterized an earlier chart to their liking. What possible reason would there be for Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers to represent animals and plants?

 

For reference, the WoBs may be illuminating:

• Aspects of the chart are cultural. (This one took me a good half hour to find. I am glad because it is probably the WoB I refer to the most without ever being able to find. For later google searches, please ignore, LINES CONNECTING PHILOSOPHICAL PHILOSOPHERS CONNECTION ZEPHYR BLOOD AIR ORDERS SURGEBINDING CHART.)
• Philosophers in ancient days created the tables. I was wrong to call them Vorin; my bad, I posted that without thinking it through too carefully. That said, the "Voidbinding"(???) chart has a woman with a safehand on the borders, so I don't know how off I am...
• Body focuses are artificial constructs.

I don't agree that there was necessarily an earlier chart. The shape of the chart as a circle arises naturally due to the pairing of Surges. The Double Eye of the Almighty relating to plants/animals could arise naturally from the gems linked to the Bondsmiths/Truthwatchers creating meat and plant matter in Soulcasting respectively.

 

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Specific Surges have meaning only in the context of a Shard’s mandate. I’ve advocated that every Shard can exercise the same powers of creation, altered only by the interaction of their mandate with the influences of the local Shardworld. Honor's "bonding" mandate is synonymous with Bondsmiths. Cultivation's "time" mandate is best exemplified by Truthwatchers. Why Truthwatchers?

 

Your points here - in particular, the nature of time as relating to Elsecalling, bonds as relating to Cohesion/Tension, are interesting. They seem like a stretch in some places. Jasnah teleporting herself does not seem to me to have a natural relation to time whatsoever. The fact that it is instant seems irrelevant to the power. The quickened growth of plants/healing of wounds seems like a much more natural link to time, of course - but then, the Surge is properly called Progression.

 

Still, it's something to think more on. I can't contribute much more to this aspect of the discussion.

 

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And though the Stormfather seems to have no discretion in the matter, he accepts the KR oaths. Is he still the Rider of Storms? Maybe, at some vestigial level – the original non-magical Highstorms. He did nothing to block the stormspren from invading Eshonai, though, and admitted his impotence to help her. Finally, he is DALINAR’S spren – the Bondsmith’s spren. Why give Dalinar a “godspren” who isn’t comprised of the god’s investiture?

 

You're right to bring this up as an issue. I think it's a very strong argument against my point. That said, we have a WoB relating to this:

 

EHyde

So I'm just gonna run with that right now. Is Surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium ala Feruchemy being in some senses being not directly of Ruin or Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor and Cultivation is what you mean? Um, there are spren of all three shards. And those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

(source)

 

Specifically, magic has been set up on Roshar that the spren can work within. (I may be stretching this WoB further than it should be.) The reason for this, I speculate, is because of how all spren on Roshar are living Surges. I am going to make a post talking about how sapient Splinters arise when I get the chance, but this point seems central to the discussion: the Surges on Roshar act in the same way that metals do on Scadrial.

 

Spren, as living Surges, are seemingly what allows Radiants to do Surgebinding. Though their spren, Radiants can touch and manipulate the Surges. Surgebinding in particular is of Honor and Cultivation, but there are 3 systems which all deal with the Surges.

 

The Surges are Shard-agnostic. Steel and the other base metals are not of Preservation or Ruin. Syl is of Honor (and probably Cultivation), but I suspect that what is more important is that she is of Adhesion and Gravity.

 

Another spren - even one of Odium - could presumably also be of Adhesion and Gravity. They wouldn't be an honorspren, but it seems not unlikely to me that such a spren could provide Surgebinding in a similar way, for all that Surgebinding is not of Odium. And similarly, I suspect that our mysterious non-Surgebinding non-Voidbinding fabrial-related system could use a captured Syl to provide access to the necessary Surges.

 

I'm not 100% on this of course. But the idea of Syl as being a conduit to the Surges, usable by any of the three systems, much like a metal on Scadrial, has great appeal to me.

 

Which is, to bring things back to the Stormfather, why I don't believe the Stormfather needs to be wholly of Honor. As a highstormspren(?), he already encapsulates Adhesion (Pressure) and Tension. (The Surges would have existed before Adonalsium came to be, I believe.)

 

Even if my theory isn't correct about a two-Surge spren Splinter of Odium, whatever part of the Stormfather has Honor's Investiture in him should be enough to grant power to Dalinar. The fact that the Stormfather is a representation of two Surges is the important bit, not the concentration of Honor/Cultivation's Investiture in his essence (though perhaps some essence of either Cultivation or Honor is required to use the Surges in the Stormfather in the necessary way).

 

---

 

EDIT: I made this point in my next post, but the Rider of Storms was of Adonalsium in all likelyhood - so he is already "of" Honor and Cultivation, which would allow him to grant Surgebinding even before he became Honor's Cognitive Shadow/absorbed his Investiture.

 

I would also like to point out that, thinking on things more, that I think a spren being of Honor/Cultivation is necessary for the spren to grant Surgebinding. Not just anybody can swallow metals and use Allomancy - Preservation's Investiture is required. Of course, Hemalurgy is usable by anyone... *sigh*.

 

---

 

Somewhat tangential: while we're on (at least, we were earlier) semantics, I think the term "godspren" is actively misleading. I've probably ranted in it in over a dozen threads at this point, but I think this post (and the follow-up one two posts down) captures the thrust of my argument for why I think the word should never be used. I care a great deal about using words properly, and "godspren" is, in my opinion, an abuse of the -spren naming convention.

 

Also relevant, Brandon almost says the Stormfather absorbed what is presumably Honor's power in this WoB:

Q [17:15]: Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

A: Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

(source)

 

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Note to self: contrary to your expectations every time, posts on 17th Shard involving complex theories are never short.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

@Moogle: Your explaination explanation about Spren, Surge and Roshar's Magic Systems is very elegant and I like it.

But this doesn't explain how the Rider of the Storm was a Bondsmith's Spren before to inherit Tanavast's Ghost (and probably some of his Investiture).

 

EDIT: It just come to my mind that Honor may be give a bit of his power to the Rider of the Storm to make him "Surgebinding-compatible"....my bad 

Edited January 15, 2016 by Yata

[Moogle]

@Moogle: Your explaination explanation about Spren, Surge and Roshar's Magic Systems is very elegant and I like it.

But this doesn't explain how the Rider of the Storm was a Bondsmith's Spren before to inherit Tanavast's Ghost (and probably some of his Investiture).

 

EDIT: It just come to my mind that Honor may be give a bit of his power to the Rider of the Storm to make him "Surgebinding-compatible"....my bad 

 

A few ideas here:

• Another possibility is that Stormlight is of Honor (though I don't know how likely this is) and the Stormfather, being associated with the highstorm, naturally absorbed Honor's Investiture when the highstorm became Invested.
  • Of course, I'm still holding out on the theory that Stormlight is of Adonalsium. The fact that the highstorm and everstorm had a violent reaction when touching argues against this, however.
  • Perhaps the highstorms had "Stormlight" before Honor Invested Roshar, and like the Stormfather the highstorms had Honor's Investiture mixed in with what was already there.
• Perhaps humanity's association between the highstorms and the Almighty actually altered the Rider of Storm's nature and allowed him in some way to absorb some of Honor's power. (For example, I am suspicious that a spren is born when Investiture from the Spiritual naturally leaks into the Cognitive and encounters a raw idea. In the case of the Stormfather, after he's associated with Honor, the next time he encounters some of Honor's raw essence he might take it in.)

As noted, I don't think a spren necessarily has to be of Honor or Cultivation in order to grant Surgebinding. Indeed, the ability of spren to grant such to their bondees derived from their ability to reverse engineer the Honorblades - it's not a "natural" thing, from what I understand. I may be wrong on that. Something of Honor/Cultivation probably has an intuitive understanding of the system (to some degree - the spren didn't know what they could do before seeing the Honorblades), like the Lord Ruler gained an intuitive understanding with the Well.

 

And of course, Adonalsium was of all sixteen Intents at once. So the Rider of Storms would have always been "of" Honor/Cultivation and thus would have the ability to grant Surgebinding no matter what flavor of my theory you subscribe to. I think this is self-evident, but WoBs like this support this:

 

Q: How many shards have ever been on Roshar?

A:*Brandon repeats question."

Okay, Oh boy, Um...I... Um....ehh...um

At one point, all of them were on Roshar, which is technically true.

 

Q: How many shards have invested their power on Roshar?

A: Technically, all of them did.

(source)

Edited January 15, 2016 by Moogle

[Confused]

@YATA, doing my best to think up new stuff. I’ll try harder…and I’ll get back to you below.

 

@MOOGLE:

 

Mind and Personality

 

I think we agree on the relationship between mind and personality. You cite a great quote from Sazed I’d missed. As I understand the various WoBs on this subject, a mandate does “pervert” the Shard’s “personality” over time, but only in the sense that the Shard becomes increasingly unable to act contrary to its mandate. That’s what Sazed is saying, and it is consistent with the WoB. But that doesn’t mean the Shards will behave with honor or hatred in their personal decisions.  IMO Honor would willingly create an Oathpact that results in Herald torture to achieve his purposes whether or not it is “honorable” to do so. That, to me, doesn’t involve the exercise of power as much as a moral choice not subject to mandate compulsion. The line, of course, is drawn on the head of a pin…

 

“Desires and Motivations”

 

Regarding Kurk’s cited article and his and your proposition that the Spiritual Realm is about “desires and motivations”: you know I have a much different view of Realmatic theory than you two (and most others). Kurk is always a fascinating, well-researched, and well-considered read, but I feel everyone puts too much emphasis on Spiritual Realm investiture.

 

Because Spiritual Realm investiture is compositionally everywhere the same (WoB), the only thing about it that can change is the FORM it takes. Spiritual Realm investiture IOW is like DNA; each gene is made of the same substance, but each gene is different from the others in how it expresses itself. Is this investiture gob the soul of a human or the essence of a chair? These things are somehow coded to be different even though they are made of compositionally identical substances. That differs from the investiture in both the Cognitive and Physical Realms.

 

I tend to see the Spiritual Realm as passive – “true investiture” yes, but not self-actuating the way Kurk and you see it. It’s more like a computer network with lots of nodes, awaiting Cognitive inputs. (Mixing my metaphors again…) To me, the “motivation” for Spiritual Realm actions are the Cognitive commands the minds of Shards and magicians deliver to the Spiritual Realm for execution.

 

The only argument to the contrary arises in the context of unconscious healing. Loosely-worded WoB suggests that a “Spiritual impulse” emanating from the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive causes the body’s self-healing in accordance with its self-perception. I believe in a “Cognitive impulse” flowing to the Spiritual Realm that’s already been coded with the body’s self-perception and merely seeks execution from the Spiritual investiture. We continue to differ on that one.

 

Cultivation’s Mandate

 

My point about Cultivation’s “time” mandate is that all Cultivation-based Surges require visualization of a future result achieved by time compression. Jasnah’s Transportation Surge is an example. Compare Raoden’s use of the transportation Aon (which in my mind is the identical power of creation, filtered through Sel’s peculiarities). Raoden needed to learn the exact coordinates of his destination before he could proceed. Jasnah did not: visualization of a future result and its instantaneous execution.

 

“Spren Are Living Surges”

 

This is another loosely-worded WoB where even MISTER Sanderson acknowledges he didn’t answer the question. I understand him to say that spren are capable of using the Surges – which makes perfect sense because they consist entirely of investiture. Syl should be able to use the Surges her investiture empowers.

 

The “higher” spren the WoB refers to are the Radiantspren (and other spren consisting of the same or higher quantum of investiture). Windspren can use Adhesion, for example, but only in small and simple ways, since they are merely sentient. Sapient Syl, once bonded with Kaladin, can do much more than a sentient windspren. Mind and the power it exercises always exist in proportion.

 

Roshar Spren and Scadrial Metals Work Differently

 

They work differently because they are different substances: metals are “tuning” devices that channel Preservation’s investiture for use by an allomancer. Spren are investiture themselves. Spren allow KR to use the Surges precisely because the spren can use the Surges – the Nahel bond connects the mind of the KR to the mind of his or her spren. The KR commands, and the spren – Cognitive investiture – directs the execution of the command. Metals merely are conduits. An allomancer commands by consciously burning metals, drawing upon Preservation’s power; the metals are not “a little piece of God” themselves.

 

Are Surges “Shard Agnostic”?

 

Yes…and no. I absolutely agree that the powers of creation are everywhere identical in their basic form. But the interaction of mandates and Shardworlds changes the Cognitive and Physical investiture of each Shardworld. The result is that the powers are exercised differently Shardworld to Shardworld – with different Cognitive inputs and with different but related Physical outputs.

 

Where two or more Shards occupy the same Shardworld, the only differences in how power is exercised will be found in the Shards’ mandates; other aspects of the Shardworld are identical for each Shard. So…an Odium spren CAN presumably access the Adhesion and Gravity Surges. But the Cognitive means of accessing those powers would be different and the exercised power itself would come out differently. And for reasons set out below, I don’t think that power exercise would be considered “Surgebinding.”

 

Examples: Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, creates Midnight Essences. I believe this is a form of Lightweaving that takes material substance. Note also that Odium tends to use dead organisms – listeners whose remains have been moved IMO (the “mindless Unmade”) and greatshells (thunderclasts) – in his magic. Compare the Dakhor monks similar use of life to fuel their magic and Endowment’s resurrection of the Returned to implement whatever she wants to accomplish through them.

 

There is a substantial difference between how Honor and Cultivation perform magic and how Odium does. The KR exercise their powers through the Nahel bond with their spren. Honor binds. Odium IMO does not. The nature of Hatred is to be alone; it is a corrosive, divisive force. That’s why I believe Odium does not form bonds. His spren invade their hosts (the listeners, etc.), but do not bond with them. The spren “carry” Odium’s investiture into the host, but unlike Radiantspren, they do not BECOME PART of their host; they do not latch onto the host’s Spirit Web. That’s WHY an Odium spren cannot grant Surgebinding to its host, even though Odium’s investiture is capable of the same powers of creation; without a Nahel bond, these powers must be exercised through a different mechanism.

 

I do agree that a captured Syl, or any Radiantspren, can cause a fabrial to work properly. I wrote a post on that subject several months ago.

 

“Godspren”

 

Point taken. Agreed.

 

Stormfather “Absorbing” Honor’s Investiture

 

Great WoB!

 

*     *     *     *     *

 

BACK TO @YATA:

 

Stormfather as “Rider of Storms” and Bondsmith Spren

 

My timeline is, first Adonalsium “designed/imprinted” Roshar, then Honor and Cultivation arrived, and last, Odium. Humans IMO came after Odium and at his coercion.

 

WoB: the Highstorms were once strictly meteorological events. Speculation: they lacked investiture at the time. Further speculation: they became invested when Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar.

 

Once humans are on Roshar, they begin to personify the Stormfather as “the Almighty,” Honor’s alter ego. The personification process causes the Stormfather to become a spren of Honor invested with his investiture. (See my “Spiritual Realm IS Location-Based” and “Forced Splintering – Take 3” posts for my speculation on how Cognitive investiture changes with human thought.) As long as listeners still personify the Stormfather as the Rider of Storms, he remains that as well.

 

Because the Stormfather now exists as Honor’s spren (regardless of what else he may be) and contains his investiture, he is capable of bonding with a Bondsmith. After Honor’s murder, the Stormfather IMO absorbs most of Honor’s remaining investiture. WoB: there are more spren now than at that time. I believe the reason for that is the Stormfather’s shedding some of the investiture he “absorbed” from Honor. Since MISTER Sanderson says the Stormfather really is HONOR’s Cognitive Shadow (and not Tanavast’s, despite my earlier adoption of your point of view), I go back to my even earlier belief that the Stormfather’s absorption of Honor included the absorption of Honor’s Mind – his Cognitive Shadow – even though Honor’s body no longer existed.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

The only argument to the contrary arises in the context of unconscious healing. Loosely-worded WoB suggests that a “Spiritual impulse” emanating from the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive causes the body’s self-healing in accordance with its self-perception. I believe in a “Cognitive impulse” flowing to the Spiritual Realm that’s already been coded with the body’s self-perception and merely seeks execution from the Spiritual investiture. We continue to differ on that one.

 

On this point:  There's really nothing to differ over, as Brandon was pretty clear on how the soul affects the body normally (though he didn't touch on how Investiture healing changes this).

 

The bounce back is caused by the relationship between the three realms of the cosmere. What you're saying isn't terribly far off, but at the same time, ignores some underpinning fundamentals of how it all works.

In the cosmere, your soul is basically an idealized version of yourself--and is a constant force pushing your body to match it. Your perceptions are the filter through which this happens, however, and many of the magics can facilitate in interesting ways.